Zion
- Thread starter Nolieforlife
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Our oad players tend to stick around!!..there are plenty of oad types we've had that if they went to other bluebloods would've bolted for the draft even if they weren't ready!!
2006-2012 are what gave us 5 ACC Regular Season Titles, 2 ACC Titles, 5 Elite Eight Appearances, 2 Final Fours, and a National Championship. But sure, let's forget all of that for a second.
Most of us knew we needed at least one Elite big in 2017 and it was generally accepted by most fans here. But when we missed out on guys like Tilmon, Bamba, etc. Many were already changing their original narratives, claiming we'd be fine without them.
And I love how you pick LSU out of all the schools that land 5 * Players. Not Dook, who has seen a resurgence in their national presence and a Title to boot. Not Kentucky who lands droves of talent to the point that they have their foots in the corner of Elite talent year in and year out and a Title as well.
Or teams like Syracuse and Kansas who have made FFs with Freshmen at the helm.
Instead, you pick the 1 team that has probably landed 1 Top 5 recruit in the last decade or so. That's not realism. That's delusion.
Absolutely not
Well for starters, take the approach that allowed us to land a recruiting class like we did in 2016? In one of the thickest parts of the scandal?
Roy got major praise, even from critics, for changing his tactics in 2016, only to return to our "selective" tactics in 2017. And for those who love blaming the scandal, you would think logic dictates that you should do what gives you success. But I guess some of us don't like logic.
I'm confused as to what you're disagreeing with. Nothing I stated was my opinion.
Fact: You don't know that people won't give Roy credit because it hasn't happened yet.
Fact: We do here the same apologist responses each time something not positive occurs. ex: "Harrison Barnes" is an acceptable response for some every time we mention an elite recruit leaning to Dook.
Fact: There were multiple bad decision that kept us from landing Elite/OAD talent in the past. Not offering Trey Lyles. Not prioritizing Vonleh. And others.
Tell me which of these you think is wrong.
Not all the time does Elite =/= OAD.
There are players who put up okay or decent numbers and show glimpses of what they can be in their Freshman year and then blow up by their 2nd or 3rd year. I'd take those guys over a class of OADs any time. But we haven't been getting too many of either.
And unfortunately, opposing coaches will use that against us. If Bradley or Felton don't leave in 1 year, I can promise you that people like Capel or Miller will be trying to sell that against us.
I try to follow recruiting as close as possible but sometimes it's hard to keep up.... I know the numbers suggest 2016 class would be stronger then 2017 but not sure I see where Roy changed his tactics for 2016 besides he got better results with that Bradley and Woods chose UNC where some of the 2017 players in that range chose elsewhere(Wilkes, Tillmon). Are any of the 2016 players considered questionable decisions personal wise since you said went back to "selective" tactics in 2017??
I know that we aren't getting any of the top 10 types lately due to various reasons but I still hear/see that UNC offered... I'm not sure what else we can do if these players want to go elsewhere where they get extra benefits, promised PT or starting gigs, or have outside influences that push them to another school..
As for the 2017 class we won't know how that plays out for a year or two.. I have read some good things about Manley and Huffman and I do realize that they aren't in the top 100 but only time will tell what happens.
I know that we aren't getting any of the top 10 types lately due to various reasons but I still hear/see that UNC offered... I'm not sure what else we can do if these players want to go elsewhere where they get extra benefits, promised PT or starting gigs, or have outside influences that push them to another school..
As for the 2017 class we won't know how that plays out for a year or two.. I have read some good things about Manley and Huffman and I do realize that they aren't in the top 100 but only time will tell what happens.
Rose, I hear you and looking back at my post I should have written I'd like to see 2006-2012 recruiting standards too.
However, to think the recruiting downturn was just a matter of not making certain players a priority is far too simplistic and ignores the many factors that go into creating negativity with a target group (in this case, elite, top 10 talent)
And yes, there isn't just one reason for negative recruiting out there, there have been many since 2011 or so.
Fair enough too, the Ben Simmons example was me taking advantage of a bad situation, but it highlights the two edged sword that OAD's present.
Also, after posting I had a glance over the top 100 or so prospect list and Roy has not been 'selective' at all. He did, as everyone here wants him to, go after the big fish, players he had good reason to think he had a chance with. For reasons I don't know, and I doubt anyone really knows, they chose elsewhere. Roy shifted his attention to several big men in the 40-80 range and missed out there too.
So what does he do: Pack up and quit? Get down in the gutter to land a few top players? Change his coaching style and the ethos of the program to accommodate the egos of 17yr old kids who're only going to be around for a year? Or work at the problem by doing what he does best, signing the players he can and getting the results he can with those players?
I agree with you, I don't think a class of mostly 3-4* players is what any of us really want to see, but I don't understand how whining about it over and over again makes it any better. These are the guys who wanted to play for UNC, while the others didn't.
And hey, the class isn't all wrapped up yet, so whats wrong with holding out a little hope? After all, we're in the cheapest of cheap seats so it's not like we can do anything about it anyway.
Apologies to Dave for stealing his word count.
However, to think the recruiting downturn was just a matter of not making certain players a priority is far too simplistic and ignores the many factors that go into creating negativity with a target group (in this case, elite, top 10 talent)
And yes, there isn't just one reason for negative recruiting out there, there have been many since 2011 or so.
Fair enough too, the Ben Simmons example was me taking advantage of a bad situation, but it highlights the two edged sword that OAD's present.
Also, after posting I had a glance over the top 100 or so prospect list and Roy has not been 'selective' at all. He did, as everyone here wants him to, go after the big fish, players he had good reason to think he had a chance with. For reasons I don't know, and I doubt anyone really knows, they chose elsewhere. Roy shifted his attention to several big men in the 40-80 range and missed out there too.
So what does he do: Pack up and quit? Get down in the gutter to land a few top players? Change his coaching style and the ethos of the program to accommodate the egos of 17yr old kids who're only going to be around for a year? Or work at the problem by doing what he does best, signing the players he can and getting the results he can with those players?
I agree with you, I don't think a class of mostly 3-4* players is what any of us really want to see, but I don't understand how whining about it over and over again makes it any better. These are the guys who wanted to play for UNC, while the others didn't.
And hey, the class isn't all wrapped up yet, so whats wrong with holding out a little hope? After all, we're in the cheapest of cheap seats so it's not like we can do anything about it anyway.
Apologies to Dave for stealing his word count.
Roy was handing out offers like Candy in 2016. Any player that "grew up a UNC fan" or had UNC interest got one. About 7 guys in the top 11 were offered, and that's rare based on our track record. While some viewed it as "desparate", the results yielded a very good class, something that we should not have landed amidst a scandal. You can't argue with results.
In 2017, we went back to what we did in previous classes by not keeping our options as wide.
We spent countless time on uphill battles like Bamba and Carter (who many would have sworn on their mothers that they were interested in UNC) who were very clearly uninterested in UNC for quite some time. Instead of making in-roads with mid-level guys who we could have possibly stolen away, or guys with low offer lists.
We had a 5 * (or High 4 * by some accounts) PG show early interest in UNC, and kept us on his list for quite sometime. Instead we offered 2 PGs whom we didn't even make the final cut for.
That's why I'm not buying into this scandal BS anymore. We shouldn't have went from a Solid class in 2016 to a 3 * Brigade in 2017. No offense to our guys because they're Heels now, but I'm just not going to sugar coat it.
What concerns me the most about our recruiting is the amount of 5* guys from the state of North Carolina that we're missing out on.
Oz you're on point man. Especially on not seeing the point of whining. Great post.
You're right, it's too simplistic. Like you said though, those aren't the only factors. They're just one of quite a few. Being able to have 1 or 2 OAD guys to show as examples could have worked wonders for our recruiting. Not having those names we can go to in the league hurts us and you know that's every opposing coach's trump card.
Compared to 2016, he is selective. Every big Roy offered was either in the Top 20 or Below 100. Furthermore, every player we offered was either in the top 40 or Below 100. That's shocking, considering our sweet spot is usually guys ranked around 30-70. If we had landed 1 or 2 guys in the 40-80 range, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.
And for the record, I've personally never advocated for Roy to offer more guys in the top 10. Roy has said he likes a Mix of talent on his teams, from OADs to Multi-Year Guys to Projects, and I 100% support that. But 2017 does not display that philosophy.
The only reason I stated we need a top 20 guy is because we're losing 5 key players on our team next season as well as 2 starting bigs. Someone has to fill that role, and realistically, no one currently on board in 2017 can do that.
Dude, no one is saying Roy has to flat out turn over a new leaf.
All I'm trying to bring to light here is that Roy has did much better when he made slight adjustments to his strategies. There wasn't any rule breaking or back door payments or black magic he did to make Woods, Robinson, and Bradley sign in 2016. He simply made more offers and kept his options open. We nearly landed other guys like Azubuike and Markannen as well. All because Roy changed it up.
No one is telling him to give up. And please don't suggest that "Sky is falling" BS.
We've seen this time and time again. It's always "It ain't over till it's over" and "watch what they do not what they say'. But the results are always the same.
If Roy signs any of the elite trio we're currently trying to land, I'll be the first one to admit I was dead-wrong. But I also have enough sense not to keep betting all my money on Red when it's been nothing but Black
I think I've figured out the script now.
Freaking baffling...
- Define Unpositive post as "whining" or "overly-negative"
- Tell the person to "Relax" (Even if they're 100% Calm)
- Wait until most of the things detailed in the post happens
- Claim everything is fine and defer the person until the "next time" (i.e. Season, Recruiting Class, etc.)
- Repat Step 1 Until something good happens, then call out the negative poster for finally being wrong.
- Profit!
Freaking baffling...
Not gonna get into a back and forth rose because we are saying much of the same stuff.
You are right, or at least it seems Roy took a different tack this year.
If I was to guess id say it could relate back to the ncaa stuff. Maybe Roy figures the worst was behind the program and it was time to get after the Carters and Bambas.
Either way, it'll be interesting to see how he goes coaching the guys he's got.
You are right, or at least it seems Roy took a different tack this year.
If I was to guess id say it could relate back to the ncaa stuff. Maybe Roy figures the worst was behind the program and it was time to get after the Carters and Bambas.
Either way, it'll be interesting to see how he goes coaching the guys he's got.
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To be fair, the 2018 class is off to a great start... Very likely two 5* guys to lead things off. Number 4 might need some tweaking.
Recruiting is suffering, no doubt. I am still not waving the white flag on a few recruits here, but to each their own. What is Roy supposed to do? not field a basketball team? he needs to get players.OZ, I am very interested and looking forward to Roy proving his coaching excellence with these 3* recruits also. If he can big contribution from one of the 3-4* freshman (Manley, Huffman, Brooks) it will help with recruiting. He can walk into a big time recruits house and say hey I cant coach or produce OAD, then how did I get this 3* recruit to produce? i think that guy will be Manley.
Thank you Lord that many of you are not on my support team! Depressing bunch! Wouldn't hurt to actually see this bunch in Carolina Blue before being such a gloom and doom bunch. jmhho
Amen Mikey. And I am 100% convinced that Roy knows more about who he should and should not offer, regardless of rankings, than do ALL posters on this or any other board combined. When he doesn't offer guys some posters feel so certain he should have, or offers players some don't want - I am positive he has better reasons, information, and motivation for it than anyone on this or any other board.
The guy is a Hall Of Famer who just took a bunch of players many posters bitched and moaned about for several years to the championship game.
Not really when you go back and look at it. There have been like 9 5* recruits from NC since 2010 and we have landed 3 of them, including the top ranked NC players from 2013 and 2014. The issue with this has been very recent 2015/16/17.
A very far away view.
Recruiting has changed from 10 years ago. Either that or we have experienced a heck of a run with not many guys who fit the profile that have recruited in the past.
Roy seems to be getting in earlier on players that he wants. I view that as a positive.
I agree that he seemed to shotgun offers last year. Would love to able to ask him what he thought of opening the flood gates on offers and why he did not follow up this year with the same strategy.
I think that he is acknowledging that things have changed and he has to adjust. Feels like he is working through how to manage those changes and still retain what he believes to be important.
Maybe this has always been evolving and Roy's tactics have followed suit. Could be we are just more aware of it due to the investigation, lack of OAD's and a few critical misses.
Regardless, we have been putting a very high quality product on the floor through it all. Considering who we have today and the backcourt that is coming in, and don't see that changing. Might look different but it will still be very good.
I can't help but think that another strong year on the court coupled with a few great recruits coming in and finally having a decision with the NCAA is going to ease the hesitancy of recruits choosing to represent UNC.
Recruiting has changed from 10 years ago. Either that or we have experienced a heck of a run with not many guys who fit the profile that have recruited in the past.
Roy seems to be getting in earlier on players that he wants. I view that as a positive.
I agree that he seemed to shotgun offers last year. Would love to able to ask him what he thought of opening the flood gates on offers and why he did not follow up this year with the same strategy.
I think that he is acknowledging that things have changed and he has to adjust. Feels like he is working through how to manage those changes and still retain what he believes to be important.
Maybe this has always been evolving and Roy's tactics have followed suit. Could be we are just more aware of it due to the investigation, lack of OAD's and a few critical misses.
Regardless, we have been putting a very high quality product on the floor through it all. Considering who we have today and the backcourt that is coming in, and don't see that changing. Might look different but it will still be very good.
I can't help but think that another strong year on the court coupled with a few great recruits coming in and finally having a decision with the NCAA is going to ease the hesitancy of recruits choosing to represent UNC.
I'm spoiled on our past recruiting successes. I want to see us return to back to back to back top 5ish classes. I admit it. Coach is a victim of his own success. We're offering bigs projected to start when similarly ranked recruits wouldnt have smelled the gym ten years ago. I love coach as much as anyone but theres no denying the fall off for whatever the causes. Of cours we've seen teams full of 3 star recruits push us all over the court too. Coach did an awesome job last year with very little nba talent at that point in their careers (if any). Hell who knows, maybe thats when he does his best work. We'll see.
Yeah, I think the point above is a good one. We don't necessarily need the very very top guys, but the class ranking is very important. When you have a top 5 class littered with 4 and 5 star recruits, you have more of a margin of error if some don't develop.
Our 2016 class forced Tony Bradley to be great because we missed on other bigs. So far it looks like he will be, but you can't take that chance every year.
Our 2016 class forced Tony Bradley to be great because we missed on other bigs. So far it looks like he will be, but you can't take that chance every year.
We didn't seem to have very many offers out early in '17. I think once we offered then we already had a lot of ground to make up.
Don't forget that Rivals ranked our own Brandon Huffman as the #2 player in the state for 2017. 5*? Of course not. Keeping top in-state talent? Roy has continued to do that.
This is literally the weakest NC class in at least 20 years. The highest ranked player is in the 90s. NC generally has a top 25 kid, a few top 75's.
And 24/7 has 7 kids ranked ahead of Huff in NC. When you're down in the 100s, the rankings vary so much.
Um, what? I literally said rankings vary so much when you get down in the 100s which means I'm taking all of the sites into account.
Oh...and Rivals has the highest ranked NC player at #100. So again, historically the worst NC class in at least 20 years.
I'm not sure why you think I ignored anything.
The point was we recruited one of the top two peeps from NC. The previous argument was Roy was missing the top talent in NC. This should conclude the discussion of relevance!
Meanwhile back at the thread.....Zion is a beastly game changing recruit and I believe our genius of a coach has us on good footing with him. Add him to our current crop of bigs and I don't see how any of the OAD factories can claim superiority. (or even compete, honestly) I would take a sophomore Bradley, added to young beef like Huffman, Manley, and possibly Brooks/Vanderbilt/Knox over any combination you could name!
Meanwhile back at the thread.....Zion is a beastly game changing recruit and I believe our genius of a coach has us on good footing with him. Add him to our current crop of bigs and I don't see how any of the OAD factories can claim superiority. (or even compete, honestly) I would take a sophomore Bradley, added to young beef like Huffman, Manley, and possibly Brooks/Vanderbilt/Knox over any combination you could name!
From what I saw elsewhere sounds like Jalek is recruiting Zion pretty hard... and this was a VERY good weekend for him to be in Chapel Hill.
...a FACT that is lost on many around here who wanna kick someone out the door just to look inviting for the OADs.
I want to express my SUPPORT for our COACH ROY WILLIAMS & all the young men that choose to wear that CAROLINA BLUE.
!!!!!!!!!!!! I LOVE THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL !!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!! GO TAR HEELS !!!!!!!!!!!!
for those that don't approve of my post.....you know where you can put your lips!
!!!!!!!!!!!! I LOVE THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL !!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!! GO TAR HEELS !!!!!!!!!!!!
for those that don't approve of my post.....you know where you can put your lips!
If that is the case than why not save the fifth ship for the 2018 class instead of using three ships on bigs in the same class (all likely to be four year players).
I'm pretty sure Roy knows what he's doing & has a great handle on the situation, and if any of us were able to meet with him to express our concerns, I'm betting his response to your first question would make you rethink your second one.
Maybe Roy wants depth up front. It's only a 4-man rotation amongst the bigs this year with Meeks and Isaiah going. So it looks like a strength-of-numbers situation.
Hey, maybe Roy's thinking that Tony could blow up either this year or next and he'll need bigs with some experience come '18.
Our own wonderful Deana King posted this here just a few days ago. Come on dude.
https://northcarolina.forums.rivals...2017-2018-and-2019-classes.47935/#post-736114
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