Feds Arrest Man in Possible Connection with Bomb Packages . .
- Thread starter BillyL
- Start date
Yet you don’t seem particular concerned with the current President exhibiting both of those traits...
If Trump said he liked his coffee black, you can bet your ass Snopes would be hiding out in his kitchen at 6:00 am to see if he was telling the truth. That's where the left is right now - preoccupied with insignificant shit so they don't have to admit that life is better for more people than before.
They aren't good traits, but try to find a politician who isn't a compulsive liar. Besides, there's a lot worse stuff that he could be doing. At least he hasn't started any more wars as Beavis and Butthead did over the last sixteen years.
See, I think you and I both agree that lying in our politicians isn't a plus. Where we seem to have differences in how bad we think it is, compared to other issues, and that we don't agree that most politicians are liars. That's why I don't tell you that you're wrong for being mad at Trump's lying. My point has always been that it's a pretty tame problem compared to what we've had over the last few decades.
They also don't have any kind of platform, but that's due to them trying to play to both sides of their party, the mainline corporatists and the younger socialists. It's hard to come up with a platform that is going to please both sides.
We agree that most politicians are liars. What we seem to disagree with is trump's level of lying, relative to the norm. To me, that level is obviously much higher than the norm. There's also the issue about making demonstrably false statements... That's clearly abnormal for a POTUS or any other politician.
It's like that old Chris Rock line. "Men tell the most lies, but women tell the biggest lies." Which one is worse? Tens of thousands of people aren't being killed because Trump got the number of people on food stamps wrong.
Let’s not pretend that is the extent of trump’s lying...
He’s destabilizing institutions that are fundamental to our democracy. How many millions of Americans believe the justice department is engaged in a “witch hunt?” How many believe that the free press is the enemy of the people? These are serious issues that will have long term consequences. Trump has brought unprecedented demagoguery into the political mainstream.
I definitely think the FBI has been politicized, and while I believe in a free press, I don't think the press is above condemnation. There's a difference.
Nice bait and switch.
The press can be criticized. But the president calling them the enemy of the people when they criticize him is completely unacceptable. That’s a hallmark of dictators. I’m not saying trump could become a dictator. But I will say that he would love to be one.
Republicans trusted Mueller until he started investigating trump. If anything, the FBI likely slants towards the right. How many liberals have you met in law enforcement? Even if the FBI is politicized to some extent, that doesn’t address the issue I raised. Which is the president going after the justice department, and demanding loyalty from appointees. That is an attempt at undermining the separation of powers that is supposed to check the executive branch.
It wasn't meant to be a bait and switch. I really don't see anyone pushing to take away the freedom of the press. Most of what the press considers an assault is just people being critical. Trump is critical of CNN and CNN goes all "four years old" and starts throwing a tantrum about how the president is trying to censor the media. Calling them "the enemy of the people" is not trying to take away their rights. It's like gay people screaming about how they're going to be assaulted because some religious baker doesn't want to design a cake exactly the way they want it. I do take it as a good sign though, that these people have so much liberty that they feel the need to get upset about something so completely banal.
As for Mueller, I knew nothing about him before all this, but if you look at his record he's a complete f***-up. If he worked in the private sector he'd be mopping floors somewhere right now. This has been going on for two years with nothing to show for it. It's just a giant waste of taxpayer money.
I'd argue that their preoccupation with insignificant shit is why life is better for more people. More entertainment value.
Exactly. People, by nature, need something to complain about. When the country is in a spot where the best complaint to be found is that the President eats too much McDonald's... we're in a good place.
The best was when they stopped reporting on a bombing to bring us the harrowing tale of Trump drinking up to twelve diet cokes in a day. Of course, then you had "Icecream Gate" and the two stories they ran about his penis. Such "hard" hitting reporting.
Again with the bait and switch... did I say anything about people losing rights? This conversation is pointless if you aren’t going to engage the actual points I’m trying to make.
Trump has blatantly attacked any media outlet that is critical of him. He’s insulted reporters, and repeatedly convinced his supporters than any criticism of him is “fake news.” The issue isn’t the press losing rights, the issue is a demagogue convincing people that the press is the enemy and they should only listen to him.
I agree with a lot of this. However, I don't think the people needed Trump to make them hate the media. The media on both sides has been polarizing for a long time.
The press has been shown to be the enemy of the people dating back to the Drudge Report and Monica Lewinsky.
Great work ITT @NoleSoup4U
Great work ITT @NoleSoup4U
I appreciate it. The issue definitely doesn't relate to just the left side of the media. There's a reason why people call Breitbart the "Trump Pravda". It's more about ratings, traffic, and selling ad space than about providing accurate news anymore. I will say that the one thing I like about Drudge is that his website has articles from both sides. I can go there and read an article written by 'The Daily Wire' and read an article written by 'The Huffington Post'. I think it's important to see what both sides are saying because the truth is generally in the middle somewhere.
For me personally? I like to listen to Ben Shapiro and Jimmy Dore. I'm sure most people know who Shapiro is right now, but if you don't know Jimmy Dore, you should check out his show. Both of these guys call out people on both sides of the aisle. I don't always agree with either of them, but I don't tend to find the rhetoric that is commonplace in well-known news firms nowadays.
Oh, and in case anyone doesn’t think Boy is his usual full of shit self, he’s all hot and bothered about Trump saying something that he actually didn’t say.
I don’t trust any mainstream media, TBH, regardless of the side. Their business model requires people being outraged and so they do what they can to keep the clicks and views coming.
Again... the issue is not people simply hating the media. The issues is a demagogue telling his supporters that any news that portrays him negatively is "fake news" and they should only listen to him.
But it is an issue. If the hate was already there, how can you claim that someone else created that hate? People on both sides were attacking the media, calling it "fake news" long before Trump ever became president. In fact, it was the left that started the term "fake news".
Hating the media is an issue but it’s not the one I was discussing. Seems like you will go to pretty much any length to change the topic of discussion to avoid criticizing trump.
What evidence do you have that the left started the term fake news? It was clearly popularized by the dotard.
Okay, buddy, you're starting to lose me now. You state that the president is demagoguing. I tell you that I don't think that's true because that hate was there long before Trump. You accuse me of changing the topic. This has now happened twice in this thread. If you don't want to discuss something, then don't bring it up.
That's a total non sequitur. Why would hate for the media before Trump's election be mutually exclusive with trump engaging in demagoguery? I'm accusing you of changing the topic because you are continually refusing to engage with my actual arguments and keep using this bait and switch topic to address a completely different point than the one I'm making.
I'm not really sure you understand what "bait and switch" actually is. It sounds like you really mean "moving the goalposts", but even then I don't understand your reasoning for this. Do you even know what "demagoguery" means?
Here's a paraphrased comment by a poster on HROT (you remember HROT):
If the Donald could simply refrain from saying and/or tweeting such stupid crap, so often, and also straight up lie about insignificant things so often.... THEN, the media couldn't report it. His opposition wouldn't be as unhinged because there'd be, at least, less to scrutinize and be freaked-out about. And, most important of all, the people who call themselves conservatives wouldn't have to defend him as often. Because, Donald Trump is not conservative, nor is he liberal (none of us are, actually). Donald Trump is in a class all by himself.
Most politicians don't give a damn about the average citizen. Trump is the perfect epitome of that persona. Not only does he not care, he revels in bullshitting those people for their adulation of him. he does it better than any other politician I have ever seen. He's better than Bill Clinton and even Barack Obama.
I don't disagree with some of that. The issue I have is that a lot of these "lies" aren't really lies. I understand that people are freaked out by his rhetoric, but that's often because they don't really understand rhetoric. Trump's rhetoric is really obvious, therefore it isn't really dangerous. The real scary rhetoric is the kind that most people gloss right over.
Oh FFS...
Its not moving the goalposts because you're swapping in completely different arguments and not addressing the actual points I've made. For example, instead of addressing the issue of Trump's demagoguery, you just switch to talking about people hating the media. Sure, some people have always hated the media, but that's not relevant to whether or not trump is a demagogue. A demagogue plays on existing fears and prejudice, so the fact that his supporters were prone to those tendencies before he came along could easily be used as evidence of his demagoguery. That preexisting hate for the media is one of the things he appeals to, and he uses it to insulate his supporters from the rest of the world.
Actually, that is moving the goal posts. Bait and Switch comes from the person initiating contact, not from the person responding.
My position about Trump isn't whether or not he is a demagogue, but what part of that has played a part. If people already hated the media, what could a demagogue actually accomplish at that point in time? Is it that they hate the media a little bit more?
Well, that's your choice as to what you choose to believe are lies and what aren't. The old saying "You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts" becomes a factor, however.
I don't feel like quoting all of his lies, exaggerations, and totally-made-up "rhetoric."
I completely agree that politicians lie. That's part of the job description. They've been lying and pandering since they began and it's required to sit at the table with the other liars. When you're the President, the lies are often front-and-center. Trump enjoys the chaos. His supporters enjoy seeing the people they call "the left" or "liberals" unhappy. It's that simple. It's a pretty fukked-up situation when half the people are getting pleasure from seeing the other half miserable. And, that happens equally on BOTH sides.
Read that at least one more time:
If people already hated the media, what could a demagogue actually accomplish at that point in time?
You're not that naive. I know you're enjoying the argument with the uncboy. But, you're aware of the power and influence that is there for the taking with the circumstances you just described.
I'm not saying that Trump isn't a demagogue. I'm saying that there had to already be hatred there from which he took advantage. Trump took advantage of the outrage, but he didn't create the outrage, and the media just continues to feed said outrage. I'm not defending his actions, but they aren't exactly outrageous for a politician nowadays.
Do you think the way he has taken advantage of the hatred has helped the citizens of the United States for the better or worse?
That's a good question, and I'm going to say that it has helped. The reason for this isn't that he's denigrated the media, it's because he's denigrated globalism. Could he have done it a better way? Absolutely. Ron Paul did it a much better way than Trump. All that being said, globalism is one of the bigger problems we face, IMO. The wars, the bad trade deal, the UN, NATO, and immigration are all issues that the United States needs to deal with in this current climate. Will he address all these issues? I don't know. But, he's talking about them which is better than our previous options.
Trump supporters don’t hate the media in general. They love Fox News. They parrot the exact talking points that fox spits out. This board is a perfect example of that. A handful of posters will regurgitate those talking points like clockwork. Then they'll talk about how they hate mainstream media. It’s kinda funny actually.
People hating the media, and having a leader who capitalizes on that hatred are two completely different things. That exploitation creates a divide in the country where people are basically living in two different worlds. Inside the trump bubble, people have been convinced that immigrants are coming to rape their wives and steal their jobs, and liberals are just communists that want to ruin America. When people genuinely believe those things they become far more prone to political violence and extremism. They become isolated and refuse to engage with facts. Climate change denial is another great example of that. The right has become so insulated that they don’t realize they are fighting against well established science and that the rest of the world thinks they’re crazy.
The Republican Party has become a party of sycophants. They will excuse and defend anything that trump says in the name of political opportunism and confirmation bias. That kind of cult worship of a leader, and believing that any criticism of him is “fake news” is exactly what the founding fathers were concerned about when they designed our government. That’s why we have a system of checks and balances to limit the power of a wannabe dictator like trump. But when the president attacks the separation of powers by going after the justice department, and the legislative branch refuses to check the president, then we have a serious problem. The rise of right wing nationalism around the world and in this country is a serious threat to democracy.
At one point a poll showed that roughly half of the trump supporters that were polled would support suspending the 2020 election if trump said it was rigged. That is a perfect example of why demagoguery is a completely different level of dangerous than simply “hating the media.”
Technically justice is a part of the executive branch. The separation of powers are between different branches.
Obama supporters were ok with cancelled elections as well. Supporters are always going to want that kind of thing. Doesn't matter what side they fall on.
https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-bo...jority-of-democrats-want-third-term-for-obama
You point out one sides hatred of the media. You also take of fox news as if it's the only outlet that tells fake news. There are no news outlets that have no political agenda for one side or the other. The news media as a whole has influence people with their own propaganda for years. The feed the fear of the people themselves. Let me give you a perfect example that we can all agree on. The N&O pushing the UNC issue for all these years. That's more of a local thing, but is a great example. The media worshipped Obama and Clinton, but for the most part hates everything trump does. All the chaos that you say he loves is directed at keeping them occupied on something. Just as Obama and his birth certificate. He could have at any time released it, but it keep the right occupied for a while. Trump is no different in this area. The media and the left hates the fact he was elected. Their prized Hillary was humiliated. No one took into account that people were/are sick of the status quo that Washington produces. Even if he only serves 4 years, he has proven the mold can be broken. I dont agree with everything he says or does. But I do know my day to day life is better. I have more money in the bank. My job is more secure. I still pay health insurance at a clip of over 20k per year for 3 people. Still paid almost 15k in medical Bill's from surgery and other things on top of that. Insurance will be going up several hundred dollars dollars a month next year and less coverage.(as it has for the last 5 years) All of that is a byproduct of the last administration. If you want to address topics that hit home for people, then those are the kind of topics people relate to. Not how many hookers and porn stars someone has sleep with
