MJ has Two Three-peats in his trophy bag. He is the Greatest ever! How many more points per game would he have scored IF he were 6-9?
Jordan And Finals...
- Thread starter ChapelHeeled
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6 Finals appearances - 6 Championships. No series went 7 games. Enough Said.
At 6'9 are we keeping him as a SG? If yes then maybe he shoots a higher percentage, does he have a Lebron physique at 6'9? If yes then MJ adds another 10 PPG.
At 6'9 and he moves positions to power forward then his PPG about same.
MJ could control the Ball as SG and took a lot of shots because he made the choice to pass or shoot. Can't do that at PF position. MJ is the G.O.A.T, but changing him to 6'9 ( assume comparing to Lebron) creates unfair scenerio.
At 6'9 and he moves positions to power forward then his PPG about same.
MJ could control the Ball as SG and took a lot of shots because he made the choice to pass or shoot. Can't do that at PF position. MJ is the G.O.A.T, but changing him to 6'9 ( assume comparing to Lebron) creates unfair scenerio.
Love me some MJ but I have never understood the six finals six wins argument. Fact, that just means his team didn't make it to the finals the rest of the time. Do people really think he would rather lose in the earlier rounds than lose in the finals. I just dont get it. He is the greatest, he just lost earlier
Never failed to make the Finals once he had a legitimate All-Star hit his peak (Pippen).
MJ is my favorite by far, while you can't understand the 6-0 finals argument. I never understood why people say Lebron's competition is easy, but forget they use to say MJ's comp was easier with expansion going on and now they claim he beat godzilla. lol.
funny how people forget what was being said back in the day and start changing history to make an argument in there favor.
At the end of the day, second place is still the first loser. Doesn't matter if you lost in the Finals or the First Round, there's no rings for runner ups.
Agreed. Being 6 of 12 would actually mean he had better postseason success, because that would have been 6 additional times he made it to the Finals, even if he didn't win.
Similar argument people were making in the Montana vs. Brady debate. Montana was 4-0 in Super Bowls, and Brady (prior to a few months ago) was 4-2. Some used that as justification that Montana was better - but if you think about it, that actually means that Brady got to the biggest stage more often, while still winning the same amount. Of course that debate has since been ended after #5, but you get the point.
Always felt that way myself, but with out any doubt we all know its greater to be there playing for it than not to be.
I agree Hark. Its kinda easy math to me, but we all know, me included, people use stats and stuff to make points they believe in
He retired for 2 years between those 6 titles or we are talking about a possible 8 straight.
MJ is still the best ever, period.
Thought he was on the bulls the one year they lost to the magic, could be mistaken though.
I love the MJ vs Lebron argument. Appreciate the greatness that is lebron while he's still here. It's like Montana vs Brady. Montana was joe cool and won 4 for 4, Brady lost two, and only won his SBs by less than a TD each (one in OT). Montana never threw a pick. I'm a Montana guy all the way, but it's hard to deny Brady being the best ever.
Good point,they may have indeed had one or two more titles had he not tried to make it as a baseball player.It shows how good he really was,didn't miss a beat when returned to the NBA.
IIRC, he came back late in the season, and probably wasn't at playoff level coming from Baseball.
Many athletes have unretired none have come back and remained the best player (maybe some boxers).
Too much cheating for my liking. Taping practices, deflating balls, and who knows what else that they haven't been caught for.
I totally agree with both statements you made FTH, but that still does not address what I mentioned.
If Brady wins another SB, I would make a case for him being the greatest "team sport" athlete of all time.
Hardest things to win:
1. NCAA basketball championship
2. Super Bowl
3. Team sport with 7 game series (NBA, NHL, MLB)
Hardest things to win:
1. NCAA basketball championship
2. Super Bowl
3. Team sport with 7 game series (NBA, NHL, MLB)
You can't argue against MJ. At his peak it isn't close, Lebron has one season at 30 points scored, MJ did it 8 times at an insanely efficient rate and did it shooting 2s not 3s. He also played during the hand check era and the Jordan Rules era. He was also the superior defender for his position and won more accolades than Lebron on that end. Being the best player on O and D is insanely difficult. MJ was a stone cold killer.
Lebron lost to JJ Barea, Terry and Marion, did not want the ball at all in the 4th that series, everyone saw him disappear. Lost that series to a vastly inferior team after joining two top 10-15 players in their primes. Then Ray Allen bails him out against the Spurs but the following season they play against the same Spurs team and lost by a record Finals margin over a series. Remind me what happened when MJ played the Jazz back to back? People who don't know basketball will argue Lebron. LBJ may very well finish 2nd overall all time but you guys either don't remember how dominant MJ was or you don't understand the pro game.
Lebron lost to JJ Barea, Terry and Marion, did not want the ball at all in the 4th that series, everyone saw him disappear. Lost that series to a vastly inferior team after joining two top 10-15 players in their primes. Then Ray Allen bails him out against the Spurs but the following season they play against the same Spurs team and lost by a record Finals margin over a series. Remind me what happened when MJ played the Jazz back to back? People who don't know basketball will argue Lebron. LBJ may very well finish 2nd overall all time but you guys either don't remember how dominant MJ was or you don't understand the pro game.
JMHO but...Tom Brady is not a better QB than Joe Montana was, and I don't care how many rings they have...
Just like Bill Russell was not a better basketball player than MJ was, regardless of how many rings they had.
Also- the football vs. basketball comparison NEVER works. Over 30 people play every game for every team in the NFL. And 70 percent of those play a niche role. The NBA is 5 on 5 and there is no niche. Gotta play both sides. Apples and oranges.
"People who don't know basketball will argue LeBron..."
Really? What's it feel like up on that pedestal?
Yes, losing to Dallas was a joke. It was also his first year with that team, and Spo's first year in the spotlight. And the Spurs? Ray Allen didn't "bail" him out. Ray Allen hit one major shot that series. LeBron James averaged 25.3 points, 10.9 rebounds, and 7 assists that series. If it wasn't for people's innate hatred of LBJ for absolutely no reason, they'd call that a Finals MVP Worthy performance...oh wait...THEY DID. Trust me, I live in Charlotte, and Steph is the absolute cockiest dickhead in the game, and if he had those numbers...WHICH HE NEVER WOULD...the ass kissing would never stop.
You need to read some Rick Reilly.
http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/8011587/lebron-being-lebron
No one on a Carolina message board is going to argue LeBron being better than Jordan. I might say LeBron is a better physical specimen than Jordan from a sheer power level, but even as a (clear) huge LeBron fan, that's as much as you're gonna get out of me. Jordan is the ceiling, the roof, and the GOAT, forever.
But your slights on LBJ are hilarious. Dude has 3 chips, is by far the best player in the NBA playoffs right now at the age of 32, and has crushed more records over his 14 year career than anyone in history.
Sit back and enjoy him. You're gonna miss him when he's gone. And if you don't, then it's in fact you who doesn't know basketball.
That's fine. While a minority opinion, it's yours and you're entitled to it. Rings seem like a pretty objective way to measure it, but agreed that they're not the only measuring stick. And QB is really the only position in football where it makes sense to do that, you're not exactly going to determine who the best cornerback of all time was by rings as they have a much smaller impact on overall team success.
Agreed with Bill Russell. Even though he has more rings, it was a different game back then, and when Jordan played it was much harder to win that many rings. Granted, it's the same in the Brady/Montana case because winning multiple Super Bowls was easier in that era as opposed to the current era with free agency being what it is. Which makes what Brady has done all the more impressive.
I never implied that an individual football player had as much of an impact on a team's success as a basketball player. I merely pointed out that the argument was the same from some people insinuating that not losing in a championship game/series was better than not getting to that game/series in the first place.
I agree the fun part about it for the most part is that the argument to me is down to two guys for both sports. If you can't see that Lebron is comparable then you're just a Lebron hater. I'm far from his biggest fan, but you can't deny what he's doing or done, it's extremely remarkable. Bill Russell played in an era where there were only like ten teams.
One thing that you can say about Lebron that I don't think was true with Michael necessarily was that you take Lebron and put him in any roster in the league today and they're automatically at absolute worst a 4-5 seed in the playoffs. He's that good and that dynamic. He makes everyone around him better.
Dude...that 87-88 Bulls team with a 25 year old MJ was BAD and they were a 3 seed.
MJ lost 1 playoff series (on baseball legs) between 1991 and 1998. Talk to me when Lebron does that.
IIRC MJ won his first NBA championship in year 7, and LBJ in year 6.
I don't see a huge difference here.
Lebron is going to his seventh straight finals. He's literally doing exactly that.
Additionally did you see the dog shit team bron took to his first finals? I mean holy smokes the second best player was who? Larry Hughes!?
I said he would likely finish second all time, I think that's giving him plenty of credit. I don't care what he averaged, he lost to inferior teams in the Finals because he was far too passive. Jerry West averaged around 40 in the Finals one year and still lost, stats without titles are empty. Once LBJ became more aggressive he began to win and I began to appreciate his game a lot more, it was a welcome and necessary change in his mentality.
You just made my point, I said people who don't know basketball will argue Lebron ahead of MJ and you said there isn't a comparison, so you do in essence agree with my point. However, there are PLENTY of people I know and media heads (Cowherd and Wright) who make the argument of LBJ over MJ almost daily, my points are directed towards people like them, not you.
My slights are all facts. Ray Allen hit an incredibly clutch shot that won them the series. Ray bailed that team out in a huge way. All great players need help from their teammates so I'll give him that but getting blown out by an aging Spurs team the following year by a record margin, what's the excuse for that? LBJ is by far the best player in the NBA, all I'm saying is that he can't be compared to MJ because that ship sailed. Who cares if it was his first year with the Heat when they played the Mavs? There is no way that team should have been able to beat the Big 3 in their prime(s).
He's the best player in the league so he's going to get an extra amount of credit or criticism for the wins and losses but running off to join two top 10-15 players in Miami is obviously going to be a strike against him, just like it is against Durant should he win this year.
Ray Allen hit that shot in GAME 6. It saved the series, it did not WIN the series. Game 7 still had to be played, and LBJ showed out with 37 and 12. Ray Allen saved the series. LBJ won it on the biggest stage possible.
The joining two top 10-15 players thing doesn't work either- and it's something people seriously need to get over. He was in a terrible situation in Cleveland and Dan Gilbert was not making the moves LBJ wanted to make the team better. He's the face of the league- he gets to think that way. He left to go join his BEST FRIEND in Miami (where would you rather live?) and Chris Bosh (who has never, and will never be, a top 10-15 player in the league) and a slew of mediocrity with a rookie head coach. He wasn't hopping on to the 98 Bulls.
Sure, they lost that first year because he was too passive. But a part of that is him still figuring out that system and how to make Wade and Bosh happy. What did he do? Turn around the next year and win finals MVP and go back to back.
Then what did he do? Let his guilt of leaving Cleveland get to him and go home. Then what did he do? Win finals MVP and bring THEM their first title in the city in 50 years.
There is no argument against what this man has done, and the discredit needs to stop. You said it- second greatest ever. That is already solidified.
I'll never put him over Jordan mainly due to my Carolina allegiance, but this dude is absolutely unreal and the greatest specimen the game has ever seen and likely ever will. Like I said before, sit back and enjoy it. Hating isn't pretty, no matter how you wear it.
The problem I have with your argument is that you're saying nothing he does from here on counts? How has the ship sailed? Bron isn't slowing down in his 14th year. He's still going to head to at least 3-5 more finals before he regresses. That's insane.
It counts towards him securing himself as the 2nd greatest player ever because some might argue he's not quite 2nd all time yet. His peak doesn't get close to MJ's not if you look at the regular or advanced stats and not if you look at their Finals records. Peak for peak it is not comparable and people have broken that down. Lebron will obviously have the longevity argument because he has already played more games than MJ but I see it as a race for #2.
Bud I think we agree on the large picture but saying going to Miami isn't a strike....it obviously is. No one has ever coordinated something like that in FA and even LBJ expressed regret over how that entire situation was handled. I get that he was figuring out the system but he flat out didn't want the ball down the stretch in the Mavs series and they blew many leads. Wade wanted the ball, it was his first year playing with those guys too....
As for the Cleveland return. It is great that he returned to that city but let's be real, Lebron is as calculated and intelligent as any athlete in the world. Wade was aging, the team wasn't as good as they were and there was friction with Riley. Lebron went back to the Cavs when they had a top PG and future HOF in Kyrie and had the assets to assure him that they could get Kevin Love. He didn't go back to a bare cupboard, he went back when he knew the Cavs could compete. The Cavs have also set the NBA record for salary money spent over the last two years, so he has plenty of support now.
I watched CB4 play for years in Toronto and at his peak he was definitely a top 15 player. He went to play third fiddle in Miami but you're wrong there.
Kareem actually but it's tough to figure out how to compare big men to the rest of the players. Not a big Lakers guy but you have to respect the accomplishments. I think one more ring and a Finals MVP would definitely give Lebron the edge over Kareem although if you argued Lebron as #2 right now I don't think I would put up much of a fight. Would be good to see him go at least .500 in Finals before his career is over though. A losing record in the Finals wouldn't be right for somebody as good as he is.
FWIW I believe some of yall have confused my questioning MJs 6 finals with no loses, with comparing it to LJ. I like LJ because he is a great player and he has done and continues to do some amazing things. LJ was never a part of my discussion. and LOL some of you talk like a finals appearance means nothing as if u have been there yourself, and the stats that peeps put up are empty without a chip. ok
Stats are nice but everyone in sports is judged by wins and losses. Jerry West went 1-8 in the Finals. He and MJ are the only players in history to average 40 for an entire post season. He was the best scorer and assist guy around and yet he's never mentioned ahead of guys like Russell who put up worse numbers but won a hell of a lot more.
Espn showed a stat that was pretty glaring. Lebron has played in nearly 30 more playoff games than Jordan and still hasn't scored as many points as Jordan. And he still has half the titles......
