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Thoughts on Confederate Removals?

carolinablue34

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Apr 21, 2016
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I know there's already a thread that touches on this a bit. I may kicking up a hornets nest here. But I just wanted to offer some thoughts on what's been going on, and the numerous calls for Confederate monuments to be removed.

Look, even though I was born in North Carolina, I'm a yankee at heart. This doesn't affect me because any statue up here is devoted to John Adams, Ulysses S. Grant, Charles Sumner, or Ted Williams. But I am a historian and I know a great deal about the Civil War. To me, removing these statues completely doesn't feel right.

I do understand how it could be unsettling or even infuriating to someone who's black, that a monument of someone who fought on the side to preserve an economy based on enslaving their ancestors, stands on public property, courthouses and parks. The Confederacy is on the wrong side of history, and anyone associated with it will be seen the same way.

But, history is complex and filled with much gray. Many of the top generals of the Confederacy like Robert E. Lee, simply fought to protect their home states. These Confederate soldiers and generals were still Americans. They were kin to the ones who fought for the Union. No one here would ever defend slavery or the way black people were treated then and thereafter. However, we don't need to remove the statues simply to make ourselves feel good simply because a couple hundred morons made Hitler salutes and attacked people in Charlottesville.

I would rather see these statues removed to museums or cemeteries with Confederate veterans. I would even support leaving them there with a plaque or information that properly explains the context of the time and war these men fought.

Above all, we need to be sensible. And as I finish off this Dsouthr length worthy post, I would add that history, whether good or bad, needs to be acknowledged and learned from. But I don't see people on either side of the isle doing that. Not the morons of the alt-right, and not the retarded social justice warriors on my facebook feed.

As Americans, all we need to do is remember that we can always do better.
 
"I would rather see these statues removed to museums or cemeteries with Confederate veterans. I would even support leaving them there with a plaque or information that properly explains the context of the time and war these men fought."

this^^^
 
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I'm largely apathetic on social issues like trannies in bathrooms or removal of confederate statues. Usually these things work themselves out.

I will say, however, that I'm fine with taking these statues down. It's not removing history, it's removing a symbol of a divisive time that was purposefully erected to taunt Blacks as most were well after the civil war, with many coming during the civil rights act.


Lastly, they were confederate traitors. They lost. Winners get to write the history books.
 
it is horse shit...not one person today was impacted by what happened 150 years ago....instead of learning from history and celebrating how far we have come from that time we are sticking our heads in the sand and tearing this stuff down...about as assinine as getting pissed at someone not baking a cake for you.....bunch of pansies in our country today who simply are looking for something to be pissed about.....before you SJW start whining about my words I suffered way more then most growing up as a white guy in a 98% Spanish neighborhood...called every name in the book, picked on and beat up........boo hoo!!!!! I got over it and am stronger for it.....unlike these weakling cry babies out here tearing down statues...idiots!!!
 
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it is horse shit...not one person today was impacted by what happened 150 years ago....instead of learning from history and celebrating how far we have come from that time we are sticking our heads in the sand and tearing this stuff down...about as assinine as getting pissed at someone not baking a cake for you.....bunch of pansies in our country today who simply are looking for something to be pissed about.....before you SJW start whining about my words I suffered way more then most growing up as a white guy in a 98% Spanish neighborhood...called every name in the book, picked on and beat up........boo hoo!!!!! I got over it and am stronger for it.....unlike these weakling cry babies out here tearing down statues...idiots!!!
So people who get pissed about these things are giant, gaping vaginas?
 
it is horse shit...not one person today was impacted by what happened 150 years ago....instead of learning from history and celebrating how far we have come from that time we are sticking our heads in the sand and tearing this stuff down...about as assinine as getting pissed at someone not baking a cake for you.....bunch of pansies in our country today who simply are looking for something to be pissed about.....before you SJW start whining about my words I suffered way more then most growing up as a white guy in a 98% Spanish neighborhood...called every name in the book, picked on and beat up........boo hoo!!!!! I got over it and am stronger for it.....unlike these weakling cry babies out here tearing down statues...idiots!!!

doesn't sound like you've gotten over it all.

just how far have we come?

what have we learned?

and the cake analogy, huh?...you mean someone that promised you cake?

i think the people you speak of, like yourself, also feel oppressed...maybe you did better because you could, i don't know...good for you, though.
 
I know there's already a thread that touches on this a bit. I may kicking up a hornets nest here. But I just wanted to offer some thoughts on what's been going on, and the numerous calls for Confederate monuments to be removed.

Look, even though I was born in North Carolina, I'm a yankee at heart. This doesn't affect me because any statue up here is devoted to John Adams, Ulysses S. Grant, Charles Sumner, or Ted Williams. But I am a historian and I know a great deal about the Civil War. To me, removing these statues completely doesn't feel right.

I do understand how it could be unsettling or even infuriating to someone who's black, that a monument of someone who fought on the side to preserve an economy based on enslaving their ancestors, stands on public property, courthouses and parks. The Confederacy is on the wrong side of history, and anyone associated with it will be seen the same way.

But, history is complex and filled with much gray. Many of the top generals of the Confederacy like Robert E. Lee, simply fought to protect their home states. These Confederate soldiers and generals were still Americans. They were kin to the ones who fought for the Union. No one here would ever defend slavery or the way black people were treated then and thereafter. However, we don't need to remove the statues simply to make ourselves feel good simply because a couple hundred morons made Hitler salutes and attacked people in Charlottesville.

I would rather see these statues removed to museums or cemeteries with Confederate veterans. I would even support leaving them there with a plaque or information that properly explains the context of the time and war these men fought.

Above all, we need to be sensible. And as I finish off this Dsouthr length worthy post, I would add that history, whether good or bad, needs to be acknowledged and learned from. But I don't see people on either side of the isle doing that. Not the morons of the alt-right, and not the retarded social justice warriors on my facebook feed.

As Americans, all we need to do is remember that we can always do better.
tl;dr
 
it is horse shit...not one person today was impacted by what happened 150 years ago....instead of learning from history and celebrating how far we have come from that time we are sticking our heads in the sand and tearing this stuff down...about as assinine as getting pissed at someone not baking a cake for you.....bunch of pansies in our country today who simply are looking for something to be pissed about.....before you SJW start whining about my words I suffered way more then most growing up as a white guy in a 98% Spanish neighborhood...called every name in the book, picked on and beat up........boo hoo!!!!! I got over it and am stronger for it.....unlike these weakling cry babies out here tearing down statues...idiots!!!

Believe me man, I sympathize with the sentiment of not taking them down. But as many have pointed out on here, most of these monuments or statues were built during eras where the south were basically thumbing their nose at reconstruction or Civil Rights. The Confederate soldiers and generals have a lot of nuance to them, but the Confederacy fought to keep their agrarian economy based on slavery. The slavery of blacks. That was the principle concern. Imagine you're in their shoes staring up at monuments who fought to keep that way of life, the subjugation of an entire people.

I'm an admirer of Robert E. Lee, but they can't be held up as virtuous heroes. Not in the same way Grant, Sherman, or the Founders can. Put informational plaques next to them, relocate them to museums, or even cemeteries with Confederate soldiers. But there is a valid argument to having them removed from government property.
 
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Believe me man, I sympathize with the sentiment of not taking them down. But as many have pointed out on here, most of these monuments or statues were built during eras where the south were basically thumbing their nose at reconstruction or Civil Rights. The Confederate soldiers and generals have a lot of nuance to them, but the Confederacy fought to keep their agrarian economy based on slavery. The slavery of blacks. That was the principle concern. Imagine you're in their shoes staring up at monuments who fought to keep that way of life, the subjugation of an entire people.

I'm an admirer of Robert E. Lee, but they can't be held up as virtuous heroes. Not in the same way Grant, Sherman, or the Founders can. Put informational plaques next to them, relocate them to museums, or even cemeteries with Confederate soldiers. But there is a valid argument to having them removed from government property.
The Founders owned slaves and intentionally didn't address the issue of slavery, other than the 3/5ths accord. So.
 
I live in Salem, MA. Many might be familiar with the town due to the infamous Witch trials. There are statues and museums and tours dedicated to the "witches", the accusers, the executioners, etc. At no point has anyone ever said we should take down statues of any of these people because they represent a dark time of brutal murder. People recognize it for what it is, history, and not some subliminal message that we really should be hanging women who are a little weird. And if someone decided to make a stink about how their ancestor was a witch and therefore all this stuff offends them, they'd be rightfully told to F off and grow up - and that's even in this liberal cesspool of a state.
 
The Founders owned slaves and intentionally didn't address the issue of slavery, other than the 3/5ths accord. So.

I'm aware of that. But the Founders also didn't fight an internal war over it. It was a time where the nation being so young, had to be held together for its own sake.

They get a pass because they were the ones that brought the United States into its existence. But when the time came where issue of slavery could be ignored no longer, we lost over 500,000 soldiers over it. Many of them fought to keep it.

What's interesting is that an overwhelming number of whites in the south didn't even own slaves. Many of them fought out of a sense of duty to their states, or defend it from the north. So I don't feel, like some, that the entire region should be painted with the same brush. But the great majority of the leaders within the Confederacy seceded because they feared Lincoln would take away their way of life. And many statues honor those people in various regions.
 
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I'm aware of that. But the Founders also didn't fight an internal war over it. It was a time where the nation being so young, had to be held together for its own sake.

They get a pass because they were the ones that brought the United States into its existence.
You could argue, and many historians have, that the Founders' inability to solve the issue of slavery only delayed the inevitability of a war over the issue.

What's interesting is that an overwhelming number of whites in the south didn't even own slaves.
Duh. And this isn't a "duh" directed at you. It's directed at the ignorant masses who don't realize this. People think the entire South looked like Candyland in Django Unchained. Newsflash: it didn't.

What's interesting is that an overwhelming number of whites in the south didn't even own slaves. Many of them fought out of a sense of duty to their states, or defend it from the north. So I don't feel, like some, that the entire region should be painted with the same brush. But the great majority of the leaders within the Confederacy seceded because they feared Lincoln would take away their way of life. And many statues honor those people in various regions.
I appreciate that you are knowledgeable on the subject. We history majors/minors have to stick together!
 
Believe me man, I sympathize with the sentiment of not taking them down. But as many have pointed out on here, most of these monuments or statues were built during eras where the south were basically thumbing their nose at reconstruction or Civil Rights. The Confederate soldiers and generals have a lot of nuance to them, but the Confederacy fought to keep their agrarian economy based on slavery. The slavery of blacks. That was the principle concern. Imagine you're in their shoes staring up at monuments who fought to keep that way of life, the subjugation of an entire people.

I'm an admirer of Robert E. Lee, but they can't be held up as virtuous heroes. Not in the same way Grant, Sherman, or the Founders can. Put informational plaques next to them, relocate them to museums, or even cemeteries with Confederate soldiers. But there is a valid argument to having them removed from government property.
So Sherman was a virtuous hero? Interesting.
 
You could argue, and many historians have, that the Founders' inability to solve the issue of slavery only delayed the inevitability of a war over the issue.


Duh. And this isn't a "duh" directed at you. It's directed at the ignorant masses who don't realize this. People think the entire South looked like Candyland in Django Unchained. Newsflash: it didn't.


I appreciate that you are knowledgeable on the subject. We history majors/minors have to stick together!

You definitely could argue that. The issue was pushed aside so many times without a real resolution that when war did come, it was too late. I don't know that the Founders could have come up with a solution. The Northerners such as Adams, Franklin, Jay and Roger Sherman opposed it greatly, but part of reaching that compromise on the Constitution was allowing the southern states to keep it. There was no easy answer then and there isn't now.

And yes indeed, we history majors need to stick together. Who else will engage in the topics everyone else finds boring? ;)
 
So Sherman was a virtuous hero? Interesting.

He is in the sense that he was one of the leading generals of the Union. He was on the winning side and was instrumental in that war. I understand he still isn't popular in Georgia, but even so by virtue of him fighting for the Union, and thereby abolishing slavery, makes him less controversial than Stonewall Jackson or Robert E. Lee.
 
He is in the sense that he was one of the leading generals of the Union. He was on the winning side and was instrumental in that war. I understand he still isn't popular in Georgia, but even so by virtue of him fighting for the Union, and thereby abolishing slavery, makes him less controversial than Stonewall Jackson or Robert E. Lee.
He's a war criminal, regardless of him being on the winning side or not. He didn't just scourge Atlanta; he wrecked a lot of North and South Carolina too. His men also committed numerous atrocities against civilians.
 
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He's a war criminal, regardless of him being on the winning side or not. He didn't just scourge Atlanta; he wrecked a lot of North and South Carolina too. His men also committed numerous atrocities against civilians.

There's a lot of debate over Sherman's actions. I was only pointing out, despite the controversy, his legacy is less controversial than someone like Lee or Jackson by the fact that he fought for the Union.
 
Anyone who is bothered by the removal of a confederate statue should have their head examined.

Anyone who thinks that removing a confederate statue will solve the issue of racial tribalism should do the same thing.
 
Below are grave markers of my ancestors. Paul Clark was in Confederacy and notice the confederate flag on his grave. "Grig" Clark was in Revolutionary war and found in Nathaniel Green's regiment and someone places a US flag by his grave often. What is to stop folks from tearing down the memorial to my ancestors just because they don't like the symbols? This marker tear down is nothing more than overboard political correctness. This is not good whether we agree or not with the result.


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Nobody mentioned this option, but putting up civil rights statues/monuments adjacent to confederate memorials/monuments could help pacify the feelings of people who are offended. You'd need to ask the offended if this would help, obviously.
 
Statues arent history, they HONOR it. The statues in question were erected to HONOR the subjects they depict. to me they honor ppl who fought to defend the institution of slavery. Even so i was ambivalent about them until the nazis weighed in. I hates nazis and if they like these statues then i hates these statues.
 
doesn't sound like you've gotten over it all.

just how far have we come?

what have we learned?

and the cake analogy, huh?...you mean someone that promised you cake?

i think the people you speak of, like yourself, also feel oppressed...maybe you did better because you could, i don't know...good for you, though.
Never had nothing to get over.....dealt with it and moved on!! You don't see me out in NM tearing down statues of historical spanish/latin figures....because I am a rational human being and NOT some sissy who is crying over something that happened hundreds of years ago.

get your head out of the sand if you cant see the progress that this country has made....guys like you will never ever be happy/satisfied!

Me oppressed...you are the one crying like a little pu&&y about some statues......getting your self in a tizzy because you got triggered.....
 
Never had nothing to get over.....dealt with it and moved on!! You don't see me out in NM tearing down statues of historical spanish/latin figures....because I am a rational human being and NOT some sissy who is crying over something that happened hundreds of years ago.

get your head out of the sand if you cant see the progress that this country has made....guys like you will never ever be happy/satisfied!

Me oppressed...you are the one crying like a little pu&&y about some statues......getting your self in a tizzy because you got triggered.....
Have you ever considered that your poasts make you sound like an emotional woman in need of a safe space?
 
I don't really care that much about the issue so taking them down is not a huge deal to me. If they are offensive to a large group of people and if that is reasonable (which it is) then I have no real beef with taking them down. Move them to a museum or something like others have said. Not sure why people would really object to that. I'm all about southern pride but always found it sort of odd to honor the losers anyway. I can be full of pride for my region without attaching it to dudes who fought in the Civil War.
 
Talk about opening up a pandora's box.....where exactly will this end? I don't like something so I get to tear it down? I am offended by something so I get to tear it down. I don't like something that someone said so they get fired.....I am triggered by that word so you can't use it anymore.....folks are now digging up graves of confederate officers........unbelievable that we are even having this conversation!!!!
 
Even so i was ambivalent about them until the nazis weighed in. I hates nazis and if they like these statues then i hates these statues.

I definitely see where you're coming from, and on this particular issue I may even agree. But once we start giving these nazis power by destroying anything they say they like, they could get smart about it. If they somehow correlate puppies to being symbols of Hitler, do we just go and slaughter all the puppies in the country to spite the nazis?
 
Have you ever considered that your poasts make you sound like an emotional woman in need of a safe space?
This coming from the liberal side that has brought us trigger words ( you used safe space), being offended by a 150 year old statues etc....I am talking to a bunch of emotional triggered man buns who have ZERO common sense.....If I sound like a women it is only because I am arguing with a bunch of pu$$ified men.....again, look in the mirror and tell yourself that you will be OK...
 
This coming from the liberal side that has brought us trigger words ( you used safe space), being offended by a 150 year old statues etc....I am talking to a bunch of emotional triggered man buns who have ZERO common sense.....If I sound like a women it is only because I am arguing with a bunch of pu$$ified men.....again, look in the mirror and tell yourself that you will be OK...
You seem like a sensible, balanced individual
 
Talk about opening up a pandora's box.....where exactly will this end? I don't like something so I get to tear it down? I am offended by something so I get to tear it down. I don't like something that someone said so they get fired.....I am triggered by that word so you can't use it anymore.....folks are now digging up graves of confederate officers........unbelievable that we are even having this conversation!!!!

You aren't reasonable though. You want to act like people are going to be allowed to tear down grave markers and change things just because they are offended, which isn't what anyone has said. If it is reasonable that something offends an entire group of people (which is the case with statues in public places like these) then the discussion of what to do with them is something to be considered. Again, this is something reasonable people (on both sides of an issue) should consider.
 
Trump isn't helping. He's saying "what's next, Jefferson?". Folks are hearing his response and just getting more pissed about monuments.

He should be saying, "nazi's are bad, this country will start having cool, calm, collected conversations via elected leaders"
 
I didn't read all the poasts in this thread but I'll share my thoughts.

I think the removal of the statues is wrong. I did read @ticket2ride04's poasts where he says "many of these statues were put up for the sole reason of disrespecting blacks". I'm going to need proof of that before I believe it.

Secondly, here's a newsflash - people in the North owned slaves. They freed their's just a few years before slavery was abolished nationwide. So I'm supposed to look at Ulysses Grant as some beacon of righteousness and demonize Lee because Grant jumped on the "slavery is bad" train just a few years before those in the South? That's bullshit. If slavery is bad, it was always bad. A few years shouldn't make one a hero and another the devil.

Lastly, the South needed slaves to prosper. Lincoln knew that. The war was about control. Save all that humanitarian bullshit for someone that might believe it. The North was not outlawing slavery for the reasons you were told in elementary school.
 
Lastly, the South needed slaves to prosper. Lincoln knew that. The war was about control. Save all that humanitarian bullshit for someone that might believe it. The North was not outlawing slavery for the reasons you were told in elementary school.
Every time I see this conversation come up I always picture that scene in The Simpsons where Apu is trying to get his citizenship.

Examiner: All right, here's your last question. What was the cause of the Civil War?

Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists, there were economic factors, both domestic and inter...

Examiner: Wait, wait... just say slavery.

Apu: Slavery it is, sir.
 
I didn't read all the poasts in this thread but I'll share my thoughts.

I think the removal of the statues is wrong. I did read @ticket2ride04's poasts where he says "many of these statues were put up for the sole reason of disrespecting blacks". I'm going to need proof of that before I believe it.

Secondly, here's a newsflash - people in the North owned slaves. They freed their's just a few years before slavery was abolished nationwide. So I'm supposed to look at Ulysses Grant as some beacon of righteousness and demonize Lee because Grant jumped on the "slavery is bad" train just a few years before those in the South? That's bullshit. If slavery is bad, it was always bad. A few years shouldn't make one a hero and another the devil.

Lastly, the South needed slaves to prosper. Lincoln knew that. The war was about control. Save all that humanitarian bullshit for someone that might believe it. The North was not outlawing slavery for the reasons you were told in elementary school.

Slavery was not allowed merely a few years before the war, most northern states had abolished it long before that. Not sure where you're getting that from.

Look, you know me better than to think I believe the elementary school version of the Civil War. But the root of the conflict was slavery, and whether or not the south had the right to secede and keep their agrarian economy based on slave labor. There's no denying that. Like it or not, the legacy of slavery will always be associated with the south.

Grant never owned slaves GSD. No Union general did.
 
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