In your opinion do you think they will be better off with Berry or Britt at the pg spot and Paige at the sg, or Paige at the point and Pinson AT THE SG.
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paige at sg berry at pg. Yes
In my opinion, his style of play at point guard doesn't really mesh well with Roy's system. In the last 3 years I've seen more late clock iso situations than any in the Roy era. So I think we're 10 points better with him at 2 and Berry running point. Also, Williams over Pinson at the 2. Pinson is a person that can spell someone on the wing but I just don't see much offense from him. More athletic Jackie Manuel maybe?
Awful lot of speculation there, Billy... as for all that I'll just say "maybe, maybe not".Roy was forced to start a freshman point guard 2 years in a row, there was absolutely no way that Joel Berry was going to start at the 1 spot last year. Paige was thrown into the fire because there was no alternative in 2012, the debacle that Hairston and McDonald left us in for 2013 left him no other choice but to start Nate Britt. The fact that Roy made a promise to Marcus that he would be our starting PG last year meant it was a no-brainer that Joel, barring injury to MP, wasn't even going to be an option at starting the point.
The PG position is just to difficult to master in Roy's system, and the difficulty was purely evident in Berry's struggle on court in the early part of last season. Roy also seemed to liken Britt's speed to pushing the ball up court more than that of JB's . . after all, Britt was faster with the ball than both Marcus and Joel.
The question of whether to play Paige, Britt or Berry at the PG position wouldn't even be discussed on message boards had Roy been able to somehow successfully recruit a 2 guard that could shoot from the perimeter. Had Roy secured a Matt Jones, Bronson Koenig, Devin Booker, James Blackmon, D'Angelo Russell, Rashad Vaughn, Antonio Blakeney, Luke Kennard or Malik Newman, all of which he missed on, to play the 2 spot, then I can assure you all that Paige would be our starting point guard this upcoming season.
Paige is not only this team's(2015) best PG, but, because of Roy's failure to secure a talented shooter, he is also this team's best SG. Furthermore, you only have to look at is the number of shooter/players that Roy offered to know that to have to play Marcus at the 2 spot is not something he truly wishes to do, but, may ultimately and unfortunately be forced to accept, now that Tokoto has gone to the NBA.
Oz, there's an old (and true) coach's saying: Two 1s are a lot better than two 2s. And yes, Roy did that on occasion.My memory is pretty poor but didn't Roy use a double point guard style a bit at Kansas? Or at least he had a main ball handler while the "shooting guard" was also a competent ball handler - a combo guard.
Awful lot of speculation there, Billy... as for all that I'll just say "maybe, maybe not".
But I will offer one sure correction:
Joel Berry is our best PG. He was the best by skill-set before he stepped on campus, but as you pointed out, there is indeed a steep learning curve at the 1 in the Dean/Roy system. Once JB "got it" and came back from the injury, then it was frankly no contest. That's nothing against Marcus... he's a terrific basketball player, but just a pretty good PG.for the Carolina system. He's a decent facilitator, but his best talent is scoring the rock, which he'll have an easier time doing without having to run the show (plus those PG skills come in handy at the 2 as well). As for the aforementioned missed-on SG recruits, I'll take Marcus as our 2015-16 2-guard and not even glance back.
You and I have obviously gone around before on this subject, but I think we at least agree that Roy was gun-shy last season about starting another freshman PG after the Britt debacle the year before. That won't be an issue this season. I think you're gonna like the Berry/Paige backcourt my friend .
Roy was forced to start a freshman point guard 2 years in a row, there was absolutely no way that Joel Berry was going to start at the 1 spot last year. Paige was thrown into the fire because there was no alternative in 2012, the debacle that Hairston and McDonald left us in for 2013 left him no other choice but to start Nate Britt. The fact that Roy made a promise to Marcus that he would be our starting PG last year meant it was a no-brainer that Joel, barring injury to MP, wasn't even going to be an option at starting the point.
The PG position is just to difficult to master in Roy's system, and the difficulty was purely evident in Berry's struggle on court in the early part of last season. Roy also seemed to liken Britt's speed to pushing the ball up court more than that of JB's . . after all, Britt was faster with the ball than both Marcus and Joel.
The question of whether to play Paige, Britt or Berry at the PG position wouldn't even be discussed on message boards had Roy been able to somehow successfully recruit a 2 guard that could shoot from the perimeter. Had Roy secured a Matt Jones, Bronson Koenig, Devin Booker, James Blackmon, D'Angelo Russell, Rashad Vaughn, Antonio Blakeney, Luke Kennard or Malik Newman, all of which he missed on, to play the 2 spot, then I can assure you all that Paige would be our starting point guard this upcoming season.
Paige is not only this team's(2015) best PG, but, because of Roy's failure to secure a talented shooter, he is also this team's best SG. Furthermore, you only have to look at is the number of shooter/players that Roy offered to know that to have to play Marcus at the 2 spot is not something he truly wishes to do, but, may ultimately and unfortunately be forced to accept, now that Tokoto has gone to the NBA.
I disagree, Gary. I've seen nothing from Berry that indicates he is our best PG. I have nothing against JB, but, for a guy that has never started for us, it is difficult for me to accept him as our best PG.
I hope he has a great break-out sophomore year for us. I'd love to see it, but, to surpass Marcus there, it is going to take improvement only measured in 'leaps and bounds'.
Roy was not forced to start a freshman PG 2 years in a row, Roy chose to start Paige as a freshman, when many, including myself begged for PJ to start at the 2. Roy has stated very clearly his desire to start duo PGs on the floor together many times, harkening back to Hinrich at kansas.
It isn't like Roy has not started freshmen PGs, Ty Lawson ring a bell, Frazier as a freshman? Yes, pg for a freshman is hard deal but more of the reason we did not see Berry in more earlier last season was Roy feeling he needed as much experience as he could get considering he was going to start Jackson, a freshman any way.
To say that Berry played poorly early last season? How would we know, he barely saw the floor early on, when he finally got solid PT we all saw what he did with it. He very clearly out played Britt on either end of the court and marcus finally began to play much better when Berry was on the floor with him.
You give a list of shooting guards and suggest that had we got one of those fellas that you would gurantee Paige would be the starting PG for this coming season? Well we got Kenny Williams who is as good as most of that list if not better than some of them, so are you guranteeing now that Paige is our starting PG and Berry comes off the bench?
Sorry billy but I ain't buying much of that post boss, IMO way off on that one...
I'll agree that there were times that Berry out-played Britt in the latter part of the season. Maybe you missed the first half of the NCAA-T game with Arkansas, where Nate carried us when nobody else could do squat.
Kenny Williams as good as most on that list . . ? I don't look for KW to be much of a contributor this upcoming season to be honest with you, he's certainly not at the level of any of those folks. C'mon Dave, please stop with the over-hyping of UNC's incoming talent like so many of our fans seemingly love to do during the summer. Who on that list I posted is Kenny Williams better than . . ? My Gawd, man . . . you're setting up Williams just like you did Berry last summer. Brace yourself, for there is certain disappointment coming your way.
As far as playing or starting 2 PGs this year, of course Roy will . . as its obvious that Theo will likely not have an edge due to his injury, and Williams is not the answer to start at the 2 spot. What is there left for him option wise . . ? Paige, Britt, Berry & Williams.
Had Tokoto stayed his senior year, you think that Berry would've pushed him to the bench as a starter . . ? No way that was going to happen either. Or Berry playing well enough in practice that he takes Paige's place . . ? It wasn't until 3/4's of our season was over that Berry finally elevated his game enough to be Roy's second option at PG.
You are correct that Berry didn't see much of the court in early season, that's because of 2 reasons. First, he stunk when he was on the court and the stats proved that Britt was playing at a more productive level and secondly, his play during all those practice scrimmages never warranted major game PT. Yes, I'll agree, he improved enough finally to be Roy's 2nd PG choice over Nate . . but, that took almost an entire season. No doubt the injury slowed his progress, but, Marcus Paige he isn't.
Actually, that was about to happen.Had Tokoto stayed his senior year, you think that Berry would've pushed him to the bench as a starter . . ? No way that was going to happen either.
I'll agree that there were times that Berry out-played Britt in the latter part of the season. Maybe you missed the first half of the NCAA-T game with Arkansas, where Nate carried us when nobody else could do squat.
First, he stunk when he was on the court and the stats proved that Britt was playing at a more productive level and secondly, his play during all those practice scrimmages never warranted major game PT. Yes, I'll agree, he improved enough finally to be Roy's 2nd PG choice over Nate . . but, that took almost an entire season. No doubt the injury slowed his progress, but, Marcus Paige he isn't.
Are you Nate's Godfather or something? I just can't understand any other reason for the undeserved praise.
I've seen you (and others) mention this wonderful performance by Nate in the Arkansas game, and try to use that as justification that he was better than Berry. I watched the game, and while Nate looked good for once, I don't know why we're saying he carried us. His stat line for that game is in the box score link below. 10 points (eh) on 2-4 shooting (ok) 1-2 3PT (nice percentage but he hit one shot) 5-5 FT (this was nice to see given the FT problems of the rest of the team), 4 rebounds (impressive for the little guy but not vital from the PG position) and 1, yes 1, assist (from your supposed PG- floor general?, come on man). As well as 3 fouls since he probably got blown past at least 3 times on the defensive end.
I'll give you a pass if you look at that stat line in isolation and think he may have been finally catching on, however if you still thought that after watching his 3-4 minute meltdown in the following game that almost single-handedly caused us to get bounced out of the tournament I'm not sure if I can help you there.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400786202
My PG-floor general, as you put it, is Marcus Paige. I want him at the point and a decent-good-great SG with some size on our roster starting along side him.
I'm with you on this one. Theo can be a solid rotation player. His injury last season just derailed pretty much all of his freshman year.Agree on Berry but think you're selling Theo way short. Much more complete game than Manuel.
I'll agree that there were times that Berry out-played Britt in the latter part of the season. Maybe you missed the first half of the NCAA-T game with Arkansas, where Nate carried us when nobody else could do squat.
Kenny Williams as good as most on that list . . ? I don't look for KW to be much of a contributor this upcoming season to be honest with you, he's certainly not at the level of any of those folks. C'mon Dave, please stop with the over-hyping of UNC's incoming talent like so many of our fans seemingly love to do during the summer. Who on that list I posted is Kenny Williams better than . . ? My Gawd, man . . . you're setting up Williams just like you did Berry last summer. Brace yourself, for there is certain disappointment coming your way.
As far as playing or starting 2 PGs this year, of course Roy will . . as its obvious that Theo will likely not have an edge due to his injury, and Williams is not the answer to start at the 2 spot. What is there left for him option wise . . ? Paige, Britt, Berry & Williams.
Had Tokoto stayed his senior year, you think that Berry would've pushed him to the bench as a starter . . ? No way that was going to happen either. Or Berry playing well enough in practice that he takes Paige's place . . ? It wasn't until 3/4's of our season was over that Berry finally elevated his game enough to be Roy's second option at PG.
You are correct that Berry didn't see much of the court in early season, that's because of 2 reasons. First, he stunk when he was on the court and the stats proved that Britt was playing at a more productive level and secondly, his play during all those practice scrimmages never warranted major game PT. Yes, I'll agree, he improved enough finally to be Roy's 2nd PG choice over Nate . . but, that took almost an entire season. No doubt the injury slowed his progress, but, Marcus Paige he isn't.
For the record predicting last season's initial starting lineup was no great feat, given the much-discussed circumstances. Turned out poorly for us (as I predicted --- again, no great feat), but it was what it was.Joel stank enough that he was our 3rd option at PG. Not only in games, but, on the practice court. Roy apparently had little faith in bringing Joel off the bench before Nate.
Let me say this . . . If in your mind, Theo is good enough to take Jackson's spot, then by the time the ACC season begins, I'd predict our backcourt will be Paige-Pinson. Jackson's production/upside in Roy's offense, will be far better than anything Berry will contribute.
Going even further, if Pinson had not gotten hurt last year, this year's starting backcourt would definitely be Paige/Pinson.
And just like last summer, when I predicted Marcus was going to be our starting PG, I'll say again . . "Let's wait 'n see."
Joel stank enough that he was our 3rd option at PG. Not only in games, but, on the practice court. Roy apparently had little faith in bringing Joel off the bench before Nate.
Let me say this . . . If in your mind, Theo is good enough to take Jackson's spot, then by the time the ACC season begins, I'd predict our backcourt will be Paige-Pinson. Jackson's production/upside in Roy's offense, will be far better than anything Berry will contribute.
Going even further, if Pinson had not gotten hurt last year, this year's starting backcourt would definitely be Paige/Pinson.
And just like last summer, when I predicted Marcus was going to be our starting PG, I'll say again . . "Let's wait 'n see."
Now Billy, you know better than that, it wasn't that Berry stank early last season, it was the fact that Roy had 2 experienced PGs and had already made the decision to start a freshman in Jackson. He brought Joel along slower because he could. Roy felt he could get away with JP at the 2 and in many sets more of a PG role than the guy you thought was playing the point. When Roy can get away with using experience he tends to do just that, did kendal stink the joint up as the reason Drew started for so long in kendal's freshman season?
I did not say or predict that Theo would take Jackson's spot, I said that Jackson could struggle to hold on to the number of minutes he got last season if Theo comes on like I suspect he will. Losing some of his minutes is a far cry from losing his starting job. No need to spin what I said in to something crazy.
Here is one you will not have a need to spin, in my opinion, when that foot is mended and Theo has his game conditioning in, Theo will be the best defender on this team and when you defend you play for Roy. Theo will play some wing and some 2, he is much better suited for the wing. Yeah, there are going to be times that Paige is the point with either Theo or kenny at the 2 or Britt.
Did you follow at all the break downs of PPM with the different combinations of PGs in last season? It was amazing the stark difference in points per minute when Berry was on the floor comparred to when he wasn't, not what I call stinking things up and exactly why you watched Joel's PT climb strong after he came back from his injury and being sick.
When you put a kid (freshman) in for 2 minutes a half you typically are not going to get a ton of good things from him, he is always looking over his shoulder, isn't able to get in to a good rythem before he is yanked. Danny Green as a freshman is a great example but recall the difference when Danny could finally relax knowing he was going to get PT. You saw thew same thing with Joel last season, when he finally believed he was going to get PT the game slowed down for him, he stopped trying to do to much and began to play his game, can't deny that, we all watched it play out.
Billy, I almost take your replies to this as you see me in some way down playing Marcus, I am not, he is our best player, I want him in a better position to help us, I want him to focus on his own scoring because he is so vital to what we are looking to do. Marcus is NOT a great PG, he is a great player but he is much more a combo guard than he is a true point, Steph Curry was not a great college PG either, he was a great player but a combo more than point in college. he is the starting PG for the world champs in the NBA right now, where you fit in college is different than where you fit in the NBA where you have star talent at all positions.
For UNC to do what so many dream of next season, Marcus Paige is going to have to be able to focus more on his own scoring than distributing. For that to happen 2 things have to occur, first some one else inour back court is going to have to step up as a jump shooter, Berry really started to come on in that area at the end of the season, Britt had some good jump shooting games, Jackson is expected to really step up here. But second, our front court is going to have to take a lot of the scoring burden off the back court, forcing defenders to drop down & help defend our front court guys leaving back court guys cleaner jump shot looks. IMO right now I am less sold that our front court will step up as big as I feel they need to than most seem to be.
I need to see Meeks & Hicks take things to another level, I need to see Brice not spend so much time on the bench in foul trouble, and I need to see that Joel james showed us glimpses of the future late last season rather than his career highlites. My gut right now tells me to look forward with caution, not because of our back court, because our front court has to step up further than I think they are likely to.
For the record predicting last season's initial starting lineup was no great feat, given the much-discussed circumstances. Turned out poorly for us (as I predicted --- again, no great feat), but it was what it was.
Now granted, Roy did some things last season that made me wonder if the pressure was finally getting to him.... but the initial starting lineup was at least understandable (albeit ill-fated)... but c'mon man, on no planet would Theo be starting this coming season, with or without his injury (unless MP, JB or JJ go down). In fact, speaking of which, if not for his own injury Joel Berry would have finished the season as the starting PG and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
I'm not gonna get into predictions, if only because just reliving that infamous gawd-awful substitution after the Under-8 in the Wisky game makes me balk at assuming what should be certainties, but if anyone other than Berry is our starting PG come November then I'll just say my long-time faith in Roy's coaching acumen will be shaken at its very core.
That's a good point regarding dook and UK, especially the "dumbing down" part. Over the last decade the Rat has indeed dumbed down his system (as has Cal). The variations on Dribble Drive schemes they run are shortcuts built in many ways for the age of one-and-dones and (in dook's case) the easy 3-point shot.Gary I think an aspect that many don't consider when they try to explain why Joel didn't play more early last season is the experience factor. Now I know, it sounds odd, duke plays 3 freshmen and they all play well (one of them a PG) , Ky seems to always fill the floor with freshmen and they play well. But what folks don't realize is sometimes it is easier to play with freshmen that are really talented if you play them all together than it is to mix in a couple freshmen in to a very experienced group.
If you have 3 or 4 freshmen on the court together, you dumb down a lot of what you do but when you are dealing with one or 2 you do not dumb it down, you hope your experienced guys on the court can position the freshmen that do not know what to do. Roy was not going to dumb things down last season because he had more experience than he had for a while. So Roy picked the freshman that he was most comfortable starting and the one in his opinion could contribute more sooner in Jackson. I think he as well felt THeo as a defender would have been his second frosh to go to, berry kinda was odd man out and when his time did come he got hurt and then sick.
Now I am not going to argue that Roy should not have made the decision to start Jackson early on, didn't love the notion of JP at the 2 because IMO he was grossly playing out of position, mostly because a lot of the time he was in as a 2 he was actually doing a lot of PG duty and JP as a PG IMO was a mistake.
That's a good point regarding dook and UK, especially the "dumbing down" part. Over the last decade the Rat has indeed dumbed down his system (as has Cal). The variations on Dribble Drive schemes they run are shortcuts built in many ways for the age of one-and-dones and (in dook's case) the easy 3-point shot.
In contrast, I can tell you (having coached a version of it myself) that the Dean/Roy system has a much higher learning curve... and the curve is by far the steepest at PG.
You and I both thought (and we were right) that Roy should have thrown Berry into the fire from Day 1 and let him learn on the fly... he's a natural and a sharp kid, and by mid-season he would have been cooking like a pro. However I feared that Roy's less-than-favorable recent experiences with freshman PGs would cause him to err on the "safe" side, what with Marcus already in the fold. Plus he thought JP had earned a chance to start and Jackson playing a complementary position on the wing would be less risky.
Dave, (and I think you will agree with this) here's why Roy's decision was ill-conceived and doomed:
1. JP and JJ at the wings left Marcus without another legit consistent 3-point threat... JJ hadn't gained his mojo yet and we all know of JP's inconsistencies. Thus, opponents backed off our wings making entries to the post more difficult, and ganged up on Marcus making his life miserable and his production plummeted. Being the only outside threat and running the offense took its toll.
2. Jackson's reticence enabled JP to act as a de facto 2, taking him out of his ideal role.
Again, to be fair, Roy had a touchy personnel situation to juggle last season, so I can't blame him for the initial decision... and without the Berry injury, Roy was by all indications on his way to making the needed lineup correction. By mid-season it was painfully obvious that the Berry-Paige backcourt was the way to go --- Lord knows the stats screamed it.
You and I are probably both a bit gun-shy after last season about feeling completely confident, but as you posted ITT, if Roy doesn't come out with the obvious right lineup after all that, "disappointment" would be a mild term to say the least.
Maybe it's just me... but as of today, I just haven't seen enough to be all that high on Pinson. Looks like a very very poor mans lance stephenson with absolutely no jump shot. I HOPE I'M WRONG! I'm rooting for the kid to be an AA before it's all said and done, but as of today I just don't see it.