I thought JWash played well all things considered for the kid and what he has been through…Like others have said this is the 1st year he has been healthy in what 3 years…Can he play 30 minutes a game for the whole year idk…I will trust Coach Davis and the decision he makes on what we need…I hope JWash is back…
A Closer Look at Best Available Big Men in the Portal
- Thread starter andrew jones
- Start date
In fairness, you're extremely bullish on Washington. 👇(from March 5)
I admit I'm jumping the gun here without knowing what our team will look like next year (and how Powell, Jackson, or Brown will look), but I don't think we'll be a serious Final Four contender with Washington as a starter.
A lot of that is because I don't think Washington is a 4. He can play 4 against some teams that start 2 stiff big guys, but I think all 8 teams in the Elite 8 had a 4 who can put the ball on the floor a bit or at least play through him as a trigger. No offense to Washington, but that's probably not realistic for him offensively, and right now, that's a mismatch for him defensively.
If he can develop into someone who can give you 15-20 minutes against any team, that's a win IMO. Because right now, there are certain teams that he really can't play against. Right now, he's kind of a pick and pop big who can score off offensive rebounds.
Plenty of things I like about his game:
- Shooting (if you can't tell, I value shooting a ton so this is important)
- I like the way he seals in the paint
- He attacks the rim when he finishes
- Has length and reach to alter shots as a help defender
I'm intrigued by his 3PT shooting, but 15 attempts IMO isn't enough to make any declarations one way or another. Also, if it matters, 6 of his made 3s came against three of our weakest opponents of the season (Riverside, Charleston Southern, Notre Dame).
If he's a starter and we have hopes of being a serious Final Four team, I think that means 3 of the other starters need to be gifted offensive players and preferably 2 way players too. Assuming Cadeau isn't a gifted scorer next season, that means the 2, 3, 4/5 (depending on where Washington starts) need to be scorers.
Nathan what are our best portal options to replace Ingram at the 4?
Obviously Hubert's system works best with a 3pt threat at the 4, but they also need to be able to guard the perimeter and the post. Ingram was also an amazing rebounder. We've missed (Garcia, Nance, Withers) more than we've hit (Manek, Ingram) on portal 4s with Hubert. I think Ingram proved we're better off looking for 3/4 comboforwards considering the nature of the modern game.
I don't really keep up with the portal. It's a little too much for me, lol.
I prefer a 3/4 hybrid or a true 4 who can shoot. Having a 4 that can shoot either makes a good offense that much more difficult to defend. And also offers some shooting insurance in case you have an inconsistent shooting backcourt (which we may have if Cadeau doesn't improve). So I always prefer having the 4 spot being someone who can shoot.
For next year, we would upgrade significantly IMO if we have a 3 or 4 that can create offense off the bounce. Ryan definitely could not do that. And I think Ingram's playmaking tends to get overrated by fans. To me, Ingram can't dribble and over the totality of the season, he was pretty poor when he had to dribble more than twice. I don't think his post up game was all that efficient despite his physical advantage. And BartTorvik had 92.3% of his 3's as assisted 3's. So he's a catch-and-shoot perimeter shooter IMO. If they can get one or 2 wing players that can put the ball on the deck and create at least for himself, I think that opens a lot of things up.
However, if it turns out that our 1-3 can't shoot it... You almost have to go to the traditional 2 bigs and try to offensive rebound your way to points. I don't think you can do that in today's game and expect to win. UNC's 2016 Finals team was a 32.7% 3PT shooting team and they got that far by being an elite offensive rebounding and 2PT shooting team. Will that translate almost a decade later? I have my doubts. But if that's how the roster is constructed, I don't think you have a choice. Unless you have like a Dirk Nowitzki type 4-man. But not a lot of those walking around this planet.
One thing for next season... I didn't think Ingram was a hard cutter off the ball. He isn't the lightest on his feet so that's a skill he may not have right now. But apart from Cormac, I didn't think this was a great cutting team last year. RJ cut hard when he was going to get the ball.
It was a huge thing Manek provided during that March run. His cuts were so violent and those small details matter big time. This was against Duke when everyone was exhausted with under 2 minutes left. Manek makes a violent and hard cut to the wing and gets just enough space to nail the 3. If that were a slow, or lazy cut, he wouldn't have been open enough to shoot it. (Sorry to go off topic)
He has my respect for being such a great ambassador for UNC but as a player I just didn't think he was that impressive. In 5 years he never developed much of anything resembling an offensive arsenal as his go to shot for his entire career was a dunk or lay in (which was never a given), he never developed anything resembling a decent hook shot which has been a UNC staple for big men forever, when catching passes in the lane he consistently brought the ball down below his shoulders where anybody and their brother could get a clean swipe at it, more times than I care to remember he tried to dribble to the basket in to defensive pressure .. probably because he had no offensive short game or a high bball IQ and he never really had a good handle. And I'd like to know how many of his rebounds were credited after he missed and grabbed one (or more) of his own shots.
The poster asked if Bacot "would be hard to replace" and in some ways he may be but from a talent perspective I just don't/didn't think so and we'll find out this fall. GO HEELS !!
Thinking he should be our starting 5 while thinking we want to be a contender next year is nuts.
Thats like everyone saying before the 19-20 season that Brandon Robinson was going to step in and lead us to a championship.
The beauty of this thing is that we shall see, but I will make a prediction if he is our starting 5 next year we will be a bubble team at best.
With that said I think we will bring one in because they knownhe isn't the answer.
This is apart of Cade Tyson's game I really like. We all know he can fill it up from three, but he's also an active cutter. His game gives me similar vibes to Justin Jackson. JJ's trademark was that floater he went to often, but a lot of his offense came from cutting. Out of the few guys we've reached out to, Tyson is at the top of my wish list.
Tyson's jump shot itself is interesting. He has really nice form with an interesting release. He releases the ball solely with his right hand and uses a strong follow through. His release point is above his ahead and he gets a lot of elevation on his jump shot. That's why I think his shooting will translate to any power conference. It also doesn't hurt that he's 6'7".
I've seen clips of him using a shot fake to drive to the basket where he's not afraid of contact. My only concern is that he's not very explosive laterally. He's gonna face defenders in the ACC that are quicker and longer than guys he faced in the Missouri Valley Conference. However, we have seen guys succeed on the wing for us that had similar athletic deficiencies (I'm referencing Justin Jackson again).
As far as cutting goes, that may have been a bigger role in Belmont's offense than it would be in ours. However, I do believe HD was a fan of the improved motion our offense was able to produce last year with more scorers. I'm getting ahead of myself but I can already see Elliot bounce passes to Cade Tyson backdoor cuts right now.
I'm in no way saying Cade Tyson will be the same for us that Justin Jackson was, but I do see similarities in their games. I think at the very least, Tyson would be a highly productive scorer for us, even if he has to come off the bench.
Not sure Wash (and I'm one of his biggest fans) has the size to bang inside effectively yet but his skill set and stroke could make for an interesting 4 with a true inside big. jmo
But he can't guard the modern perimeter 4 at all. Which is why the staff has played him pretty much exclusively at the 5.
He's a stretch 5. That's who he is.
OK, "bubble team" because JWash starts at the 5.? Yeah, you go with that... bless your heart.
Yesterday you upvoted a guy who said he's been watching Washington since middle school and he believes Washington is currently a project because of how bad his lateral movement has been since the surgeries.
That is NOT why I liked the post.I liked it because it spoke to what he CAN be. I fully realize the challenges he faces and has faced. He was easily the gem/steal of that class for us.
Seriously bro, get off your agenda horse. It's getting really old.
Unless he makes vast improvements from this year he isn't even close to a starting 5 for any major conference team much less for a contender.
When you see Hubert bring in a big time 5 from the portal it will tell everyone how they feel about his ability.
I'm not saying he can't be serviceable as a player but as an impact starting 5 thats naive.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't point to an agenda we maybe right or you could be right but you are in the minority on this one.
As I said before we shall see.
GG was never going to be here for a second year regardless. He is playing well for the Grizzlies. Good luck to him, looks like a bright future. I would of loved to have had him for the one year though, if he wanted to actually play that college year, which is a question ?
That would not have been his 2nd year. He reclassed. It would have been his 1st year at Carolina
Literally nobody asked you.
That may be one of the dumbest takes I've read on here. Just wow.
I have little doubt that we will bring in a transfer Big, given that we only have JWash and High (who may himself make a big Sophomore leap) as potentially returning 5s, and an incoming Freshman who is developmental. Ideally it would be someone with complementary strengths.
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@gary-7 What do you think Jalen can become at UNC? I’m just curious. I’m not asking for a player comp necessarily but what role/numbers do you expect him to be/produce?
There’s a path for UNC to be good if he’s a starter but that has to be like a Deon Thompson situation where he’s the 4th or 5th option as a starter on a loaded starting 5.
The 2010 team really struggled and it was in part because Deon Thompson was depended on to produce as a 1 or 2 option. Not saying Jalen will he asked to do that next year.
I think if the team is dependent on Jalen Washington’s production, we’re talking about a team that has a low floor and low ceiling.
There’s a path for UNC to be good if he’s a starter but that has to be like a Deon Thompson situation where he’s the 4th or 5th option as a starter on a loaded starting 5.
The 2010 team really struggled and it was in part because Deon Thompson was depended on to produce as a 1 or 2 option. Not saying Jalen will he asked to do that next year.
I think if the team is dependent on Jalen Washington’s production, we’re talking about a team that has a low floor and low ceiling.
Do people really expect that? We hope for him to be that good, sure, but we haven't yet seen enough to make us expect Armando-level play. And that's why a lot of us are concerned.
Before JWash was injured, his ceiling was tremendous. Now we just don't know. This past year was more of a freshman season. Not exactly your take, but similar. If it actually had been his first year, and he had never been injured, we'd be really excited - based on the flashes we saw this season. We'd expect him to make a huge sophomore leap.
Now? Who knows? But it's clear we all think we need a starter-quality player in his position(s). Or 2 - definitely 2 if Ingram leaves.
My best guess is that he can start and play well. But will he be one of the best starters on the team, or the 5th best starter (somebody has to be the 5th best starter)? Who knows. And if he is the 5th best starter, how far can the 2024-25 team go?
If RJ and Harrison both leave...
Cadeau
Seth - Ian
Drake
Withers
Washington - High
That's 2 freshman - with all the good and bad that implies - and 5 returners who have mostly under-performed expectations at Carolina.
If we add Tyson and Wolf, that looks a whole lot better. But it isn't enough.
With RJ and Harrison back, in addition to Tyson and Wolf - and maybe 1 more big who fits well - then I'll relax.
I don’t expect Washington to come in and give us what Mando gave us. I know he can’t. That’s exactly why I think we need to get a couple of elite bigs from the portal. Because I want someone to come in and give us what Mando gave us.
So then, do you like anything about any of our players. Your insults are better left unsaid as there is only your opinion involved in the process...
So then, what makes you believe that those two players are leaving? It looks like both of them are staying put at UNC.
Well, I'll address that directly to your Deon Thompson example.
Offensively, JWash is quite simply a LARGE step better than Deon ever was. He has a pure 3-point stroke and his midrange turnaround and face-up jumper is unblockable and very high-percentage. Sorry, but to be perfectly frank, it makes my head hurt that anyone who has watched him can't see what should be so obvious. The skills I just mentioned are NBA level.
Also, unlike Mando, he can finish above the rim inside. Granted, he needs to continue developing his strength and recovering his footwork there, but JWash is both legitimately tall and a "long" 6'10. If he can add a consistent jump-hook this summer, watch out. And if (knock on wood) EC returns, he will get the rock when and where he can do something with it.
So, this idea that JWash would have to be a 4th or 5th option is just a false premise. Deon is less comparison than contrast.
Look, with all that said, the concerns that folks have raised here on the defensive end are legitimate, and concern me as well. I am hopeful he will take another step in that area, but I also think it would be prudent to bring in a complementary Big who can bang and defend. However, it continues to astound me that some can't recognize the unique offensive dimension JWash brings to the table.
In the off season, peeps always pick a player and say, If Player X starts for us, we will suck....They said it about Luke and now they say it about JWash! The only actual evidence for or against this take is the clearly steep development curve he already showed us so....the more sensible expectation is he will continue to improve! One more piece of evidence is our coach clearly will not play peeps he thinks aren't ready for their role! Therefore, If JWash is our starting 5 (or 4) it means he has improved as much as we need him to, he has beaten all others at his position, AND he has proven worthy in practice!
I believe JWash will get starter level minutes next season AND I believe we will get a wing who can shoot and a Big who can step in at 5! I also believe our team will remain at the top of the ACC and once again, be numbered as a contender nationally!
I believe JWash will get starter level minutes next season AND I believe we will get a wing who can shoot and a Big who can step in at 5! I also believe our team will remain at the top of the ACC and once again, be numbered as a contender nationally!
How can it make one’s head hurt - that other people can’t see - what hasn’t actually even occurred yet?
If JWash is all you’ve said he is…surely hubs and the other coaches see it too every day in practice and in games. Why then if these wonderful reliable consistent offensive skills already exist and are on display, consistently executed by JWash: 1) WHY didn’t he get more playing time this year and 2) WHY didn’t he put up better numbers when he was in the game?
Or are you saying that the coaches and other fans cannot see what you believe JWash can BECOME?
Otherwise - what other fans are saying about “let’s wait and see what JWash turns into, if he can make the vast improvement necessary to be a starter on a D1 title contender” is entirely rational.
To rely on JWash without targeting someone at least as good as him in the portal (who will likely be front runner to start at 5 spot) is coaching malpractice. Or do you think Hubs has already screwed up in not playing Jwash more?
He was a zero factor on defense and rebounding, for how big he is. That alone means you are playing with 4 guys defending 5. Unless JWash makes a giant improvement in that area - him starting is not viable imo.
Watch that shot (and BTW, the coaches know). His offense is not the problem. So, folks not seeing THAT is what makes my head hurt. The question marks are on the other end. That simple,
And for the record, c'mon --- he was far from a "zero factor" in rebounding and defending.
The post you quoted was not an insult.
"But he can't guard the modern perimeter 4 at all. Which is why the staff has played him pretty much exclusively at the 5.
He's a stretch 5. That's who he is."
If the coaches see what they should see then they see a player that is developing. Fans tend to take a player as he is right now and when they look forward they see the same player they see right now. Coaches don't look at things that way, a coach looks at a player today with the view of what I think he will be a year from now, 2, 3, 4 years from now. Do you recall Bacot as a freshman, because if you do you saw a kid that showed us those flashes of what the future held but the freshman Bacot was not nearly the Bacot we see today. Look at Seth, when his first season with us ended, many, most IMO, had pretty much written him off, can't shoot, heart not broken if he leaves, now look after this past season no one seems to want him to leave and he still struggles as a jump shooter? LOL
I see a absolute NBA level skill in Jalen, kids that long that have that sweet a shooting stroke do not grow on trees. Defensively, for sure has a lot of work that needs to be put in, he needs to yet again spend mucho time in the weight room but most of what he needs can be taught, hopefully we can now establish a defensive approach and not change it 2 or 3 times in season?
You ask why Jalen didn't put up more numbers when he was in the game? Well he did lead this team in shooting %, not just led but led by a LOT! So the easy answer is/was/will be for him to put up more shots. But when he came in games, in his 8mins of playing time, he didn't come in hunting his shot, we used to praise a kid for doing that, I guess that is one of those things that is backwards from what things sued to be. He needs more minutes and in those minutes he needs to work for position that allows him to get his shot off within his comfort.
I doubt anyone would deny, I spent this whole season begging for Jalen to get more minutes and getting hard push back for it! But I NEVER, not one time have I asked for Jalen to start for us, not last season and not next season, I have simply asked for the same thing and that is decent minutes. I feel like he should get 16-22mins a game next season and I do strongly feel his defense will improve at least enough to allow those minutes. Imagine my surprise now seeing posters actively calling for Jalen to get more minutes and some going well past what even I have been wanting to see.
I will say the same darn thing I have been saying, I don't know if he can become a starter for us, I don't know who we may portal in, I don't know how much Jalen can improve, guess what, I am not alone there, no one else knows any more than I do.
Gary, watching Jalen VERY closely, I noticed 2 real problems with him, first is stamina, I did notice a drop off after 3-4mins of constant play, which is understandable from missing so much conditioning time with injuries, rehabbing is NOT conditioning. The second thing I noticed he was confused a LOT on the defensive end, comes from not playing all that much prior to coming to UNC as well as Hubert still tinkered with his defensive approach. Jalen would be playing drop and every one else was switching happened a lot. Jalen just is not going to be a guy that is going to do real well guarding 1-3 35ft from the basket, surprise, same is true for the vast majority of guys as long as he is, so to expect him to be able to do that as a re-classiified level kid as Bacot could as a 5th yr guy is crazy in my view.
I love these folks that try to tell me that since his injury Jalen has lost most of his lateral movement? And you saw him play against ACC level players how pre-injury, you saw him play pre-injury when again? LOL He played 7 games as a high school soph before a shoulder injury took him out for the rest of that season? Folks have a funny way of knowing things before they can actually be seen, no wonder Ms Cleo is out of a job...
Oh you and your silly well-thought out, logical, well presented, fact-based posts! Those types of posts (seem to) have no place here!
Where are the insults? Where is the name calling, fandom-questioning, know-it-all condescension and the dreaded, "you're a troll" elements of your take?🙄
Sarcasm aside, Great post Sir!
Yeah, and assuming he comes back, the staff will need to dial in a defensive approach with his physical status in mind. We all know it's no secret that his defensive limitations thus far have been footwork away from the basket and physical (especially lower body) strength in the post. And yes, I imagine his stamina will improve markedly in coming months,
It's possible we play screens differently, it's possible we could "front" more in the post, etc, etc... but it's also possible that he makes another physical leap over the summer. All that is to be figured out and remains to be seen. As I said, it would be nice to pick up a physical banger to rotate in with him.
What gets me is the message-board hysterics that it would be an automatic disaster if he ends up being our starter. I mean, reality check: How many 5s are there without weaknesses in college ball? It's highly doubtful the next Wilt Chamberlain is walking thru the door. There are/will be however some Bigs who could help us as rotation guys.
" LARGE STEP BETTER THAN DEON" ?
Sorry, Don't follow that train of thought.
Deon was a bucket off the glass from 8'-12'
He also had tremendous footwork and understood angles and spacing.
Washington has a pure jumpshot and more range but he can't dribble at all right now.
Today, he is not even close to what Deon was offensively.
I think you’re wrong here. JW is a soph & you're thinking of Deon as a senior. If given 20 min a game, I think you’ld see a different Jalen than what you think we have. No one is saying he doesn’t need work defensively, but that will come. He has offensive skills for a big man we haven’t had in a while. Armando didn’t dunk on anyone in 5 years the way JW flushes it in a crowd, & he can shoot. Let’s look at the glass half full, it’s more fun that way.
I was thinking Deon as a Freshman starting at Arizona in a game that Brandon Wright was sick. Deon dropped a double/ double that game. I am also thinking 2009 when Hansbrough missed some games to begin. The year, and Deon averaged 18/12 in those games. I am thinking his footwork as a 300lb hs player was better than Jalens as a College Soph
I know exactly which Deon I am referring too when I say he was substantially better than JWASH has been offensively as a Tar Heel.
Anything J Wash gives us next year or as a Senior, is not even a talking point in this conversation, because it hasn't happened yet.
I hope it does, and I will toot his horn to High heaven.
My comparison wasn’t Deon Thompson. I think Jalen has more game than Deon.
My point is that for this team to be really good next year, it will likely take Washington being more of Deon Thompson’s role in 2009. Not his role in 2010.
I think if our team is dependent on Jalen Washington on really either end on the floor, it’s probably a team with a limited ceiling. If he’s the 4th or 5th option, then we may have something.
I never compared them as players. I compared roles.
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