Could the change of offensive philosophies be the biggest reason for this lean season?

[IDUNK4HEELS]

For 60 years from Dean Smith to Roy Williams the offense has always played two bigs down in the paint with the results being that many of those teams leaded the nation in rebounds or close to the top season after season. Also forwards went to the line more because they were shooting from in close instead of launching shots from way out.

I do believe this is probably the reason Nance who is a natural five is going thru a shooting slump as he is playing out of position at the four. Last year he averaged 12 points a game with his back to the basket 🧺 playing mostly in the paint 🎨.

Bacot has been taking a beating on both sides of the ball 🏀 being most of the time the only rebounder although Black has been helping as of late.

Also as of late many of the opposing teams are getting second and sometimes third chances to score because Bacot CANNOT GET EVERY REBOUND.

I can not be the only one that have noticed that Bacot is not getting a ton of touches down low because opponents are jamming the lane with extra defenders daring the Carolina guards to punish them by hitting some outside bombs shots and except for the Clemson game has been a very successful strategy . People unknowlegable of the game have complained unfairly about Love and Davis taking so many outside shots but if Bacot being double teamed and the wings not helping with the scoring the guards are LEFT WITH CARRYING THE TEAM.

The spread offense worked last season because a 5 year player in Manek gave the Tar Heels a additional offensive weapon and a team team leader which is so missing this season. This year except for a few times the wing players regardless if they are starters or coming off the bench have not contributed like Manek did game after game.

It is probably too late to go back to the system that worked for so long this season but I started this thread 🧵 to get other people’s opinions if they feel the NBA strategy that Coach Davis implemented last year should be used with the personnel he has this year instead of the two men in the paint 🎨 offensive set.

This is Coach Davis’s team to coach and lead in the way he feels will result best for his team and I for one would hate to have his job following the success Coach Williams had but he has kept his head high and his attitude positive during this difficult transition time.

 

[IDUNK4HEELS]

After watching the State game I still believe Carolina with the current personnel (very little scoring on a consistent basis from their wings) would be better off playing with a two bigs instead of the NBA spread offense.

It is so UNFAIR to expect Davis, Bacot and Love to score 20 points apiece each time out and without a fourth scorer I would prefer the team’s forwards shoot layups than long corner threes.

The system worked great for 60 years and without proven wing scorers the team should probably go back to that system…

 

[al would]

The system worked great for 60 years and without proven wing scorers the team should probably go back to that system…

I think you might be preaching to the choir ID as you're certainly not the first one on here to question that stupid 4 out offense. It might have a chance of being mildly successful if you had players that could consistently hit outside shots but there are currently none of them on this roster, at least none getting decent PT. We just have people standing around out in the corners being irrelevant for much of anything. No shots, no rebounds, no movement for screening. Basically relegate your offense to 3 on 5 and it's shows in the scoring and (lack of) offensive production.

 

[strummingram]

This team just doesn't make many shots.

 

[blazers]

We're also in the low 300's out of low 300's in 3PT FG%. That doesn't help draw defenders out of the paint. The secondary break isn't a thing anymore, so that won't help big get bunnies either.

 

[RP12]

The fact is our spacing in the half court has been a problem since Cam and Maye left. This group has to hit threes to create space since there is no PG on the roster.

 

[tarwhiz]

For 60 years from Dean Smith to Roy Williams the offense has always played two bigs down in the paint with the results being that many of those teams leaded the nation in rebounds or close to the top season after season. Also forwards went to the line more because they were shooting from in close instead of launching shots from way out.

I do believe this is probably the reason Nance who is a natural five is going thru a shooting slump as he is playing out of position at the four. Last year he averaged 12 points a game with his back to the basket 🧺 playing mostly in the paint 🎨.

Bacot has been taking a beating on both sides of the ball 🏀 being most of the time the only rebounder although Black has been helping as of late.

Also as of late many of the opposing teams are getting second and sometimes third chances to score because Bacot CANNOT GET EVERY REBOUND.

I can not be the only one that have noticed that Bacot is not getting a ton of touches down low because opponents are jamming the lane with extra defenders daring the Carolina guards to punish them by hitting some outside bombs shots and except for the Clemson game has been a very successful strategy . People unknowlegable of the game have complained unfairly about Love and Davis taking so many outside shots but if Bacot being double teamed and the wings not helping with the scoring the guards are LEFT WITH CARRYING THE TEAM.

The spread offense worked last season because a 5 year player in Manek gave the Tar Heels a additional offensive weapon and a team team leader which is so missing this season. This year except for a few times the wing players regardless if they are starters or coming off the bench have not contributed like Manek did game after game.

It is probably too late to go back to the system that worked for so long this season but I started this thread 🧵 to get other people’s opinions if they feel the NBA strategy that Coach Davis implemented last year should be used with the personnel he has this year instead of the two men in the paint 🎨 offensive set.

This is Coach Davis’s team to coach and lead in the way he feels will result best for his team and I for one would hate to have his job following the success Coach Williams had but he has kept his head high and his attitude positive during this difficult transition time.

I have said it in many threads. Roys offensive scheme was just fine, and with the right personell is was GREAT!
I Hate the New scheme and I am not sure I will like it even if we have 12 five Star players on the roster. It is boring, individualistic basketball. I don't watch the NBA any longer for this exact reason.

 

[JimmyNaismith]

The offense is average by UNC standards in the 3pt era. The problem with this team is that they are the SECOND-WORST DEFENSIVE TEAM we’ve had in the 3pt era.

 

[al would]

The offense is average by UNC standards in the 3pt era. The problem with this team is that they are the SECOND-WORST DEFENSIVE TEAM we’ve had in the 3pt era.

So what you're saying is they're lazy ... maybe feel entitled .. yup .. and it's been on display the entire season from the tip. One of the most effortless teams I've watched in 60 years going back to black and white TV and sailing with the pilot. The "run it backward" season.

 

[gkss]

Yes! This team gets very little transition buckets and offensive stick backs because our rotation is thin and it requires beating your opponent down the court. Too much dribbling, and free lancing leading to bad shots that we shoot at a low percentage, and drives to the bucket that produce contested layups that we usually don’t make. This disaster is like a flat tire- not going anywhere unless you change it. We have to define the roles of our bench, and play up tempo. Leakey Black has got to away from the three point line. He’s athletic enough to drive, kick, and post. Just my opinion- I could keep going, but this has been disappointing to watch- especially since it doesn’t seem that adjustments have been made to correct our play. I hear all the time that we don’t make shots. I feel that we would make more shots if we took “good” shots. And we desperately need some easy buckets in transition!

 

[tarwhiz]

The offense is average by UNC standards in the 3pt era. The problem with this team is that they are the SECOND-WORST DEFENSIVE TEAM we’ve had in the 3pt era.

I would agree with this.
Jimmy are you as stunned as I am that with all these deficiencies on both sides of the ball, we have only really been run out of the gym one time this season
( Wake) The IU game had the makings of a rout with that atmosphere, but they just were not shooting it well from outside then either.
We have been in EVERY game, but still ZERO quad 1 wins.

 

[JimmyNaismith]

I would agree with this.
Jimmy are you as stunned as I am that with all these deficiencies on both sides of the ball, we have only really been run out of the gym one time this season
( Wake) The IU game had the makings of a rout with that atmosphere, but they just were not shooting it well from outside then either.
We have been in EVERY game, but still ZERO quad 1 wins.

It’s a good point, but I think that our outstanding rebounding is what has kept it close. We can’t aim the gun well, but rebounding gives us more bullets.

 

[ChiShankCity]

I don't think we're good enough to beat teams with 2's (mainly because we're bad defensively). We need to make shots to win. We haven't made shots all year.

 

[Bubspub88]

The offense is average by UNC standards in the 3pt era. The problem with this team is that they are the SECOND-WORST DEFENSIVE TEAM we’ve had in the 3pt era.

I bet if you looked at any of the metrics that involve the effort and "want to" you will find this team grades poorly. How many times do you see a guy get beat on D or make a turnover and just give up? UNC has gotten blistered by opponents in transition because of brain fart passes or poor floor spacing resulting in no one in position to get back. Talent on paper is nice, but it needs help. Effort and execution are critical.

 

[DSouthr]

I think you might be preaching to the choir ID as you're certainly not the first one on here to question that stupid 4 out offense. It might have a chance of being mildly successful if you had players that could consistently hit outside shots but there are currently none of them on this roster, at least none getting decent PT. We just have people standing around out in the corners being irrelevant for much of anything. No shots, no rebounds, no movement for screening. Basically relegate your offense to 3 on 5 and it's shows in the scoring and (lack of) offensive production.

Exactly and spot on! We do NOT have the players to play the 4 out, those we may have need time to develop (Jalen and Nickel). The quote from your post " We just have people standing around out in the corners being irrelevant for much of anything. No shots, no rebounds, no movement for screening. Basically relegate your offense to 3 on 5 and it's shows in the scoring and (lack of) offensive production." We are basically having to play offense 3 on 5 and that simply makes ZERO common sense.

To IDs question of this thread, is the 4 out and I would add the initiate the offense with Bacot at the top of the key (that proved a waste on the Portland road trip) is a major concern. IN season you may have to tweek your process to better fit your personel but major change in season is very disruptive. You want to work the same system from the beginning of practice all the way thru, allowing a constant message, and allowing players to go thru their practices within the same system, else guys get confused because the message becomes muddled.

It is also very important to note, Miami hit us hard but in the end we did lower the scoring margin but most of our losses were close games that we lead very late in the game and just had a bad few minutes that dictated the loss. Point being, we were in with a very solid chance to win late in our losses, even having to play way to much 3 on 5 offense and 2 of our big 3 scorers not being consistent game to game. That is pretty impressive when you think about it but it is as well dishearting in that we have to play with that disadvantage, that is why I am looking at the moves by our coaching staff with such a critical eye. Everyone talks about not having Manek this season but it was not Manek that was the difference last season, it was what Manek represented that was so important, he was that 4th scorer, it is just easier and more productive to play offense 4 on 5 as opposed to 3 on 5. Nance, good kid but he is a mill stone on the necks of this offense, he bogs it down because he has not produced in the role he was brought in for (because he is asked to play a role he is not well suited for).

 

[ACokeForRoy]

That system can still work but you need wings that can score from the outside to force defenses to come out and play them and not double down on Armando. Right now we don't have a wing that can consistently do that. So defenses are hedging there bets. Who is our Cam Johnson? Who is our Wayne Ellington? Who is our Justin Jackson?

 

[gosburn]

The offensive philosophy seems to avoid running for easy buckets. Spread out and only set a ball screen at the top of the three point line. When that doesn't work go one on one for a tough shot.

I hate the "offense"

 

[vbrs]

I have said it in many threads. Roys offensive scheme was just fine, and with the right personell is was GREAT!
I Hate the New scheme and I am not sure I will like it even if we have 12 five Star players on the roster. It is boring, individualistic basketball. I don't watch the NBA any longer for this exact reason.

 

[vbrs]

I agree with this

 

[DSouthr]

For 60 years from Dean Smith to Roy Williams the offense has always played two bigs down in the paint with the results being that many of those teams leaded the nation in rebounds or close to the top season after season. Also forwards went to the line more because they were shooting from in close instead of launching shots from way out.

I do believe this is probably the reason Nance who is a natural five is going thru a shooting slump as he is playing out of position at the four. Last year he averaged 12 points a game with his back to the basket 🧺 playing mostly in the paint 🎨.

Bacot has been taking a beating on both sides of the ball 🏀 being most of the time the only rebounder although Black has been helping as of late.

Also as of late many of the opposing teams are getting second and sometimes third chances to score because Bacot CANNOT GET EVERY REBOUND.

I can not be the only one that have noticed that Bacot is not getting a ton of touches down low because opponents are jamming the lane with extra defenders daring the Carolina guards to punish them by hitting some outside bombs shots and except for the Clemson game has been a very successful strategy . People unknowlegable of the game have complained unfairly about Love and Davis taking so many outside shots but if Bacot being double teamed and the wings not helping with the scoring the guards are LEFT WITH CARRYING THE TEAM.

The spread offense worked last season because a 5 year player in Manek gave the Tar Heels a additional offensive weapon and a team team leader which is so missing this season. This year except for a few times the wing players regardless if they are starters or coming off the bench have not contributed like Manek did game after game.

It is probably too late to go back to the system that worked for so long this season but I started this thread 🧵 to get other people’s opinions if they feel the NBA strategy that Coach Davis implemented last year should be used with the personnel he has this year instead of the two men in the paint 🎨 offensive set.

This is Coach Davis’s team to coach and lead in the way he feels will result best for his team and I for one would hate to have his job following the success Coach Williams had but he has kept his head high and his attitude positive during this difficult transition time.

Saw this old thread and thou I did add in it a lot of how I still see as what went wrong this season, wanted to add a bit to that.

First, critical mistake #1 was going in to a season installing a variation of the 4 out we tried to use the season before, you can call it a major tweek or a new version of offense. Initiating the offense from the top of the key and many times NOT A SINGLE TARHEEL's FEET TOUCHED THE PAINT. I see that as a 5 out and pretty different than the 4 out with Manek style we played last season. My point is we went in to the season with a offense that Hubert felt "could work" not does work but "COULD". You DO NOT go in to a season looking to experiment with a scheme that you do not know works and you darn sure don't go in to a scheme that requires big time shooters when you are having to hide 2 of your starters because they are weak jump shooters. Any notion to me that forces your center to be a 3pt marksman is going to be a problem in a college game. So the Portland road trip happened, VT took us before we could get in much badly needed practice time. But after that we went back to the 4out version we ended last season with but still we did that trying to hide 2 weak jump shooting starters, WHY, when you are already having to hide Leaky and nance on the offensive end, why?

So to end the season, maybe because of injury to Bacot we went to more of a high low (more a Roy type of look) and that did help some but by the time we got to that point the team had nearly checked out, just to many major changes, kids need stability rather than all this tinkering and experimentation, it has left them confused and losing.

This needs to be solved and Hubert has to have a rock solid plan in place, a scheme that works for the college game and he needs to use his bench to develop players for the future, there is ZERO excuse for playing the starters the kind of minutes they did this season, there is no way I could defend our doing that. I am actually beginning to wonder if Hubert understands the over all game well enough to teach kids how to play it successfully (and frankly, that thought should NEVER cross my mind about a UNC basketbal head coach), he has failed for most of his first season and pretty much this last one entirely, I am watching middle school level mistakes, has me really concerned, next season will be interesting for sure.

 

[al would]

First, critical mistake #1 was going in to a season installing a variation of the 4 out we tried to use the season before, you can call it a major tweek or a new version of offense. Initiating the offense from the top of the key and many times NOT A SINGLE TARHEEL's FEET TOUCHED THE PAINT.

That should have been the BIG ASS ELEPHANT in the room right there. if guys can't hit outside shots you have to create movement and screens to get them CLOSER TO THE BASKET. Doubt that it would have mattered much though cause Bacot (bless his heart) was like a junked car in the lane .. just taking up space and his rebounding stats should come with an asterisk because a helluva lot of the rebounds came from a "team" that shot 30% from 3 in a season and more than once he was rebounding his own bricks.
Let's just call this season for what it was. The talent level was not there. The "coaching" and o/d concepts for the available talent sucked even worse. The lack of player use and development YOY sucked worse than the "players" effort. Bottom line is this years lack of effort and team play ranks right down there with the Doh chit show and it was a complete disaster from hubcap down to the walk-ons .. and even Maye deserved better.

 

[DSouthr]

That should have been the BIG ASS ELEPHANT in the room right there. if guys can't hit outside shots you have to create movement and screens to get them CLOSER TO THE BASKET. Doubt that it would have mattered much though cause Bacot (bless his heart) was like a junked car in the lane .. just taking up space and his rebounding stats should come with an asterisk because a helluva lot of the rebounds came from a "team" that shot 30% from 3 in a season and more than once he was rebounding his own bricks.
Let's just call this season for what it was. The talent level was not there. The "coaching" and o/d concepts for the available talent sucked even worse. The lack of player use and development YOY sucked worse than the "players" effort. Bottom line is this years lack of effort and team play ranks right down there with the Doh chit show and it was a complete disaster from hubcap down to the walk-ons .. and even Maye deserved better.

Al, gonna disagree, respectfully, but I actually believe the talent was there, I do still believe we had national championship level talent, especially after what has already occurred in the NCAAT. I do not believe it was a lack of talent, I believe it was more not having players able to play toward their individual strengths. Look, if I said I think we should have used Bacot as a 2 guard and RJ should have been our center, you would line up to scream I have gone insane, you would be right by the way! LOL

But isn't that exactly what we watched, Leaky stationed in the deep corner? Nance, a center, stationed and I guess told to stay there 5ft past the 3pt arch and the ball on the OTHER side of the court??? Trimble of all players is put in at the 2, you know the proper term for the 2 guard spot don't ya, it is "SHOOTING GUARD"? You put what may be the weakest jump shooter on the team, a guy that makes Leaky look like Dante in at the 2 guard position and think that is in some way going to work out well? Oh, here is a ditty for ya, have Bacot on the floor in a 5 out look? Not making that up, it actually did happen! LOLOLOL Want another one (I could do this all day) how about a team is desperate need of scoring and VERY SPECIFICALLY in need of jump shooting, you keep a weak jump shooting 3 in the game and park a kid for nothing but spot seconds (minutes may be over statement) that set the state of VIRGINA ALL TIME SCORING MARK ? And, remember, I am not making this up, we watched it happen, when that kid decides screw this I am going someplace that I can at least get the chance to play, we all already know, we are going to now have to go to the portal and get a guy like the one we just lost to the very same freakin portal??? Guys, do you know who the keystone cops were, well the basketball version of key stone cops was this season of UNC basketball, how the heck we won as many games as we did is a mystery and a testament to guys like Caleb, who is now wanted to be gone by next season by most of the Tar Heel faithful? Man, this world is so bizzar...