Is it time to CONSIDER going back to playing two bigs in the blocks instead of running the spread offense….

[IDUNK4HEELS]

Consider is something to really think about.,Coaches Smith,Gut, Doherty and more recently Williams played the traditional two bigs and for 60 years that was the blueprint to many a victory and now it might be time to go back to it to turn the season around and this is why…

Washington showed us all last night that he can play really contribute down low and can step out and hit the short baseline jumper as well. Teaming him and Bacot together in the low blocks would mean easier shots in close and a ton of free throws. To quote Forrest Gump “I am not a smart guy” but to me shooting from a foot away is better than shooting 25 foot bombs 💣.

Secondly the spread offense was installed to give the guards more room to drive but the guards are not driving at all. Trimble went in three times early and ate rubber all three times but at least he went to the line once.
Davis also had some success driving but he as well only went to the line once. Love drove only a couple of times made a great pass to Washington for a dunk, got tied up on a drive and then he got fouled and made his one trip to the line. Dunn scored on a strong take from the right side but that was his only drive.

Thirdly without the third consistent outside shooter (Manek) the team has to rely on Davis and Love and occasionally Black for three pointers. Trimble and Puff for some reason hesitate on shooting the threes so except for a occasional sighting by Dunn the starting guards are feeling all of the pressure to carry the team from the outside and their shooting percentages are definitely showing it.

Just facts to CONSIDER and by no means a sure cure for the team and this is a Coach Davis’s squad to do with as he feels will lead to success but right now with the personnel on the team it just might be time to go back to the traditional two bigs and shoot layups from in close than trying to rain threes all night. Again it is something to just CONSIDER. What do you think?

 

[DSouthr]

ID, been saying this for most of this season. Look, is there any UNC fans alive today that believes that Manek and Nance play the same way, anyone, any of you reading this? I would hope not because they are 2 VERY different types of front court players. WE are trying to force a square Nance in to a round Manek hole, why not put him in a nice round Nance hole and stop trying to play him like we played Manek? Just because nance can hot a trey every now and then does not mean play him like we did Brady.

I get it, Hubert wants to play the stretch 4 deal, I get that is what he wants, problem is he does not have the players that fit it right, play your schemes to fit the players you have, if you want to play a different style, bring in players that fit that style of play you prefer. Brady is not walking thru that door with eligibility to play so as it applies to this season, how about we forget what we did with Manek on the team and focus in on what we may be able to do with Nance and Jalen on this team.

ID, you make a great point, the value of the 4 out stretch 4 deal is that it is suppose to draw defenders out of the paint, allow more room for Bacot to operate and open up driving lanes for the guards to have pathways to the basket. Well that really did not work last season and so far has not worked this season either. I don't care what the latest fad is and I don't care what they do in the NBA, this is college ball and what they do in the NBA does not work the same in college, very different quality of players over all.

With the players we do have we can go to a high low look and still have room inside deep but put nance at the high and his defender has to occupy him, Nance standing 40' from the basket and the ball on the other side of the court, his defender is not occupied with nance and you are not going to throw that skip pass over the entire defense from that far away, well Caleb would try (lol). If I am coaching against UNC, I am going to make Nance, Leaky, Seth beat me taking treys, if they make them I tip my hat and take the loss but they are not going to beat me often. I am not even going to run out at them, just going to get my guys in rebounding position and have them block out. But RJ and Caleb try to drive, I am pulling the above 3s defenders in to stone the drive.

 

[vbrs]

I agree with both of you guys. I seem to recall that this offense was implemented for recruiting purposes also. Is that why we are trying this? It doesn't seem to be working too well.

 

[ChiShankCity]

Every coach should tailor their system to the strengths of the players. But college basketball isn't like that. Coaches ultimately have control and they will emphasize that control.

It's clear that Nance isn't Manek so the offense shouldn't reflect the same offense. BUT, that one weird year where we had McAdoo and Hairston, and Brice was a freshman... Roy started McAdoo with DESMOND HUBERT or JOEL JAMES over PJ Hairston until February!!! It took Roy a long time to go away from his traditional 2 bigs to go more with a 4-out offense so McAdoo could play facing the basket more. Once we make the change in lineup, we went like 8-3 with the only losses being to Duke twice and the ACC title game.

We're talking about an offensive style, when the person who Hubert coached under literally played Desmond Hubert and Joel James over PJ Hairston. Where do you think Hubert may get some of his stubbornness from?

 

[FlaTarHeel]

Another good thread IDUNK.

That "outdated system" used by DES and RW cut the nets down 5 times, and without some untimely injuries it would have 2 or 3 more times.

Look, HD and staff are going to recruit well and may ultimately win on the last monday night of the season but he already has a blueprint, one he played for and the same one he sat under for nearly a decade. It would not have worked with the personnel in 2022 but he has the perfect duo(Bacot/Nance) to run that system in 2023.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" - Thomas Bertram Lance

 

[Grayhead]

Another good thread IDUNK.

That "outdated system" used by DES and RW cut the nets down 5 times, and without some untimely injuries it would have 2 or 3 more times.

Look, HD and staff are going to recruit well and may ultimately win on the last monday night of the season but he already has a blueprint, one he played for and the same one he sat under for nearly a decade. It would not have worked with the personnel in 2022 but he has the perfect duo(Bacot/Nance) to run that system in 2023.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" - Thomas Bertram Lance

I miss seeing Zeller run like a mad man for that easy dunk on the other end, like so many before him. Roy sped the game up. He wasn't the greatest in the half court, unless someone wemt zone, but he had the other team defense scrambling every rebound we made. That look ahead pass, or Lawson flaming down the court for a 1 man fast break was poetry in motion.

 

[dadika13]

No.

 

[Archer2]

Yes, for all the reasons listed above.

 

[DaveChapelle]

Consider is something to really think about.,Coaches Smith,Gut, Doherty and more recently Williams played the traditional two bigs and for 60 years that was the blueprint to many a victory and now it might be time to go back to it to turn the season around and this is why…

Washington showed us all last night that he can play really contribute down low and can step out and hit the short baseline jumper as well. Teaming him and Bacot together in the low blocks would mean easier shots in close and a ton of free throws. To quote Forrest Gump “I am not a smart guy” but to me shooting from a foot away is better than shooting 25 foot bombs 💣.

Secondly the spread offense was installed to give the guards more room to drive but the guards are not driving at all. Trimble went in three times early and ate rubber all three times but at least he went to the line once.
Davis also had some success driving but he as well only went to the line once. Love drove only a couple of times made a great pass to Washington for a dunk, got tied up on a drive and then he got fouled and made his one trip to the line. Dunn scored on a strong take from the right side but that was his only drive.

Thirdly without the third consistent outside shooter (Manek) the team has to rely on Davis and Love and occasionally Black for three pointers. Trimble and Puff for some reason hesitate on shooting the threes so except for a occasional sighting by Dunn the starting guards are feeling all of the pressure to carry the team from the outside and their shooting percentages are definitely showing it.

Just facts to CONSIDER and by no means a sure cure for the team and this is a Coach Davis’s squad to do with as he feels will lead to success but right now with the personnel on the team it just might be time to go back to the traditional two bigs and shoot layups from in close than trying to rain threes all night. Again it is something to just CONSIDER. What do you think?

1. We had Brooks, Bacot, Sharpe, and Kessler; an immense amount of big man talent. And our two big offense struggled to make the tournament and got blown out in the round of 64.

2. Jalen Washington struggles on defense because he's had 2 major knee surgeries and barely played any basketball over the last few years. You talk about what Washington can do on the block, but you don't talk about what he can't do on defense. He can't guard the modern stretch 4. He can't negotiate screens, he can't effectively defend the 3pt line, he can't cut on that twice repaired knee. Late in the game, when we still had a chance to beat UVA, Washington's defensive failure on a simple screen gave UVA a wide open dunk that put the game out of reach. He struggles enough playing defense as a center. He would get absolutely abused if we asked him to play the 4 (which is exactly what happened when Pete left 2 minutes into the Wake game, and Washington got destroyed in his only PF minutes of the season.)

3. Who are we playing these two big lineups with? Pete is hurt, Bacot is hurt, Washington can't play the 4, and Shaver is out for the season.

 

[DaveChapelle]

The game has changed. There may be certain games or certain situations where a traditional 2 big lineup is advantageous. But it's not cutting down any nets in this current era full of stretch 4s. We don't win the 2017 National Championship if we don't have Luke Maye draining 3s in Eastern Regionals. We don't win the 2017 NCAA Championship if we don't have Isaiah Hicks exceptional athleticism to defend on the perimeter. And the game has only evolved to be more perimeter oriented since then.

We don't make the Championship game last year without Manek bombing 3s. Kansas doesn't win the game without stretch 4 Jalen Wilson.

We'll find more and more that Leaky and Puff are better matchups for the modern stretch 4 than anyone else on our roster.

 

[Archer2]

Yeah, let’s just say eff it and live and die by the three.

 

[FlaTarHeel]

The game has changed. There may be certain games or certain situations where a traditional 2 big lineup is advantageous. But it's not cutting down any nets in this current era full of stretch 4s. We don't win the 2017 National Championship if we don't have Luke Maye draining 3s in Eastern Regionals.

Certain games, certain situations, and certain seasons like 2023.
Bacot/Nance running the traditional high/low offense. Nance foul-line extended with an occasional 3. That is another Final Four duo.

Luke Maye scored a grand total of 2 points in the 2017 Final Four.
He played great against Kentucky and made 2 3's. Tap the brakes and get back to reality. Traditional UNC bigs anchored that team(Meeks/Hicks) and neither was a modern day stretch 4.

 

[FlaTarHeel]

Yeah, let’s just say eff it and live and die by the three.

Yeah let's not.

 

[FlaTarHeel]

1. We had Brooks, Bacot, Sharpe, and Kessler; an immense amount of big man talent. And our two big offense struggled to make the tournament and got blown out in the round of 64.

Two green freshman with egos bigger than their games were at that point, and guard play that was just as green and immature.

 

[dadika13]

Yeah, let’s just say eff it and live and die by the three.

You realize there's a very large space in between playing two bigs on the blocks and live and die by the three? Eh, maybe you don't.

As with anything, it's more complicated than this simple this or that.

 

[ChiShankCity]

There's going to be a day where the NCAA emphasizes offensive 3 seconds and it will make having skilled big guys even more of a necessity.

 

[DaveChapelle]

Yeah, let’s just say eff it and live and die by the three.

You have a fundamental lack of understanding of basketball if you think that the only two ways to play are A) two traditional bigs or B) nothing but 3 pointers.

 

[DaveChapelle]

Certain games, certain situations, and certain seasons like 2023.
Bacot/Nance running the traditional high/low offense. Nance foul-line extended with an occasional 3. That is another Final Four duo.

Luke Maye scored a grand total of 2 points in the 2017 Final Four.
He played great against Kentucky and made 2 3's. Tap the brakes and get back to reality. Traditional UNC bigs anchored that team(Meeks/Hicks) and neither was a modern day stretch 4.

1. Luke Maye was the Eastern Regional MVP because of his play in the sweet sixteen and elite eight. He totalled 5 made 3-pointers between those games, and one very famous clutch shot that was just inside the 3pt line. We don't make the 2017 Final Four without stretch 4 Luke Maye's perimeter shooting.

2. Hicks had the athleticism to defend stretch 4s on the perimeter, and the offensive skills to drive the ball from the perimeter. You may recall his clutch basket in the national championship game where he took the ball from just inside the 3pt arc, dribbled all the way to the basket against tough defense and then hit a hanging shot to give us a 3pt lead.

The modern 4 isn't just about 3 point shooters like Manek or Maye. It's also about being able to defend out on the perimeter, and being able to dribble drive from the perimeter to the rim.

 

[tarwhiz]

1. Luke Maye was the Eastern Regional MVP because of his play in the sweet sixteen and elite eight. He totalled 5 made 3-pointers between those games, and one very famous clutch shot that was just inside the 3pt line. We don't make the 2017 Final Four without stretch 4 Luke Maye's perimeter shooting.

2. Hicks had the athleticism to defend stretch 4s on the perimeter, and the offensive skills to drive the ball from the perimeter. You may recall his clutch basket in the national championship game where he took the ball from just inside the 3pt arc, dribbled all the way to the basket against tough defense and then hit a hanging shot to give us a 3pt lead.

The modern 4 isn't just about 3 point shooters like Manek or Maye. It's also about being able to defend out on the perimeter, and being able to dribble drive from the perimeter to the rim.

All of this is true. I might add, and most Tar Heel fans are already aware that Roy used his bigs and Dean before him according to their strengths.
Jawad Williams could post, drive and shoot the 3. Marvin also played the 4 and could do all that Jawad could.
John Henson could post, and also get to the basket from the 3 point line with one dribble. Henson was not a 3 point shooter, but his last year he was automatic from 12-18 feet.
Henson is also the most equipped 4 man defensively that I have seen at Carolina. He was a shot blocker/ alterer extraordinaire and made up any ground lost to drivers, with his amazing reach.
I think the answer to the OP question is YES and NO. The perfect solution is to play two bigs, but they need to be versatile.
The days of starting Brad Daugherty, Warren Martin and Joe Wolf on the same front line is over, but that doesn't mean the new template power forward is Brady Manek.
I love Brady, and what he brought to last years team, but he couldn't defend or post like Henson. He couldn't drive and finish like Hansbrough.
In years past, fans have clamored for the " Stretch 4" I always responded by correcting them with " Skilled 4"
That is all any coach wants at the 4 spot.
Sharpe and Kessler were talented albeit GREEN 5's trying to play the 4 spot at Carolina. That did not work ad well as what a skilled 4 man like the names above would do for the offense.

 

[Archer2]

Yeah let's not.

You have a fundamental lack of understanding of basketball if you think that the only two ways to play are A) two traditional bigs or B) nothing but 3 pointers.

Obvious sarcasm. You’re so contentious.

 

[FlaTarHeel]

Obvious sarcasm. You’re so contentious.

I noted your sarcasm and followed with my own.
The comedian guy has other issues.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

To be a comedian, don't you have to say something funny....at least once in your life?

I think Hubs is one who will learn to cater his system to fit his personnel. I think right now he has some ill fitting pieces and some untimely injuries!

 

[ChiShankCity]

The modern 4 isn't just about 3 point shooters like Manek or Maye. It's also about being able to defend out on the perimeter, and being able to dribble drive from the perimeter to the rim.

This is really important. If you have a legitimate big who can switch on to guards and hold their own on an island, then you have a big advantage defensively. Kentucky is a mess right now for a lot of reasons but one of them is Tshiebwe cannot guard ball screens.

The more a 4 is comfortable playing on the perimeter on offense, the more likely he's going to be comfortable guarding on the perimeter on defense.

Anyways... Recruit skill

 

[RaulJones]

You would get more out of Nance too if you bring back the secondary break as well.

3s from the top of the key instead of the corners.

 

[DSouthr]

And the last thing you would define a Roy coached team's offensive approach would be stretch 4. Because a big man can hit a trey does not mean he should be camping out 40' from the basket, doesn't mean we have to run some NBA knock off iso scheme that has our guys camped outside of the action. Luke didn't do that, Luke did at times rotate outside, if I have a power forward that can shoot like Luke, I want him to rotate outside for clean looks, that is what Roy did.

What I don't like is coming down and watching 3 guys run directly to a position outside of the 3pt arch, 1 of our big men going down to the blocks and those 4 just occupying those same positions until the ball is shot. That is spreading our offense more than it is spreading the defense and that is no bueno.

What isn't working as well in todays game is having 2 back to the basket big men in together, like Sharp, Bacot, or Brooks and no one as a solid face up guy from mid range. That is what clogs the lane, that is what Luke was good at, not clogging the lane. Our middle paint stayed clogged with Brooks, he would not clear out with his defender in tow and was a black hole anytime the ball touched his hands and yet defenses wanted him to shoot mid range jumpers, there a reason for that as Roy would say.

You do not have to have a stretch 4 to win in todays game but what coach wouldn't love to have a power forward that can hit treys all day? LOL But what you want first is a power forward, then second one that can stroke it from outside, you want your power forward to be able to hit the mid range shots, nice if he can hit treys and post up but there is a reason they name the position "POWER" forward, you need a guy strong enough to hold his own inside the paint. Many of these stretchy guys do not fare well inside the paint or even as mid range guys. Brady battled hard at our 4 spot but truthfully, when it comes to playing inside the paint, I prefer Nance to Brady, will not be to long before I prefer Jalen to Nance.

This fad stuff makes me chuckle, I recall a day when if your team did not run the wishbone then you were not going to be able to win many college football games! Who runs the wishbone now days, who ran it in the NFL for that matter? But it was at one time the new thing that everyone had to do. Why not just be really good at executing what you do, that is what Dean did. Teams knew what UNC was going to do Dean knew they knew, he didn't care because he believed in doing what UNC does and the other team had to execute better than his team did and that didn't often happen. The last NCAA title won in the ACC was won by a team Roy coached and as I said, Roy was NEVER going to be confused with being a 4 or 5 out scheme guy.

 

[DSouthr]

This is really important. If you have a legitimate big who can switch on to guards and hold their own on an island, then you have a big advantage defensively. Kentucky is a mess right now for a lot of reasons but one of them is Tshiebwe cannot guard ball screens.

The more a 4 is comfortable playing on the perimeter on offense, the more likely he's going to be comfortable guarding on the perimeter on defense.

Anyways... Recruit skill

That makes absolutely no sense?

Because a guy can score from outside the 3pt arch then he will be able to guard PGs and 2s? Do you understand how nutz that is? Oh, Nance can hit treys so clearly there is no problem with him switching off to a PG defensively? Shaking my head, I really wish duke would hire YOU as their coach when they fire Scheyer! LOL

 

[ChiShankCity]

That makes absolutely no sense?

Because a guy can score from outside the 3pt arch then he will be able to guard PGs and 2s? Do you understand how nutz that is? Oh, Nance can hit treys so clearly there is no problem with him switching off to a PG defensively? Shaking my head, I really wish duke would hire YOU as their coach when they fire Scheyer! LOL

Yup, 100% accurate!

I actually didn't say anything about that a stretch-4 would be able to guard 1's and 2's. Also didn't say anything about Nance and certainly didn't say anything about him switching onto a PG.

I would agree that Duke would be in a pretty dire situation if they hired me as Scheyer's replacement, lol.

 

[ChiShankCity]

All of this is true. I might add, and most Tar Heel fans are already aware that Roy used his bigs and Dean before him according to their strengths.

I don't think anyone will debate that Roy coached to the big's strengths. But Roy also coached around his philosophy with 2 traditional bigs. That's why he started Desmond Hubert/Joel James over PJ Hairston for 2/3 of that season.

But almost every coach in the country is loyal to their system. I also think part of this argument has gotten lost. If people are saying we need 2 traditional big guys and they should never shoot perimeter jumpers, then that's probably just wrong. You just need to go through the past National Champs.

Kansas - Jalen Wilson was a 4 who could shoot 3's
Baylor - Started basically 4 guards
Virginia - Deandre Hunter was their 4
Villanova - Their top 7 in their rotation could shoot the ball from distance
UNC - The last team with 2 fairly traditional offensive bigs
Villanova - Basically started 4 guards if you counted Josh Hart as a guard
Duke - Justice Winslow was their 4

I'm not saying your offense needs to revolve around the 3-pointer. But the ability to stretch the floor at 4 positions seems pretty important in recent history. Hell, Baylor, Villanova, and Duke won their titles with arguably playing 4 guards (3 guards, and a wing). So more evidence of recent success with teams that played smaller than bigger.

 

[tarwhiz]

I don't think anyone will debate that Roy coached to the big's strengths. But Roy also coached around his philosophy with 2 traditional bigs. That's why he started Desmond Hubert/Joel James over PJ Hairston for 2/3 of that season.

But almost every coach in the country is loyal to their system. I also think part of this argument has gotten lost. If people are saying we need 2 traditional big guys and they should never shoot perimeter jumpers, then that's probably just wrong. You just need to go through the past National Champs.

Kansas - Jalen Wilson was a 4 who could shoot 3's
Baylor - Started basically 4 guards
Virginia - Deandre Hunter was their 4
Villanova - Their top 7 in their rotation could shoot the ball from distance
UNC - The last team with 2 fairly traditional offensive bigs
Villanova - Basically started 4 guards if you counted Josh Hart as a guard
Duke - Justice Winslow was their 4

I'm not saying your offense needs to revolve around the 3-pointer. But the ability to stretch the floor at 4 positions seems pretty important in recent history. Hell, Baylor, Villanova, and Duke won their titles with arguably playing 4 guards (3 guards, and a wing). So more evidence of recent success with teams that played smaller than bigger.

My point is simply the term " Stretch 4" is a bad term. " Skilled 4" is a much better term as Jawad, Marvin, Tyler, Isiah, Luke, all qualify for this moniker.
I don't necessarily think Manek does, but Maneks top skill of shooting the 3 ball and his intense competitiveness trumped his weakness as a defender and ball handler.
I think after Bacot moves on, Hubert will be looking to fill BOTH the 4-5 positions with these types of players listed above.
Whereas Roy always wanted at least 1 guy he could throw to in the post that was a bucket.

 

[FlaTarHeel]

That makes absolutely no sense?

Because a guy can score from outside the 3pt arch then he will be able to guard PGs and 2s? Do you understand how nutz that is? Oh, Nance can hit treys so clearly there is no problem with him switching off to a PG defensively? Shaking my head, I really wish duke would hire YOU as their coach when they fire Scheyer! LOL

I wish he would go to the dook board today and stay

 

[RaulJones]

What is the play that gives us an easy basket that teams have to defend that sets up the rest of the offense?