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JJ comes back unc will be better than Kensucky again

I do not recall, at least since K has been at duke that your program was seen as not NBA player friendly, in fact seems to me that duke always got a strong collection of highly rated players pretty much every year. I do not recall any point where duke struggled to get big time talent to the extent UNC has struggled for the last few years. So I honestly do not see any flip at all, I see duke continuing to get big time talent and UNC not getting the same level of talent we had been used to.
You really don't remember that...? I find that hard to believe because it wasn't that long ago. The Duke poster is right; not too long ago, the knock on K's program was that he'd bring in guys who excelled for Duke but weren't any good in the NBA (think Redick, Duhon, Sheldon Williams, guys like that.) That's definitely less true these days as more Duke guys are getting to, and excelling in, the NBA.
 
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You answered something different than what he asked. He asked why we think the 2010 title-winning Duke team was trash.

Not sure if you were joking when you replied this or not? He implied that I called our Henson as a freshman class a trash class and I did not, I said it was a disappointing class. That was the 2009 class, now they were freshmen in 2010. Re-read what he said, you will see what I am saying.
 
You really don't remember that...? I find that hard to believe because it wasn't that long ago. The Duke poster is right; not too long ago, the knock on K's program was that he'd bring in guys who excelled for Duke but weren't any good in the NBA (think Redick, Duhon, Sheldon Williams, guys like that.) That's definitely less true these days as more Duke guys are getting to, and excelling in, the NBA.

Well it isn't like duke players are leading their teams now either. Outside of Irving, who played very few games in his only season at duke, who else is a star today for them? Ochafor, heck of a job both on and off the court, led his team to the worst record in the league and lead the team in arrests, not sure that is the face that team is looking for?

Given the higher rated players are going to duke rather than UNC and yet still not much more than role players says to me not much has changed, kinda same thing Phil Jackson stated when discussing how ready duke players are to play in the NBA.
 
Not sure if you were joking when you replied this or not? He implied that I called our Henson as a freshman class a trash class and I did not, I said it was a disappointing class. That was the 2009 class, now they were freshmen in 2010. Re-read what he said, you will see what I am saying.

No, I believe THN was right. Although we'd need DevilBlue to confirm since he never actually quoted anyone. I believe he was referencing my comment:

A garbage Duke team won in 10

And responded with:

So rivalry aside I'm interested in how the 2010 team was trash? Hell they are basically Dukes version of your team this year(maybe not the most individual talent, but lots of guys who had played together and a good mix of talent and depth)

The fact that he says "Duke's version of your team this year" shows he was talking about a Duke team, which he equated to the 2016 UNC team.
 
Well it isn't like duke players are leading their teams now either. Outside of Irving, who played very few games in his only season at duke, who else is a star today for them? Ochafor, heck of a job both on and off the court, led his team to the worst record in the league and lead the team in arrests, not sure that is the face that team is looking for?

Given the higher rated players are going to duke rather than UNC and yet still not much more than role players says to me not much has changed, kinda same thing Phil Jackson stated when discussing how ready duke players are to play in the NBA.

I agree with this. Calling Irving a Duke product is essentially akin to saying Enes Kanter is a UK product. What did Irving play, 10 games at Duke? And other than that, what are they working with? Okafor was a disappointment this year, Parker is ok I guess but the jury is still out there, I'm sure Ingram will be better than both of them - but all are OADs and would have been where they are regardless of school attended. Onto longer tenured players: Mason Plums is an average NBA player, same with Reddick, Gerald Henderson and Kyle Singler suck...
 
You really don't remember that...? I find that hard to believe because it wasn't that long ago. The Duke poster is right; not too long ago, the knock on K's program was that he'd bring in guys who excelled for Duke but weren't any good in the NBA (think Redick, Duhon, Sheldon Williams, guys like that.) That's definitely less true these days as more Duke guys are getting to, and excelling in, the NBA.

Agreed. I think a lot of that was also due to the fact that UNC had so many high performing players in the NBA at the time compared to duke. Players like Carter, Wallace, Jamison, Stack, etc. were tearing it up in the NBA. You couldn't find duke players that reached that level other than Hill. UNC hasn't really had that kind of player in a long time and duke has put some solid players in the NBA since then. Combine that with their recent success and it has caused the tables to turn.
 
I agree with this. Calling Irving a Duke product is essentially akin to saying Enes Kanter is a UK product.
I think that's true, but that's not the perception that the recruits have. I would be willing to bet that most of these kids have no clue that Irving barely played at duke, they just know that he played at duke.
 
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I think that's true, but that's not the perception that the recruits have. I would be willing to bet that most of these kids have no clue that Irving barely played at duke, they just know that he played at duke.
Exactly. The college name next to his picture in his bio makes all the difference.
 
Call me a bit sour at the current state of affairs in CBB, but I really want to get another Jamison, Carter, Stack, Sheed, etc. kind of a player. I miss that real NBA talent we used to get constantly under Dean and Roy
 
Call me a bit sour at the current state of affairs in CBB, but I really want to get another Jamison, Carter, Stack, Sheed, etc. kind of a player. I miss that real NBA talent we used to get constantly under Dean and Roy
Beyond just us not getting real NBA talent.......no one is. I think I know why:

It's because none is coming through the pipeline, in general!! Think about it. Even these OAD guys really aren't becoming elite NBA stars. I can think of maybe three OADs that have become (what I'd consider) elite NBA stars: John Wall, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving. That's it!! Where are the next Kobe Bryants, LeBron James, and all that? It seems like the overall talent of these recruiting classes are just not very good anymore. Is it because of AAU? I don't know. But even the OAD-level guys that Duke and UK and KU are getting....they're not turning into megastars.
 
Beyond just us not getting real NBA talent.......no one is. I think I know why:

It's because none is coming through the pipeline, in general!! Think about it. Even these OAD guys really aren't becoming elite NBA stars. I can think of maybe three OADs that have become (what I'd consider) elite NBA stars: John Wall, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving. That's it!! Where are the next Kobe Bryants, LeBron James, and all that? It seems like the overall talent of these recruiting classes are just not very good anymore. Is it because of AAU? I don't know. But even the OAD-level guys that Duke and UK and KU are getting....they're not turning into megastars.

I agree with you there. Furthermore a lot of upcoming NBA stars are coming from smaller schools and they stayed three or four years- Curry, Damion Lillard, Kawhi Leonard, CJ McCollum, Klay Thompson, etc. Yeah a few of those Kentucky guys have done really well along with Irving, but most aren't really all that special. I think CBB should have a similar system as baseball. Make the jump to the pros from high school if you want, but if you go to college you gotta stay at least three years.
 
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Beyond just us not getting real NBA talent.......no one is. I think I know why:

It's because none is coming through the pipeline, in general!! Think about it. Even these OAD guys really aren't becoming elite NBA stars. I can think of maybe three OADs that have become (what I'd consider) elite NBA stars: John Wall, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving. That's it!! Where are the next Kobe Bryants, LeBron James, and all that? It seems like the overall talent of these recruiting classes are just not very good anymore. Is it because of AAU? I don't know. But even the OAD-level guys that Duke and UK and KU are getting....they're not turning into megastars.
I think Wiggins has a chance to become another one. Much too early to tell right now, but he's looking good so far.
 
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You really don't remember that...? I find that hard to believe because it wasn't that long ago. The Duke poster is right; not too long ago, the knock on K's program was that he'd bring in guys who excelled for Duke but weren't any good in the NBA (think Redick, Duhon, Sheldon Williams, guys like that.) That's definitely less true these days as more Duke guys are getting to, and excelling in, the NBA.

Actually, it goes back way before Redick, Duhon and Sheldon Williams. It goes back to Danny Ferry, Alaa Abdelnaby, Bobby Hurley, and even Laettner was chastised for it although he was a much better pro than he gets credit for. It certainly continued with Redick, Sheldon Williams and others. But I agree, the knock on duke for a long time was their inability to produce pros.

But let's be clear about something - duke has guys excelling in the pros but I tend to use a different language than "duke is producing good pros". Because Irving got next to nothing from duke. Parker got little from duke. Okafor got little from duke. If you went to school for one year, I'm not giving credit to the college program for much. Jabari Parker is essentially the same player today as he was his senior year of high school. I mean, what did Cal do for Anthony Davis that you couldn't have done for Anthony Davis.

So call it semantics or whatever, but duke has had successful pros come through duke. That's about as far as I'll take it.
 
Actually, it goes back way before Redick, Duhon and Sheldon Williams. It goes back to Danny Ferry, Alaa Abdelnaby, Bobby Hurley, and even Laettner was chastised for it although he was a much better pro than he gets credit for. It certainly continued with Redick, Sheldon Williams and others. But I agree, the knock on duke for a long time was their inability to produce pros.

But let's be clear about something - duke has guys excelling in the pros but I tend to use a different language than "duke is producing good pros". Because Irving got next to nothing from duke. Parker got little from duke. Okafor got little from duke. If you went to school for one year, I'm not giving credit to the college program for much. Jabari Parker is essentially the same player today as he was his senior year of high school. I mean, what did Cal do for Anthony Davis that you couldn't have done for Anthony Davis.

So call it semantics or whatever, but duke has had successful pros come through duke. That's about as far as I'll take it.
I could have showcased Anthony Davis by making him play pickup games from my backyard and I would have gotten him drafted first.
 
Beyond just us not getting real NBA talent.......no one is. I think I know why:

It's because none is coming through the pipeline, in general!! Think about it. Even these OAD guys really aren't becoming elite NBA stars. I can think of maybe three OADs that have become (what I'd consider) elite NBA stars: John Wall, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving. That's it!! Where are the next Kobe Bryants, LeBron James, and all that? It seems like the overall talent of these recruiting classes are just not very good anymore. Is it because of AAU? I don't know. But even the OAD-level guys that Duke and UK and KU are getting....they're not turning into megastars.


Irving might be the NBA's most overrated player. He's as soft and fragile as any player in the league, he's a volume scorer from the PG position, he's not really very good at getting teammates involved, he's a poor defender and he's not a winner. He just doesn't have a winning type of demeanor. Plus, LeBron has had some issues with him because of what is rumored to be a lackadaisical attitude.

John Wall is a good player and I'd take him over Irving, but I wouldn't say he's a "great" player either. Davis is a monster.

And you're correct in your assumption that it is AAU ball that is ruining these guys. They build them up and make them think they're all better than they are and that they all will be in the NBA one day. It's ridiculous.
 
Irving might be the NBA's most overrated player. He's as soft and fragile as any player in the league, he's a volume scorer from the PG position, he's not really very good at getting teammates involved, he's a poor defender and he's not a winner. He just doesn't have a winning type of demeanor. Plus, LeBron has had some issues with him because of what is rumored to be a lackadaisical attitude.

John Wall is a good player and I'd take him over Irving, but I wouldn't say he's a "great" player either. Davis is a monster.

And you're correct in your assumption that it is AAU ball that is ruining these guys. They build them up and make them think they're all better than they are and that they all will be in the NBA one day. It's ridiculous.
Yeah I mean like I said (or meant to say) those are the only three I can think of, and I think calling any of those three "elite" is a reach. And none of them are megastars. Youth basketball just isn't producing megastars right now.
 
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There is a 2 ton elephant in the room and no one seems to want to say it, so big mouth me is gonna! Now we have tap danced around the question of why Roy has not had more one & done players and the fact that Ky and duke are getting multiples of them every year now days. Many have themselves convinced it is because of the NCAA investigation, OK, there is some of that for sure but you guys know that ain't all of it, you do know that right?

We can all accept that UNC is not looked at as the most one & done friendly program out there, I hope no one disagrees with that statement. The real question is why is UNC looked at that way and honestly, it really is not hard to understand. But in order to understand it you have to take off your UNC fan hat and blue tinted glasses and look at this from the kid's point of view. I can give you 100s of reasons why a highly talented player should play for UNC but none of those things matter if they do not interest the kid. We want to talk about history but these kids are looking ahead, not back, we need to understand that.

So here is the 2 ton elephant that I already know is likely to piss off a lot of folks but I am gonna tell ya what you need to understand more so than what you want to hear. So lets go back in time, Roy just won his very first NCAA championship as a head coach with the help of a one & done player named Marvin Williams. Problem was we pretty much lost our entire team after that title winning season. IT looked bleak for the next season but hey, winning the title was well worth it.

Then we bring in this Kid named Tyler and he set the world on fire as a freshman and everywhere you could hear folks whisper after that freshman season, #50 will be one & done because he will go in the lotto. Well Tyler didn't go as a one & done, in fact he played 4 fantastic years for us and we loved him. Problem was on the recruiting trail the anti UNC folks were pitching, see how Roy held Tyler from the NBA? Not everyone bought that line of bull, we brought in a great class the very next season and Tyler ended up winning the natty his senior season but there were whispers, look Tyler was held back for 4yrs, Ty lawson was held out till he was a Jr, Ellington same thing, see we told ya Roy holds his players back. Heads did start turning, of course Brandan Wright being one & done helped but recruits started questioning.

But Roy brought in what appeared to be a mega class after that last natty, Henson, Dexter, the Wear twins and had Zeller and Ed Davis (who was also suggested should have been one & done but Roy held him back, the list grows). And in that class, can only be described as one of if not the single most disappointing class ever at UNC, up there with Fing & BMo for sure. That class not only did not live up to expectations but in that freshman season we had a NCAA record for games missed by players with injury. We had 2 season ending injuries to starters and most of our 2 deep roster missed games due to injury. Henson was our best player in that class but felt he was a wing and not a 4 and it was not until the NIT that he finally seemed to embrace his real position, Dexter really underwhelmed and Zeller got hurt early and sat most of the season. Many felt Dexter and Henson would very likely be one & done guys but they were not and yep, the rumors about Roy holding his player back from the NBA began to pick up steam. As Kalipari is making love to the one & done rule, rumors were of Roy holding his players out of the draft, portraying Roy as anti one & done player, which never was the case but the negative recruiting sure didn't tell you it was BS. But in the end Henson and Zeller along with Kendal and Reggie, we came close but Creighton decided they needed to take kendal out and we know the rest of that.

But here is where things really took a turn against us and began to feed the negative recruiting, we brought in (in Henson and Zeller's last season) James Michael McAdoo and PJ. Now don't know if you guys recall but I do, in that Micky D game JMM played in he was co-MVP along with Anthony Davis. It was like kaliparo got one and Roy got one, lets see who does best with his kid. JMM was absolutely considered to be a one & done level talent and he barely played his freshman season, understandable because he was behind Zeller and Henson but the deeper truth is JMM was not nearly the level of talent that Anthony Davis was. But fact and perception are 2 very different things. Even playing so little as a freshman there were still folks saying JMM would be a lotto guy if he comes out now, baffeled my mind but you guys saw it. JMM didn't go one & done or 2 and thru he left after a Jr season and frankly never really played up to anything close to his incoming hype. On the recruiting scene it was spun as JMM knew he better get out of there before he drops out of the draft totally, Roy has already caused him to drop out of the first round, dah dah dah dah dah.

WE got Harrison Barnes, finally the Roy is not one & done friendly rumors can stop, Barnes was the top player in his class and duke got kyri Irving who some as well felt was number 1. There is it again, like JMM and Anthony Davis we got Barnes and the dukies got Irving, lets see who does best by the kids and as we already know, Irving was hurt most of his freshman season but still went one & done and Barnes came back for his soph season. Yeah, Barnes came back because the the potential of a NBA lock out but the negative recruiting didn't find the need to mention that, just that yet again Roy held his player out of the draft, again, oh and by the way K didn't.

Now all the sudden the negative recruiters had a list of names they could roll off of who should have been one & done from UNC to compare to the list of names of players their school did see go one & done and not to mention in the mean while Ky wins a natty led by 3 freshmen and a couple short years later so does duke. You add in the you do want to play in the NCAA tourney and have a chance to win a =natty in your only season in college don't ya, what if UNC gets a post season ban in your only college season, better not risk that.

And there ya have it, a bunch of circumstances that on their on mean little but when spun together and crafted at the hands of someone looking to negatively recruit against UNC paints the picture these kids see today, that Roy is not a coach that helps you get in to the draft as quickly as kalipari or K or Self, or a few others. This being spoken by multiple school recruiters, not just duke or Ky but now everyone wants to use it against us, it has become epidemic.

Time cures all things, been a while since we had a absolute one & done kid, Jackson never was considered your prototype one & done mostly because he played in a private school league. The guys that were touted to be one & done but ended up not being that at UNC are not really guys being recruited today played with so it does not impact them as much when someone says JMM or Barnes, actually it may help us now considering they play in the NBA for Golden State, so they don't want to use those names against us any more. The NCAA clouds are parting, for the most part already have for men's basketball so that is not a thing they can hit us with either.

I think we will get a one & done from the 2017 class but it is really important perception wise for us to get more that the one & done we get actually becomes one and done. We do not need another name added to their list so they can see, look, there is another one!

WE have been branded as anti mega talented player and it is hard to lose a brand like that, Ky and duke have now branded themselves as one & done friendly and that brands feeds on itself. How we are branded is why we are not getting these top kids and why Ky and duke are, the truth does not matter if the lie is repeated enough times...Now the lie matters and that is going to take a while to correct...
D South - maybe best post I've ever seen on this board.

Only thing I'll add is I wish kids during recruiting would look closer at the FACTS - how often OADs (from UK, DOOK, or wherever) have failed in the NBA, or underperformed expectations.... and / or how those teams have underperformed vs what was promised by Rat or CalSlimy during recruiting.
 
Well it isn't like duke players are leading their teams now either. Outside of Irving, who played very few games in his only season at duke, who else is a star today for them? Ochafor, heck of a job both on and off the court, led his team to the worst record in the league and lead the team in arrests, not sure that is the face that team is looking for?

Given the higher rated players are going to duke rather than UNC and yet still not much more than role players says to me not much has changed, kinda same thing Phil Jackson stated when discussing how ready duke players are to play in the NBA.
Absolutely. Tyus Jones can't get off the bench, for the worst team in the NBA.
 
Absolutely. Tyus Jones can't get off the bench, for the worst team in the NBA.

Tyus Jones doesn't play for the 76ers. But your point still remains. The thing is, most of these kids believe that they will be the exception. They envision themselves as being the next Kobe or LeBron and never consider the possibility they might be a bust. They have inflated views of themselves and they are looking for the programs that will get them to the next level. Once they are there, it's up to them how successful they are, not their college coach.

As a Duke fan, I actually don't like the one and done rule. However, it is the rule and so the way I see it you can do one of two things. Either you can recruit the one and done guys or let UK have them all. I don't like the rule, but coaches have to adapt to it.
 
Tyus Jones doesn't play for the 76ers. But your point still remains. The thing is, most of these kids believe that they will be the exception. They envision themselves as being the next Kobe or LeBron and never consider the possibility they might be a bust. They have inflated views of themselves and they are looking for the programs that will get them to the next level. Once they are there, it's up to them how successful they are, not their college coach.

As a Duke fan, I actually don't like the one and done rule. However, it is the rule and so the way I see it you can do one of two things. Either you can recruit the one and done guys or let UK have them all. I don't like the rule, but coaches have to adapt to it.

Coach325, RESPECT SIR ! That may be the single best post I have ever read from a dukie!!!

I say this because you hit on a thought that I want to talk more about, this inflation of ego prior to college. Used to be you played high school ball and your coach was hard on you, especially if you were talented, we called it tuff love. But kids were not trading in where they play high school ball back then so that coach did not have to be extra nice and suck up to his player or watch his player transfer to yet another high school. Maybe those kids hooked on to a local AAU team for the summer but it was not this 12mo out of the year nonsense we have now.

Coaches at every step are blowing smoke up these kids butts rather than coaching them hard on how to play the game. Because they know if you are to hard on the kid and upset him he will just go join some other team. Everyone blows the smoke of how great they are now 12 mo out of the year, everyone tells them how great they are and how much money they will make. Now these kids rather than playing for the love of the game, rather than committing to a college program they dreamed about, they are making business decisions, it is just handling business now more than the love of playing ball.

Great athletes have always had a lot of smoke blown up their butts however now days it is so much worse, it is as if no one stands up to them, no one reminds them that they not as great as they think they are. Until they get to college and then most college coaches try to help them understand, you have to work on refining your skills in order for your talent to take you to its upper limits. But you have some coaches that do little more than keep blowing smoke up their butts of how they should get to the NBA as fast as possible, they don't talk in terms of staying there, they talk about getting there.

These kids are constantly playing games, they are not working on skill development, they play off of raw talent. They do not have time to work on skill development, not playing and traveling 12mo out of the year. Oh they will pump up treys and they will monster dunk but no one seems able to hit a mid range jump shot, seal their man on the block and use either hand on a jump hook, ect.

Now it has become move em in and move em back out of the pipeline as soon as possible and then just re-stock rince & repeat.

Now I will disagree on one portion, I do think the college coach should stand up and give these kids a dose of reality, even if they do not like it and many will not because all anyone has ever told them is how great they are, when they get to the NBA unless it is the very rare talent they discover they are not as great as they thought they were. And look at all the time they wasted when they could have been developing those skills they need in the NBA to survive. But to an extent the NBA has dumbed itself down to the extent that the transition is easier for that kid that is still working off raw talent and GMs are still paying crazy money for average players. So the cycle continues and has gotten to the point that NBA players are now dictating how the head coach will coach or they have him fired. Now that to me is BIZZARO!
 
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I have no issue with guys leaving early. If some computer wiz got offered a million bucks to come work for Google prior to graduating nobody would think anything if it. I guess there's lower risk of not performing(and they are likely much smarter than many NBA draftees) but I don't fault players for leaving when they are likely first round picks bc it's guarenteed million after taxes and agent. Any of these kids could set a few hundred K aside if they needed to complete school later if it didn't work out. I would like to see all freshmen to be required to take a basic finance class but that's a school issue not NCAA. I do think though that unlike some posters saying K is pushing them out its more K is telling guys they should go based on where they are projected. I mean people are talking about Ingram being 1 or 2. How can you not advise him to go when the potential that he may not be that high or even drafted(injury) if he returned. I assure you if Ingram had sat in Ks office and said "I think I need another year" K isn't turning him away, but like was said in this thread if a guy is a potential pick comes back then drops "coach held him back" Can't win no matter what you do...
 
I have no issue with guys leaving early. If some computer wiz got offered a million bucks to come work for Google prior to graduating nobody would think anything if it. I guess there's lower risk of not performing(and they are likely much smarter than many NBA draftees) but I don't fault players for leaving when they are likely first round picks bc it's guarenteed million after taxes and agent. Any of these kids could set a few hundred K aside if they needed to complete school later if it didn't work out. I would like to see all freshmen to be required to take a basic finance class but that's a school issue not NCAA. I do think though that unlike some posters saying K is pushing them out its more K is telling guys they should go based on where they are projected. I mean people are talking about Ingram being 1 or 2. How can you not advise him to go when the potential that he may not be that high or even drafted(injury) if he returned. I assure you if Ingram had sat in Ks office and said "I think I need another year" K isn't turning him away, but like was said in this thread if a guy is a potential pick comes back then drops "coach held him back" Can't win no matter what you do...

Yeah cause it sure is impossible for a player to get better by playing college ball, I mean, look how much playing college ball for 3yrs hurt Jordan, have ya heard him speak on how much playing college ball hurt his NBA career? Tim Duncan may have had a much better career had he not wasted 4yrs playing college ball, pretty sure from the way he speaks of him that John Wooden killed Bill Walton's NBA career by his having to play 4yrs in that program...
 
I'll stack up Barnes and Green 2-on-2 with any 2 Duke players in the NBA to a game to 21 ponts and they will win 7 out of 10 games. If Barnes was on another team he would average over 20 points a game and would be an All-star. Barnes will probably get his second title this year and Green already has 1.
 
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Yeah cause it sure is impossible for a player to get better by playing college ball, I mean, look how much playing college ball for 3yrs hurt Jordan, have ya heard him speak on how much playing college ball hurt his NBA career? Tim Duncan may have had a much better career had he not wasted 4yrs playing college ball, pretty sure from the way he speaks of him that John Wooden killed Bill Walton's NBA career by his having to play 4yrs in that program...

to be fair dsouth, those guys played in a different era that wasnt the OAD era....the expectation then was 4 year players and maybe the guy who left as a junior.......back to something that i read from you earlier, you said that you would welcome 1 or 2 OAD a season mixed with 3/4 years guys....that is exactly what Duke has been doing, yet it is referred to as a OAD factory or Kentucky like....the outlier for duke was the 2015 championship season when okafor was the sure guy and winslow and jones played themselves into a lotto pick and a 1st round pick....they struck when the iron was hot and many thought winslow should have went higher than #10 (somewhere between #5-#8)....todays youth are just different than the 80/90's early 2000's kids...they want the glitz, fame, glamour and the $$$$$$$$ to live better lives than they had been living and to provide for the people that they love
 
to be fair dsouth, those guys played in a different era that wasnt the OAD era....the expectation then was 4 year players and maybe the guy who left as a junior.......back to something that i read from you earlier, you said that you would welcome 1 or 2 OAD a season mixed with 3/4 years guys....that is exactly what Duke has been doing, yet it is referred to as a OAD factory or Kentucky like....the outlier for duke was the 2015 championship season when okafor was the sure guy and winslow and jones played themselves into a lotto pick and a 1st round pick....they struck when the iron was hot and many thought winslow should have went higher than #10 (somewhere between #5-#8)....todays youth are just different than the 80/90's early 2000's kids...they want the glitz, fame, glamour and the $$$$$$$$ to live better lives than they had been living and to provide for the people that they love

First off, that Ochafor class, odd now that dukies seem to feel the need to say Jones and Winslow were not expected to be one & done. Considering how Jones & Mudiley went back & forth with the experts as to who was the best PG in their class. What do you reckon it was, the amazing coaching development Ty Jones learned in those 2 semesters at duke? Same for Winslow, no matter where he was ranked, strong body wings built like Winslow that can also shoot the ball, you don't think they are worthy of one & done consideration? And even you add, many thought Winslow should have gone even higher than he was, yet a couple sentences before you said he was not considered to be a one & doner? Where do you get that magic potion that K sprinkles on his 4yr players like Jones & Winslow that magically turns them in to one & doners in just 2 short semesters of college?

My point is I get a lil frustrated with this now speak of those 2 as no where near one & done players until K magically turned them in to it.

Do ya really think kids in the 70s, the 80's or the 90s did not want the glitz glamour and the money? Hint, they wanted it just as much back then as they do today. The difference was back then coaches told them reality more so than blowing smoke up their butts. Back then kids were not transferring from one high school team to another because their coach was to hard on them. Back then kids didn't spend 12mo out of the year playing ball and traveling all over the world, when they did play AAU ball those coaches coached them hard and didn't worry about pissing off the player to see him go the next day to some other AAU program. Now days some of these kids don't know what team they will play for next week. Back then loyality to school and team was fostered and not bypassed as meaning little as it is today.

I don't blame these kids for going pro as soon as they can, I don't hate the player, I hate the system that seems today to force them out of school far to quickly. I blame the NBA and I blame those people looking to latch on to a kid that is a freshman in high school and pumping nothing in to the kids ear but what the kid wants to hear and does so only so he can see a future pay day off the kid, freakin leeches IMO.

And along comes Roy, who tells these kids that maybe rushing things is not the only way, that maybe it is not such a bad thing to spend some time under college tutoring as well as mature themselves a while as young men before they join the cut throat world of professional life? And yet it is spun that Roy holds his kids back, that Roy is not friendly toward the one & done player? Then there is K out there telling them now days, come to duke and only duke because only at duke will you be able to spend 6mo at that school and be set for life? One guys tells them what they need to hear and the other tells them what they want to hear and the one telling them what they need to hear is spun as anti one & done player?
 
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1 or 2 OAD a season mixed with 3/4 years guys....that is exactly what Duke has been doing, yet it is referred to as a OAD factory or Kentucky like....the outlier for duke was the 2015 championship season

I agree with your premise, but the 2015 season was the one year since K has adopted this OAD philosophy that has been a decent one for Duke. No OADs on the 2010 team. 2011 - Kyrie Irving, only made the S16 as a #1. 2012 - Austin Rivers, lost in the 1st round to #15 Lehigh. 2013 - No OADs. 2014 - Jabari Parker, lost in the 1st round to #14 Mercer. 2016 - Brandon Ingram, again only made the S16.

So Duke hasn't really had a successful season with 1 or 2 OADs. They won the championship in 2015, but that was with 3 OADs.
 
I agree with your premise, but the 2015 season was the one year since K has adopted this OAD philosophy that has been a decent one for Duke. No OADs on the 2010 team. 2011 - Kyrie Irving, only made the S16 as a #1. 2012 - Austin Rivers, lost in the 1st round to #15 Lehigh. 2013 - No OADs. 2014 - Jabari Parker, lost in the 1st round to #14 Mercer. 2016 - Brandon Ingram, again only made the S16.

So Duke hasn't really had a successful season with 1 or 2 OADs. They won the championship in 2015, but that was with 3 OADs.

And it is progressing, K has 3 now and is working hard to bring in a 4th for the 2016 class.
 
to be fair dsouth, those guys played in a different era that wasnt the OAD era....the expectation then was 4 year players and maybe the guy who left as a junior.......back to something that i read from you earlier, you said that you would welcome 1 or 2 OAD a season mixed with 3/4 years guys....that is exactly what Duke has been doing, yet it is referred to as a OAD factory or Kentucky like....the outlier for duke was the 2015 championship season when okafor was the sure guy and winslow and jones played themselves into a lotto pick and a 1st round pick....they struck when the iron was hot and many thought winslow should have went higher than #10 (somewhere between #5-#8)....todays youth are just different than the 80/90's early 2000's kids...they want the glitz, fame, glamour and the $$$$$$$$ to live better lives than they had been living and to provide for the people that they love
If you're signing 1 or more OAD's every year, you're a OAD factory. The LOM has gladly embraced that designation. He has demonstrated that he has no qualms about following UK's philosophy of signing as many OAD's as possible every year.

It's time dook fans owned up to that.
 
If you're signing 1 or more OAD's every year, you're a OAD factory. The LOM has gladly embraced that designation. He has demonstrated that he has no qualms about following UK's philosophy of signing as many OAD's as possible every year.

It's time dook fans owned up to that.

but dsouth said he'd be cool with 1 or 2 a season...???
 
And it is progressing, K has 3 now and is working hard to bring in a 4th for the 2016 class.

Duke has 2...jackson isnt a surefire OAD.....and possibly getting Bolden isnt a need...he'd def help, but not a need for next season....i am even not wanting him as it would be more beneficial to jeter/javin if he wasnt here imo
 
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I agree with your premise, but the 2015 season was the one year since K has adopted this OAD philosophy that has been a decent one for Duke. No OADs on the 2010 team. 2011 - Kyrie Irving, only made the S16 as a #1. 2012 - Austin Rivers, lost in the 1st round to #15 Lehigh. 2013 - No OADs. 2014 - Jabari Parker, lost in the 1st round to #14 Mercer. 2016 - Brandon Ingram, again only made the S16.

So Duke hasn't really had a successful season with 1 or 2 OADs. They won the championship in 2015, but that was with 3 OADs.

each of those teams had 1 OAD....Kyrie injury threw that team off....austin rivers team was limited and lost kyrie and 2 very very good seniors......2013 with a veteran team made the E8.....Parkers team was good they just had a bad night....this years team fought through adversity and showed well.....now take those OAD's away and those seasons probably dont go so well and just maybe the discussion wouldnt be early exits, but missing the tourney all together...???.......winslow and jones to me and others just werent OAD coming in they played into that status while winning a ship....wasnt winslow behind both pinson and jackson coming in????...winslolw and jones had great seasons being showcased and took advantage and cashed in....so like a game of spades,...lol...in 2015 duke had 1 and 2 possibles and those 2 possibles worked out...=) (for the spades guys)
 
First off, that Ochafor class, odd now that dukies seem to feel the need to say Jones and Winslow were not expected to be one & done. Considering how Jones & Mudiley went back & forth with the experts as to who was the best PG in their class. What do you reckon it was, the amazing coaching development Ty Jones learned in those 2 semesters at duke? Same for Winslow, no matter where he was ranked, strong body wings built like Winslow that can also shoot the ball, you don't think they are worthy of one & done consideration? And even you add, many thought Winslow should have gone even higher than he was, yet a couple sentences before you said he was not considered to be a one & doner? Where do you get that magic potion that K sprinkles on his 4yr players like Jones & Winslow that magically turns them in to one & doners in just 2 short semesters of college?

My point is I get a lil frustrated with this now speak of those 2 as no where near one & done players until K magically turned them in to it.

Do ya really think kids in the 70s, the 80's or the 90s did not want the glitz glamour and the money? Hint, they wanted it just as much back then as they do today. The difference was back then coaches told them reality more so than blowing smoke up their butts. Back then kids were not transferring from one high school team to another because their coach was to hard on them. Back then kids didn't spend 12mo out of the year playing ball and traveling all over the world, when they did play AAU ball those coaches coached them hard and didn't worry about pissing off the player to see him go the next day to some other AAU program. Now days some of these kids don't know what team they will play for next week. Back then loyality to school and team was fostered and not bypassed as meaning little as it is today.

I don't blame these kids for going pro as soon as they can, I don't hate the player, I hate the system that seems today to force them out of school far to quickly. I blame the NBA and I blame those people looking to latch on to a kid that is a freshman in high school and pumping nothing in to the kids ear but what the kid wants to hear and does so only so he can see a future pay day off the kid, freakin leeches IMO.

And along comes Roy, who tells these kids that maybe rushing things is not the only way, that maybe it is not such a bad thing to spend some time under college tutoring as well as mature themselves a while as young men before they join the cut throat world of professional life? And yet it is spun that Roy holds his kids back, that Roy is not friendly toward the one & done player? Then there is K out there telling them now days, come to duke and only duke because only at duke will you be able to spend 6mo at that school and be set for life? One guys tells them what they need to hear and the other tells them what they want to hear and the one telling them what they need to hear is spun as anti one & done player?
I agree with a great deal of this post, esp the people hyping recruits and players. But you have a huge double standard at the end. You say Roy gets spun as not being OAD friendly because he doesn't rush people out. From everything I've read Roy has said if he thinks the kid is ready or going to be a very high pick he will support that early jump if that's what the player wants. Please correct that if I am wrong. K does the same thing. He's not kicking these guys out the door, but hes not holding them back. He's saying if you are going to be a top pick I will advise you of where I think you stand, but if you want to go that's fine. UNC fans are spinning this as, you are a OAD move on so I can make room for next year" This is what Calipari has openly said he does. But if K tells a player, you may be a top pick but I don't think you are ready UNC and the media crucifies him. William Avery...lottery pick but K said he should come back another year....can't win. Jason Williams recently commented that K talked him back for the 3rd year and he probably could have gone and people on this board ripped into K(not saying you, but public backlash...) Williams draft stock didn't get hurt with another year and nobody can predict a motorcycle accident....

Should also be pointed out I have never said K turned anyone into a OAD. I said they played their way into top picks. That's a combination of coaching, skill, and mostly player work ethic(we all have seen supremely talented kids who wouldn't put in the work waste away) I don't think K magically took Tyus and Justice and suddenly they were talented. I do think that at the end of the year he sat down with both and discussed where their draft stock was and where it could be. Justice has the size that NBA wants....so the potential is there. Tyus is undersized compared to most PGs. Hes smart and has a good shot but not a freak athlete, not dominant. I truly believe his stock likely was about as high as it would go. With that in mind maybe it was good for him to strike when the iron was hot. We will never know what would have happened if he had come back, but I know that if he did and wasn't picked in a year or two people would say K held him back. It easy to say the wrong thing was done 5 years later when you see the outcome.

Interested if you know or would guess as to what Roy told Marvin Williams or Brandon Wright? Only an idiot would say he didn't want them back, but did he support them leaving to be top 10 picks? If so was it that they were ready or was it they had a huge opportunity.
 
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but dsouth said he'd be cool with 1 or 2 a season...???
That's Dave's opinion, not mine. I'll reiterate what I've said before. If we start signing OAD's every year like dook and UK, I'll stop watching college basketball. If you have no problem with it, fine. I'm sure you'll find some UNC fans who would have no problem with UNC adopting the LOM's approach, forsaking any vestige of the student athlete for the sake of winning as many games as is humanly possible. But I'm an old schooler and I do.

To each, his own.
 
If you're signing 1 or more OAD's every year, you're a OAD factory. The LOM has gladly embraced that designation. He has demonstrated that he has no qualms about following UK's philosophy of signing as many OAD's as possible every year.

It's time dook fans owned up to that.

So that means we won't see Roy going after Knox, Bamba, Carter, etc?
 
Are you dookies just too dense to understand what we've tried to explain to you time after time, or are you being intentionally obtuse?


Apparently, because you are saying if you UNC starts landing one and dones you will stop watching basketball. Yet, Roy has had a couple OADs in the past and continues to recruit them every year. So you are ok with recruiting them as long as you don't land them?
 
I get what you are saying archer, but Roy recruits OAD kids....the scandal or whatever you want to call it may have prevented some of them from choosing unc....now that its over, some of those OAD will choose UNC...carter bamba and knox are projected as such.......so you dont want carter or bamba or knox? or only if they change their minds and stay at unc for 2/3/4 years...or say jaleek felton just skyrockets and becomes part of the OAD talk, you dont want him at unc anymore if that becomes his clear intentions???
 
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