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Joel Berry’s lack of Respect

Heels5150

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Aug 13, 2017
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I just saw 247’s mid season top four all American Teams and Joel didn’t make any of the teams. I am so tired of Joel not getting the respect he deserves. Back to back title games and scoring 20 plus in both. For him not to be on at least the second Team is an insult!
 
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Who should Berry replace, and why?

Previous years are entirely irrelevant. This is based on the current season.
 
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I just saw 247’s mid season top four all American Teams and Joel didn’t make any of the teams. I am so tired of Joel not getting the respect he deserves. Back to back title games and scoring 20 plus in both. For him not to be on at least the second Team is an insult!
Hopefully doing that a 3rd time would be a fitting response.
 
Who should Berry replace, and why?

Previous years are entirely irrelevant. This is based on the current season.
Shamet of Witchita St. I understand at the moment for Brunson and Young being on the first team. However, Joel without a doubt should be ahead of Shamet. I believe Witchita St. is a very good and dangerous team but take Joel is a flat out winner. Tremendous floor leader, scorer, team leader and a hard nose defender.
 
It's hard for me to accept the narrative that JB doesn't get any respect when he is constantly being mentioned as one of the best point guards in the nation by people on TV and in print. Hell, even our rivals say he's good. Not sure why some people think you have to be considered the very best to get respect. Saying you're one of the best in the country is pretty respectful for most people.
 
I just saw 247’s mid season top four all American Teams and Joel didn’t make any of the teams. I am so tired of Joel not getting the respect he deserves. Back to back title games and scoring 20 plus in both. For him not to be on at least the second Team is an insult!

Unless he improves get used to it. Joel is just not a great point guard ON PAPER. For most of these awards/teams your stats matter. Joel's stats are not great.

CC
 
Joel has proven he is one of the best in college basketball. But evidently there is still people in the media or at 247 that do not agree
Hey, at this point don't sweat it. JB has proven on the court what he is about, and when the media-darling PGs came calling last season he showed them what was up, and he'll likely do it again if and when the time comes.

AA teams in mid-season don't even mean anything, and he's made pre-season AA teams already this season, so he'll always be an All-American PG no matter what, and of course we already know his jersey will deservedly hang in the rafters, which I'm sure will mean more to JB in the long haul anyway.

Trust me, opposing coaches and players know what they're up against when they play us.
 
Shamet of Witchita St. I understand at the moment for Brunson and Young being on the first team. However, Joel without a doubt should be ahead of Shamet. I believe Witchita St. is a very good and dangerous team but take Joel is a flat out winner. Tremendous floor leader, scorer, team leader and a hard nose defender.

Shamet scores almost as much (21.4 pts/40mins vs 22.4 pts/40mins) with significantly better efficiency (72.9% TS% vs 53.5% TS%) and significantly better playmaking (30.3 AST% vs 17.1% AST%). He leads his team in points and assists. Berry leads his team in neither.

Berry is great. Everyone thinks he's great. It's not disrespectful to say other players deserve recognition over him.
 
Shamet of Witchita St. I understand at the moment for Brunson and Young being on the first team. However, Joel without a doubt should be ahead of Shamet. I believe Witchita St. is a very good and dangerous team but take Joel is a flat out winner. Tremendous floor leader, scorer, team leader and a hard nose defender.
Shamet has been way better than Joel so far, at least on offense. I have no idea how good he is on defense, but he's shooting 58% on twos compared to Joel's 40%, and 52% on threes compared to Joel's 38%. He also gets to the line more often and has a 2.5 A/TO ratio compared to Joel's 1.9.

The one big difference is strength of schedule; Kenpom has UNC at #3 in SOS in all of D1 compared to WSU's #97 schedule. But on an unadjusted basis Shamet is dominating Joel so far. I have no problems with him ahead in awards.

Joel still needs to step up his offense another level if he wants to be AA in my book. His two point percentage is way down from last year. I think he can do it, he had a slow start to the season. Our SOS moving forward may keep him from the raw numbers though.
 
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He's a winner and someone you want in your fox hole. But he's having a terrible year. A starting PG in Roy's system needs to get more than 3 assists per game. And 17 PPG is pretty irrelevant when you shoot 38% from the field. I compare him to Cam Newton. He's a gamer and plays better in the big moments, but the stats are never gonna scream superstar (other than Cam's MVP season)
 
Shamet scores almost as much (21.4 pts/40mins vs 22.4 pts/40mins) with significantly better efficiency (72.9% TS% vs 53.5% TS%) and significantly better playmaking (30.3 AST% vs 17.1% AST%). He leads his team in points and assists. Berry leads his team in neither.

Berry is great. Everyone thinks he's great. It's not disrespectful to say other players deserve recognition over him.
I really don't GAS about the mid-season AA teams and whatnot, and I have nothing against Shamet or anyone getting recognized for fine play... but if you think for a second any of that stuff you looked up means Shamet is better than Berry? Well, :confused:
 
.......For most of these awards/teams your stats matter. Joel's stats are not great.

CC
This is key to the discussion. There’s no stat for the turnover caused by 29sec of ball hawking.
There no stat for timing of a scoring run... say when the team is down and JB turns on 13 quick points
Admittedly, Joel could improve his stats (and maybe the team’s results) with a better drive-and-dish game.
But as CC says, these teams get selected based on stats and Joel is an overall game effector, often without great stats..... much like Theo.
 
I really don't GAS about the mid-season AA teams and whatnot, and I have nothing against Shamet or anyone getting recognized for fine play... but if you think for a second any of that stuff you looked up means Shamet is better than Berry? Well, :confused:
Yeah, it's completely insane to think scoring efficiently and creating for others without turning the ball over matters in the game of basketball. /sarcasm
 
Shamet scores almost as much (21.4 pts/40mins vs 22.4 pts/40mins) with significantly better efficiency (72.9% TS% vs 53.5% TS%) and significantly better playmaking (30.3 AST% vs 17.1% AST%). He leads his team in points and assists. Berry leads his team in neither.

Berry is great. Everyone thinks he's great. It's not disrespectful to say other players deserve recognition over him.
No it’s not saying
Shamet has been better than Berry so far this season. This really isn't even a debate.
Wow. So you would take him to lead your team over Joel? I get stats but there is a bigger number involved......Joel wins
 
Shamet has been better than Berry so far this season. This really isn't even a debate.
I think so. We'd be outraged if Shamet were here and Joel was being awarded over him. And Joel is my favorite player on the team and one of the best players in basketball, but give me a break. Shamet is absolutely killing it.
 
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Yeah, it's completely insane to think scoring efficiently and creating for others without turning the ball over matters in the game of basketball. /sarcasm
It's called basketball not being a video game #notsarcasm

Seriously, all he had to say was that Joel's percentages, etc, got off to a slow start this season and it's thus not completely surprising that he's getting left off of a mid-season AA team... but, as usual, pln's insinuation went way beyond that.

You yourself correctly pointed out that the competition level is night and day different, but even with that caveat, I'm not at all surprised that JB's shooting pcts would hurt him being recognized for this season thus far --- that's all fair enough --- but again, my point is that as to who's the better player? Numerical snapshots don't tell the whole story by any means.
 
It's called basketball not being a video game #notsarcasm

Seriously, all he had to say was that Joel's percentages, etc, got off to a slow start this season and it's thus not completely surprising that he's getting left off of a mid-season AA team... but, as usual, pln's insinuation went way beyond that.

You yourself correctly pointed out that the competition level is night and day different, but even with that caveat, I'm not at all surprised that JB's shooting pcts would hurt him being recognized for this season thus far --- that's all fair enough --- but again, my point is that as to who's the better player? Numerical snapshots don't tell the whole story by any means.
They certainly have a large part to play in player evaluation. True Shooting % is just another form of shooting percentage that more accurately accounts for 3pt attempts and free throws, it's not PER. The defense, intangibles, and SOS sway things much more in Joel's favor though I think, and that stuff doesn't show up in the box score.

Bottomline is mid-season AA "awards" are going to be mostly about box-score stats. It's not disrespectful to say Joel isn't in the top 2 PG in America so far, as long as you acknowledge he's been quite good.
 
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but, as usual, pln's insinuation went way beyond that.

What did I insinuate? My two other posts in this thread are below, for reference.

Who should Berry replace, and why?

Previous years are entirely irrelevant. This is based on the current season.

Shamet scores almost as much (21.4 pts/40mins vs 22.4 pts/40mins) with significantly better efficiency (72.9% TS% vs 53.5% TS%) and significantly better playmaking (30.3 AST% vs 17.1% AST%). He leads his team in points and assists. Berry leads his team in neither.

Berry is great. Everyone thinks he's great. It's not disrespectful to say other players deserve recognition over him.
 
Joel's 2 point game has always been the drive. It worked when he had Isiah and Kennedy as threats to dish to. This year not only does his man stay on him but every opponent within 5 feet steps up because they know there is no one for him to dish to. The alternative is to stop driving. That would be a huge mistake. IMO he's still the best point guard in the country, just not the best shooter as a pg. He's obviously a high NBA prospect because he shoots 90% from the foul line, right PLN 2013
 
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BTW, 1 game. Win you play on, lose and go home. Who ya taking? I'm taking Berry, some would take Brunson. IMO those are the only 2 choices. Stats be damned.
 
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Joel's 2 point game has always been the drive. It worked when he had Isiah and Kennedy as threats to dish to. This year not only does his man stay on him but every opponent within 5 feet steps up because they know there is no one for him to dish to.

His pull-up 2 has always been great - that and his 3pt shot are his best offensive assets. He's never been great at getting to the rim or dishing to teammates. It's just more of a problem this year, because we need him to do those things.

The alternative is to stop driving. That would be a huge mistake.

Agreed. It's important that he (and Theo, and others) continue to put pressure on the defense.

IMO he's still the best point guard in the country, just not the best shooter as a pg.

You won't find anyone not wearing light blue who would take Berry over Trae Young. And very few who would take Berry over Brunson.

He's obviously a high NBA prospect because he shoots 90% from the foul line, right PLN 2013

Fun strawman. But his shooting is indeed NBA-level, which is what FT% is predictive of. It's basically everything else - size, length, athleticism, vision - that prevents him from being a real NBA prospect.
 
I will admit that I do follow the rankings, but I just look at it and move on from it as I am biased in how I judge it. My thought is that they can rank Brunson, Young, and Shamet all in front of him because statistically they are performing better at this point, however his heart and his mentality is what separates him from the rest. It is what makes him guy that I want leading my guys throughout the rest of the year and as we make a run in the tourny. I could go on and on about the impact that he has on our team, but I'm gonna end with this, he didn't let the The Thought of Redemption and Two Bum Ankles hold him back from getting what he wanted, so what will. At the end of the day he wants to win more than anything and will do anything in his power to do so and no one can rank that or determine that but Joel himself.
 
His pull-up 2 has always been great - that and his 3pt shot are his best offensive assets. He's never been great at getting to the rim or dishing to teammates. It's just more of a problem this year, because we need him to do those things.



Agreed. It's important that he (and Theo, and others) continue to put pressure on the defense.



You won't find anyone not wearing light blue who would take Berry over Trae Young. And very few who would take Berry over Brunson.



Fun strawman. But his shooting is indeed NBA-level, which is what FT% is predictive of. It's basically everything else - size, length, athleticism, vision - that prevents him from being a real NBA prospect.
You were doing so well... Alas, you didn't stop after 2 comments.
 
That's not disrespect. Berry isn't having a great season thus far. 38% from the field and 36% 3PT is pretty poor, along with only 3 APG. He is struggling with having to be the main scorer on the perimeter this year. He's better in a secondary role like he was the past 2 years
 
His pull-up 2 has always been great - that and his 3pt shot are his best offensive assets. He's never been great at getting to the rim or dishing to teammates. It's just more of a problem this year, because we need him to do those things.



Agreed. It's important that he (and Theo, and others) continue to put pressure on the defense.



You won't find anyone not wearing light blue who would take Berry over Trae Young. And very few who would take Berry over Brunson.



Fun strawman. But his shooting is indeed NBA-level, which is what FT% is predictive of. It's basically everything else - size, length, athleticism, vision - that prevents him from being a real NBA prospect.

Outside shooting isn't consistent enough to the NBA and he's a SG in a PG's body
 
Joel's 2 point game has always been the drive. It worked when he had Isiah and Kennedy as threats to dish to. This year not only does his man stay on him but every opponent within 5 feet steps up because they know there is no one for him to dish to. The alternative is to stop driving. That would be a huge mistake. IMO he's still the best point guard in the country, just not the best shooter as a pg. He's obviously a high NBA prospect because he shoots 90% from the foul line, right PLN 2013
I support Joel 100% & feel fortunate we have him. That said, Luke is a much better threat to score than Isaiah was. I agree the freshmen aren't nearly as good as Kennedy, but there are still players Joel can dish to. Let's not throw our other players under the bus to support one.
 
Outside shooting isn't consistent enough to the NBA and he's a SG in a PG's body

37.7% on 7.2 attempts/game (many off-the-dribble) paired with 89.9% from the line projects very well for a spot-up shooter in the NBA. His height and lack of elevation on his shot are issues, though - it's unlikely he'll be able to create his own shot in the NBA.
 
I support Joel 100% & feel fortunate we have him. That said, Luke is a much better threat to score than Isaiah was. I agree the freshmen aren't nearly as good as Kennedy, but there are still players Joel can dish to. Let's not throw our other players under the bus to support one.

We had 2 very capable players near the basket for the entire game every game last year. That's obviously not the case this year. Luke is not the threat to score inside that Hicks was. Making that statement is not throwing anybody under the bus.
 
We had 2 very capable players near the basket for the entire game every game last year. That's obviously not the case this year. Luke is not the threat to score inside that Hicks was. Making that statement is not throwing anybody under the bus.
I loved Isaiah, but don't remember him being a huge threat to score last year. If he hadn't been such a target for the refs & could actually stay in the game for any length of time, he may have been. (FWIW, I've watched basketball many years & have never seen a player as targeted as Isaiah was for fouls.) Luke scores all over the floor. That doesn't mean he also doesn't score inside at times. He may get blocked occasionally, but Kennedy, as awesome as he was for us, also got blocked often. I think people are remembering some things more fondly than they were, especially when it comes to Luke vs. Isaiah. As I said above, the freshman don't equal Kennedy, but it's hard to imagine how anyone could think Luke isn't a much better offensive threat than Isaiah was.
 
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Berry may not belong. I don’t care and I doubt he does either. He’s won a far more prestigious award. And while others may have better stats, better measurables, etc., there’s not a PG in America I’d rather start for my team when I had to win one game for all the marbles. And there’s no bias in that statement. Objectively, you can’t show me a better leader/winner in the college game.
 
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