Joel Berry’s lack of Respect
- Thread starter Heels5150
- Start date
I never said that Luke isn't a much better offensive threat the Isaiah. I said that last year Berry had 2 bigs near the basket at all times. Hicks, Kennedy, Luke, Bradley. 2 of those 4 were on the floor except in rare circumstances. I also said that Luke is not the threat to score INSIDE that Hicks was. I'll stick by that.
That's not a knock on Berry. He is the go to guy on the perimeter for UNC this year and is struggling with the defense keyed in on him. He's only shooting 38% from the field which is pretty bad. He is better not having all the attention on him in a secondary role on the perimeter. He's not a go to guy who you say "go get me a bucket"
Not to mince words, but you were very specific about the bigs Berry had to pass to last year. If you had said he had 3 or 4 consistent options to pass to, while now he mostly has Luke, I would have agreed with you. Unfortunately, that wasn't at all what you said. I haven't gone back to check the stats, but I would be surprised, if Luke hasn't scored close to as many points inside this year as Isaiah had at this point last year. Regardless, it's also possible to drive inside & kick the ball out for a long 2 or 3. Once again, I'm not saying anything negative about JB. I'm very glad he's our PG. I'm addressing the people who constantly say we don't have an inside game & never give Luke enough credit. I really don't know how much more some people expect from him. Yes, he's a stretch four, but he is an inside player.
PS: Blaming other players for one of our players having a bad game(s) is nonsense. I expect it from one of our fans. It's happened more than once in the past few years. Other people should know better.
-4th among starters in points/poss (Jackson #1; Berry, Hicks, and Meeks in a virtual tie behind him)
-3rd among starters in usage rate (Jackson #1; Berry, Hicks, and Meeks in a virtual tie behind him)
-2nd among starters in assist rate (behind Theo)
Seems like a secondary(/tertiary/quaternary) role to me. Jackson was the clear #1 option. Berry/Hicks/Meeks were options #2 through #4 in no particular order. Theo was the best at creating for others.
Balanced contributions from the #2-#5 options were a huge part of what made that team great. That's no a slight to Berry.
Last edited:
And now Berry is #1 in usage rate, with a higher usage rate than Jackson's last year. And he's doing okay in the role of #1 scorer, though he's not doing great.
He's also not creating much for others, which is pretty disappointing - because Kenny and Cam (and every '17 big) need someone to create shots for them. Kenny and Cam would be devastating shooting drive-and-kick 3s, but Berry doesn't kick.
I did say kennedy and hicks in my original post! I never mentioned Luke one way or the other. Most would understand that to mean our inside game last year was better than what we have this year. I tried to clear it up by stating that we had 2 very good inside players on the court at all times, and included Luke in those 4! If you think what we have inside this year in any way equals what we had last year then I guess you'll argue until the cows come home. I'm not sure who is " Blaming other players for one of our players having a bad game(s)" but isn't me! I'm also not sure who is throwing Luke under the bus, but it isn't me! GTF off your high horse!
Last edited:
Well, aren't you a pleasant person. I had no negative feelings in the discussion at all, until you got personal. To me, it was merely a discussion with differing opinions. Sorry, but I won't continue having a discussion with someone who gets personal & starts calling names. FWIW, the PS in my post had nothing to do with you.
Joel will get paid to play, that is for sure.
I believe he could find himself in the big leagues but it'll be a matter of finding the right fit - getting onto a team that needs his shooting and defensive skills.... That said, if he doesn't have the 'measurables' to cut it in the NBA he'd certainly tear up some of the Euro leagues for a cool $1-1.5M per year..... Hey, he could head down under and throw lob passes to JP (who has taken the Australian league by storm BTW)
And yeah, I've got blue tinted glasses, and happily admit I'd take JB first pick in a fantasy college team... track record speaks volumes.
Alright, man. I'm clearly not going to win this argument since Berry can do no wrong in your opinion. The fact of the matter is that he's not a bucket. He's not someone who you say "get out of the way and let me get a bucket". I know you are gonna ride him and say that he is but the eye test and stats prove to you he's not that great as a premier option.
How is it the opposite of the truth? I would love to hear an argument actually.
Maybe one of these days it will dawn on you that basketball ain't a damned video game... never mind, probably not.
And Jackson was not "the clear #1 option". Seriously, if you actually believe that it speaks volumes about what you actually know about our system.
It's just his combined share of field goal attempts (3rd among starters), free throw attempts (3rd among starters), and turnovers (2nd among starters). It's not exactly complicated. You can view those individually if you prefer. Same story.
Wait are you trolling right now or do you actually believe that Jackson wasn't the #1 option last year? So the ACC POY wasn't our #1 option? If you're being serious, I truly can't help you and you just lost all credibility. Have a nice night.
The draft boards don't lie. Joel is a fantastic college player, and we are fortunate to have had him at UNC for 4 years. But he is destined for the NBA G League at best, and honestly, he is likely destined to spend his career overseas. At his height, he must have incredible quickness on offense and defense, and have very high shooting percentages from inside and outside the arc to make it in the NBA. Unfortunately he does not have the talent for the NBA. Sorry, but those are the facts.
No. You're not gonna win the argument because you don't know wtf you're talking about. Have you actually watched a game? Whenever we need a bucket, at whatever point of the game, JB is The guy to take, and most times make, the key shot. Roy trusts him absolutely to decide when he needs to step up, create or put the team on his back. Very few players get Roy's total green light. JB has that for a reason. Good grief.
Exactly: he's the #1 option this year on the perimeter and his numbers are down and he's shooting pretty poorly in that role.
Sorry - you just said that Justin Jackson wasn't our #1 option last year. I don't think you're the guy to question ANYBODY's basketball intelligence
Okay, if you want to view it purely in terms of system, Hicks and Meeks were our first looks. Which isn't the same thing as #1 offensive option, but those are details. Berry wasn't our first look, #1 scorer, or #1 playmaker for others.
Just so that I'm clear - Are you asserting that Berry was our main scorer last year? Or that our first option on offense was to get Berry a shot?
Actually edited out the name calling before you posted. It got personal when you accused me of throwing our players under the bus. I don't think you can find 1 post anywhere in my history that was negative about any UNC player, whether his name was Drew or Jordan. My original point was that it was easier for Berry to drive to the rim last year based simply on personnel. I'm sorry if I worded it in a way that you deem I was criticizing Luke, Manley, Huffman, Brooks, etc.
I totally understand trying to support one of our players. I guess I'm equally guilty of getting tired of people not supporting Luke. I don't understand why people keep saying we don't have an inside game. That's simply not true. Luke has been amazing considering the circumstances. No, we don't have the type of inside game we've had in the past, but we do have at least half of an inside game. We're not totally lacking inside. JB does have outlets. They may not be the same as last year, but they exist. The whole team has to adjust to a different style of play. I expect them to be there by the end of the season.
Last edited:
You actually think any of that means someone is a "first option"? Wow. Just wow. Ok
. Enjoy the weather in your world, man...
Because Jackson wasn't. If you understood what even most casual fans know about our system, you'd know our first option(s) was Kennedy Meeks and/or Isiah Hicks.
As for JB's shooting pct it doesn't have anything to do with his scoring role. Dealing with that hand and compensating afterward was the setback that skewed his accuracy down --- and as Roy said, it caused him to press. He also had the burden of trying to wrangle unsure freshman Bigs in a system that was still trying to be inside-out.
And BTW: Joel is shooting over 40% from 3 since we got into conference play.
I watched a G-League game the other day that had two very recent high lottery picks playing. There are no guarantees in the NBA. It's often a matter of fit and getting with the right team/coach at the right time as to who makes it or doesn't. JB might make it, he might not... but if he doesn't it won't be for lack of talent.
"First look" is a reasonable definition of "first option" - that was Isaiah and Kennedy (probably Isaiah if we had to pick one guy). If that's the definition you choose to use, I have no problem with that.
But "guy we want shooting the most shots" is also a reasonable definition. That was Jackson. Using that definition doesn't make someone a casual fan. It's just a different concept.
Berry was neither last year. This year he's both. And he's struggled in that role.
His offensive game has really been propped up by his 3pt shooting. 47% of his points have come from 3s this year; in conference play it's 54%. His offense is classic "live by the 3, die by the 3". A "go get me a bucket" player needs to be able to score inside the arc, and when Berry has ventured inside the arc, it hasn't gone very well.
He's still doing well at the things he excelled at last year (running the offense, spacing, spot-up shooting, pull-up jumpers when they're there). But the new things we need him to do (creating off-the-dribble in the half court, creating for others) are proving to be quite difficult for him. He's been one of our best players, but he hasn't been good enough in the #1 option role to make us great.
Because he's an excellent shooter. Nobody has disputed that. He also takes great care of the ball.
But among guys with at least 50 conference minutes (7 players), he ranks:
- Last in 2ptFG% (39%)
- Last in FT rate (.140)
- Last in TS% (53.4%)
- 5th in assist rate (behind Theo, Cam, Kenny, and Luke - though to be fair, Luke is only an inch ahead of him)
I'm sure you'll bemoan my use of numbers, but those numbers are glaring.
Last edited:
They're glaringly useless. Seriously, if you want to live in a virtual world and continue to spend your time looking up stuff to make yourself sound knowledgeable, go right ahead.
You can make up your own definitions too. Enjoy yourself. At some point it actually has to mean something in context of the actual game and system in which its used. Otherwise its little more than statistical wanking. Hell, Dean Smith all but invented the use of what some call "metrics" in basketball and he would most likely roll his eyes if not LHFAO at some of the stuff you trot out.
Right now I'm rolling my own eyes at these incessant tiresome arguments. I'm done with it, but since you like numbers so much, I'll just leave you with this: A metric Dean quite literally invented (that has become a go-to because of its usefulness) is Points Per Possession (PPP), a number most teams hope they can get over 1.0. I saw a stat from this season that when JB is in the game vs when he's not makes a .44 net difference in our PPP vs our opponents' (in other words it covers offense and defense). Given the small ranges dealt with (from 0 to just over 1), a .44 team turn-around from one player is astounding.
Get this straight: No one is arguing that JB's individual efficiency numbers are up to his standards thus far this season. They are clearly not. However, as I tried (probably in vain) to explain to another arguer, that can be traced directly to his hand injury and the compensation both during and after, plus as Roy (who knows a little bit about these things) said, he then started pressing to recapture his mojo, not to mention all the while trying to wrangle struggling freshman Bigs into being a component of our inside-out game in a mostly free-lance offense.
And finally (and of course overlooked) is the fact that, like a great baseball player who is in a temporary slump at the plate but continues to play great in the field, Joel puts on a nightly clinic on defending from the Point (that none of these other PGs can touch) whilst running the system in a manner that puts his team first over trying to ring up individual stats --- all the while putting in the work to get his offensive efficiency back clicking to his standards.
I judge great players by the entirety of their impact on the team and the system in which they're operating. You can judge them any way you want. And I'll start my ideal college team with Joel F***ing Berry. You start yours with whomever else is out there, and as the old southern coach saying goes, "his'n will beat your'n" way more often than not.
Over and out.
The guy we want getting the first look this year seems to me to be Luke. The guy we want shooting the most shots also seems to be Luke. I don't believe Joel meets your definition of "first option" either way. You make a case that his FT rate is low? Have you watched a game this year? He misses out on 6-8 free throws every game because he doesn't get the calls on real fouls committed against him. You can't put that on him. He makes the plays that should result in free throws but goes so strong and with no theatrics therefore no trip to the line. Last in 2 pt%? See above ref no calls. Watch a game! How hard would it be for you to put the effort into proving how good Berry has been as opposed to pointing out supposed weaknesses?
No theatrics? He's on the floor after most of his drives. Not getting legit foul calls? Maybe. But the book on JB is plain as day - Drive right and put up a rainbow off the top of the BB or take an open 3. It's easy to not foul a guy when you know what he's going to do, especially if you are not out classed physically.
I love Berry - but my problem with him is his Roy like stubbornness to constantly drive and go to the floor. I'm not saying he's flopping but if you are always on the floor the refs will start calling only the blatant fouls, all the 50/50 calls will go against you*. He has a good mid-range game. I wish he would develop it more so that defenders have to start worrying about the pull-up when he drives.
*Note: This does not apply if you have some LAX name like Grayson.
CC
That's not what I said champ. I said this season, Shamet has been better individually.
Some of us previously compared Joel to last year's POY Frank Mason.
Joel's junior numbers were similar to Frank's junior numbers. Which is to say good. Not great, but good. Mason improved in every category as a senior. Not necessarily by a lot, but enough. Especially in scoring efficiency.
That was what we hoped to see from Joel this year. But, unfortunately, he has backslid on most measures. A lot to do with the guys we lost.
We are roughly halfway through the season. Plenty of time for Berry to turn it around. But so far there isn't much indication that will happen.
We haven't been going small long enough for me to judge. Does anyone else have a feel for whether playing more small ball will be good for Joel?
Joel's junior numbers were similar to Frank's junior numbers. Which is to say good. Not great, but good. Mason improved in every category as a senior. Not necessarily by a lot, but enough. Especially in scoring efficiency.
That was what we hoped to see from Joel this year. But, unfortunately, he has backslid on most measures. A lot to do with the guys we lost.
We are roughly halfway through the season. Plenty of time for Berry to turn it around. But so far there isn't much indication that will happen.
We haven't been going small long enough for me to judge. Does anyone else have a feel for whether playing more small ball will be good for Joel?
Gary mentioned the hand earlier and I really hope that is playing a big part regarding his shooting.
If that is the case then if the following things happen (and they should) the Heels could be pretty darn good come tourny time:
- Joel gets back to 100% and/or makes up the backslide due to the injury
- Brooks and Manley improve
- Chemistry gets better (more small ball exp, working with Cam, etc)
CC
A small quibble - I don't like the words you used. I won't agree that Shamet has been individually better. I'll agree that his individual stats are better. As I've acknowledged, I don't think Berry is deserving of the award strictly based on a stats driven rationale. But if you replace Berry with Shamet on our team, we're absolutely no better than we are now and most likely worse. Berry is the kind of player that stats can't measure his true value to our team - especially our team. Maybe it wouldn't be so much like that if Berry was playing in a different system. But Berry is the engine for us and his shooting %, usage rate, PER and all the other overanalyzing stats don't mean much in the grand scheme of team play.
those "facts" as you call them are not created in a vacuum. Something to remember.
Similar threads
