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OOTB's Political Thread . ..

Why not?




It would be weird if I was wrong. I guess there’s a first time for everything though.

But I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. I acknowledge that Trump has lowered the bar for Presidential decorum. But take a look at your Facebook news feed. I don’t know about you, but the media does its best to promote the “resistance”. My local ABC affiliate posts something everyday like this:

“Trump rolls back regulations on light bulbs. Do you agree with the President or not?”

“Trump slams city of Chicago for sanctuary city status. Do you agree with him?”

“Did the President make the right decision to not inform congress of the raid on ISIS? Share your thoughts.”

And what’s worse is that we celebrate horrible, divisive comments. “So and so’s twitter feed lit up today with support after he threatened violence against republicans, yada, yada, yada.” Or “so and so’s Tweet disparaging President Trump was retweeted 77,000 times today!” It’s like people now try to say the most hurtful, divisive or outrageous thing because they so badly want to score some ridiculous SJW points. Say a curse word in your tweet against Trump and you receive 10 points. Call Melania a whore and you get 20 points (call her a “f*ckin whore” and you can really rack up some points). Threaten the President in some low brow sarcastic way and “you win the internet for today.”

People on both sides (far more currently on the left) have forgotten how to just disagree, keep your composure, act like you have home training, smile and nod to people you disagree with and then be happy to go to the polls on Election Day and be a part of voting someone out. Trump hasn’t caused that. The media validating people’s feeling online has created that.

I’ve never publicly booed anybody for anything and never will

As i’ve said in here the last sermon i sat through claimed global warming was a lie perpetrated by satan to lure young people to liberalism, voting dem, and making obama pres. The dipshit pastor also claimed obama was a muslim and the high muslim birth rate would mean the muslims would take over the us in ten yrs. (that was about ten yrs ago...hmmm guess he was wrong) if there had been torches and pitchforks and a mosque nearby it would’ve been on. And i saw all the christians on fb and twitter (and in here) during obamas time piling on with the mind numbingly stupid lies and slander about obama every bit as much as trumps dealing with. Hell some of the bullshit originated with trump himself. Remember how the dumfuk called for obamas birth certificate and accused him of lying about his citizenship? Wanna talk about hurtful and divisive? How about
Trump and his cult going after hillary? “Lock her up, lock her up” and oh yea, his promise on the debate stage to put her in prison. Well now these deluded cult dwelling knuckle draggers are getting it back and they wanna whine about cnn and “fake news”. Lol. So yea, i get your point about the media. But know what...Karma is a bitch.

But anyway my feelings for trump have nothing to do with how hes “portrayed” on the evening news or social media. His actions, his words, they speak for themselves. I’ve listened to him and read his speeches without any media bias or religious fuk nut telling me what god wants me to think.
 
I take a contrarian approach for my Presidential rooting interests. They rail on Trump, so I find myself pulling for the guy in a lot of situations. They slurped Obama big time, so I found myself not caring for him in most instances.
Sounds like you need to learn how to think for yourself. You shouldn’t let other people do your thinking for you.
 
Interesting article about the impeachment situation and something that I think could have applied to many of the things that have happened during Trump's presidency. Take the wall in Colorado thing for example. I think that Trump meant to say CA, but instead of just saying my bad, he tried to come up with some weird explanation and just made things worse. If Trump would allow himself to admit he wasn't perfect, then his time in office would be going better.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-10-29/trump-apology-impeachment-ukraine
 
Interesting article about the impeachment situation and something that I think could have applied to many of the things that have happened during Trump's presidency. Take the wall in Colorado thing for example. I think that Trump meant to say CA, but instead of just saying my bad, he tried to come up with some weird explanation and just made things worse. If Trump would allow himself to admit he wasn't perfect, then his time in office would be going better.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-10-29/trump-apology-impeachment-ukraine
When was the last time a POTUS apologized for something of this seemingly magnitude? I would imagine those that hate him would use it as a sign of weakness.
 
When was the last time a POTUS apologized for something of this seemingly magnitude?
Don't know. That's irrelevant to what Trump does though. He is his own man.

I would imagine those that hate him would use it as a sign of weakness.
So what? That doesn't really matter because they already hate him. The group this would be targeted at is the normal independent voters. The people who don't automatically dismiss or support him. Those are the people who will decide if he gets another term.

Are we really so far gone as a country that we can't all admit that it would be ok for a president to admit he isn't perfect? I have more respect for the person who can admit their mistakes and own them, than the person who won't admit that they have made a mistake. Not admitting them usually ends up hurting you even more in the end anyway. You either get caught in a lie or the situation drags on longer than necessary.
 
Don't know. That's irrelevant to what Trump does though. He is his own man.


So what? That doesn't really matter because they already hate him. The group this would be targeted at is the normal independent voters. The people who don't automatically dismiss or support him. Those are the people who will decide if he gets another term.

Are we really so far gone as a country that we can't all admit that it would be ok for a president to admit he isn't perfect? I have more respect for the person who can admit their mistakes and own them, than the person who won't admit that they have made a mistake. Not admitting them usually ends up hurting you even more in the end anyway. You either get caught in a lie or the situation drags on longer than necessary.
If this was in the real world, I would say yes it would look better. Trump may simply be planning a long game with this and letting the cards fall where they will. If he apologizes, he is admitting guilt, not to just the one offence, but everything they have accused him of all along. Trump not backing down is also what helped him win in the first place. His supporters know this. He won as a result of Hillary. I think it would end his chances by openly admitting it.

But I am like you. It's easier to forgive if someone legitimately as for it. But in politics, i believe nothing any of them says
 
Anyone here actually believe Warren's plan to cover her Medicare for all? At least Bernie is honest about taxes going up.
 
Warren is banking on the average person being dumb enough to not realize that taxing the shit out of companies, and the people who own them, will just get passed along to the middle class anyways.
 
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Too bad it won't help Trump because everyone cares so much about the Kurds.
It's not just the abandonment of the Kurds which could cost Trump, as was previously discussed a few pages back. There's also the liberation of 11,000 ISIS soldiers, the empowerment in the region senselessly handed over to Russia and Iran, and the most flagrant blunder Trump has made -- single-handedly without seeking counsel, mind you -- since coming into office.

Dumbasses like you don't have the sense to care but hopefully enough of us do.
 
It's not just the abandonment of the Kurds which could cost Trump, as was previously discussed a few pages back. There's also the liberation of 11,000 ISIS soldiers, the empowerment in the region senselessly handed over to Russia and Iran, and the most flagrant blunder Trump has made -- single-handedly without seeking counsel, mind you -- since coming into office.

Dumbasses like you don't have the sense to care but hopefully enough of us do.
Someone who thinks the Kurds will swing the election is the dumbass.
 
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Nothing trump does at this point will have any effect on how his supporters view him. Its a cult of personality in trumpistan.

Who the DNC nominates will decide the election. If it’s a candidate who can generate enough enthusiasm for a decent turnout then trump will lose. If they go the establishment route with someone like Biden then trump wins.
 
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Nothing trump does at this point will have any effect on how his supporters view him. Its a cult of personality in trumpistan.

Who the DNC nominates will decide the election. If it’s a candidate who can generate enough enthusiasm for a decent turnout then trump will lose. If they go the establishment route with someone like Biden then trump wins.
There is no one on the DNC side (who actually has a chance to get the nomination) that's going to generate enough enthusiasm if the economy is still strong. Biden is just a tamed down version of Trump and Warren has moved way too far to the left to win in the general election. Bottom line, if you want Trump out of office you need to hope for a recession.
 
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O'Rourke is gone. I dunno who his supporters were, or where they go.

I'm not sure which of the democratic candidates could beat Trump. If the economy remains as it is now, none of them. There has to be some kind of mess to clean-up, or get out of, in order for a president to be in real danger.

Bernie is ancient and his own health is probably in question, now. I don't think Warren has what it takes to beat Trump in the popularity contest that will take place next fall. Trump knows how to bullshit people, he's a master bullshitter. Biden is a loser candidate. He's a bigger loser than Hillary. He's like the Buffalo Bills of presidential candidates!

A recession is inevitable, and they always seem to occur after every GOP administration. Especially the two-term runs. I think the last GOP administration that didn't ruin the economy was Eisenhower, and his administration operated completely different than what the GOP is now!
 
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There is no one on the DNC side (who actually has a chance to get the nomination) that's going to generate enough enthusiasm if the economy is still strong. Biden is just a tamed down version of Trump and Warren has moved way too far to the left to win in the general election. Bottom line, if you want Trump out of office you need to hope for a recession.

Bernie packs arenas and fund raises as well as anyone without taking super PAC money. He generates as much enthusiasm as anyone in politics.

The economy isn’t doing that well for millions of people. Wages are still lagging, while income and wealth inequality are still growing.

And there’s a reason that the Fed keeps cutting rates. They’re nervous about a recession. The market is massively overvalued right now.
 
Bernie packs arenas and fund raises as well as anyone without taking super PAC money. He generates as much enthusiasm as anyone in politics.

The economy isn’t doing that well for millions of people. Wages are still lagging, while income and wealth inequality are still growing.

And there’s a reason that the Fed keeps cutting rates. They’re nervous about a recession. The market is massively overvalued right now.
I agree, people have moved a lot of money out of the bond market because there was no money to be made.
 
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Who the DNC nominates will decide the election. If it’s a candidate who can generate enough enthusiasm for a decent turnout then trump will lose. If they go the establishment route with someone like Biden then trump wins.
Completely agree. I don't think there's much that's been in these debates that will drum up any enthusiasm. Maybe Buttigieg? But doubt the Dems send him out there, they'll trot out one of the favorites that have no chance (Biden or Warren). Out of all the people that have no chance at getting the nomination (Sanders, Buttigieg, Harris, and the rest of the also-rans) I think Mayor Pete would have the best shot at beating Trump.
 
Completely agree. I don't think there's much that's been in these debates that will drum up any enthusiasm. Maybe Buttigieg? But doubt the Dems send him out there, they'll trot out one of the favorites that have no chance (Biden or Warren). Out of all the people that have no chance at getting the nomination (Sanders, Buttigieg, Harris, and the rest of the also-rans) I think Mayor Pete would have the best shot at beating Trump.

You think the mayor who can’t run his own city has a better chance than Bernie? I don’t see how that makes any sense.

I get that most of this board hates Bernie. But he has more grassroots support than anyone on either side of the aisle. He’s the only candidate who has rallies that are even bigger than trumps. If he gets the nomination then there will be a huge surge in young voter participation. He’s consistently polled as being the most favorably viewed and trusted politician in Washington and most of his platform polls well with the general public despite the constant attempts to smear him as some kind of communist. Unlike warren he has detailed plans that actually account for how he would pay for all of his policies. Right wingers will never admit it, but he is the strongest candidate against trump.

The DNC will do everything in their power to prevent him from getting the nomination because of his views on getting money out of politics. They don’t want the gravy train to stop anymore than the republicans do.

All that being said he should start referring to himself as a social democrat instead of democratic socialist. And never talk about inmates being allowed to vote ever again.
 
The key for the Dem winner to beat Trump is winning the swing/battleground states. I think Buttigieg has the better chance to win those midwestern/rust belt states that Clinton lost. The far left may make up a decent enough size of the Democratic Party to give someone the nomination, but the far left isn't a big enough portion of the overall electorate to beat Trump.

The Dem is winning CA, OR, WA, MA, NY, VT, etc regardless of who it is. Maybe Bernie gets 75% of the vote in those states and Buttigieg would only get 65%, or whatever the number are. But it doesn't matter. A won state is a won state. But Pete could potentially pick up OH, PA, MI, by getting the center-left vote. I don't think there's enough far left in those states for Bernie to win them over Trump.
 
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The key for the Dem winner to beat Trump is winning the swing/battleground states. I think Buttigieg has the better chance to win those midwestern/rust belt states that Clinton lost. The far left may make up a decent enough size of the Democratic Party to give someone the nomination, but the far left isn't a big enough portion of the overall electorate to beat Trump.

The Dem is winning CA, OR, WA, MA, NY, VT, etc regardless of who it is. Maybe Bernie gets 75% of the vote in those states and Buttigieg would only get 65%, or whatever the number are. But it doesn't matter. A won state is a won state. But Pete could potentially pick up OH, PA, MI, by getting the center-left vote. I don't think there's enough far left in those states for Bernie to win them over Trump.

You’re assuming it’s only the “far left” that supports Bernie. It’s not.

Buttigieg doesn’t have the name recognition that Bernie has. And the “center-left” is already going to vote for anyone that isn’t named trump.
 
You’re assuming it’s only the “far left” that supports Bernie. It’s not.

Buttigieg doesn’t have the name recognition that Bernie has. And the “center-left” is already going to vote for anyone that isn’t named trump.

The center-left has some of the worst voter turnout for elections not involving Obama. That's the dems issue, their moderates just simply don't turn up.
 
The center-left has some of the worst voter turnout for elections not involving Obama. That's the dems issue, their moderates just simply don't turn up.
The key for the dems is to get enough center right moderates. Everyone else is voting for the dem nominee already. Bernie (and the rest of the dems) doesn't excite those people. I respect the fact that he was honest about raising taxes, but that isn't going to get him the votes he needs in the states he needs them. There's a reason why the dem higher ups are worried about how the nomination process is unfolding.
 
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The center-left has some of the worst voter turnout for elections not involving Obama. That's the dems issue, their moderates just simply don't turn up.

It’s not just the moderates who don’t show up. Lots of progressives are young and young voters have the worst turnout of any demographic.

The key for the dems is to get enough center right moderates. Everyone else is voting for the dem nominee already. Bernie (and the rest of the dems) doesn't excite those people. I respect the fact that he was honest about raising taxes, but that isn't going to get him the votes he needs in the states he needs them. There's a reason why the dem higher ups are worried about how the nomination process is unfolding.

I don’t think they need center right moderates to win. Hillary lost some normally blue states because the working class didn’t like her. She comes across as elitist, where Bernie reads as populist. Plus he’s a lifelong union advocate which plays well in blue collar states throughout the rust belt. The dem nominee doesn’t need the center right to vote for them, they just need them to be hesitant to vote for trump. And truly moderate voters are already pretty turned off by trump. Moderates tend to like stability and this administration does not offer much of that.
 
It’s not just the moderates who don’t show up. Lots of progressives are young and young voters have the worst turnout of any demographic.



I don’t think they need center right moderates to win. Hillary lost some normally blue states because the working class didn’t like her. She comes across as elitist, where Bernie reads as populist. Plus he’s a lifelong union advocate which plays well in blue collar states throughout the rust belt. The dem nominee doesn’t need the center right to vote for them, they just need them to be hesitant to vote for trump. And truly moderate voters are already pretty turned off by trump. Moderates tend to like stability and this administration does not offer much of that.
I think you're overestimating the enthusiasm for Bernie. Bringing in money and support from voters that already support you isn't what makes a difference. Bernie just doesn't have the personality or policies to overcome the economy. It's kinda a pointless debate though. The dems won't let him win. They'll end up running Warren and she'll most likely lose. Recession is the key to beating Trump.
 
I think you're overestimating the enthusiasm for Bernie. Bringing in money and support from voters that already support you isn't what makes a difference. Bernie just doesn't have the personality or policies to overcome the economy. It's kinda a pointless debate though. The dems won't let him win. They'll end up running Warren and she'll most likely lose. Recession is the key to beating Trump.
Bernie didn't get any favors done for him when the "Squad" endorsed him either.
 
I can't see what this version of Bernie has that the last didn't. The Dems cast their lot with Hillary, and may still pay the price for that. Meanwhile, I agree with @tarheel0910 that the economy has to tank to beat trump. Bernie may give him a run though.
 
To paraphrase what some others have said here, what does Bernie have to offer independents, center-left, center-right, populist / blue-collar Dems who voted last time for Trump (especially in swing and midwestern / "Hillbilly El0gy" areas)? I'm pretty sure Trump has positions favorable to Bernie on:
  • Green New Deal (worst job-killing scheme ever)- and assault on the US energy industry
  • Abortion until point of birth
  • Higher taxes for all who pay taxes
  • Gun confiscation
  • Elimination of private insurance (negatively impacting 1/6 of US economy, and health care quality and timeliness for millions
  • Mandatory US minimum wage rates (which always lead to significant reduction in jobs for working class)
  • Pro-illegal-immigration stance (sanctuary cities, no crackdown on hirers) which also hurts employment and wages for working class and minority citizens
  • Activist vs. constructionist judges

I know many hate Trump the person - and I can understand that. But unless the economy tanks big time, there is no way even with record youth turnout, there are enough votes for Bernie to win. These moderates, independents are quite happy with the economy, jobs, etc. What is going to drive them to vote for someone promising to instill policies that will take all these things they like - away from them?

(Note: the unemployment rate overall and especially for minorities is lower than any time in history. How many of these now gainfully employed people, especially in swing / purple states, are going to roll the dice and vote for a guy who might cause them to lose the job they just recently got? What benefit is in if for them to outweigh this risk?

And Bernie's rallies aren't as big as Trumps, FWIW. And Trump crushes Bernie in fund raising at every level, including small $ amount and individual donor count.
 
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To paraphrase what some others have said here, what does Bernie have to offer independents, center-left, center-right, populist / blue-collar Dems who voted last time for Trump (especially in swing and midwestern / "Hillbilly El0gy" areas)? I'm pretty sure Trump has positions favorable to Bernie on:
  • Green New Deal (worst job-killing scheme ever)- and assault on the US energy industry
  • Abortion until point of birth
  • Higher taxes for all who pay taxes
  • Gun confiscation
  • Elimination of private insurance (negatively impacting 1/6 of US economy, and health care quality and timeliness for millions
  • Mandatory US minimum wage rates (which always lead to significant reduction in jobs for working class)
  • Pro-illegal-immigration stance (sanctuary cities, no crackdown on hirers) which also hurts employment and wages for working class and minority citizens
  • Activist vs. constructionist judges

I know many hate Trump the person - and I can understand that. But unless the economy tanks big time, there is no way even with record youth turnout, there are enough votes for Bernie to win. These moderates, independents are quite happy with the economy, jobs, etc. What is going to drive them to vote for someone promising to instill policies that will take all these things they like - away from them?

(Note: the unemployment rate overall and especially for minorities is lower than any time in history. How many of these now gainfully employed people, especially in swing / purple states, are going to roll the dice and vote for a guy who might cause them to lose the job they just recently got? What benefit is in if for them to outweigh this risk?

And Bernie's rallies aren't as big as Trumps, FWIW. And Trump crushes Bernie in fund raising at every level, including small $ amount and individual donor count.

Well this is going to be a long reply because you made a lot of inaccurate claims.

The notion that the green new deal is the "worst job killing scheme in American history" is actually hilarious. That kind of jingoistic nonsense is what's wrong with political discourse today. We cannot continue to burn fossil fuels to produce energy. The climate science is crystal clear on this. Converting to sustainable energy systems will create millions of jobs. 20 million estimated jobs according to Sanders' plan. If you want to call the modernization of our energy industry an "assault" then go for it, but you sound like a Fox News headline.

Bernie Sanders has never said he supports abortion up until birth. He has repeatedly said that it should be between a woman and her physician. There has been inaccurate propaganda attacking both Hillary and Bernie that makes this claim since 2016, which has been repeatedly debunked. https://www.politifact.com/facebook...ct-checking-bernie-sanders-abortion-position/

The increase in taxes has also been analyzed by economists like Robert Reich. The vast majority of Americans would save money because they would no longer be paying for private health insurance. And their taxes would be going towards infrastructure and services that actually benefit them instead of massive subsidies for the oil industry.

Gun confiscation? Lol. You really need to stop getting your information about Bernie from fox news. Here's a quote from him. “Folks who do not like guns [are] fine. But we have millions of people who are gun owners in this country — 99.9 percent of those people obey the law. I want to see real, serious debate and action on guns, but it is not going to take place if we simply have extreme positions on both sides. I think I can bring us to the middle.” He's a senator in one of the biggest hunting states in the country. He's argued that gun control should come down to the states. If he was advocating for gun confiscation, his constituents in Vermont would have voted him out of office a long time ago.

Private health insurance is a scam. They tell you what doctors you can/can't see, and do everything in their power not to pay for your healthcare despite the fact that you paid for insurance. That's how the insurance industry works. The entire healthcare industry accounts for 1/6th of the economy, not health insurance. People aren't going to just stop getting healthcare if we eliminate private health insurance. In fact, studies have shown that people are more likely to get routine checkups and preventive care when they can afford regular doctor's visits. Furthermore, the US consistently struggles in healthcare outcomes when compared to other industrialized nations with national healthcare systems. The current system is broken and needs to be massively overhauled. Medicare for all seems like as good of an option as I've seen.

We already have a mandatory minimum wage. The problem is that it's been locked since 2009 while inflation has eaten away at the purchasing power of that wage. You don't have to be an economist to understand the difference between nominal and real wages. The minimum wage should be tied to inflation so that the minimum wage offers enough purchasing power to actually survive on. The arguments that people should just work harder or get a promotion shows how ignorant conservatives are of economics and game theory. Corporations have a shared interest in keeping wages low. They have all of the market power because they are the ones offering the jobs and people need jobs. So they have no incentive to raise wages out of the goodness of their hearts or just because one laborer is "worth more." The only way that working conditions and pay improves for the working class is through organized public action. Unions got us weekends, and 40 hour workweeks. Public action got children out of factories. The support for raising the minimum wage has grown to the point where many corporations have stopped lobbying against it because the incentives have shifted to the point where they can't afford the hit to their public reputation.

Actually here are the bullet points from Bernie's own website regarding his stance on immigration.
  • Enact comprehensive immigration reform, including a path towards citizenship.
  • Expand DACA and DAPA, including providing immediate legal status for young people eligible for the DACA program and developing a humane policy for those seeking asylum.
  • Completely reshape and reform our immigration enforcement system, including fundamentally restructuring ICE, an agency Senator Sanders voted against creating.
  • End the barbaric practice of family separation and detention of children in cages.
  • Dismantle cruel and inhumane deportation programs and detention centers.
  • Establish standards for independent oversight of relevant agencies within DHS.
  • Enact comprehensive immigration reform, including a path towards citizenship.
  • Expand DACA and DAPA, including providing immediate legal status for young people eligible for the DACA program and developing a humane policy for those seeking asylum.
  • Completely reshape and reform our immigration enforcement system, including fundamentally restructuring ICE, an agency Senator Sanders voted against creating.
  • End the barbaric practice of family separation and detention of children in cages.
  • Dismantle cruel and inhumane deportation programs and detention centers.
  • Establish standards for independent oversight of relevant agencies within DHS.
He's proposing a pathway to citizenship. That's not the same thing as advocating for the sanctuary city model.

With regards to fundraising... Republicans accept larger personal donations, and any money being donated towards the presidential race is going to one candidate because he's the incumbent. Bernie raised roughly 25 million last quarter. That's plenty of money, and it will only increase if he becomes the nominee. Fundraising is not an issue. This is the guy who changed the way politicians fund raise. He'll be fine.

Their rallies are on the same scale in terms of turnout. I don't have the numbers on hand to compare them, but I've watched Bernie repeatedly fill massive arenas and outdoor spaces. If his rallies are smaller than trumps then its only because they're choosing smaller venues. They're full to capacity just about every time.
 
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