Prayers for All Affected @ Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School

[nctransplant]

Yepp. I feel blaming trump or the nra is idiotic. It is our fault we have a gun culture and it is our fault we elect politicians that support it and its our fault we havent done anything about it. The blood’s on our hands. And i’m as guilty as anyone. I rent and attend movies where hundreds are gunned down, i let my son play video games where hundreds are murdered by guns, and i’ve supported politicians whom i have no doubt would support being able to own fully auto weapons. Gun violence is accepted and glorified here and that was the case way before trump.

I appreciate the honesty, most wouldn't be so honest and I realize we are on different sides of the political isle. My opinion is very similar to yours but I just can't put very much blame on the politicians. We have a lack of morals and values in America. And it begins at HOME. Too many broken families and dysfunctional families.
I believe the roles that politicians can play is to strengthen background checks to include mental disorders. If someone is against this, and they will be, allow those turned down due to mental disorders to be reevaluated on a yearly basis. Also eliminate the ability to purchase bumpstocks or any other device that the novice can make a gun automatic. Also raise the age to 21. Getting rid of certain guns is not the answer. More murders are committed annually with 22's than any other caliber. If someone really wanted to cause harm in schools they would use shotguns anyway because they'd be less likely to miss.
Local governments should allow some school personnel to be armed and make it known on the front door where by the way you have to be buzzed in because all other doors are locked.

Murder has been illegal since Cane and Able, and it will never end.

ETA: Where's the outrage for the 15 Law Enforcement officers killed this year?

 

[nctransplant]

Right now in America there are Republicans who received millions of dollars from the NRA accusing CHILDREN who survived a massacre of being PAID to speak out on guns.

Let that sink in . .

If you think this is a right or left issue you are missing the point. Both sides do this crap. It's a moral/mental health issue.

 

[heelmanwilm]

So what? Those don't cause violence. There is, at best, a small correlation between the two.

Its like an airline crash. Theres never one cause. Theres always a dz things that come together. We’ve created a culture that glorifies gun violence. No one thing (video games , ar 15’s, mental health) causes someone to shoot someone. But its an atmosphere and environment thats been created that tells people the way to settle scores and be a macho man is to kill someone with a gun and by god we’re gonna make it as easy as possible we can to buy one.

 

[heelmanwilm]

I appreciate the honesty, most wouldn't be so honest and I realize we are on different sides of the political isle. My opinion is very similar to yours but I just can't put very much blame on the politicians. We have a lack of morals and values in America. And it begins at HOME. Too many broken families and dysfunctional families.
I believe the roles that politicians can play is to strengthen background checks to include mental disorders. If someone is against this, and they will be, allow those turned down due to mental disorders to be reevaluated on a yearly basis. Also eliminate the ability to purchase bumpstocks or any other device that the novice can make a gun automatic. Also raise the age to 21. Getting rid of certain guns is not the answer. More murders are committed annually with 22's than any other caliber. If someone really wanted to cause harm in schools they would use shotguns anyway because they'd be less likely to miss.
Local governments should allow some school personnel to be armed and make it known on the front door where by the way you have to be buzzed in because all other doors are locked.

Murder has been illegal since Cane and Able, and it will never end.

ETA: Where's the outrage for the 15 Law Enforcement officers killed this year?

I concur. Well put.

 

[nctransplant]

So what? Those don't cause violence. There is, at best, a small correlation between the two.

I don't think they cause violence either but they do normalize it to some extent. Consider the audience. This is the same group eating detergent for God's sake.

 

[nctransplant]

Its like an airline crash. Theres never one cause. Theres always a dz things that come together. We’ve created a culture that glorifies gun violence. No one thing (video games , ar 15’s, mental health) causes someone to shoot someone. But its an atmosphere and environment thats been created that tells people the way to settle scores and be a macho man is to kill someone with a gun and by god we’re gonna make it as easy as possible we can to buy one.

The holier than thou Hollywood elites fall right into the same category. My blood boils everytime I see one of those hypocritical assholes talk about some crisis happening.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Right now in America there are Republicans who received millions of dollars from the NRA accusing CHILDREN who survived a massacre of being PAID to speak out on guns.

Let that sink in . .

I’m not saying I don’t believe you because I do. But I’ve not heard anything about that. You gotta a link or two?

I didn’t know that was going on because I’ve checked out on current affairs for the most part. All it does is rile me up and then I look like all of the chimps on Facebook that I make fun of. Instead of having a cow on social media, go spend time with your family and friends and try to enjoy the good parts of life.

Yepp. I feel blaming trump or the nra is idiotic. It is our fault we have a gun culture and it is our fault we elect politicians that support it and its our fault we havent done anything about it. The blood’s on our hands. And i’m as guilty as anyone. I rent and attend movies where hundreds are gunned down, i let my son play video games where hundreds are murdered by guns, and i’ve supported politicians whom i have no doubt would support being able to own fully auto weapons. Gun violence is accepted and glorified here and that was the case way before trump.

That’s a good poast. Real talk. It’s who we are. There is no fixing the problem though. No way, no how. If anything, all this attention will only make it worse. I think we need to direct our efforts towards problems that are solvable. This one isn’t.

 

[heelmanwilm]

The holier than thou Hollywood elites fall right into the same category. My blood boils everytime I see one of those hypocritical assholes talk about some crisis happening.

Definitely. They are CLUELESS.

 

[nctransplant]

I’m not saying I don’t believe you because I do. But I’ve not heard anything about that. You gotta a link or two?

I didn’t know that was going on because I’ve checked out on current affairs for the most part. All it does is rile me up and then I look like all of the chimps on Facebook that I make fun of. Instead of having a cow on social media, go spend time with your family and friends and try to enjoy the good parts of life.



That’s a good poast. Real talk. It’s who we are. There is no fixing the problem though. No way, no how. If anything, all this attention will only make it worse. I think we need to direct our efforts towards problems that are solvable. This one isn’t.

I have seen the kid that they are talking about. The uproar is because a few months ago the same kid was on TV whining about some lifeguard bullying a friend of his in California. They also showed several takes with the kid on CNN forgetting his lines during an interview about this shooting.

FWIW i don't give a damn what a 0-18 year old kid has to say about society really. When they get some real world experiences, a job, kids of their own and quit seeing how many stupid ass things they can do I might listen to their proposals.

 

[Grayhead]

It's the people. Normal people are not walking around fantasizing about shooting anyone up.
When I was a kid, we played army, cowboys and Indians, dirt clod wars, bb guns wars, and murdered any barbies I could find. Yes, video games and movies play a part. But there are also ratings on said games and movies that describe what's in them. IMDB has parents section that will describe in detail what's in the movies. Parents can block internet content if needed. Parents can teach proper use of weapons. Parents and teachers can clue in on unstable kids. We can instill stricter policies for owning any weapon. Reduce clip size.

But sure, let's ban certain guns. That will solve the problem.
Parents suck at being parents. They take discipline out of schools. The everyone is a winner mentality has ruined kids. Teachers have to be careful how they discipline kids now. Parents are prone to sue the school because little jonny has some sort of disruptive issue. Americans have created this issue at home.
My wife and I are very active in our kids lives. We teach them right and wrong. We don't condone violence or aggression unless we are defending ourselves.
I don't hunt. I enjoy shooting. I enjoy collecting guns. I also know if I have an unstable kid, they would never be allowed around my arsenal.

 

[tarheel0910]

This is a good read.

https://www.propublica.org/article/myth-vs-fact-violence-and-mental-health

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

"Trump signed a memorandum recommending that Attorney General Jeff Sessions propose regulations that would declare that bump stocks are illegal because they effectively turn legal semi-automatic weapons into outlawed machine guns."

That sick bastard, always in favor of the gun lovers and never caring about kids safety.

 

[tarheel0910]

"Trump signed a memorandum recommending that Attorney General Jeff Sessions propose regulations that would declare that bump stocks are illegal because they effectively turn legal semi-automatic weapons into outlawed machine guns."

That sick bastard, always in favor of the gun lovers and never caring about kids safety.

It was already proposed by congress last year and didn't get any traction.

 

[gteeitup]

It was already proposed by congress last year and didn't get any traction.

@Hark_The_Sound_2010 what he said^^^

it’s a start, though

 

[Littlejon]

I appreciate the reasoned and honest comments here and especially the respect and appreciation given by those on both sides of the political aisle within the ranks here. Few places I have been where this kind of dialogue can take place. Surprising since we do have some rather spirited folks on both sides, too!

Very good points made here. Lots of things have caused these types of incidents to take place and no one solution will fix it, if it can ever be fixed.

I don’t prescribe to the notion these kids are “actors” but I also don’t believe all of them are doing his on their own either. I do believe there are people pushing them to further their cause and these kids are like most kids today, they crave attention, so they go along with it. What saddens me most is hearing some of them talk and say things that make me realize just how much we have failed or allowed them to be failed.

One kid just said that since we have the most powerful military in the world, we don’t need a “well regulated militia” anymore. I’m sorry, but that is truly scary. If they are being taught to dismiss the second amendment so easily, how long before another generation dismisses other parts of the constitution or our laws so flippantly?

I don’t agree with a lot of things people do and then go hide behind the first amendment, but I sure as hell don’t want it eliminated. I think we all abhor slavery and our ancestors part in it, but I don’t want to stop teaching it. These kids dismiss others opinions so quickly and are so fast to not just stop people with different opinions from speaking, but want them punished for it that it is scary.

Look, I didn’t like Obama and certainly didn’t want Hillary to win. I didn’t like Bill either, but I never wanted them to die or to be ruined. Frog marched to prison for crimes if proven guilty, yes, but otherwise they are no different than anyone else who ran for or held a political office. Their opinions and ideas aren’t the same as mine but I would never want them to not be able to express them. Same with folks here. I disagree with a lot of you but I would fight as hard for your right to express them as I would my own.

The fact we have so few places like this to do so is just one more example of how far our failures have taken us as a society

I sincerely hope this forum never gets to that point. Some of you are a bunch of liberal loonies, but i sure as heck don’t want you to lose your right to be a liberal loon!

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

It was already proposed by congress last year and didn't get any traction.

@Hark_The_Sound_2010 what he said^^^

it’s a start, though

Not exactly sure how what Congress did last year factors into Trump's stance on guns... but ok.

 

[gunslingerdick]

This is a good read.

https://www.propublica.org/article/myth-vs-fact-violence-and-mental-health

That's the best piece that's been linked in this entire thread. Thanks.

 

[tarheel0910]

Not exactly sure how what Congress did last year factors into Trump's stance on guns... but ok.

It doesn't. I was just pointing out that congress did nothing about it, so any regulation that has to be approved by congress probably won't happen.

 

[tarheel0910]

That's the best piece that's been linked in this entire thread. Thanks.

Yeah, it does a good job of breaking down how much mental illness is connected to gun violence. As indicated in the article it's a small amount which is what gives me pause when someone says anyone who has a mental illness should never be able to get a gun. The problem is so much more complicated than mental illness and after these types of shootings happen, people want to rush to blame a group (politicians, mental illness, NRA, etc.) and don't want to really look at the problem closely. I can understand why people do it. It makes people feel better to do something, even if that something doesn't really solve the underlying issues.

 

[nctransplant]

Yeah, it does a good job of breaking down how much mental illness is connected to gun violence. As indicated in the article it's a small amount which is what gives me pause when someone says anyone who has a mental illness should never be able to get a gun. The problem is so much more complicated than mental illness and after these types of shootings happen, people want to rush to blame a group (politicians, mental illness, NRA, etc.) and don't want to really look at the problem closely. I can understand why people do it. It makes people feel better to do something, even if that something doesn't really solve the underlying issues.

IF mental illness were to be in background checks why not have a group of psychiatrists list or recognize what types of illnesses should be gun free?

 

[tarheel0910]

IF mental illness were to be in background checks why not have a group of psychiatrists list or recognize what types of illnesses should be gun free?

Well, they already are in background checks in a few states. Here's the thing though, there is probably not going to be a broad agreement on what those types should be. But is it really fair to single out a subset of a group that doesn't contribute the most to the problem? And then how exactly do we handle that without violating HIPPA? And will that person always be unable to get a gun? What if someone on that list is taking medication, has been going to therapy and shows no signs of illness for 5 years? Should they still be denied that right?

What worries me the most though is how will something like that impact people seeking help. The stigmas around mental health already impact people's willingness to seek out help. Is saying they are going to be put on a government list going to make the chances of them getting help less likely? That can lead to other societal issues. It's just a really complicated issue.

 

[nctransplant]

Two schools shut down today in Eastern NE because a couple of kids said they were going to shoot up the school. This is going to become an epidemic as well whether true or not. And I guarantee when they catch the little Tide Pod eater he or she will be patted on the back and analyzed over and over and told it is not his/her/theys fault. They were bullied, picked on or something instead of kicking their asses like their parents should do. Gun violence is a morality issue!

 

[nctransplant]

Well, they already are in background checks in a few states. Here's the thing though, there is probably not going to be a broad agreement on what those types should be. But is it really fair to single out a subset of a group that doesn't contribute the most to the problem? And then how exactly do we handle that without violating HIPPA? And will that person always be unable to get a gun? What if someone on that list is taking medication, has been going to therapy and shows no signs of illness for 5 years? Should they still be denied that right?

What worries me the most though is how will something like that impact people seeking help. The stigmas around mental health already impact people's willingness to seek out help. Is saying they are going to be put on a government list going to make the chances of them getting help less likely? That can lead to other societal issues. It's just a really complicated issue.

IDK all the answers here but I did suggest earlier that individuals should be able to reapply on a yearly basis.

This stuff has got to be addressed in the home. My house has always been full of guns. My youngest has suffered from depression, bipolar, and PTSD ,due to a piece of shit that I will probably go to jail over before I die, and my wife and I have always watched her like a hawk. Even now we keep a close eye on her. During her worst days I would have never allowed her access to my guns(hell we keep medicines locked away). It's got to happen IN HOME. As stated earlier people can cry, riot, protest all they want, nothing will stop people from killing.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Yeah, it does a good job of breaking down how much mental illness is connected to gun violence. As indicated in the article it's a small amount which is what gives me pause when someone says anyone who has a mental illness should never be able to get a gun. The problem is so much more complicated than mental illness and after these types of shootings happen, people want to rush to blame a group (politicians, mental illness, NRA, etc.) and don't want to really look at the problem closely. I can understand why people do it. It makes people feel better to do something, even if that something doesn't really solve the underlying issues.

Agreed. It's the same reason millions of Americans were perfectly happy leveling Iraq in the wake of 9/11. We just wanted someone to pay - whether or not they were actually in on it was irrelevant. I felt that way so I do indeed know what that feeling is like. But as history has proved, we were wrong then. More times than not, history shows that when you allow emotion to factor in on issues like this, you come out on the wrong end.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

What if someone on that list is taking medication, has been going to therapy and shows no signs of illness for 5 years? Should they still be denied that right?

Just playing devil's advocate here as I don't have a good fix for the problem either. But just because they are being prescribed medicine, doesn't necessarily mean they're taking it. Also, felons are permanently denied the right, even if the felony they committed was 50 years ago and they've been a model citizen ever since (just showing that there's precedent for barring a group for life).

Agreed that these issues would definitely negatively impact someone's willingness to self report mental health problems, which is something we obviously want to avoid incentivizing.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Just playing devil's advocate here as I don't have a good fix for the problem either. But just because they are being prescribed medicine, doesn't necessarily mean they're taking it. Also, felons are permanently denied the right, even if the felony they committed was 50 years ago and they've been a model citizen ever since (just showing that there's precedent for barring a group for life).

Agreed that these issues would definitely negatively impact someone's willingness to self report mental health problems, which is something we obviously want to avoid incentivizing.

Regarding medication, I saw a ridiculously long list the other day of people that have committed heinous gun crimes and it showed all the psychotropic drugs each was on when they committed the crimes. The piece I saw was attempting to make a correlation. I’ll see if I can track that down.

 

[tarheel0910]

Just playing devil's advocate here as I don't have a good fix for the problem either. But just because they are being prescribed medicine, doesn't necessarily mean they're taking it. Also, felons are permanently denied the right, even if the felony they committed was 50 years ago and they've been a model citizen ever since (just showing that there's precedent for barring a group for life).

Agreed that these issues would definitely negatively impact someone's willingness to self report mental health problems, which is something we obviously want to avoid incentivizing.

You can always test someone to see if they are on their meds. Also I don't think the comparison to a felon is valid. You choose to commit a crime. You don't choose to be mentally ill.

 

[nctransplant]

You don't choose to be mentally ill.

IDK about that, have you paid attention to some of the poast by these mouth breathing poors on this board, other than you and me?

 

[gteeitup]

hoping the town hall goes over well...it’s a bit contentious right now.

 

[BillyL]

So, there was an armed deputy at the school, on the grounds and he never entered the building . . what a scared POS this MFer was . .

From the article linked:

Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel on Thursday said he has suspended without pay the school resource officer who was at the Parkland school where 17 people were shot dead.

Israel said school resource officer Scot Peterson took a position outside of the school but "never went in" as the onslaught occurred, citing security footage.

"In the case of Scot Peterson, our school resource deputy, I want to clarify any rumors conjecture or stories that may have been out there," Israel said.

Another Scot(t) Peterson . . GFY.

My sadness grows . .

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local...r-Who-Was-at-Parkland-Shooting-474889753.html

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

So, there was an armed deputy at the school, on the grounds and he never entered the building . . what a scared POS this MFer was . .

From the article linked:

Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel on Thursday said he has suspended without pay the school resource officer who was at the Parkland school where 17 people were shot dead.

Israel said school resource officer Scot Peterson took a position outside of the school but "never went in" as the onslaught occurred, citing security footage.

"In the case of Scot Peterson, our school resource deputy, I want to clarify any rumors conjecture or stories that may have been out there," Israel said.

Another Scot(t) Peterson . . GFY.

My sadness grows . .

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local...r-Who-Was-at-Parkland-Shooting-474889753.html

That's unreal. There's gotta be some sort of criminal negligence or something that they can get him on (I'm assuming "Being a pussy bitch" isn't a law on the books), because him blatantly not doing his job probably cost someone their life (although a good lawyer could refute that).

 

[BillyL]

That's unreal. There's gotta be some sort of criminal negligence or something that they can get him on (I'm assuming "Being a pussy bitch" isn't a law on the books), because him blatantly not doing his job probably cost someone their life (although a good lawyer could refute that).

I can see some massive lawsuits being filed for certain . . who knows where they go after adjudication.

 

[BillyL]

Armed deputy Scot Peterson has resigned.

See ya, Scot . . you are one big brave MFer.

Unarmed teachers are taking bullets to save their students, while Mr. Peterson was hiding in the bushes . .

 

[gteeitup]

this is sad and pathetic.

and some want to arm untrained teachers for moments like this?

eta: how much training would this take?...don’t teachers have enough stress and enough work to deal with?

 

[strummingram]

this is sad and pathetic.

and some want to arm untrained teachers for moments like this?

"Mrs. McGilligutty, WHY didn't you fire your weapon?!?!?!?!"

 

[TarHeelMark]

this is sad and pathetic.

and some want to arm untrained teachers for moments like this?

This is ludicrous. Even law enforcement and military trained personnel struggle with the aftermath of taking a life. How the HELL does it make sense to put teachers in that position?

 

[tarheel0910]

this is sad and pathetic.

and some want to arm untrained teachers for moments like this?

eta: how much training would this take?...don’t teachers have enough stress and enough work to deal with?

I'm not sure exactly how I feel about teachers having guns. If you do it, then it should only be a few and they should have to go through the same firearms training that cops do. They should also have to do some sort of continuing education on it as well as show excellent marksmanship.

 

[TarHeelMark]

And what’s gonna happen when one of these gun-toting teachers, tries to get all billy bad-ass one day when students are giving him (or her) hell in class for whatever reason... and pulls their gun on them? eventually you know this will happen because.... ‘Murica.

 

[gteeitup]

I'm not sure exactly how I feel about teachers having guns. If you do it, then it should only be a few and they should have to go through the same firearms training that cops do. They should also have to do some sort of continuing education on it as well as show excellent marksmanship.

my point is, teachers train daily, undocumented...now someone is going to ask them to specifically train for an active shooter by carrying a weapon?...i know at the elementary school where i’ve been on the pto board for seven years, it’s not a great idea...those teachers need don’t need weapons, they need funding, supplies, and parents involved.

if this admin wants to pay for arming schools, then pay for additional sro’s at schools.

 

[tarheel0910]

my point is, teachers train daily, undocumented...now someone is going to ask them to specifically train for an active shooter by carrying a weapon?...i know at the elementary school where i’ve been on the pto board for seven years, it’s not a great idea...those teachers need don’t need weapons, they need funding, supplies, and parents involved.

if this admin wants to pay for arming schools, then pay for additional sro’s at schools.

I understand all of that and like I said, I'm not sure exactly how I feel about the idea. That being said, you asked how would it work and I think that all the stuff I listed would need to happen if they decided to arm them.