BBall, I really hope this is just the beginning of many more posts from you because you nailed this one! No, Dean would not have played with this nonsense but then again, the changes in the mindset of players was one of the main reasons Dean decided to step away when he did.
Serious question, the question no one wants to ask?
- Thread starter DSouthr
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Time for the back to the transition game, heck it is way past time for that, it has been way past time for that for way to long! What baffles me is how could Hubert play 4yrs for Dean, assistant coach for Roy for 9yrs, and not consider the very beginning starting point for UNC offense not be the primary and secondary breaks? I mean...Somebody needs to help me understand that...Because I don't get that at all...
totally agree. it’s not like we are running a ton of sets in the half court so what exactly are we practicing? Because it surely isn’t primary and secondary breaks because those are nowhere to be found.
Our offense is 11th in the country in offensive efficiency so I'm not sure how much of a problem that is. Our offensive efficiency is also the exact same as it was last year. I agree that more transition is good. But I don't think Caleb is someone who can handle leading the primary/secondary break all that well. Idk, maybe we're just as good as we were in the regular season last year? Numbers seem to indicate that.
I disagree that UNC should run primary/secondary break because that's what we always did. I know Caleb was a freshman, but when he had to run Roy's offense during the Covid year, he was an absolute disaster. Like... Most inefficient season ever kind of bad??? I understand that was a weird year, and Roy for whatever reason thought Garrison Brooks was better at basketball than Walker Kessler and Day'Ron Sharp (lol). Maybe him being a junior now solves all of that. But part of me thinks that a player like Caleb just can't handle that kind of structure.
To me, it's this simple. If Caleb Love shoots 35% from 3 or better for the rest of the year we'll be competitive. It would help if RJ shot it a little better. It would help if Nance shot it like he did last year, but I think last year was an outlier. He's a mid 30's shooter. But Caleb takes the most, so it's more important that he shoots it better. There are encouraging signs? 32% from 3 since the Alabama game. But that isn't good enough. He needs shoot the way he did from 3 last year for the rest of this season. If that happens, we'll be competitive. If he shoots in the 20%'s this season, then I don't care how many Roy box sets you run. We're not good enough defensively to beat other teams with 2-pointers. The only path to special for this team is if they're efficient from 3.
I get there's more to it. Caleb needs to be aggressive, but controlled aggressive, better decision maker, etc... But he hasn't been that for 2+ years. You really think that's going to change why? He's shown us who he is for 2+ years, an immensely talented, yet immensely flawed player.
We were special in March last year for 2 reasons. First, we defended better than we did all of the regular season. But basically every game, we had either one or two dudes who shot the lights out.
Marquette: Manek and Love combined 11/23 from 3
Baylor: RJ and Manek combined 9/18 from 3
UCLA: Love 6/13 from 3
St. Peters: Manek 4/6 from 3
Duke (more of a Bacot game): Manek/Black/RJ: 7/15 from 3
Kansas: Everyone but Manek: 2/17 from 3
I personally don't think we're good enough to beat teams from 2 this season. We're not all that talented. When you're not all that talented, you need to be efficient from 3 to beat the better teams. Remember the teams that beat the really good Roy teams. It feels like all of them shot the ball really well. The shoe is on the other foot for us.
I disagree that UNC should run primary/secondary break because that's what we always did. I know Caleb was a freshman, but when he had to run Roy's offense during the Covid year, he was an absolute disaster. Like... Most inefficient season ever kind of bad??? I understand that was a weird year, and Roy for whatever reason thought Garrison Brooks was better at basketball than Walker Kessler and Day'Ron Sharp (lol). Maybe him being a junior now solves all of that. But part of me thinks that a player like Caleb just can't handle that kind of structure.
To me, it's this simple. If Caleb Love shoots 35% from 3 or better for the rest of the year we'll be competitive. It would help if RJ shot it a little better. It would help if Nance shot it like he did last year, but I think last year was an outlier. He's a mid 30's shooter. But Caleb takes the most, so it's more important that he shoots it better. There are encouraging signs? 32% from 3 since the Alabama game. But that isn't good enough. He needs shoot the way he did from 3 last year for the rest of this season. If that happens, we'll be competitive. If he shoots in the 20%'s this season, then I don't care how many Roy box sets you run. We're not good enough defensively to beat other teams with 2-pointers. The only path to special for this team is if they're efficient from 3.
I get there's more to it. Caleb needs to be aggressive, but controlled aggressive, better decision maker, etc... But he hasn't been that for 2+ years. You really think that's going to change why? He's shown us who he is for 2+ years, an immensely talented, yet immensely flawed player.
We were special in March last year for 2 reasons. First, we defended better than we did all of the regular season. But basically every game, we had either one or two dudes who shot the lights out.
Marquette: Manek and Love combined 11/23 from 3
Baylor: RJ and Manek combined 9/18 from 3
UCLA: Love 6/13 from 3
St. Peters: Manek 4/6 from 3
Duke (more of a Bacot game): Manek/Black/RJ: 7/15 from 3
Kansas: Everyone but Manek: 2/17 from 3
I personally don't think we're good enough to beat teams from 2 this season. We're not all that talented. When you're not all that talented, you need to be efficient from 3 to beat the better teams. Remember the teams that beat the really good Roy teams. It feels like all of them shot the ball really well. The shoe is on the other foot for us.
The Roy/Hubert thing is a false dichotomy. and Carolina transition is not about what we "always did". it's about it being a superior apporach to the game, that has the added benefit of mitigating much of trying to run an effective offense from a standstill without a legit PG. The real dichotomy is the night-and-day difference in how well we function as a team when we run the right way as opposed to when we stop.
I do believe going away from the two bigs down in the blocks is something that is really hurting the team. The idea of spacing the floor is a great concept because it is suppose to make room for the guards to drive and score or get fouled but also has some serious flaws. Less rebounding basically expecting Bacot to do all of the dirty work is not working.
Secondly having a 6 foot 11 player shooting jumpers instead of short hooks and layups in the blocks just does not make sense.
The biggest problem this season is so obvious and that being outside shots are just not falling…Instead of Davis and Love being forced to shoot long bombs because their is no movement I would put Nance, Puff, Nickel or Styles in the paint and use their talent down low to shoot short jumpers and layups.
If the outside shooting improves than maybe go back to the spacing offense but right now it is a cluster mess and I for one would like to go back to the two bigs. I also believe this would allow Washington to be more of a offensive threat…
Secondly having a 6 foot 11 player shooting jumpers instead of short hooks and layups in the blocks just does not make sense.
The biggest problem this season is so obvious and that being outside shots are just not falling…Instead of Davis and Love being forced to shoot long bombs because their is no movement I would put Nance, Puff, Nickel or Styles in the paint and use their talent down low to shoot short jumpers and layups.
If the outside shooting improves than maybe go back to the spacing offense but right now it is a cluster mess and I for one would like to go back to the two bigs. I also believe this would allow Washington to be more of a offensive threat…
If you run a 4 out scheme then the defenders have to respect all of the outside shooters, there in lays one of the problems. Defenses do not respect Leaky's jump shooting and they are not really worried about Nance's outside shooting either. So they are pulling off those 2 guys and basically playing a lot of 5 on 3 to stop our scoring in the paint. I have watched nance far to many times camp well past the 3pt arch and never step a foot in to the paint? He can hit a trey at times and I think most defenses will grant him that because he is going to miss a bunch of them to. But when that is compounded by Caleb missing open shots as of late it makes things really disjointed, just very little natural flow. Shoot first guards are trying to drive but defenders pull off Leaky or nance and double them & of course they end up putting up a shot from a game of horse with Bacot being the only Tar Heel in any kind of rebound position against what, 3 defenders?
My point is it isn't a spacing offense if we are not getting good spacing, if we are not actually spreading out the defense. I think Nance is perfect for a high low offense, a bit like Brice was. Bacot down low with nance at the foul line setting the top screen and either rolling down or sliding up for the kick back.
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"Nance is perfect for a high low offense, a bit like Brice was. Bacot down low with nance at the foul line setting the top screen and either rolling down or sliding up for the kick back"
I agree with this premise. I was watching the Rutgers /Purdue game last night and Matt Painter runs really good sets. Purdue has for the last number of years had similar personnel and play very much like Carolina.
They ran a set last night in which Edy was on the strong side block, pg (Smith) with ball on strong wing. Shooter in strong corner (Morton) Best shooter in opposite corner ( Foyer) 4 man at top of the key ( Gillis)
Sound familiar?😳
Gillis sets ball screen for Smith, then rolls behind the driving pg who has the lane. Rutgers center must stay home with the 7'4" Edy, the opposite corner defender stayed home on the shooter, so both Smith's defender and Gillis defender both went to stop ball, and Smith dropped off the easy pass to the trailing Gillus for an uncontested layup.
Yes! That is pretty much the beginning of our Secondary break in a nutshell, and Purdue ran the set 25 min into the shot clock.
This is the very thing Gary and Tarheel 75 have been preaching about for weeks now, and it puts Bacot ( Edy) Nance ( Gillis) and Love/ Davis (Smith) all in roles that benefit the team. I would love to see either Davis/ Love as the opposite corner shooter in this scenario.
We have got to manipulate more triangular offensive sets to attack defenses, rather than strung out perimeter screens/ handoffs.
I still think Nance is so much better than the way he is currently used.
I agree with this premise. I was watching the Rutgers /Purdue game last night and Matt Painter runs really good sets. Purdue has for the last number of years had similar personnel and play very much like Carolina.
They ran a set last night in which Edy was on the strong side block, pg (Smith) with ball on strong wing. Shooter in strong corner (Morton) Best shooter in opposite corner ( Foyer) 4 man at top of the key ( Gillis)
Sound familiar?😳
Gillis sets ball screen for Smith, then rolls behind the driving pg who has the lane. Rutgers center must stay home with the 7'4" Edy, the opposite corner defender stayed home on the shooter, so both Smith's defender and Gillis defender both went to stop ball, and Smith dropped off the easy pass to the trailing Gillus for an uncontested layup.
Yes! That is pretty much the beginning of our Secondary break in a nutshell, and Purdue ran the set 25 min into the shot clock.
This is the very thing Gary and Tarheel 75 have been preaching about for weeks now, and it puts Bacot ( Edy) Nance ( Gillis) and Love/ Davis (Smith) all in roles that benefit the team. I would love to see either Davis/ Love as the opposite corner shooter in this scenario.
We have got to manipulate more triangular offensive sets to attack defenses, rather than strung out perimeter screens/ handoffs.
I still think Nance is so much better than the way he is currently used.
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Carolina has historically been at its best when we have a scoring wing. I’m definitely not laying all blame on Leaky, but our record each year with him as a starter hasn’t been the best. His defense is good but not so good that it offsets the issues caused on the offensive end. The defense sags off him which creates issues elsewhere and he’s yet to develop a consistent shot to make them stop.
When you think about Barnes, Green, Jackson, McCants, etc you can see that having an effective scorer on the wing was critical to our best teams and to all of our championship teams.
When you think about Barnes, Green, Jackson, McCants, etc you can see that having an effective scorer on the wing was critical to our best teams and to all of our championship teams.
this right here is spot on. i’ve been saying for weeks the 4 out is trash because of our personnel, specifically Nance and Leaky, compounded by the fact that Davis and Love aren’t shooting at a high clip. Nance in the high post and Bacot on the block is a nice solution as I think Nance shows a nice enough mid range jumper and Bacot is a beast inside 5 feet to force their men to at least respect their position.
i said before the season started that Leaky returning was the best thing for him, but the worst thing for us long term. We know what he is and as you so nicely put it, his defensive prowess simply does not compensate enough for the empty jersey he is in the offensive end.
Unc usually has had a defensive stopper 2 also at those times in many cases. A Melvin Scott or a Jackie Manuel. Etc.
The Jackie Manuel year also had Felton/May/McCants who could all score 25+ in their sleep. Also, Jawad Williams probably would've been a 17/18 ppg scorer if he were the #1 option on a team? You can afford an offensive 0 if you have that kind of fire power in the top 6 of your rotation (Marvin Williams).
The Ginyard year before Green started, there was Lawson, Ellington, Hansbrough, Green, Davis, and Deon Thompson (who was a good 4th option).
Leaky's a sentimental favorite because he's been here forever. For this team, need a legitimate 3-and-d wing high volume 3-point shooter. Or if he can't shoot, a skilled 3 who can dribble, pass, and finish.
This. Even in those title scenarios, you still prefer an all-around wing like Justin Jackson if you can get them. But a defensive stopper (who preferably brings at least shooting on offense) can work, even if you'd love more. People assume any wing who's good on defense automatically fits into this valuable 3-and-D mold.
I'd argue Leaky is a bit overrated defensively by UNC fans (he doesn't make many splash plays off-ball and still gets beat a decent amount by quicker guys), even if he's very good there. We've never had a top 25 defense by Kenpom in the four years Leaky has played major minutes (highest D was ranked #27 in 2021). Much of that is the rest of the roster but Leaky surely isn't lifting us there on his own. For a major hoops school our defenses have been bad with Leaky.
And he doesn't do much at all on offense. Even Theo Pinson, a fairly flawed player for a championship level team, did a lot more offensively than Leaky. More scoring (13.8 points per 40 as a senior vs 8.6 for Leaky) on better efficiency (.532 on 2s vs .489) with more passing (6.8 assists per 40 vs 1.8 for Leaky this year or 3.4 for his career).
NO, Leaky is a sentimental favorite because he is a lock down defender, a guy that wants to take the other teams best player and shut him down. Leaky has been dinged up in the last few games, he isn't able to move like he needs to. But make no mistake about this, Leaky is a weapon many, no any team, would LOVE to have.
Problem is Leaky not only has to worry with his man but he has to as well try to hassle our starting 2 guards man because our 2 guard does not do defense unless he feels like it and he does not feel like it unless his jump shots are falling.
Not only that but RJ is not a good defender at all, just too small and not quick enough. The bad defenses aren't his fault but I don't agree with the sentiments that he's the top defender in the country or anything.
Not to be argumentative but you did just a few post up crown him as Berry, Marshall, and Lawson in one high school player!
He maybe all that but you can't gather all that info, from watching him play against other high school players. I don't care if you are Dean Smith, James Nasmith, and Phogg Allen all in one!
But with that said I hope you are right.
Of course you're being argumentative --- that, or you read selectively --- because what I (obviously) did was simply answer WWJD's comparison question as to a player's traits. What that player, or any prospect, ultimately becomes is always an open question.
With that said, I only rarely give virtual guarantees, and the record shows I did just that on here with both Butter and Berry while thay were stil in HS. So, I'll say that, barring injury and/or shortness of stay, Cadeau is the next in line in the PGU legacy,
You guaranteed Platek was the best PG on our roster. Just stop.
The problem is that you guys always overhyped everything here and then cry to the moon when we aren't the best in the world. Yinz did this all off-season going into this season, and I warned you all we had very serious issues with Manek gone and shouldn't be the #1 to start the season.
You ordain Love everytime he has a great game as some wunderkind when I warn you time and time again that Loves statistics very clearly spell out he is a volume shooter that is extremely inefficient from the field but can get streaky.
Cadeau may be a great PG. He may do great things. We have only seen what he has done in HS and that sort of level so far. He could be amazing or he can be a bust. We will see. Acting like all of UNCs troubles are completely solved without seeing him on the court yet is just overhyping and going to lead to a letdown even if Cadeau ends up being really good or great but not transcendent.
Marshall came in and blew away expectations. I am sure many would say Nassir Little came in and let down expectations. Little was ranked higher than Cadeau, Marshall much lower than Cadeau.
We will see. It bodes well for the future, but guaranteeing he comes in and solves all our problems is silly. RJ Davis is going to end up being the least appreciated player UNC ever had, and it's silly because he is a really solid player. But, we cannot accept really solid and instead have to have some mythical unicorn.
We got spoiled with Felton, Lawson, Marshall, Cota, and so on. But, we also got spoiled with our point guards because we had some extremely dominant players surrounding them also.
I don't believe for a minute that Cadeau would start over a Senior Davis or that it would work out well for us if he did.
The problem is that you guys always overhyped everything here and then cry to the moon when we aren't the best in the world. Yinz did this all off-season going into this season, and I warned you all we had very serious issues with Manek gone and shouldn't be the #1 to start the season.
You ordain Love everytime he has a great game as some wunderkind when I warn you time and time again that Loves statistics very clearly spell out he is a volume shooter that is extremely inefficient from the field but can get streaky.
Cadeau may be a great PG. He may do great things. We have only seen what he has done in HS and that sort of level so far. He could be amazing or he can be a bust. We will see. Acting like all of UNCs troubles are completely solved without seeing him on the court yet is just overhyping and going to lead to a letdown even if Cadeau ends up being really good or great but not transcendent.
Marshall came in and blew away expectations. I am sure many would say Nassir Little came in and let down expectations. Little was ranked higher than Cadeau, Marshall much lower than Cadeau.
We will see. It bodes well for the future, but guaranteeing he comes in and solves all our problems is silly. RJ Davis is going to end up being the least appreciated player UNC ever had, and it's silly because he is a really solid player. But, we cannot accept really solid and instead have to have some mythical unicorn.
We got spoiled with Felton, Lawson, Marshall, Cota, and so on. But, we also got spoiled with our point guards because we had some extremely dominant players surrounding them also.
I don't believe for a minute that Cadeau would start over a Senior Davis or that it would work out well for us if he did.
Platek was what they said he was, he just didn't get the minutes because the message board held him down, and Roy couldn't see he should have been the PG and not White.
Small sample size of a magical run led by our guards which has proven not to be the basis for this team. How did we do in the regular season with him?
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