Tuesday (2nd) Camp game...

[NathanFielder]

True, but that was the safe play - starting a highly experienced guy early on.

Correctly or not, many of us have felt that Hubert's too-easy reliance on Iron Man showed a preference for playing it safe over maximizing development.

There are some reasons why that may have been his preference previously but won't be this season:

Early in his HC career he may have felt his seat was a bit warm - meaning winning the current game took priority over developing for later in the year.​

​

Plus, a willingness to play a deep bench requires having confidence in the players. The Alabama game reminded us that confidence comes with a short leash for Hubert.​

From the little we've seen of Ian, Drake and Cade in the scrimmages, there's reason to think they may earn Hubert's confidence fairly quickly. Still some question marks among the bigs - although Zayden looks improved.

Nor would I expect Elliot or Seth to be consigned to the bench in close games this season.

How playing Paxson Wojcik was "the safe play" is something I don't understand. Paxson Wojcik isn't a starting-caliber player at UNC's level. How is it safe to start a player who isn't a starting-caliber player? Hell, he wasn't a rotation-caliber player. Starting Cadeau would've been significantly safer.

I'll get repetitive but if you think Puff, Dunn, Styles, Nickel, etc are really solid pieces and are players who contribute to winning, then fine they should've played more. I happen to think those guys aren't all that good and don't really contribute to winning. If you blame that on the fact that they didn't play enough at UNC... I don't know about that. If it feeds your argument, you can certainly use it though.

And also, enough with the development narrative.
- RJ Davis, a 5'11" 2-guard became an All American under Hubert. Unless that doesn't count since he was on the bench under Roy. Clearly all the developing must have happened under Roy since he was on the bench.
- Leaky Black was one of the worst players in the country under Roy, then got better at a meaningful basketball skill and became less awful offensively under Hubert. And then played in the freaking NBA as a rookie.
- Idk... Seth looked like he developed some as a sophomore. And I'm not even a big Seth fan, lol.

If you want development with his bench, I guess that's fine (again assuming you think the previous bench players had game). But it's a fallacy that players haven't been developed under Hubert.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

How playing Paxson Wojcik was "the safe play" is something I don't understand.

Apparently.

Apologies for sounding snarky, but it sure seems like you don't want to even try to understand. I mean I could be wrong, but the point seems pretty straightforward.

 

[NathanFielder]

Apparently.

Apologies for sounding snarky, but it sure seems like you don't want to even try to understand. I mean I could be wrong, but the point seems pretty straightforward.

I probably came off as a d-bag. Apologies if that's the case.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I probably came off as a d-bag. Apologies if that's the case.

Thanks. All's good.

 

[DSouthr]

True, but that was the safe play - starting a highly experienced guy early on.

Correctly or not, many of us have felt that Hubert's too-easy reliance on Iron Man showed a preference for playing it safe over maximizing development.

There are some reasons why that may have been his preference previously but won't be this season:

Early in his HC career he may have felt his seat was a bit warm - meaning winning the current game took priority over developing for later in the year.​

​

Plus, a willingness to play a deep bench requires having confidence in the players. The Alabama game reminded us that confidence comes with a short leash for Hubert.​

From the little we've seen of Ian, Drake and Cade in the scrimmages, there's reason to think they may earn Hubert's confidence fairly quickly. Still some question marks among the bigs - although Zayden looks improved.

Nor would I expect Elliot or Seth to be consigned to the bench in close games this season.

The narrative that Hubert was or is inclined to play the Iron 5 look, I would challenge that frankly. His first season as head coach, you have to look at how that season unfolded. Truth is Hubert seemed locked in on an 8 man rotation. But, Puff stayed hurt, Garcia decided to extend his family visit (I am being nice saying that) and Ant was ruled out. So we went from an 8 man rotation to 5 really quick. 8 man rotation is pretty much what most coaches look for, very few coaches will hinge their season on their #9 or 10 guy.

His next season, I felt Hubert simply showed his lack of experience, seemed to feel he had such great chemistry with the 4 returners that had played so well in the last NCAAT that add a highly rated big man that could jump shoot some and simply run it back. Fans seemed to agree before that season began, even the players seemed to play like it was going to be easy and as we saw, it wasn't. I* have beat Hubert up enough over that disaster of a season however. Last season was a stark improvement, did a fantastic job of filling needs from the portal with our last team, that last game vs bama, didn't like the coaching decisions but we have beaten that game to death and it has nothing to do with the Iron 5 question.

I feel like it was more just the situations that presented themselves at the time that Hubert had to make his way thru more than his being inclined to use a really short bench. My larger concern is that he does seem to let his more top level players play more minutes than I feel they should. Looking at the coming season, RJ is the only guy that I think Hubert will want to play well over 30mins a game, situation may dictate Jalen playing huge minutes and that does concern me, just not sure he is ready for that kind of season long usage, at this point all we can do is wait and see how it develops.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

The narrative that Hubert was or is inclined to play the Iron 5 look, I would challenge that frankly. His first season as head coach, you have to look at how that season unfolded. Truth is Hubert seemed locked in on an 8 man rotation. But, Puff stayed hurt, Garcia decided to extend his family visit (I am being nice saying that) and Ant was ruled out. So we went from an 8 man rotation to 5 really quick. 8 man rotation is pretty much what most coaches look for, very few coaches will hinge their season on their #9 or 10 guy.

His next season, I felt Hubert simply showed his lack of experience, seemed to feel he had such great chemistry with the 4 returners that had played so well in the last NCAAT that add a highly rated big man that could jump shoot some and simply run it back. Fans seemed to agree before that season began, even the players seemed to play like it was going to be easy and as we saw, it wasn't. I* have beat Hubert up enough over that disaster of a season however. Last season was a stark improvement, did a fantastic job of filling needs from the portal with our last team, that last game vs bama, didn't like the coaching decisions but we have beaten that game to death and it has nothing to do with the Iron 5 question.

I feel like it was more just the situations that presented themselves at the time that Hubert had to make his way thru more than his being inclined to use a really short bench. My larger concern is that he does seem to let his more top level players play more minutes than I feel they should. Looking at the coming season, RJ is the only guy that I think Hubert will want to play well over 30mins a game, situation may dictate Jalen playing huge minutes and that does concern me, just not sure he is ready for that kind of season long usage, at this point all we can do is wait and see how it develops.

The question I've raised previously is whether Iron Man is Hubert's preference or merely situational.

You are correct that there were "reasons" in his first 2 seasons (whether you agree that they were good reasons is another matter). But there weren't reasons last season, imo. So I and many others were hoping to see a big departure from Iron Man. Instead we got a small departure from Iron Man. Very small.

2023 - 7 guys with double digit minutes; 5 guys playing over 30 mpg
2024 - 7 guys with double digit minutes; 4 guys playing over 30 mpg

And, frankly, the only reason we didn't have 5 guys playing over 30 mpg last season was that Cadeau didn't live up to the hype.

This will be Hubert's 2nd season in a row with a full boat of quality players that he personally fitted together. If he doesn't move further away from Iron Man this season, I'll be ready to accept that that's his preference.

Iron Man isn't necessarily bad. So if that's what Hubert wants, and he wins with it, I think we'll all survive.

 

[dtodd4475]

I get the idea of having a number to discuss "iron 5" minutes. The 30 minute mark seems like a bad one to choose for me though. If you play 30 minutes, you rested a fourth of the game. A full quarter of bench time, without foul issues or injury is far from "iron" minutes in my opinion, for the top players. None of the top teams sit thier best over a quarter of the game.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I get the idea of having a number to discuss "iron 5" minutes. The 30 minute mark seems like a bad one to choose for me though. If you play 30 minutes, you rested a fourth of the game. A full quarter of bench time, without foul issues or injury is far from "iron" minutes in my opinion, for the top players. None of the top teams sit thier best over a quarter of the game.

There's nothing magical about 30 minutes. Or even double-digit minutes. But if you are going to discuss such things it makes sense to have touchstones - and those seem as good as any.

My sense is that RJ tends to run out of gas after playing long minutes in a long season. He still gives his all, because he's a tough competitor, but his all isn't his best when the tank is running dry.

Just using RJ as an example. The idea is that this is true for all players, but each player's "number" is unique to him and his training regimen. Some guys thrive on 37 mpg. Other's struggle at 28 or even less. What was Armando's number? What was Washington's? what was Elliot's? Some guys need to be pushed to a higher number (development) while some should be reined back a bit.

If you have 5 or 6 guys who thrive as Iron Men and only chump change on the bench then, sure, play Iron Man.

 

[dtodd4475]

There's nothing magical about 30 minutes. Or even double-digit minutes. But if you are going to discuss such things it makes sense to have touchstones - and those seem as good as any.

My sense is that RJ tends to run out of gas after playing long minutes in a long season. He still gives his all, because he's a tough competitor, but his all isn't his best when the tank is running dry.

Just using RJ as an example. The idea is that this is true for all players, but each player's "number" is unique to him and his training regimen. Some guys thrive on 37 mpg. Other's struggle at 28 or even less. What was Armando's number? What was Washington's? what was Elliot's? Some guys need to be pushed to a higher number (development) while some should be reined back a bit.

If you have 5 or 6 guys who thrive as Iron Men and only chump change on the bench then, sure, play Iron Man.

I get that, and agree. I think Hubert is very aware with his college and pro playing days (especially his "blood in the garden days" with the Knicks under Riley) of fatigue. I think he is big on earned time, and conditioning. RJ as an example, I think he is 100% in the able to play big minutes with little to no drop off as a 5th year guy.

I get the 30 touchstone, but for established, clear best position guys it's as arbitrary as any. If it is a competitive game, sitting one entire quarter is a ton in my opinion for your stars. I think the subs have to be good enough to push the 1st squad at each position to earn more than "get a blow minutes" for Hubert, When the games are tight in conference and tourney time. Stay ready, work hard, but floor time is earned not given, other than short "blows".

RJ may be the only sure thing as heads and shoulders above this year, I hope not, I hope others get to that, "we need them on the court" level, EC should be, hopefully. Should be great competition to see who earns those minutes, and how the rotation plays itself out.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I get that, and agree. I think Hubert is very aware with his college and pro playing days (especially his "blood in the garden days with the Knicks under Riley) of fatigue. I think he is big on earned time, and conditioning. RJ as an example, I think he is 100% in the able to play big minutes with little to no drop off as a 5th year guy.

I get the 30 touchstone, but for established, clear best position guys it's as arbitrary as any. If it is a competitive game, sitting one entire quarter is a ton in my opinion for your stars. I think the subs have to be good enough to push the 1st squad at each position to earn more than "get a blow minutes" for Hubert, When the games are tight in non conference and tourney time. Stay ready, work hard, but floor time is earned not given, other than short "blows".

RJ may be the only sure thing as heads and shoulders above this year, I hope not, I hope others get to that, "we need them on the court" level, EC should be, hopefully. Should be great competition to see who earns those minutes, and how the rotation plays itself out.

Here are the guys on our 2024-25 team who I think CAN play long minutes. That's not to say they will all play well as 35-mpg iron men - because we haven't seen all of them do that in Carolina blue - but they look like they can handle the minutes, if they get them.

That's 6 guys.

The good news is that Ian and Drake look ready to go, everybody is saying Washington is, too, and High looked good in the scrimmages. With that kind of bench, my hope is that Hubert doesn't feel the need to go Iron Man.

Player	MPG Last Season - Where
RJ Davis	34.8 - UNC
Cade Tyson	31.6 - Belmont
Ven-Allen Lubin	28.2 - Vanderbilt
Jae'Lyn Withers	12.4 - UNC (but 25.0 - Louisville previous year)
Elliot Cadeau	23.8 - UNC
Seth Trimble	17.1 - UNC

 

[dtodd4475]

Here are the guys on our 2024-25 team who I think CAN play long minutes. That's not to say they will all play well as 35-mpg iron men - because we haven't seen all of them do that in Carolina blue - but they look like they can handle the minutes, if they get them.

That's 6 guys.

The good news is that Ian and Drake look ready to go, everybody is saying Washington is, too, and High looked good in the scrimmages. With that kind of bench, my hope is that Hubert doesn't feel the need to go Iron Man.

Player	MPG Last Season - Where
RJ Davis	34.8 - UNC
Cade Tyson	31.6 - Belmont
Ven-Allen Lubin	28.2 - Vanderbilt
Jae'Lyn Withers	12.4 - UNC (but 25.0 - Louisville previous year)
Elliot Cadeau	23.8 - UNC
Seth Trimble	17.1 - UNC

It may be more cemantics for me with term "iron man minutes". I do not think Hubert did that last year. 30 to 32 type minutes is normal to me if you are a clear 1 at a position, RJ only one near 35. Mando, Cormac, and Harrison were clearly seperated from thier backups at thier positions. Most all good teams have multiple guys in the 30+ range. UNC was one of them.

The bench may be capable with conditioning, but do they earn near 20 minutes at this level with performance as it relates to who they are competing with for floor time on a UNC roster? If they can, Hubert will play them. As always I think Hubert will let a solid 8 to 9 man rotation work it's way out by merit, meaning around 8 to 10 or above nightly, by mid season at the latest.

Tyson is way up in competition, Ian/Drake freshman, Lubin up in roster competition, Jalen never more than 10-12 at this level, oft injured, Withers inconsistent, minutes were there for him to earn early last year as well, did not grab them, Seth got good minutes last year, dang near split with Cadeau. Go out and separate yourself fellas, earn the court time. EC and RJ, I think certainly will, the others are vying for extended minutes, if nobody steps forward those positions might indeed be filled by committee? I'm hoping some guys lay claim to "we want him on the court" for what he brings, 30 minute type guys.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

The bench may be capable with conditioning, but do they earn near 20 minutes at this level with performance as it relates to who they are competing with for floor time on a UNC roster? If they can, Hubert will play them.

Will he?

This is what I hope to learn this season.

 

[NathanFielder]

Here are the guys on our 2024-25 team who I think CAN play long minutes. That's not to say they will all play well as 35-mpg iron men - because we haven't seen all of them do that in Carolina blue - but they look like they can handle the minutes, if they get them.

That's 6 guys.

The good news is that Ian and Drake look ready to go, everybody is saying Washington is, too, and High looked good in the scrimmages. With that kind of bench, my hope is that Hubert doesn't feel the need to go Iron Man.

Player	MPG Last Season - Where
RJ Davis	34.8 - UNC
Cade Tyson	31.6 - Belmont
Ven-Allen Lubin	28.2 - Vanderbilt
Jae'Lyn Withers	12.4 - UNC (but 25.0 - Louisville previous year)
Elliot Cadeau	23.8 - UNC
Seth Trimble	17.1 - UNC

It's also the offseason where every player looks great and every team is undefeated in the offseason.

But this also isn't as simple as "play everyone." Maybe at the beginning of the season, you can experiment more. But we're going to find out certain things that limit a player's value with certain lineups. If Seth, Jackson, and Powell are minus shooters, they probably shouldn't play with certain lineup combinations, which will limit their potential playing time.

The bench will naturally have to contribute more unless Jalen Washington quadruples his minutes per game from last year. Assuming he doesn't, there will be a big-man rotation that sees much more bench usage.

I'm much more worried about can Elliot Cadeau make a 3? Can Washington hold up physically? Those are much bigger concerns than whether or not a bench player plays 13 minutes or 17 minutes.

I'm more concerned how static Hubert's half court offense will be then how many minutes Seth Trimble gets.

 

[Bubspub88]

Just for argument's sake:

Davis 32 minutes
Cadeau 25 minutes
Van Lubin 25 minutes
Tyson 23 minutes
Trimble 20 minutes
Withers 20 minutes
Washington 15 minutes
High 10 minutes


That is 170 minutes, leaving 30 split between Jackson and Powell.

I think there is a LOT of pressure on Hubert this season. If he winds up playing iron man again it is gonna be tough to continue to pull in highly ranked recruits and transfers. That roster does allow him to play a lot of different styles but is it harder to do that effectively than to focus on playing only one way?

 

[gary-7]

Just for argument's sake:

Davis 32 minutes
Cadeau 25 minutes
Van Lubin 25 minutes
Tyson 23 minutes
Trimble 20 minutes
Withers 20 minutes
Washington 15 minutes
High 10 minutes


That is 170 minutes, leaving 30 split between Jackson and Powell.

I think there is a LOT of pressure on Hubert this season. If he winds up playing iron man again it is gonna be tough to continue to pull in highly ranked recruits and transfers. That roster does allow him to play a lot of different styles but is it harder to do that effectively than to focus on playing only one way?

Despite the one glaring disconnect in that list, the point that there should be minutes available for our top-10 guys is valid.

 

[2DDIMOND]

Just for argument's sake:

Davis 32 minutes
Cadeau 25 minutes
Van Lubin 25 minutes
Tyson 23 minutes
Trimble 20 minutes
Withers 20 minutes
Washington 15 minutes
High 10 minutes


That is 170 minutes, leaving 30 split between Jackson and Powell.

I think there is a LOT of pressure on Hubert this season. If he winds up playing iron man again it is gonna be tough to continue to pull in highly ranked recruits and transfers. That roster does allow him to play a lot of different styles but is it harder to do that effectively than to focus on playing only one way?

I’ll try this game

Cadeau -31
Davis - 30
Lubin - 21
Tyson - 21
Washington- 20
Jackson - 19
Trimble - 18
Withers - 17
Powell - 12
High - 11

 

[dtodd4475]

10 guys averaging 10 minutes or up. I don't see that happening.

 

[gary-7]

10 guys averaging 10 minutes or up. I don't see that happening.

Why?

 

[Kool1234567]

I’ll try this game

Cadeau -31
Davis - 30
Lubin - 21
Tyson - 21
Washington- 20
Jackson - 19
Trimble - 18
Withers - 17
Powell - 12
High - 11

If it works out like this it means we are back to running teams out the gym again….Which is fine by me…

 

[DSouthr]

The question I've raised previously is whether Iron Man is Hubert's preference or merely situational.

You are correct that there were "reasons" in his first 2 seasons (whether you agree that they were good reasons is another matter). But there weren't reasons last season, imo. So I and many others were hoping to see a big departure from Iron Man. Instead we got a small departure from Iron Man. Very small.

2023 - 7 guys with double digit minutes; 5 guys playing over 30 mpg
2024 - 7 guys with double digit minutes; 4 guys playing over 30 mpg

And, frankly, the only reason we didn't have 5 guys playing over 30 mpg last season was that Cadeau didn't live up to the hype.

This will be Hubert's 2nd season in a row with a full boat of quality players that he personally fitted together. If he doesn't move further away from Iron Man this season, I'll be ready to accept that that's his preference.

Iron Man isn't necessarily bad. So if that's what Hubert wants, and he wins with it, I think we'll all survive.

When I consider this Iron 5 question and the concern that maybe we played our bench less than we maybe should have, I look more at individual players and ask if those on the bench should have been given more minutes. I think crystal clear to me that Jalen should have got more minutes and I do not see any justifiable explanation for that! OTHER than Jalen the case is harder to make. Hubert did give JWit EVERY chance to play well even at times when he looked to me like a walking turn over waiting to happen. Yes JWit "only" averaged less than 13mins a game, that lowered average did not reflect his usage later season. Paxon was given early, even started every chance to succeed and frankly just didn't. Seth was what, around 18mins a game and maybe a few more a game but many more minutes would have been there had he jump shot better. I do wish we had prepared Seth more as the primary PG back up. Yeah, I did and do feel RJ and Bacot may have played to many minutes considering that Seth and JWash backed those positions up. It was some what of a 8 man rotation and that is what most coaches look for.

 

[DSouthr]

I’ll try this game

Cadeau -31
Davis - 30
Lubin - 21
Tyson - 21
Washington- 20
Jackson - 19
Trimble - 18
Withers - 17
Powell - 12
High - 11

While I do like your minute allocation I do worry about not having our 1 guy with good length on the bench for half the game. How ever when I consider the player, Jalen, I would agree that he should play around 20-25mins a game, not comfortable having to play him much more than that for now. We really needed a center from this portal and we ended up with a 4 that can play "some" 5? I hope that is enough...

Can we get 11 solid minutes from High, have to see a lot more to be convinced of that but I would love to be assured of that! Can't help but snicker to see RJ getting a minute less than Cadeau, with Hubert as our coach? There is not a part of me that really thinks Hubert will play RJ for less minutes than he does Cadeau no matter what, not saying I agree but we have watched Hubert head coaching decisions for 3 seasons now, I think we know better by now.

 

[dtodd4475]

Why?

I think it is very hard to get continuity playing 10 guys over 10 minutes each. I think Hubert will settle on a hard 8, soft 9 after early season competition for those spots. I also think RJ and Cadeau will get big minutes, that leaves an awful lot of short minute spurts for others, that can be tough for rhythm.

Personally I hope a couple other guys emerge by separating theirself from the pack. Also seeing what court combinations compliment each others games the most will be interesting, with spacing, dee, boards, etc.

 

[gary-7]

I think it is very hard to get continuity playing 10 guys over 10 minutes each. I think Hubert will settle on a hard 8, soft 9 after early season competition for those spots. I also think RJ and Cadeau will get big minutes, that leaves an awful lot of short minute spurts for others, that can be tough for rhythm.

Personally I hope a couple other guys emerge by separating theirself from the pack. Also seeing what court combinations compliment each others games the most will be interesting, with spacing, dee, boards, etc.

Continuity can be built by committing to a deep bench early and committing to relentless transition.

 

[DSouthr]

Continuity can be built by committing to a deep bench early and committing to relentless transition.

100% agree, I would suggest the smartest way to build great team chemistry is by using a very deep bench. You MUST make good decisions on who you bring in and you must develop them, I don't care how many stars a kid has prior to getting to UNC. Practice is great but to develop players they have to play in games meaningful minutes or you waste your time.

But how do you keep your starters happy, they all want to play near 40mnins a game. Best way to do that is by ramping up the tempo on BOTH ends of the court so that the starters need to come out for a breather. That keeps your whole bench engaged more than a game where you go mostly Iron 5 does. When guys know they will get solid minutes off the bench they prepare for that game differently, they work harder to be as ready as they can be when their number is called if they know their number will be called.

When most folks talk about us ramping up the tempo they tend to be strictly talking on the offensive end, I am talking BOTH ends, not just the offensive end. That is a bit unique frankly, it is an approach to building a team that I think perfectly fits the way the game is played today. And one other thing that I have shared ion the past multiple times, I want us playing a very deep bench, I think this bench can go at least 10 deep and maybe 11 and I want to see that from the tip off of game 1 to the very last game we play for that season, yes, including post season! I am not a fan of coaches cutting down their rotations for post season play, play the approach that got you there!

Oh, and as a side note, playing deep bench as I suggest not only prepares you better for situational issues like foul trouble or injury, allows for fewer fouls (tired players tend to reach rather than move their feet), allows your players to have fresh legs for those jump shots but it tends to let your team going on nice runs where the opponents have to take a lot more bad shots to try to climb out of the hole they dug. But the opponents have to counter with guys NOT used to a lot of minutes and it tends to help you if you have a length disadvantage (big guys tire quicker than little fellas do).

 

[dtodd4475]

Continuity can be built by committing to a deep bench early and committing to relentless transition.

It can be, personally I think it is more difficult to do using short spurts of court time though. Playing 10 guys 10 minutes plus on average is an extremely rare thing, especially for top teams. I'm sure it has happened, but I can't think of one off hand. Kentucky did it last year, I wasn't a fan, I think it hurt their continuity. Even Norm Richardson's "40 minutes of hell" squads didn't quite do so. Mayberry and Day rarely sat. It looks like the '94 version of "40 minutes of hell" was right there, almost 10 averging 10 a game.

 

[gunslingerdick]

It can be, personally I think it is more difficult to do using short spurts of court time though. Playing 10 guys 10 minutes plus on average is an extremely rare thing, especially for top teams. I'm sure it has happened, but I can't think of one off hand. Kentucky did it last year, I wasn't a fan, I think it hurt their continuity. Even Norm Richardson's "40 minutes of hell" squads didn't quite do so. Mayberry and Day rarely sat. It looks like the '94 version of "40 minutes of hell" was right there, almost 10 averging 10 a game.

You are right. It’s extremely rare for that many guys to play and I agree with your overall sentiment regarding continuity. Conventional wisdom would suggest it’s hard to get in a rhythm and I believe it affects players’ psyche. But that second point is mitigated if it’s clear from the jump that the team will play deep. And if there was ever a team I wanted to see such style from, it would be this season’s Heels team. After RJ and Cadeau, it’s hard to make an argument for any other player to play 30 minutes. And there are just too many different skill sets that if somebody doesn’t get time, I’d feel like we’re not taking advantage of that particular player. We’re wasting that skill. Whether that be Jalen’s shooting from the 5, Seth’s defense, Cade’s shooting, Lubin’s offensive glass work, Withers’ athleticism, Ian’s explosiveness, or High’s energy. I doubt it happens, but I could be sold on the idea.

 

[gary-7]

It can be, personally I think it is more difficult to do using short spurts of court time though. Playing 10 guys 10 minutes plus on average is an extremely rare thing, especially for top teams. I'm sure it has happened, but I can't think of one off hand. Kentucky did it last year, I wasn't a fan, I think it hurt their continuity. Even Norm Richardson's "40 minutes of hell" squads didn't quite do so. Mayberry and Day rarely sat. It looks like the '94 version of "40 minutes of hell" was right there, almost 10 averging 10 a game.

Norm Richardon? Is that Nolan Stewart's cousin?

Sorry, that was too easy ...
bur seriously, this has zero to do with any other program. I'm just gonna step away from this and stand by what I posted. Carry on...

 

[dtodd4475]

Norm Richardon? Is that Nolan Stewart's cousin?

Sorry, that was too easy ...
bur seriously, this has zero to do with any other program. I'm just gonna step away from this and stand by what I posted. Carry on...

Nice catch, Nolan, maybe I was thinking of Cheers...😆

 

[dtodd4475]

You are right. It’s extremely rare for that many guys to play and I agree with your overall sentiment regarding continuity. Conventional wisdom would suggest it’s hard to get in a rhythm and I believe it affects players’ psyche. But that second point is mitigated if it’s clear from the jump that the team will play deep. And if there was ever a team I wanted to see such style from, it would be this season’s Heels team. After RJ and Cadeau, it’s hard to make an argument for any other player to play 30 minutes. And there are just too many different skill sets that if somebody doesn’t get time, I’d feel like we’re not taking advantage of that particular player. We’re wasting that skill. Whether that be Jalen’s shooting from the 5, Seth’s defense, Cade’s shooting, Lubin’s offensive glass work, Withers’ athleticism, Ian’s explosiveness, or High’s energy. I doubt it happens, but I could be sold on the idea.

We are on similar wave lengths. I am very interested in how the position battles will play out. Some very different strengths and weaknesses. I'm hoping some can assert thier skill set. Maybe Ian is a ready to cook freshman, maybe Tyson translates in a big way? If not it might be "bullpen by committee" and work the matchups and come in waves. Certainly an option. Hopefully Cadeau and RJ can anchor that style as Mayberry and Day did if needed.

 

[NathanFielder]

Ahhhh, the old minutes debate… I’ll start with Tyson. If he’s a 40%+ 3PT shooter, he’s playing more than 21 MPG and it would be a mistake to play him less than around 30 MPG. I don’t care where your line of demarcation is, but an elite shooter needs to be at that point.

I think RJ’s minutes will be interesting. This is the first time since he’s been a starter where he has an offensively gifted backup (on paper). If Ian Jackson is a bucket getter from day 1, he has some of RJ’s skills while being 3 inches or whatever taller. I think there’s a chance RJ’s minutes eventually get cut into if Jackson is as advertised. Obviously it won’t surprise me if RJ goes 35 MPG either.

A lot of RJ’s minutes though depend on Cadeau and Trimble. If both are good PGs, in theory RJ doesn’t need to play the PG. If those are 2 really inconsistent PGs then RJ will play more PG than many desire.

I don’t think we see 10 players playing 10+ MPG. I personally think that’s too much anyways. But highly unlikely everyone is good enough to play that much all the time.

But again, I don’t think the bench is all that important a topic for this team.

1. Will Cadeau improve offensively?
2. Is the Washington/Withers/Lubin/High combo (whatever that combo turns out to be) good enough to be a serious March contender.

Everything else IMO are distant question marks in terms of importance.

 

[adwood81]

Ahhhh, the old minutes debate… I’ll start with Tyson. If he’s a 40%+ 3PT shooter, he’s playing more than 21 MPG and it would be a mistake to play him less than around 30 MPG. I don’t care where your line of demarcation is, but an elite shooter needs to be at that point.

I think RJ’s minutes will be interesting. This is the first time since he’s been a starter where he has an offensively gifted backup (on paper). If Ian Jackson is a bucket getter from day 1, he has some of RJ’s skills while being 3 inches or whatever taller. I think there’s a chance RJ’s minutes eventually get cut into if Jackson is as advertised. Obviously it won’t surprise me if RJ goes 35 MPG either.

A lot of RJ’s minutes though depend on Cadeau and Trimble. If both are good PGs, in theory RJ doesn’t need to play the PG. If those are 2 really inconsistent PGs then RJ will play more PG than many desire.

I don’t think we see 10 players playing 10+ MPG. I personally think that’s too much anyways. But highly unlikely everyone is good enough to play that much all the time.

But again, I don’t think the bench is all that important a topic for this team.

1. Will Cadeau improve offensively?
2. Is the Washington/Withers/Lubin/High combo (whatever that combo turns out to be) good enough to be a serious March contender.

Everything else IMO are distant question marks in terms of importance.

I think question 2 is the one to watch and will be what determines the teams upside

 

[Ozheelfan]

Ahhhh, the old minutes debate…

I never bother with it…. Prefer to just watch what Hubert does and then work out what he did wrong.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I never bother with it…. Prefer to just watch what Hubert does and then work out what he did wrong.

LOL

 

[DSouthr]

I see folks throwing around this word "continuity", where was this continuity season before last where we started 4 guys that started in the prior national title game? We didn't even make the NCAAT, where did that magical "continuity" go? It sure didn't disappear by playing a DEEP bench did it? If playing that Iron 5 builds continuity well what happened then? I did see plenty of continuity on that team, I saw way to often Caleb missing jump shots "continuity" to missing more jump shots, this continuity stuff sure seems to have a double edge that cuts BOTH ways.

Teams catch hot streaks, individual players do as well. 2 examples, first the easy one, the hot streak we caught that took us from a season where we nearly missed the NCAAT all the way to playing in the natty game, see NC State last season as well. You want those hot streaks to continue I get that. Example #2 RJ last season, had that huge game where he blew his old point total for a game out, awesome game for use from him. As a team, when RJ got on that heater for that game, the team began looking for him every trip down court, everyone deferred to RJ, guys watching what RJ was doing rather than looking for their own scoring ops. Unfortunately that kind of continued to the point that we saw vs bama, RJ not hot what do we do now? Rely to much on one guy great when he is hot, not so great when he isn't.

I believe in 2 things for today's game, first make great decisions on who you bring in and trust those decisions. Second demand flat out effort on both ends of the court. The simple question is if you are going to play Iron man what part of the game are you willing to sacrifice? You can not expect a kid that is playing 38mins a game to be able to play just as hard with total effort late in a game, did you not see our running game slow to a crawl when we played Iron man?

You want continuity, I want consistency, I want consistent effort to continue from opening tip to final buzzer, I want us to be the stronger team late in the halves, late in the season, late in the post season, late in the natty game. But I do get it, what you really want is there not to be a drop off if we do use our bench heavy, you are scared a kid that gets hot will cool off if he catches his breath on the bench. I get that, I don't agree with it. I* believe that the fresher team has the advantage deep in halves, I believe the deeper team has the advantage in post season's short turn around formats, I believe the fresher team dictates tempo.

I believe that playing a deep bench not just reduces the hit when injury hits, not only better prepares you for foul trouble but it as well paves the way for those bench players to transition to future starting gigs that demand even more minutes. Iron 5 doesn't do that with all of it's "continuity". The continuity I do very strongly believe in is continuity of success from 1 season to the next and I believe that is achieved by consistency of bringing in and developing talented players that fit your approach over all and CONSISTENCY of effort in executing that approach on BOTH ends of the court approach.

So for those worried about "continity" I would ask of our top 11 guys on this roster who exactly do you not want to see playing more than cameo minutes next season? Brown would be everyone first pick for that but after that who, High, Lubin, JWit, Jwash, Seth, Ian Jackson, Drake Powell, Cadeau, Tyson, only guy left is RJ?

 

[dtodd4475]

I see folks throwing around this word "continuity", where was this continuity season before last where we started 4 guys that started in the prior national title game? We didn't even make the NCAAT, where did that magical "continuity" go? It sure didn't disappear by playing a DEEP bench did it? If playing that Iron 5 builds continuity well what happened then? I did see plenty of continuity on that team, I saw way to often Caleb missing jump shots "continuity" to missing more jump shots, this continuity stuff sure seems to have a double edge that cuts BOTH ways.

Teams catch hot streaks, individual players do as well. 2 examples, first the easy one, the hot streak we caught that took us from a season where we nearly missed the NCAAT all the way to playing in the natty game, see NC State last season as well. You want those hot streaks to continue I get that. Example #2 RJ last season, had that huge game where he blew his old point total for a game out, awesome game for use from him. As a team, when RJ got on that heater for that game, the team began looking for him every trip down court, everyone deferred to RJ, guys watching what RJ was doing rather than looking for their own scoring ops. Unfortunately that kind of continued to the point that we saw vs bama, RJ not hot what do we do now? Rely to much on one guy great when he is hot, not so great when he isn't.

I believe in 2 things for today's game, first make great decisions on who you bring in and trust those decisions. Second demand flat out effort on both ends of the court. The simple question is if you are going to play Iron man what part of the game are you willing to sacrifice? You can not expect a kid that is playing 38mins a game to be able to play just as hard with total effort late in a game, did you not see our running game slow to a crawl when we played Iron man?

You want continuity, I want consistency, I want consistent effort to continue from opening tip to final buzzer, I want us to be the stronger team late in the halves, late in the season, late in the post season, late in the natty game. But I do get it, what you really want is there not to be a drop off if we do use our bench heavy, you are scared a kid that gets hot will cool off if he catches his breath on the bench. I get that, I don't agree with it. I* believe that the fresher team has the advantage deep in halves, I believe the deeper team has the advantage in post season's short turn around formats, I believe the fresher team dictates tempo.

I believe that playing a deep bench not just reduces the hit when injury hits, not only better prepares you for foul trouble but it as well paves the way for those bench players to transition to future starting gigs that demand even more minutes. Iron 5 doesn't do that with all of it's "continuity". The continuity I do very strongly believe in is continuity of success from 1 season to the next and I believe that is achieved by consistency of bringing in and developing talented players that fit your approach over all and CONSISTENCY of effort in executing that approach on BOTH ends of the court approach.

So for those worried about "continity" I would ask of our top 11 guys on this roster who exactly do you not want to see playing more than cameo minutes next season? Brown would be everyone first pick for that but after that who, High, Lubin, JWit, Jwash, Seth, Ian Jackson, Drake Powell, Cadeau, Tyson, only guy left is RJ?

I will speak to parts of your questions, as it has various points, and I'll try to be concise with my feelings on continuity. Mainly I think there is an ocean of space between an "iron 5" approach and playing 10/11 guys 10 minutes plus per game.

I do not see last years' usage as anywhere near an "iron 5", there was a 8 man rotation. I think 8/ maybe 9 is very manageable, and what is ideal in my opinion. I also think Hubert is big on rotation guys earning those minutes, not just getting game time to "stay sharp", or to give prolonged "rests" for guys who have separated in earning the lion's share of minutes. When bench players struggle to meet expectations, or starters excel that tilts the bench minutes down. If starters struggle, or bench guys perform well, bench minutes grow.

One reason I think Hubert leans toward that style is he has played in both roles. A big minute featured guy, and a spot bench player, who was expected to "stay ready" in practice for when he was called upon as the season shakes out. Earned, not given game minutes is a big part of his belief system I believe, formed from his own experience in both roles. He mentions it often in post game interviews.

With this years roster makeup there should be some real battles to earn minute distribution. I agree, opportunities are there for a large number to compete for PT. I'm guessing the practices and early season games will sort that out through competition and he will have a core 8/9 by mid season. The others are not forgotten, as he often says "stay ready, your number will be called. Injuries, foul trouble, slumps, practice growth, matchups. Stay ready, but finding 10 per game for 11 guys is tough to do for game continuity for me.

Not impossible, Kentucky tried it last year, and I was not a fan. They looked disjointed at times with groups on the floor, led to inconsistency in my opinion. Also some of the top kids I thought were muzzled a bit from not being on the court more. Just hard to play that many that much in my opinion. Just as it is hard to only play an "iron 5". I don't think either will be used by Hubert this year.

 

[NathanFielder]

Not impossible, Kentucky tried it last year, and I was not a fan. They looked disjointed at times with groups on the floor, led to inconsistency in my opinion. Also some of the top kids I thought were muzzled a bit from not being on the court more. Just hard to play that many that much in my opinion. Just as it is hard to only play an "iron 5". I don't think either will be used by Hubert this year.

There's also only 40 minutes in college basketball. The math says you can have 252 5-man lineup combinations with 10 players. Obviously a bit ridiculous since you're not going to play 5 big guys, but that's just a number for reference.

If this were the NBA and you played 48 minutes, 82 times per season, then yes... You better play a lot of dudes. And in the NBA it organically happens because superstars rest for 15 games a year too. That isn't the case in college basketball unless you want that to be the case. I don't think most college coaches are equipped to handle all of those potential combinations and help the team.

I think it would've been interesting if UNC had to travel to the West Coast and play 2 games in like 48 hours while traveling cross-country. Would you entertain resting Jalen Washington and treating it like the second leg of a back-to-back?

And maybe it's just me, but I hope 2 of Washington, Withers, Lubin, or High separate themselves pretty significantly from the other 2 where it's clear and obvious they should be getting significantly more minutes. I think it's honestly a bad sign for this team if we don't see some separation from Cadeau, RJ, Tyson, and 2 bigs (maybe add Jackson in there). Unless we're talking about gigantic leaps from Trimble and High... then I think it's a sign that Cadeau and RJ in particular didn't regress back towards the bench players.

I still think most of this stuff will figure itself out. IIRC last year, UNC was pretty healthy. I'm just guessing that won't be the. case this year because injuries can be random. Then dudes are going to play well and play poorly throughout the season. Then there maybe other drama too. Who knows. Hopefully this team will look like the S&P 500 over the longterm.

 

[DSouthr]

I will speak to parts of your questions, as it has various points, and I'll try to be concise with my feelings on continuity. Mainly I think there is an ocean of space between an "iron 5" approach and playing 10/11 guys 10 minutes plus per game.

I do not see last years' usage as anywhere near an "iron 5", there was a 8 man rotation. I think 8/ maybe 9 is very manageable, and what is ideal in my opinion. I also think Hubert is big on rotation guys earning those minutes, not just getting game time to "stay sharp", or to give prolonged "rests" for guys who have separated in earning the lion's share of minutes. When bench players struggle to meet expectations, or starters excel that tilts the bench minutes down. If starters struggle, or bench guys perform well, bench minutes grow.

One reason I think Hubert leans toward that style is he has played in both roles. A big minute featured guy, and a spot bench player, who was expected to "stay ready" in practice for when he was called upon as the season shakes out. Earned, not given game minutes is a big part of his belief system I believe, formed from his own experience in both roles. He mentions it often in post game interviews.

With this years roster makeup there should be some real battles to earn minute distribution. I agree, opportunities are there for a large number to compete for PT. I'm guessing the practices and early season games will sort that out through competition and he will have a core 8/9 by mid season. The others are not forgotten, as he often says "stay ready, your number will be called. Injuries, foul trouble, slumps, practice growth, matchups. Stay ready, but finding 10 per game for 11 guys is tough to do for game continuity for me.

Not impossible, Kentucky tried it last year, and I was not a fan. They looked disjointed at times with groups on the floor, led to inconsistency in my opinion. Also some of the top kids I thought were muzzled a bit from not being on the court more. Just hard to play that many that much in my opinion. Just as it is hard to only play an "iron 5". I don't think either will be used by Hubert this year.

Really solid reply, I very much appreciate that. So 11 guys 10mins min each is no go but 9 you can maybe see, cool, that means considering this roster that Brown gets at most a cameo appear in several games but nothing meaningful, I would agree, he is no where ready for minutes. But our 10th man would be High, now I have not seen enough to say I feel he should for sure get double digit minutes, I did see some indication that maybe he should in the camp scrimmages but that is a really weak indicator, I need to see a LOT more to really have a decent opinion. But I can actually see where his minutes could come from because I am not yet convinced that Jwit should be playing well over 20mins a game and as mush a JWash guy as I am, not exactly comfortable with him playing way over 20mins. Many may see that different but realize, doubt you will find anyone higher on JWash's potential than me. So you have to realize I am not going out of my way to diminish JWash, I feel like I am butted up against reality, my upper end for him would be about 22mins a game.

Now as for Ky trying some of this last season, respectfully, I want to stop you right there because KY had Calipari as their head coach, well at least he had the title of head coach and was way over paid for the title. I have absolutely ZERO respect for Calipari as a head coach, IMO he may be the most over hyped and worst head coach of any sport at any level... but he is one whale of a snake oil salesman. I think in time Kelvin will move closer to what I am talking about, Hurley does some of it but not to the extent I am talking. I am talking about a full 40mins of hell on BOTH ends of the court. You need talented depth to do that and it has to be your driving singular approach. It is the constant never relenting pressure that reduces players, that drains their confidence, it destroys the opponent, leaves them beaten mentally and physically.

Will Hubert do this, no, no way I expect it but with this team he darn well could and IMO darn well should.