Tuesday (2nd) Camp game...

[NathanFielder]

True, but that was the safe play - starting a highly experienced guy early on.

Correctly or not, many of us have felt that Hubert's too-easy reliance on Iron Man showed a preference for playing it safe over maximizing development.

There are some reasons why that may have been his preference previously but won't be this season:

Early in his HC career he may have felt his seat was a bit warm - meaning winning the current game took priority over developing for later in the year.​

​

Plus, a willingness to play a deep bench requires having confidence in the players. The Alabama game reminded us that confidence comes with a short leash for Hubert.​

From the little we've seen of Ian, Drake and Cade in the scrimmages, there's reason to think they may earn Hubert's confidence fairly quickly. Still some question marks among the bigs - although Zayden looks improved.

Nor would I expect Elliot or Seth to be consigned to the bench in close games this season.

How playing Paxson Wojcik was "the safe play" is something I don't understand. Paxson Wojcik isn't a starting-caliber player at UNC's level. How is it safe to start a player who isn't a starting-caliber player? Hell, he wasn't a rotation-caliber player. Starting Cadeau would've been significantly safer.

I'll get repetitive but if you think Puff, Dunn, Styles, Nickel, etc are really solid pieces and are players who contribute to winning, then fine they should've played more. I happen to think those guys aren't all that good and don't really contribute to winning. If you blame that on the fact that they didn't play enough at UNC... I don't know about that. If it feeds your argument, you can certainly use it though.

And also, enough with the development narrative.
- RJ Davis, a 5'11" 2-guard became an All American under Hubert. Unless that doesn't count since he was on the bench under Roy. Clearly all the developing must have happened under Roy since he was on the bench.
- Leaky Black was one of the worst players in the country under Roy, then got better at a meaningful basketball skill and became less awful offensively under Hubert. And then played in the freaking NBA as a rookie.
- Idk... Seth looked like he developed some as a sophomore. And I'm not even a big Seth fan, lol.

If you want development with his bench, I guess that's fine (again assuming you think the previous bench players had game). But it's a fallacy that players haven't been developed under Hubert.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

How playing Paxson Wojcik was "the safe play" is something I don't understand.

Apparently.

Apologies for sounding snarky, but it sure seems like you don't want to even try to understand. I mean I could be wrong, but the point seems pretty straightforward.

 

[NathanFielder]

Apparently.

Apologies for sounding snarky, but it sure seems like you don't want to even try to understand. I mean I could be wrong, but the point seems pretty straightforward.

I probably came off as a d-bag. Apologies if that's the case.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I probably came off as a d-bag. Apologies if that's the case.

Thanks. All's good.

 

[DSouthr]

True, but that was the safe play - starting a highly experienced guy early on.

Correctly or not, many of us have felt that Hubert's too-easy reliance on Iron Man showed a preference for playing it safe over maximizing development.

There are some reasons why that may have been his preference previously but won't be this season:

Early in his HC career he may have felt his seat was a bit warm - meaning winning the current game took priority over developing for later in the year.​

​

Plus, a willingness to play a deep bench requires having confidence in the players. The Alabama game reminded us that confidence comes with a short leash for Hubert.​

From the little we've seen of Ian, Drake and Cade in the scrimmages, there's reason to think they may earn Hubert's confidence fairly quickly. Still some question marks among the bigs - although Zayden looks improved.

Nor would I expect Elliot or Seth to be consigned to the bench in close games this season.

The narrative that Hubert was or is inclined to play the Iron 5 look, I would challenge that frankly. His first season as head coach, you have to look at how that season unfolded. Truth is Hubert seemed locked in on an 8 man rotation. But, Puff stayed hurt, Garcia decided to extend his family visit (I am being nice saying that) and Ant was ruled out. So we went from an 8 man rotation to 5 really quick. 8 man rotation is pretty much what most coaches look for, very few coaches will hinge their season on their #9 or 10 guy.

His next season, I felt Hubert simply showed his lack of experience, seemed to feel he had such great chemistry with the 4 returners that had played so well in the last NCAAT that add a highly rated big man that could jump shoot some and simply run it back. Fans seemed to agree before that season began, even the players seemed to play like it was going to be easy and as we saw, it wasn't. I* have beat Hubert up enough over that disaster of a season however. Last season was a stark improvement, did a fantastic job of filling needs from the portal with our last team, that last game vs bama, didn't like the coaching decisions but we have beaten that game to death and it has nothing to do with the Iron 5 question.

I feel like it was more just the situations that presented themselves at the time that Hubert had to make his way thru more than his being inclined to use a really short bench. My larger concern is that he does seem to let his more top level players play more minutes than I feel they should. Looking at the coming season, RJ is the only guy that I think Hubert will want to play well over 30mins a game, situation may dictate Jalen playing huge minutes and that does concern me, just not sure he is ready for that kind of season long usage, at this point all we can do is wait and see how it develops.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

The narrative that Hubert was or is inclined to play the Iron 5 look, I would challenge that frankly. His first season as head coach, you have to look at how that season unfolded. Truth is Hubert seemed locked in on an 8 man rotation. But, Puff stayed hurt, Garcia decided to extend his family visit (I am being nice saying that) and Ant was ruled out. So we went from an 8 man rotation to 5 really quick. 8 man rotation is pretty much what most coaches look for, very few coaches will hinge their season on their #9 or 10 guy.

His next season, I felt Hubert simply showed his lack of experience, seemed to feel he had such great chemistry with the 4 returners that had played so well in the last NCAAT that add a highly rated big man that could jump shoot some and simply run it back. Fans seemed to agree before that season began, even the players seemed to play like it was going to be easy and as we saw, it wasn't. I* have beat Hubert up enough over that disaster of a season however. Last season was a stark improvement, did a fantastic job of filling needs from the portal with our last team, that last game vs bama, didn't like the coaching decisions but we have beaten that game to death and it has nothing to do with the Iron 5 question.

I feel like it was more just the situations that presented themselves at the time that Hubert had to make his way thru more than his being inclined to use a really short bench. My larger concern is that he does seem to let his more top level players play more minutes than I feel they should. Looking at the coming season, RJ is the only guy that I think Hubert will want to play well over 30mins a game, situation may dictate Jalen playing huge minutes and that does concern me, just not sure he is ready for that kind of season long usage, at this point all we can do is wait and see how it develops.

The question I've raised previously is whether Iron Man is Hubert's preference or merely situational.

You are correct that there were "reasons" in his first 2 seasons (whether you agree that they were good reasons is another matter). But there weren't reasons last season, imo. So I and many others were hoping to see a big departure from Iron Man. Instead we got a small departure from Iron Man. Very small.

2023 - 7 guys with double digit minutes; 5 guys playing over 30 mpg
2024 - 7 guys with double digit minutes; 4 guys playing over 30 mpg

And, frankly, the only reason we didn't have 5 guys playing over 30 mpg last season was that Cadeau didn't live up to the hype.

This will be Hubert's 2nd season in a row with a full boat of quality players that he personally fitted together. If he doesn't move further away from Iron Man this season, I'll be ready to accept that that's his preference.

Iron Man isn't necessarily bad. So if that's what Hubert wants, and he wins with it, I think we'll all survive.

 

[dtodd4475]

I get the idea of having a number to discuss "iron 5" minutes. The 30 minute mark seems like a bad one to choose for me though. If you play 30 minutes, you rested a fourth of the game. A full quarter of bench time, without foul issues or injury is far from "iron" minutes in my opinion, for the top players. None of the top teams sit thier best over a quarter of the game.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I get the idea of having a number to discuss "iron 5" minutes. The 30 minute mark seems like a bad one to choose for me though. If you play 30 minutes, you rested a fourth of the game. A full quarter of bench time, without foul issues or injury is far from "iron" minutes in my opinion, for the top players. None of the top teams sit thier best over a quarter of the game.

There's nothing magical about 30 minutes. Or even double-digit minutes. But if you are going to discuss such things it makes sense to have touchstones - and those seem as good as any.

My sense is that RJ tends to run out of gas after playing long minutes in a long season. He still gives his all, because he's a tough competitor, but his all isn't his best when the tank is running dry.

Just using RJ as an example. The idea is that this is true for all players, but each player's "number" is unique to him and his training regimen. Some guys thrive on 37 mpg. Other's struggle at 28 or even less. What was Armando's number? What was Washington's? what was Elliot's? Some guys need to be pushed to a higher number (development) while some should be reined back a bit.

If you have 5 or 6 guys who thrive as Iron Men and only chump change on the bench then, sure, play Iron Man.

 

[dtodd4475]

There's nothing magical about 30 minutes. Or even double-digit minutes. But if you are going to discuss such things it makes sense to have touchstones - and those seem as good as any.

My sense is that RJ tends to run out of gas after playing long minutes in a long season. He still gives his all, because he's a tough competitor, but his all isn't his best when the tank is running dry.

Just using RJ as an example. The idea is that this is true for all players, but each player's "number" is unique to him and his training regimen. Some guys thrive on 37 mpg. Other's struggle at 28 or even less. What was Armando's number? What was Washington's? what was Elliot's? Some guys need to be pushed to a higher number (development) while some should be reined back a bit.

If you have 5 or 6 guys who thrive as Iron Men and only chump change on the bench then, sure, play Iron Man.

I get that, and agree. I think Hubert is very aware with his college and pro playing days (especially his "blood in the garden days" with the Knicks under Riley) of fatigue. I think he is big on earned time, and conditioning. RJ as an example, I think he is 100% in the able to play big minutes with little to no drop off as a 5th year guy.

I get the 30 touchstone, but for established, clear best position guys it's as arbitrary as any. If it is a competitive game, sitting one entire quarter is a ton in my opinion for your stars. I think the subs have to be good enough to push the 1st squad at each position to earn more than "get a blow minutes" for Hubert, When the games are tight in conference and tourney time. Stay ready, work hard, but floor time is earned not given, other than short "blows".

RJ may be the only sure thing as heads and shoulders above this year, I hope not, I hope others get to that, "we need them on the court" level, EC should be, hopefully. Should be great competition to see who earns those minutes, and how the rotation plays itself out.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I get that, and agree. I think Hubert is very aware with his college and pro playing days (especially his "blood in the garden days with the Knicks under Riley) of fatigue. I think he is big on earned time, and conditioning. RJ as an example, I think he is 100% in the able to play big minutes with little to no drop off as a 5th year guy.

I get the 30 touchstone, but for established, clear best position guys it's as arbitrary as any. If it is a competitive game, sitting one entire quarter is a ton in my opinion for your stars. I think the subs have to be good enough to push the 1st squad at each position to earn more than "get a blow minutes" for Hubert, When the games are tight in non conference and tourney time. Stay ready, work hard, but floor time is earned not given, other than short "blows".

RJ may be the only sure thing as heads and shoulders above this year, I hope not, I hope others get to that, "we need them on the court" level, EC should be, hopefully. Should be great competition to see who earns those minutes, and how the rotation plays itself out.

Here are the guys on our 2024-25 team who I think CAN play long minutes. That's not to say they will all play well as 35-mpg iron men - because we haven't seen all of them do that in Carolina blue - but they look like they can handle the minutes, if they get them.

That's 6 guys.

The good news is that Ian and Drake look ready to go, everybody is saying Washington is, too, and High looked good in the scrimmages. With that kind of bench, my hope is that Hubert doesn't feel the need to go Iron Man.

Player	MPG Last Season - Where
RJ Davis	34.8 - UNC
Cade Tyson	31.6 - Belmont
Ven-Allen Lubin	28.2 - Vanderbilt
Jae'Lyn Withers	12.4 - UNC (but 25.0 - Louisville previous year)
Elliot Cadeau	23.8 - UNC
Seth Trimble	17.1 - UNC

 

[dtodd4475]

Here are the guys on our 2024-25 team who I think CAN play long minutes. That's not to say they will all play well as 35-mpg iron men - because we haven't seen all of them do that in Carolina blue - but they look like they can handle the minutes, if they get them.

That's 6 guys.

The good news is that Ian and Drake look ready to go, everybody is saying Washington is, too, and High looked good in the scrimmages. With that kind of bench, my hope is that Hubert doesn't feel the need to go Iron Man.

Player	MPG Last Season - Where
RJ Davis	34.8 - UNC
Cade Tyson	31.6 - Belmont
Ven-Allen Lubin	28.2 - Vanderbilt
Jae'Lyn Withers	12.4 - UNC (but 25.0 - Louisville previous year)
Elliot Cadeau	23.8 - UNC
Seth Trimble	17.1 - UNC

It may be more cemantics for me with term "iron man minutes". I do not think Hubert did that last year. 30 to 32 type minutes is normal to me if you are a clear 1 at a position, RJ only one near 35. Mando, Cormac, and Harrison were clearly seperated from thier backups at thier positions. Most all good teams have multiple guys in the 30+ range. UNC was one of them.

The bench may be capable with conditioning, but do they earn near 20 minutes at this level with performance as it relates to who they are competing with for floor time on a UNC roster? If they can, Hubert will play them. As always I think Hubert will let a solid 8 to 9 man rotation work it's way out by merit, meaning around 8 to 10 or above nightly, by mid season at the latest.

Tyson is way up in competition, Ian/Drake freshman, Lubin up in roster competition, Jalen never more than 10-12 at this level, oft injured, Withers inconsistent, minutes were there for him to earn early last year as well, did not grab them, Seth got good minutes last year, dang near split with Cadeau. Go out and separate yourself fellas, earn the court time. EC and RJ, I think certainly will, the others are vying for extended minutes, if nobody steps forward those positions might indeed be filled by committee? I'm hoping some guys lay claim to "we want him on the court" for what he brings, 30 minute type guys.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

The bench may be capable with conditioning, but do they earn near 20 minutes at this level with performance as it relates to who they are competing with for floor time on a UNC roster? If they can, Hubert will play them.

Will he?

This is what I hope to learn this season.

 

[NathanFielder]

Here are the guys on our 2024-25 team who I think CAN play long minutes. That's not to say they will all play well as 35-mpg iron men - because we haven't seen all of them do that in Carolina blue - but they look like they can handle the minutes, if they get them.

That's 6 guys.

The good news is that Ian and Drake look ready to go, everybody is saying Washington is, too, and High looked good in the scrimmages. With that kind of bench, my hope is that Hubert doesn't feel the need to go Iron Man.

Player	MPG Last Season - Where
RJ Davis	34.8 - UNC
Cade Tyson	31.6 - Belmont
Ven-Allen Lubin	28.2 - Vanderbilt
Jae'Lyn Withers	12.4 - UNC (but 25.0 - Louisville previous year)
Elliot Cadeau	23.8 - UNC
Seth Trimble	17.1 - UNC

It's also the offseason where every player looks great and every team is undefeated in the offseason.

But this also isn't as simple as "play everyone." Maybe at the beginning of the season, you can experiment more. But we're going to find out certain things that limit a player's value with certain lineups. If Seth, Jackson, and Powell are minus shooters, they probably shouldn't play with certain lineup combinations, which will limit their potential playing time.

The bench will naturally have to contribute more unless Jalen Washington quadruples his minutes per game from last year. Assuming he doesn't, there will be a big-man rotation that sees much more bench usage.

I'm much more worried about can Elliot Cadeau make a 3? Can Washington hold up physically? Those are much bigger concerns than whether or not a bench player plays 13 minutes or 17 minutes.

I'm more concerned how static Hubert's half court offense will be then how many minutes Seth Trimble gets.

 

[Bubspub88]

Just for argument's sake:

Davis 32 minutes
Cadeau 25 minutes
Van Lubin 25 minutes
Tyson 23 minutes
Trimble 20 minutes
Withers 20 minutes
Washington 15 minutes
High 10 minutes


That is 170 minutes, leaving 30 split between Jackson and Powell.

I think there is a LOT of pressure on Hubert this season. If he winds up playing iron man again it is gonna be tough to continue to pull in highly ranked recruits and transfers. That roster does allow him to play a lot of different styles but is it harder to do that effectively than to focus on playing only one way?

 

[gary-7]

Just for argument's sake:

Davis 32 minutes
Cadeau 25 minutes
Van Lubin 25 minutes
Tyson 23 minutes
Trimble 20 minutes
Withers 20 minutes
Washington 15 minutes
High 10 minutes


That is 170 minutes, leaving 30 split between Jackson and Powell.

I think there is a LOT of pressure on Hubert this season. If he winds up playing iron man again it is gonna be tough to continue to pull in highly ranked recruits and transfers. That roster does allow him to play a lot of different styles but is it harder to do that effectively than to focus on playing only one way?

Despite the one glaring disconnect in that list, the point that there should be minutes available for out top-10 guys is valid.

 

[2DDIMOND]

Just for argument's sake:

Davis 32 minutes
Cadeau 25 minutes
Van Lubin 25 minutes
Tyson 23 minutes
Trimble 20 minutes
Withers 20 minutes
Washington 15 minutes
High 10 minutes


That is 170 minutes, leaving 30 split between Jackson and Powell.

I think there is a LOT of pressure on Hubert this season. If he winds up playing iron man again it is gonna be tough to continue to pull in highly ranked recruits and transfers. That roster does allow him to play a lot of different styles but is it harder to do that effectively than to focus on playing only one way?

I’ll try this game

Cadeau -31
Davis - 30
Lubin - 21
Tyson - 21
Washington- 20
Jackson - 19
Trimble - 18
Withers - 17
Powell - 12
High - 11

 

[dtodd4475]

10 guys averaging 10 minutes or up. I don't see that happening.

 

[gary-7]

10 guys averaging 10 minutes or up. I don't see that happening.

Why?

 

[Kool1234567]

I’ll try this game

Cadeau -31
Davis - 30
Lubin - 21
Tyson - 21
Washington- 20
Jackson - 19
Trimble - 18
Withers - 17
Powell - 12
High - 11

If it works out like this it means we are back to running teams out the gym again….Which is fine by me…

 

[DSouthr]

The question I've raised previously is whether Iron Man is Hubert's preference or merely situational.

You are correct that there were "reasons" in his first 2 seasons (whether you agree that they were good reasons is another matter). But there weren't reasons last season, imo. So I and many others were hoping to see a big departure from Iron Man. Instead we got a small departure from Iron Man. Very small.

2023 - 7 guys with double digit minutes; 5 guys playing over 30 mpg
2024 - 7 guys with double digit minutes; 4 guys playing over 30 mpg

And, frankly, the only reason we didn't have 5 guys playing over 30 mpg last season was that Cadeau didn't live up to the hype.

This will be Hubert's 2nd season in a row with a full boat of quality players that he personally fitted together. If he doesn't move further away from Iron Man this season, I'll be ready to accept that that's his preference.

Iron Man isn't necessarily bad. So if that's what Hubert wants, and he wins with it, I think we'll all survive.

When I consider this Iron 5 question and the concern that maybe we played our bench less than we maybe should have, I look more at individual players and ask if those on the bench should have been given more minutes. I think crystal clear to me that Jalen should have got more minutes and I do not see any justifiable explanation for that! OTHER than Jalen the case is harder to make. Hubert did give JWit EVERY chance to play well even at times when he looked to me like a walking turn over waiting to happen. Yes JWit "only" averaged less than 13mins a game, that lowered average did not reflect his usage later season. Paxon was given early, even started every chance to succeed and frankly just didn't. Seth was what, around 18mins a game and maybe a few more a game but many more minutes would have been there had he jump shot better. I do wish we had prepared Seth more as the primary PG back up. Yeah, I did and do feel RJ and Bacot may have played to many minutes considering that Seth and JWash backed those positions up. It was some what of a 8 man rotation and that is what most coaches look for.

 

[DSouthr]

I’ll try this game

Cadeau -31
Davis - 30
Lubin - 21
Tyson - 21
Washington- 20
Jackson - 19
Trimble - 18
Withers - 17
Powell - 12
High - 11

While I do like your minute allocation I do worry about not having our 1 guy with good length on the bench for half the game. How ever when I consider the player, Jalen, I would agree that he should play around 20-25mins a game, not comfortable having to play him much more than that for now. We really needed a center from this portal and we ended up with a 4 that can play "some" 5? I hope that is enough...

Can we get 11 solid minutes from High, have to see a lot more to be convinced of that but I would love to be assured of that! Can't help but snicker to see RJ getting a minute less than Cadeau, with Hubert as our coach? There is not a part of me that really thinks Hubert will play RJ for less minutes than he does Cadeau no matter what, not saying I agree but we have watched Hubert head coaching decisions for 3 seasons now, I think we know better by now.

 

[dtodd4475]

Why?

I think it is very hard to get continuity playing 10 guys over 10 minutes each. I think Hubert will settle on a hard 8, soft 9 after early season competition for those spots. I also think RJ and Cadeau will get big minutes, that leaves an awful lot of short minute spurts for others, that can be tough for rhythm.

Personally I hope a couple other guys emerge by separating theirself from the pack. Also seeing what court combinations compliment each others games the most will be interesting, with spacing, dee, boards, etc.