I can agree with that to a point. Why can’t we get those NBA dudes now, when we were a revolving door for them for over 40 years?
UNC vs Oklahoma in Charlotte game thread on: Wednesday 20 December 2023
- Thread starter IDUNK4HEELS
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Going to be hard to play in the league at 6-1 (don't think he's taller than that) until he can shoot. Even then if he's a total defensive sieve may still be hard. Definitely agree he has a ways to go. I don't think he'd get drafted if he came out this year. Passing and dribbling are fantastic though; if he refines a bit he'll at minimum be a very good college player.
Cadeau, Jackson, and Powell if they all make it here is a good start.
We had Kessler, Sharpe, Love, Davis in the same class. That was a great class, the best guys just didn't stay here long. Davis is finally turning it on this year, but we have to keep repeating these top end classes every year. Can't do Styles/Dunn, or probably even Trimble/Washington (we'll see on the latter group) if you want to be consistently elite.
It’s the difference. I know everyone has this ideology that the Carolina Way means so much. Maybe it means something. All I know is the Carolina Way sucked when Larry Drew II and Will Graves were starters. It sucked when Cole Anthony got hurt and Leaky Black became a primary ballhandler.
The Carolina Way looks damn good when Felton, McCants, May, Williams, Lawson, Ellington, Hansbrough, etc are running it.
Some people say we have 2 pros coming in next year. A lot of people said Cadeau would be OAD. We’ll see.
But that’s the difference. Tell me any good Roy team that didn’t have a 1st round pick at UNC.
Quite a few Heels fans said Trimble, Styles, and Leaky would be gone for the NBA after ~2 years. Good thing is these guys coming in actually have the rankings to back it up.
I mean he fouled two guys on threes. This after totally dropping two back breaking rebounds against UK, and making a couple other boneheaded plays. Trimble certainly deserves to play over him, and seems like today Hubert decided to give High more run. Not that High did much with it unfortunately, but worth a look.
Go back to Dean as far as the mid 60’s, the M&M boys started the tradition with Dean. Unstoppable!
I think high, either has the smallest hands in the world, or the worlds worst case of neuropathy in them. Maybe the game will slow down for him. I do realize he’s young but dang it man catch the ball.
Bacot was terrible against UK as well.
He gave up 6 points in the end by not grabbing simple rebounds.
We won tonight.
Quite a few Heels fans compared John Henson to Kevin Durant. No offense to Henson. He had a great career here but you get my point, lol.
Hopefully we bring in some fire power. This season is more of a transitional year to me. An important one for Hubert to make his stamp on the program. And if you’re going to have a transitional year, I like building it around offense and shooting.
We don’t have high level talent and that’s the biggest difference between this team vs Roy’s contending teams.
Some will say the biggest difference is the head coach. I think it’s the talent.
Talking about a guy who should be in high school. Jarin Stevenson looking downright awful against Arizona.
Yes, having great and talented players matter. Even back in the 60s apparently!
Withers also nearly threw the ball away twice against the press in hie first minute of playing time.
Yes I agree. Important thing for Hubert is for this season to be good enough to keep the momentum rolling in recruiting. If we can be a top 3-4 seed and Sweet 16 or more, he'll maintain the credibility to likely keep landing good recruits/transfers. Depending on what happens next year has the potential to be a #1 seed type team.
Those kids got a helluva win tonight! Congratulations, boys!
They sure did and we really needed it. GDTBATH
Do you really need NBA talent to win National Championships? RJ may not be an NBA draft pick, but for a college player, there is nobody else id rather have. NBA draft picks doesnt translate to college skill level. NBA draft is mainly on potential. I think this UNC team has a great balance of whats needed to win a National title. We are still trying to figure out a few things as far as bench minutes and fixing our rebounding and turnovers, but other than that I think this team is getting better every game and is easily a top 10 team.
Either that or you have to get the most from your team. This team is doing neither right now.
How do you figure NBA draft picks help teams win? Has it helped Kentucky? Kentucky has 1 national title under Calipari and how many NBA draft picks? We have had more success with less. NBA draft picks are based on potential, not how you play in college. Example, Aaron Bradshaw is a projected top 5 pick. Is he better than RJ Davis or any of our starters stat-wise? No. He's being drafted on potential.
UNC has a great group of good COLLEGE players. None will probably be in the NBA but that doesnt mean they are not good college players.
And how do you figure we arent doing either right now? We are a top-10 team with two top-10 wins already.
Roy isn't Hubert. I think probably 100% of the people on this board think Roy is a better coach than Hubert. Roy never got to a Final Four at UNC without having multiple 1st round picks on his roster. In truth, the only time we made a March run without a 1st round pick was the 2022 Final Four run. So maybe Hubert bucks the trend.
History shows though. At UNC, we need to get NBA caliber players to get to Final Fours.
True. That is the case with Roy, however, even with Roy, our NBA draft picks have never turned out to be good NBA players. Surprisingly, we have only had a handful of NBA draft picks that turned out decent, but none were stars. Coby White and Cole Anthony are probably the best players we have had since Vince Carter and that's crazy. Raymond Felton and Ty Lawson are others that come to mind. Lawson could have been a star in the NBA if he didnt get in trouble. Harrison Barnes isnt aggressive enough and very inconsistent with his scoring in the NBA.
So, yeah we have won with NBA draft picks, but none of those draft picks were stars for the most part.
At the end of the day, I dont compare college to NBA. If youre good enough in college, that should be all that matters. I would rather have National Championships than I would NBA draft picks.
You doing a lot of talking about the "Carolina Way", do have any idea of what the "Carolina Way" actually is because your words do not indicate that you do? Since when did "play hard, play smart, play together" begin to SUCK?
The point is having NBA caliber players. That's been the formula at UNC since 2000. Get really talented dudes that probably have a shot to be 1st round picks. Play our fast-paced tempo and the other things everyone associates with "The Carolina Way." Then you'll likely win a ton of games and be playing in meaningful March games.
You don't have to compare college to the NBA, but there's now a 20-year sample size of modern history. When we have elite-level NBA-caliber talent, we're pretty good. When we don't, we may have good years but we don't do anything memorable in March.
I understand all of that but sometimes you have great players who just wont get drafted because of size.. RJ Davis is a prime example. If he was 6'3 and putting up these same numbers, hes a top 10 NBA draft pick.
If Armando asserted himself more and had a higher motor, and shot the 3 ball consistently, he would also be a top 10 pick.
None of those things doesn't mean they aren't great college players though.
I am a fan of college basketball, I am not a fan of the NBA at all. It is nice to see a former UNC players do well after he leaves UNC but I am strictly about how a kid plays while he is at UNC. We don't need NBA players, we need great college players that play great college ball for UNC.
I never said they're not great college players. Maybe they lead us to glory this season. I'll be on board if they do.
But the other poster asked why UNC basketball looks less than it did maybe 5-10 years ago. The answer isn't all that complicated. We had more talented players in the 2000's and 2010's. It didn't mean all of those years ended with a ring. But it gave us a better shot at it consistently.
"play hard, play smart, play together" is something every successful system is predicated on. It isn't UNC specific.
I don't really care what they do in the NBA. Once guys get to the NBA, I look at it through an NBA lens and not a UNC lens. But the evidence is pretty clear. When we're really good, we have multiple dudes who can play in the NBA. I have yet to see a UNC team post-2000 that can compete for National Championships without NBA caliber talent apart from March 2022 really. That doesn't mean they need to be NBA All-Stars, but they need to have that kind of ability. Or at least that's what history has shown.
So you tell me, why hasn't duke and Ky pretty much split the national titles since 2005, when the 1 & D stuff was put in place? Those 2 teams have been LOADED with future NBA players EVERY SINGLE SEASON and yet since 2005 they have how many nattys between them?
Hey, guess what, those great 5 star talents, all those multiple top 10 in the country, have been fools gold more often than title winners. It is rare now days that a 5 star kid ever plays a soph season, they go on to play their best ball at the next level and all the college program got was the freshman version of that player. I want players that want to be at UNC, that want to play ball for UNC, that will wait to see what their future holds when it gets there, we all want the occasional 5 star, we don't want a team of freshmen while our upper classmen waste away on the bench. It isn't the most talented player that wins, it is the best player that does that!
I don’t think the player that you want exists unfortunately. And I do believe that’s part of his point too. They don’t stay so we need the best talent possible to win. Those days are over. Not gonna get them to stay for three or four years like Roy use to do.
I hate it with a passion but it’s totally diff now. I agree with the Ken, and duk recruiting and how it’s not about the battle for the top guys but you can’t argue the facts of our championship teams have had those caliber of guys on the roster.
I can't believe it's now somewhat controversial to say we need teams that have a couple of 1st round talents to get back to the level that we were in the 2000's and a good part of the 2010's. lol. Whether you develop those pros from a lower ranking, or they were studs to begin with, you need a couple of them.
2023 - UConn had Jordan Hawkins and Andre Jackson who were NBA draft picks. And Donovan Clingin is probably a 1st round pick whenever he goes pro.
2022 - Kansas had Christian Bruan and Ochai Agbaji who were 1st round NBA draft picks
2020 - Baylor had Davion Mitchell drafted in the 1st round
2019 - Virginia had DeAndre Hunter drafted in the 1st round
2018 - Villanova had Jalen Brunson, Mikhal Bridges, Donte DiVincenzo who I think were all 1st round picks
2017 - UNC had Justin Jackson and Tony Bradley as 1st round picks
I don't know why you're putting words in my mouth. I never said "loaded" nor did I ever insinuate that you need your entire starting 5 to be NBA talent. But in recent history, UNC has needed a few dudes who were 1st round-caliber talents.
It's great to hear what you want out of your ideal college program. But it's also completely irrelevant. The recent history shows that you need some NBA talent. If you're void of that, you're going to have a hard time winning into April.
We've been lucky to have top 25 recruits stay for 3 years in the past. That's probably been the biggest difference between UNC and Duke/Kentucky. Now is that realistic in today's game? I don't know.
But history has shown that you need a certain level of talent to win in April. And I don't know why that's remotely controversial to you, lol.
To be fair, UK would likely have won the 2015 with an undefeated season if not for a poor coaching decision by Calipari. If he gave Ulis/Booker all the backcourt minutes in the Final Four instead of trying to placate the Harrison twins, they probably go all the way.
But that is the thing about the NCAA tournament, it's one loss and you're out. Plenty of super talented teams come up short.
So you don't think this team is capable of winning in the post season because we don't have a certain number of NBA first rounders on this team? I think we will have to re-visit this in march and see if this team is capable of going deep without any first rounders in the next NBA draft.
You obviously can make a run in the NCAA tournament without NBA talent. The other poster said what’s the difference between the UNC of today and the elite UNC teams? I responded with Roy’s great teams had significantly more NBA caliber players on their team.
Roy never did anything without serious NBA talent on his rosters. We’ll see with Hubert. But if people think Hubert is a lesser coach, I would assume he isn’t the coach to make up for a talent deficiency.
But the recent evidence has been pretty clear. If you want to win a National Championship, you need NBA caliber talent on your roster.
And I bet on UNC to win the National Championship before the season started at 50-1. It was more of a number play because I thought they should be closer to 30-1 so I wanted to beat the market. So I’m intrigued that they can do some damage in March.
Although, winning a National Championship? My wallet would love it. But right now, I think they lack elite level talent.
My response was to the other poster comparing this UNC team to the elite UNC teams. IMO, number 1 is the difference in elite talent.
And yet Bacot is a 5th year guy for us, RJ is in his 4th year with us? They stayed, Hansbourgh stayed all 4 with us, Joel Berry stayed 4yrs for us, Marcus stayed, Theo stayed, ect. Those guys may not have been or will be big time NBA players but they not only stayed but lead us to great seasons.
Many, I would say most of the big time 5 star guys do leave after only their freshman season and many times even after not having a great freshman season, Nas Little anyone? It strikes me funny that in a reply to a post I made, the retort about Ky not winning it all the season they brought multiple 5 stars off the bench was they likely would have won it all had Kalipari not stuck so heavy with the twins. Great example of catering to his 5 star guys cost Ky a natty. Yes, 5 stars mostly do bring huge talent but far to often they as well bring fragile entitled attitudes as well as having part of their attention on the team they are now on and part of where they want to go, the NBA. It is important to them to be featured, it is important for them to make sure that NBA resume looks great more so than how their team plays. Many folks were really pissed that Cadeau didn't start for us from day 1, I was surprised but by no means pissed. Looking back now, I think it was a great move from Hubert to instill that you have to earn what you get. It showed that Cadeau himself is a kid with that mindset I look for wrapped in 5 star talent. So now he is struggling a little bit but he has already learned, work thru it and good things will come.
Of course we all want as great a talent level as we can get, that should go without saying but what we don't need is the requirement to alter your program to cater to the big time talented freshmen. Some how we dodged a bullet missing on a 5 star in Stevenson, glad we did because there was attitude there, missed GG, did USC really win by stealing him from us? How much are we missing Wilcher right now LOL. Can you just imagine Hubert having to try to fit Wilcher in and get him starter minutes? And why did we see him transfer his commitment, because he wanted big minutes as our PG? Yeah, just what we needed, another 2 guard that wants to be a PG but it was OK because he was a 5 star when he committed to us and considered to be NBA level? He fell in the rankings AFTER he committed to us yet still felt he could dictate what position he could play for us?
Don't get this twisted, in no way am i saying we should not recruit 5 star talents, what I am saying is that we shouldn't want a guy JUST BECAUSE HE IS A 5 STAR, IT HAS TO BE THE RIGHT KID FIRST, he needs to be coachable, he needs to be able to fit in with his mates, he needs his focus to be on being a UNC player and allow his NBA dreams to be put on hold until they can be realized by his play and not his entitlement.
If Hubert is able to get NBA talent to stay at the same school for 3+ years, that will likely mean we win a ton of games and meaningful ones in March and April. I'll remain skeptical that that's a reality in today's era, but that would be great if he can execute that.
lol I had to go back and read what I even wrote to reply. If you think that Bacot and RJ are in the same boat of nba talent that Roy got to stay four multiple years then we have nothing to discuss. And most all those other guys you mentioned won championships here. I too care more about what they give us at UNC more than the league. It takes more talent than what we have is what I’m afraid of. We’ve had these few guys here a long time and they are good compared to what we’ve been able to get. I’m hopeful in Hubert’s recruiting for sure though.
