Very quick stuff (uk game)...

[Bubspub88]

Last I heard there's a first-year HC who came from an Assistant's chair doing pretty amazing things at Arizona right about now.

Doesn't that Az coach have a VERY experienced assistant beside him? I was nervous when they announced the change in schedule. UNC had a brand new coach and staff forced to create a new gameplan on the fly and then execute without true leadership on the court.

All things considered, that may have been the worst performance by a UNC team I can recall, even worse than the 30 point beatdown at HIS a few years back. I would rather lose by 50 playing the guys on the end of the bench who will actually give a damn.

Hubert (and Roy) said he shouldn't have to coach effort. While I agree with that I think you absolutely sit guys showing zero effort.

 

[DrJaaay]

I think you got a point there…..RJ wants to score at all cost and I think he is not coachable enough to change his mind. I think Love is coachable but see everybody else going for theirs and say “why the hell Im I the only one sacrificing.” You can see it on his face.

I agree King. I feel like Love is trying to play basketball the right way (along w Bacot) but RJ, Garcia and Manek want to be seen by the scouts, so they think every game is their chance to shine. Well, they were shining all right!!! I hope they realize that the scouts probably were not impressed by their showing.
We need Love to be the point guard and need Love to be the team leader. It would help a lot if Hubert would sit someone on the bench when they're not playing team ball.

 

[gary-7]

Doesn't that Az coach have a VERY experienced assistant beside him?

Yes, as does Hubert.

 

[notashelbyfan]

Last I heard there's a first-year HC who came from an Assistant's chair doing pretty amazing things at Arizona right about now.

So why are we struggling?

 

[gary-7]

So why are we struggling?

Perhaps you should read some of the good posts ITT.

 

[notashelbyfan]

Perhaps you should read some of the good posts ITT.

You got all the answers the HC can't figure It out! Sounds fair!

 

[gary-7]

You you got all the answers the the HC can't figure It out! Sounds fair!

Ah, and there it is. Your agenda is, as always, transparent, so I'm not gonna bother going back and forth with that sort of disingenuousness. There are several astute posts ITT from various folks. Read them, or not. Have a nice day.

 

[notashelbyfan]

Ah, and there it is. Your agenda is, as always, transparent, so I'm not gonna bother going back and forth with that sort of disingenuousness. There are several astute posts ITT from various folks. Read them, or not. Have a nice day.

Has nothing to do with agenda, we questioned Hubert, and you responded with there is a former assistant in Arizona doing good things, I ask "then what's Huberts problem?" You respond with read what people have posted on a message board. Someone else responds with doesn't the guy at Arizona have some experienced assistants beside him, and you said so does Hubert! So I ask again why is Hubert having issues?

Did Roy not recruit players there were coachable? Or is it maybe that Hubert is in over his head. The guy at Arizona was an assistant for 20 years he wasn't pulled out of a TV to be groomed as the next head coach!

Huberts first coaching experience ever was 9 years ago, this comparison is apples to oranges!
I have never in my life see a person that wanted all the attention as some kind of expert and then couldn't and won't explain their position when questioned.

 

[gary-7]

I have never in my life see a person that wanted all the attention as some kind of expert and then couldn't and won't explain their position when questioned.

I tried to be civil, but of course you can't let it go, so you can take your petty little attacks and shove them. Your "questions" have been asked and answered ITT, but then you don't really have any questions, you have an agenda, and if we had won Saturday you'd be nowhere to be found.

AMF.

 

[alabamaheel]

I tried to be civil, but of course you can't let it go, so you can take your petty little attacks and shove them. Your "questions" have been asked and answered ITT, but then you don't really have any questions, you have an agenda, and if we had won Saturday you'd be nowhere to be found.

AMF.

I’ll give you one thing Gary. You make me google more acronyms than anyone alive. You keep me on my toes cause I’m definitely ignorant in those regards.

 

[King Coach]

In Gary’s defense…..there are some on this board that’s connected to the coaching staff and some the players than most fans. Some of us are former players. So some of us have to be careful of saying too much.

Just to take pressure off of Gary…..I’m one of those people….so spend some time trying to figure that out. Have a blessed day.

 

[imajericho]

I agree King. I feel like Love is trying to play basketball the right way (along w Bacot) but RJ, Garcia and Manek want to be seen by the scouts, so they think every game is their chance to shine. Well, they were shining all right!!! I hope they realize that the scouts probably were not impressed by their showing.
We need Love to be the point guard and need Love to be the team leader. It would help a lot if Hubert would sit someone on the bench when they're not playing team ball.

A lot of people have said the Love almost purposely doesn't seem to want to pass to RJ Davis. So, I don't know. All I do know is that passing is weirdly nonexistent a lot in many scenarios when it should be a no brainer.

 

[King Coach]

I agree King. I feel like Love is trying to play basketball the right way (along w Bacot) but RJ, Garcia and Manek want to be seen by the scouts, so they think every game is their chance to shine. Well, they were shining all right!!! I hope they realize that the scouts probably were not impressed by their showing.
We need Love to be the point guard and need Love to be the team leader. It would help a lot if Hubert would sit someone on the bench when they're not playing team ball.

Amen brother

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

The players, the staff, all were very disappointing in that game. Now there is absolutely reason to critique the play in that game but this has shown that there are many that seem to have been biding their time to tear in to Hubert as our coach? It is one game and yes they wet the bed but Dean coached games where his team wet the bed, Roy did as well.

Fair enough.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I feel like Love is trying to play basketball the right way

If he is, then he's got a lower IQ than I was giving him credit for. To me it looks more like he doesn't care enough and is phoning it in at times.

RJ's head down, ballistic drives notwithstanding, I never get that feeling from him.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

RJ, Garcia and Manek want to be seen by the scouts, so they think every game is their chance to shine.

I don't get that feeling at all from Brady or RJ. Maybe a little from Dawson, but not at a level I consider to be a problem.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

We need Love to be the point guard and need Love to be the team leader.

I'm not smart enough to say whether Love needs to be the PG. Maybe so. But my eyes tell me he's no leader.

Maybe he can grow into that leadership role, but does he want to?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

There are many examples were players just quit on plays. Many of our players are guilty. Here is just one example on Caleb. I'm pointing out Caleb because he our best player and the leader of the team.

Watch this play at the 8:19 mark of the first half. No effort at all in trying to stop this guy who is 6-7 inches shorter. Ridiculous! RJ is just as bad.

View embedded media

Wow.

I rewound that a couple of times to rewatch it to try to figure out how Caleb managed to put himself in such an impotent position. I still don't understand what he was thinking.

On one of the rewinds I wound up at the 8:01 mark. I suggest checking that one out.

There are several things going on in that sequence.

1. All our guys but Leaky are backpedaling together to form a line even with the FT line. Nothing wrong with that, I guess, except that maybe that's too deep to go before engaging with your man. I'll leave that to our coaching gurus to comment on.

2. Leaky is the exception. While the other guys are making like a moving wall, Leaky is sticking to TyTy, and they are both in the corner, and then curling under the basket, while the rest are setting up. If Leaky doesn't do that, it's probably an easy basket.

3. Wheeler is bringing up the ball on his left, facing Caleb. When Wheeler gets even with the top of the circle, he cuts right. Caleb moves with him. But Caleb is so far apart that when a UK guy sets a lazy screen, Caleb has no choice but to go under the screen. With the result that Wheeler has an open jump shot with Caleb 8 feet away, and easily drills it.

 

[King Coach]

Wow.

I rewound that a couple of times to rewatch it to try to figure out how Caleb managed to put himself in such an impotent position. I still don't understand what he was thinking.

On one of the rewinds I wound up at the 8:01 mark. I suggest checking that one out.

There are several things going on in that sequence.

1. All our guys but Leaky are backpedaling together to form a line even with the FT line. Nothing wrong with that, I guess, except that maybe that's too deep to go before engaging with your man. I'll leave that to our coaching gurus to comment on.

2. Leaky is the exception. While the other guys are making like a moving wall, Leaky is sticking to TyTy, and they are both in the corner, and then curling under the basket, while the rest are setting up. If Leaky doesn't do that, it's probably an easy basket.

3. Wheeler is bringing up the ball on his left, facing Caleb. When Wheeler gets even with the top of the circle, he cuts right. Caleb moves with him. But Caleb is so far apart that when a UK guy sets a lazy screen, Caleb has no choice but to go under the screen. With the result that Wheeler has an open jump shot with Caleb 8 feet away, and easily drills it.

Well that’s kind of what players do….back off their man….when the guy they are defending is just way too quick for them.

This team should just play zone when we face teams like that….you are helping the opponent by staying in man defense.

 

[gberry78]

Don’t you think playing zone against Kentucky would have created an even greater rebounding disparity and given them even more 2nd chance opportunities? This team is soft and can’t even rebound in man. Heck I saw 2 plays where RJ didn’t want to grab a loose ball and started run down court anticipating a fast break. Then Caleb did the same on another. Watching those guys makes me really appreciate Cole cause he wasn’t scared to rebound and go after loose balls

 

[DrJaaay]

I'm not smart enough to say whether Love needs to be the PG. Maybe so. But my eyes tell me he's no leader.

Maybe he can grow into that leadership role, but does he want to?

Hey WWJD ... I don't pretend to actually know what needs to be done ... everything I'm saying is from watching that game with no sound on ... and while watching it I felt like RJ, Garcia and to a lesser degree, Manek, looked selfish.
I agree that it looks like Love doesn't care ... I attribute that to what King Coach said about "everyone is trying to get their selfish points so why should I (Love) play team ball?".
I also agree that Love doesn't appear to be a leader ... I'm just saying that I wish he would become our leader, because we desperately need one. I thought Manek might be that leader, but that doesn't appear to be happening either.
I sense locker room problems, but I'm not an insider ... it just looks that way to me. I hope I'm wrong. I still love this team because I think they could be Top 25, and on any given day I think they could upset anyone ... I just sense problems and feel like some people need to play for the team and not for themselves.

 

[TheGLOV]

F-I-G-H-T!

 

[DSouthr]

Guys, I am telling you the real concern, I feel a little like I am the only one talking about this but we are trying to to play a 2 Pg game without a single PG on the floor. Think about it, how would we look if our starting 2 guard today was Wayne Ellington and our starting 2 guard was McCants? 2 score first mind set guards that just did not approach the game like a PG has to. That is very different from a back court of say Ray Felton and Joel Berry, 2 PG mindsets on the court together.

The PG position is your QB, you must have a QB on the floor, a guy that looks primary to get us organized and executing our game plan, a guy looking first to distribute the ball realizing how important it is to get guys cranked up by getting them the ball in positions where they can finish. When a big realizes this he works harder to get in to good position but you don't reward a big man for his effort that effort goes away. Just because a kid may have the ability to be a PG, just because a kid may have the stature of a PG does not make him a PG. RJ, just plain facts, is a shooting guard, he just is not a PG. Caleb has amazing talent but he is a finisher not a distributor, he is trying but it is the ole square peg in a round hole deal, it has to be forced and it still doesn't work like you think it could.

What makes it even harder is there is no Kenny Williams style of thinking in those 2 fellas, Kenny took pride in his ability to defend, Caleb and RJ seem to defend because they have to rather than wanting to. Not throwing shade at those 2, it is what it is. Hubert inherited this back court and he is trying to make it work but I don't know that he will be able to, think at best it may be a 8 cylinder that best case can run on 7. I do think the best option as I see it right now is sit one of the 2, I would sit RJ and I would start Ant Harris, at very least I get a version of Kenny that can actually handle the ball some and guard some PGs if Caleb can not.

Is Trimble the answer, IDK any more than anyone else does or can, Hubert seems to feel he is a great addition so we will have to wait and see. I can tell you what I want to see as a PG play for us, I want a jet quickster that handles the ball so well that he can not be pressed that is able to survey the court and actually see his team mates and is willing to advance the ball to them on our breaks. I want him to drive with the primary goal of passing the ball rather than finish, want him to finish when the clear lane to the goal is there but thought be to dish it to a cutting big man or kick out to a open shooter. I want him to jump shoot well enough that defenses have to respect his ability to pull up, so they do not constantly back off and play him to drive. Trimble has the talent to do all of this but so does Caleb and RJ, but the question becomes is the mind willing...

 

[gberry78]

You hit the nail on the head.. Gary has been saying this for a while. The lack of a point is truly the main problem. The RJ experiment needs to end. He dribbles to much and never looks to set teammates up when he drives.. tho he did set up Bacot once against Kentucky. Caleb appears to be trying to facilitate but it doesn’t look to be natural or instinctual.

 

[Steat]

Offense is not the problem. It's the defense. Stop the other team and see what happens. Defense includes getting rebounds. There was one possession when Kentucky got four offensive rebounds on one trip downcourt.

You will not win any games allowing teams to score over 90 pts regadrless of how many point guards you have.

Fix the defense. Play some zone...mix it up.

 

[heels05champs]

Guys, I am telling you the real concern, I feel a little like I am the only one talking about this but we are trying to to play a 2 Pg game without a single PG on the floor. Think about it, how would we look if our starting 2 guard today was Wayne Ellington and our starting 2 guard was McCants? 2 score first mind set guards that just did not approach the game like a PG has to. That is very different from a back court of say Ray Felton and Joel Berry, 2 PG mindsets on the court together.

The PG position is your QB, you must have a QB on the floor, a guy that looks primary to get us organized and executing our game plan, a guy looking first to distribute the ball realizing how important it is to get guys cranked up by getting them the ball in positions where they can finish. When a big realizes this he works harder to get in to good position but you don't reward a big man for his effort that effort goes away. Just because a kid may have the ability to be a PG, just because a kid may have the stature of a PG does not make him a PG. RJ, just plain facts, is a shooting guard, he just is not a PG. Caleb has amazing talent but he is a finisher not a distributor, he is trying but it is the ole square peg in a round hole deal, it has to be forced and it still doesn't work like you think it could.

What makes it even harder is there is no Kenny Williams style of thinking in those 2 fellas, Kenny took pride in his ability to defend, Caleb and RJ seem to defend because they have to rather than wanting to. Not throwing shade at those 2, it is what it is. Hubert inherited this back court and he is trying to make it work but I don't know that he will be able to, think at best it may be a 8 cylinder that best case can run on 7. I do think the best option as I see it right now is sit one of the 2, I would sit RJ and I would start Ant Harris, at very least I get a version of Kenny that can actually handle the ball some and guard some PGs if Caleb can not.

Is Trimble the answer, IDK any more than anyone else does or can, Hubert seems to feel he is a great addition so we will have to wait and see. I can tell you what I want to see as a PG play for us, I want a jet quickster that handles the ball so well that he can not be pressed that is able to survey the court and actually see his team mates and is willing to advance the ball to them on our breaks. I want him to drive with the primary goal of passing the ball rather than finish, want him to finish when the clear lane to the goal is there but thought be to dish it to a cutting big man or kick out to a open shooter. I want him to jump shoot well enough that defenses have to respect his ability to pull up, so they do not constantly back off and play him to drive. Trimble has the talent to do all of this but so does Caleb and RJ, but the question becomes is the mind willing...

Well, that’s entirely on the coaching staff, both Roy and HD. They recruited the “combo guard” which typically means they’re not elite at either point guard or shooting guard so they get labeled combo guard. They should’ve recruited a floor general or addressed it in the transfer portal.

 

[DSouthr]

Where I think where gary and I differ on this question is that as I read it, gary does not seem to feel good about a 2 PG look where as I do think it can work and work well but you must have 2 Pgs to know and IMO we don't have even 1. I am not a fan of 2 shooting guards playing the 1 and the 2 and that is what I see us having right now. It is fine until you run in to a team that has solid talent all around and a NCAA D-1 level real PG, then it falters.

 

[King Coach]

Where I think where gary and I differ on this question is that as I read it, gary does not seem to feel good about a 2 PG look where as I do think it can work and work well but you must have 2 Pgs to know and IMO we don't have even 1. I am not a fan of 2 shooting guards playing the 1 and the 2 and that is what I see us having right now. It is fine until you run in to a team that has solid talent all around and a NCAA D-1 level real PG, then it falters.

Here’s my take……if Dean would never do it…..HD should never do it no matter how many true point guards are on the roster. HD rational is that you have two solid ball handlers in the game. That’s easy to fix, recruit a 6’4” or taller 2guard that can shoot , drive the ball with good handles. In basketball everybody should have a clear role. Taking turns being the point guard is silly. That’s what we have is two guys taking turns being the point guard…..not two guys playing the point at the same time which you can never do with only one ball.

 

[DSouthr]

Offense is not the problem. It's the defense. Stop the other team and see what happens. Defense includes getting rebounds. There was one possession when Kentucky got four offensive rebounds on one trip downcourt.

You will not win any games allowing teams to score over 90 pts regadrless of how many point guards you have.

Fix the defense. Play some zone...mix it up.

Steat my friend, I am going to respectfully disagree. Now of course, ain't gonna win many games when the other team scores 90+, that I will never argue against. I would add that you will not lose many games you score 90+ in either!

I do not believe the problem is defense, I believe the problem is offense, it is scoring or the lack of. This particular team plays with more effort, more spirit, harder when they are scoring well. But when they are not scoring well they tend to lose the defensive focus and effort. As you may recall, Dean made a huge point of his teams defending well because he wanted your defense to key your offense, thus energizing our breaks off of our defense. That is why Dean used his multiple defensive approach, to create TOs, why he preached blocking out and rebounding so hard, to limits their looks and get our game pace up.

I used to chuckle when I saw Roy talk about his being a defensive minded coach, I never saw Roy as a defensive minded coach. Roy out sized the opponents in the paint, with that size advantage forced teams to not crash the boards for offensive rebounds but retreat and get ready for our breaks. Roy's teams were best when he out scored the other team and forced them in to taking bad shots trying to play catch up to us, Roy was an offensive minded coach that had defenses play just well enough to let his scoring gain a winning margin. Tony Bennet by contrast is a defensive minded coach, his entire game plan revolves around his defense and that just was not what Roy did.

And who was the head coach for Hubert's entire assistant coaching career, it was Roy so no surprise that so far Hubert seems more of an offensive minded coach than a defensive minded one. If the meat and pototoes of what you do is offensive and your offense is not working then your defense is going to be a problem. May sound a bit like why did the chicken cross the road where it depends on who you ask but I think the real concern is more offense than defense and if the offense can get consistent then the defense will look much better. The whole remove the rims for practice thing from Roy was always for me a belly laugh.

 

[King Coach]

Steat my friend, I am going to respectfully disagree. Now of course, ain't gonna win many games when the other team scores 90+, that I will never argue against. I would add that you will not lose many games you score 90+ in either!

I do not believe the problem is defense, I believe the problem is offense, it is scoring or the lack of. This particular team plays with more effort, more spirit, harder when they are scoring well. But when they are not scoring well they tend to lose the defensive focus and effort. As you may recall, Dean made a huge point of his teams defending well because he wanted your defense to key your offense, thus energizing our breaks off of our defense. That is why Dean used his multiple defensive approach, to create TOs, why he preached blocking out and rebounding so hard, to limits their looks and get our game pace up.

I used to chuckle when I saw Roy talk about his being a defensive minded coach, I never saw Roy as a defensive minded coach. Roy out sized the opponents in the paint, with that size advantage forced teams to not crash the boards for offensive rebounds but retreat and get ready for our breaks. Roy's teams were best when he out scored the other team and forced them in to taking bad shots trying to play catch up to us, Roy was an offensive minded coach that had defenses play just well enough to let his scoring gain a winning margin. Tony Bennet by contrast is a defensive minded coach, his entire game plan revolves around his defense and that just was not what Roy did.

And who was the head coach for Hubert's entire assistant coaching career, it was Roy so no surprise that so far Hubert seems more of an offensive minded coach than a defensive minded one. If the meat and pototoes of what you do is offensive and your offense is not working then your defense is going to be a problem. May sound a bit like why did the chicken cross the road where it depends on who you ask but I think the real concern is more offense than defense and if the offense can get consistent then the defense will look much better. The whole remove the rims for practice thing from Roy was always for me a belly laugh.

The problem is both……the problem in offense is selfishness …..the problem on defense is our coach refuses to use multiple defenses and effort in that order

 

[DSouthr]

Here’s my take……if Dean would never do it…..HD should never do it no matter how many true point guards are on the roster. HD rational is that you have two solid ball handlers in the game. That’s easy to fix, recruit a 6’4” or taller 2guard that can shoot , drive the ball with good handles. In basketball everybody should have a clear role. Taking turns being the point guard is silly. That’s what we have is two guys taking turns being the point guard…..not two guys playing the point at the same time which you can never do with only one ball.

Again, as I just did with steat, respectfully disagree, I do think 2 Pgs on the court together can not only work and work well but Roy had a Kansas team that was VERY good and had just that, 2 Pgs on the court together. But those 2 Pgs absolutely MUST be and stay on the same page together, must communicate extremely well, must be able to morph their roles on the fly with the other knowing exactly what the other is doing. RJ and Caleb from what I see just are not on the same page together often, it becomes a your turn my turn deal and that is in direct opposition of how the 2 PG deal has to work. The closest thing Roy had at UNC to 2 Pgs on the floor together was Joel & Marcus and yet to me Marcus was just more of a 2 guard, and as gary & argued about Joel became more 2 guard orientated than I wish he had been.

2 PGs on the floor together should allow you to get out running quicker off defensive rebounds because you can outlet to either side as opposed to just one. Should allow you to attack the paint from either side with good spacing, should allow you to not worry about presses when you have 2 Pg like ball handlers, fewer careless passes with 2 guys more adept at distributing, see the court with 2 guys that realize they need to know where their team mates are. We don't see that now because we do not have 2 Pgs on the floor, we don't have 1pg on the floor, we have 2 shooting guards. Closest thing we have to a PG on this team is Lebo and he is blue steel and should be blue steel.

The if Dean didn't do it argument doesn't work, Dean never coached a pac man defense in his life but it works well for Tony Bennett. Dean didn't want his teams shooting treys, would you like for us to stop shooting treys now? Dean was a defensive minded coach, Roy was an offensive minded coach, both won nattys but they were very different.

Earlier in this thread I noticed some exchanges between gary and someone else, where I think gary made the case that there is another first year head coach, at Arizona who has his team playing really well right now. Many folks felt that when Gonzaga lost Lloyd with his taking the Arizona gig that they may have been better off keeping Lloyd and letting Mark Few go, he was HIGHLY respected and had a more heavy hand in their practice and player development than most assistants have. So far I can see that as a reasonable line of thought.

 

[DSouthr]

The problem is both……the problem in offense is selfishness …..the problem on defense is our coach refuses to use multiple defenses and effort in that order

I don't see it as selfishness, respectfully I don't. I see it as just not being on the same page together, I see it as 2 scoring guards (2 guards) playing as scoring guards and we having no PG. Because of that they are confusing their roles, for example when to hand off and expect the switch, has to be timed right, it is not timed right way to often.

If we trotted out a back court of Mckoy and Styles, in a skinny minute you guys would see where I am coming from, with RJ and Caleb, they may look more like what you expect a PG to look like, they may handle the ball better than a power forward, that does not make them PGs.

I would challenge anyone to explain to me how is it that RJ can see the court with the vision a PG MUST have, to know where his team mates are and what they are doing, which way they are cutting, which way will they come off this screen, when his eyes are looking down at the floor rather than up? A PG has to know where his mates are at all times, he has to play with his head up so he can see, not head down worried about where his dribble is. You watch, don't listen to me, you watch RJ when he is challenged on his dribble, you tell me where his eyes are looking! On a drive in to the paint where a PG is looking to finish and is not thinking pass out, his eyes will always be down until he goes up for the finish. How do you pass to a guy that you do not see?

 

[DSouthr]

The problem is both……the problem in offense is selfishness …..the problem on defense is our coach refuses to use multiple defenses and effort in that order

I am curious, was that your position when Roy was our coach? I spoke to that as a short coming of Roy's for years, I am well on record saying that but I don't recall you being on that bad wagon with me? Asking respectfully.

Just to add, I do not expect many, if any to really agree with what I am offering in these last few replies from me, my sense is they may not be popular opinions. But for me, my opinion does not have to be popular if it is what I believe and see. I am trying to remain respectful and try to explain so that folks can understand my position even if they do not agree with me, if you understand why I take the positions I do yet still disagree, I am good with that, I just want you to understand why I feel like I do. You make your own decisions based on your belief and that I can respect if I can understand why you think as you do.

 

[gary-7]

Where I think where gary and I differ on this question is that as I read it, gary does not seem to feel good about a 2 PG look where as I do think it can work and work well but you must have 2 Pgs to know and IMO we don't have even 1. I am not a fan of 2 shooting guards playing the 1 and the 2 and that is what I see us having right now. It is fine until you run in to a team that has solid talent all around and a NCAA D-1 level real PG, then it falters.

I've long said that any PG who can shoot can play the 2 offensively (but NOT vice versa, as you correctly point out), so that's not the problem. My issue with the two PG thing is that one of them needs to be designated the 1 when they're on the floor together.

Joel and Marcus were both obviously legit D1 PGs, BUT when they played together, JB was always the 1. That avoids confusion and for both the players and their teammates. So, given that the collective PG IQ of our current backcourt is, well... considerably less than that of those guys, it makes it all the more important to establish positional identity.

 

[King Coach]

I am curious, was that your position when Roy was our coach? I spoke to that as a short coming of Roy's for years, I am well on record saying that but I don't recall you being on that bad wagon with me? Asking respectfully.

Just to add, I do not expect many, if any to really agree with what I am offering in these last few replies from me, my sense is they may not be popular opinions. But for me, my opinion does not have to be popular if it is what I believe and see. I am trying to remain respectful and try to explain so that folks can understand my position even if they do not agree with me, if you understand why I take the positions I do yet still disagree, I am good with that, I just want you to understand why I feel like I do. You make your own decisions based on your belief and that I can respect if I can understand why you think as you do.

DSouth we are good brother….I’m old school..so I respect everyone’s take. We will never agree on all things but that’s what make this board interesting.

My biggest thing with Coach RW was his stubbornness on using timeouts and in-game adjustments. I always felt like he knew the right thing to do but he just couldn’t bring himself to do it because he was stubborn as a mule.

 

[King Coach]

I don't see it as selfishness, respectfully I don't. I see it as just not being on the same page together, I see it as 2 scoring guards (2 guards) playing as scoring guards and we having no PG. Because of that they are confusing their roles, for example when to hand off and expect the switch, has to be timed right, it is not timed right way to often.

If we trotted out a back court of Mckoy and Styles, in a skinny minute you guys would see where I am coming from, with RJ and Caleb, they may look more like what you expect a PG to look like, they may handle the ball better than a power forward, that does not make them PGs.

I would challenge anyone to explain to me how is it that RJ can see the court with the vision a PG MUST have, to know where his team mates are and what they are doing, which way they are cutting, which way will they come off this screen, when his eyes are looking down at the floor rather than up? A PG has to know where his mates are at all times, he has to play with his head up so he can see, not head down worried about where his dribble is. You watch, don't listen to me, you watch RJ when he is challenged on his dribble, you tell me where his eyes are looking! On a drive in to the paint where a PG is looking to finish and is not thinking pass out, his eyes will always be down until he goes up for the finish. How do you pass to a guy that you do not see?

I agree with you on RJ. I remember people saying that RJ worked on his floater last Summer….I was waiting to hear that he worked on his handles and passing and leadership.
I say selfishness because when you take the ball in to end and don’t even look at a teammate and throw up a crazy shot that just selfishness. When García shoots every time he touches it no matter how many defenders…that is just selfishness. Carolina basketball is recognizing when you are doubled and finding the open man. Not catching a pass and trying to dribble through 2 or 3 defenders. The ball don’t move around on this team…..each player is trying to get theirs which show their basketball IQ.

Carolina use to get players in the NBA because the NBA scouts knew that a Carolina player was fundamentally sound. This group still don’t know UNC history….team success will lead to individual success. Make a deep run in the Big Dance with each player playing a disciplined game….scouts will start to look at you and your potential. What do scouts see when they see RJ Jacking up shots or Black hole García?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

we are trying to to play a 2 Pg game without a single PG on the floor.

I hear you. It definitely seems that way sometimes.

 

[DSouthr]

I've long said that any PG who can shoot can play the 2 offensively (but NOT vice versa, as you correctly point out), so that's not the problem. My issue with the two PG thing is that one of them needs to be designated the 1 when they're on the floor together.

Joel and Marcus were both obviously legit D1 PGs, BUT when they played together, JB was always the 1. That avoids confusion and for both the players and their teammates. So, given that the collective PG IQ of our current backcourt is, well... considerably less than that of those guys, it makes it all the more important to establish positional identity.

Yeah, I pretty much agree thou I am a bit more inclined to believe that with the right pair they could morph positions on the fly but it would be extremely hard to find just that right pair. Now I did always see Marcus as more a true combo that hedged more as a 2 than a point but much much more adept at playing the point role than either RJ or Caleb.

I do 1,000% agree, for RJ and Caleb, if they are on the floor together their roles have to be specific as to which is the PG and which is the 2 and I think a lot of our problem comes from their not being as certain of what role they are suppose to be in. Their communication, a trait I think is extremely important for a PG, is not good and at times flat out unacceptable. I do think Caleb is the better choice to be our PG between the 2 if for no other reason than he has actually shown the most improvement in that role. When he drives he has actually looked to pass it at times, where RJ drives the lane he only seems to pass it when he is in trouble and looking for a bail out.

I will offer, counter to my point, in football, if you have to platoon your starting QBs then you do not have a starting QB, the PG position is not considered to be much different.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Before I give the wrong impression, let me just say that I like both of our PGs. I like RJ a little more than Caleb, but I like Caleb, too. Caleb has more upside, but RJ has more grit.

Both can be awesome. Both can really screw the pooch. Both need to improve, but I think both can improve.

Most of the time, I think Caleb is ahead of RJ in showing he gets it. In fact, a week or 2 ago, I was sure Caleb had finally turned the corner. That now seems to have been premature, but I still think he's close. And I think RJ will get there, too, probably later this season.

So . . . being an equal-opportunity fan, I figure the only fair thing to do is jump all over both of them while we still can. That way when it comes time to eat our words, at least we will have gotten our money's worth.

 

[DSouthr]

I agree with you on RJ. I remember people saying that RJ worked on his floater last Summer….I was waiting to hear that he worked on his handles and passing and leadership.
I say selfishness because when you take the ball in to end and don’t even look at a teammate and throw up a crazy shot that just selfishness. When García shoots every time he touches it no matter how many defenders…that is just selfishness. Carolina basketball is recognizing when you are doubled and finding the open man. Not catching a pass and trying to dribble through 2 or 3 defenders. The ball don’t move around on this team…..each player is trying to get theirs which show their basketball IQ.

Carolina use to get players in the NBA because the NBA scouts knew that a Carolina player was fundamentally sound. This group still don’t know UNC history….team success will lead to individual success. Make a deep run in the Big Dance with each player playing a disciplined game….scouts will start to look at you and your potential. What do scouts see when they see RJ Jacking up shots or Black hole García?

Yeah, I agree, garcia does seem to shoot a bit to much at times but to me the single worst example of selfishness I have seen this season came from Manek. I think it was 3 games ago, I spoke about this in a couple different threads after that game. But 3 trips in a row on our offensive end Manek threw up 3 treys early in the shot clock, missed all 3. The just a couple minutes later, 2 more possessions in a row he did the same thing? Now I considered it to be bone headed, looking to make up for the 3 empty trips that were his fault but I can easy see it being considered selfish. And I want to be clear, I do not actually see Manek as a selfish player, I don't really see any of our players as playing selfish. I truly believe what they are doing is making poor decisions motivated by sincerely wanting to help this team.

For example, you see Caleb take a jump shot from Asheville (the state of NC logo on the court) is that a selfish shot? He makes the shot, was it a bad shot, was it a selfish shot? Does the fact that it did or didn't go in make it any less a selfish shot or a bad shot? It is a bad shot, no matter if it went in or not to me, it was a bad shot with a good result and for the record there are good shots with bad results to. When you see Manek take a long trey when he has a hand in his face is that a bad shot, if it goes in, is it a bad shot even if we had no board coverage when he took and made the shot? For me it does not matter if it goes in or not to define if it was a good or bad shot and yes to me my example is that of a bad shot, a bad shot that went in, a bad shot with a good result is still a bad shot. if you get in to the trap of taking bad shots just because they go in at times the results is not going to be good in the long run. To me that is not selfish, it is poor decision making rather than selfish. JUST MY OPINION!