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Who goes to the bench?

I think for UNC to hit its ceiling Berry has to run point. He is the best true pg and the less wear and tear on Marcus the better. Pinson and Hicks give us some athletic size off the bench. Roy's system needs a point who can force tempo and Berry is best suited to do that and if Heels can be going a solid 8 or 9 deep through conference play then Paige will be rested for tourney time
 
the cool thing is when marcus comes back, he makes everybody better. his leadership, savvy, scoring, passing, and play-making should take a little pressure off our backcourt and help everyone play with more confidence. there were times against k state that i was wondering who was going to score or create a shot for someone else.... until our big run at the end. i think berry and pinson will end up with the same amount of minutes, regardless of who starts.
 
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In certain stretches, Justin and theo have scored and rebounded better than Meeks and Brice. If those goons don't man up and give us activity when they are on the court, I'd about rather see berry, Paige, theo, Justin and the better of Johnson/Meeks.
Meeks especially. His rebounding last 2-3 games has been abysmal.
 
I love Berry, but he is struggling right now. He has 10 assists to 7 turnovers the last 3 games while shooting 34%. Wouldn't be surprised at all if Pinson remains a starter.
 
Pinson might be the best passer on the team and he's easily the most versatile guy we have along with being the best or second best run/jump athlete on the team. There's no doubt that he has stepped up big time. He's been all over the box scores. Right now, I'd say Theo probably deserves the starting spot over Berry by the slimmest of margins. However, I agree with those that have said Berry's development is critical to this team's long term success. So for that reason, let's put the ball in his hands and get him the training he'll need for a March run. I also think it's easier to expect a guy like Pinson to come off the bench. The PG needs to be out there from the jump to get a feel of the tempo and climate. That's not as important for a guy like a Theo who won't have the responsibility of quarterbacking the team when he's in the game.

Berry, Paige, Jackson, Johnson, Meeks to start. But like a few others have said, Hicks has been great and I support him getting 20+ minutes on the floor as well as Pinson. Nate and Luke after that.
 
I love Berry, but he is struggling right now. He has 10 assists to 7 turnovers the last 3 games while shooting 34%. Wouldn't be surprised at all if Pinson remains a starter.

By his own admission, Berry had a poor game vs KState.
Stats are also very misleading, Though the shooting numbers don't lie. As for dimes, you'll often see another teammate get an assist from a play set up by Berry. ie. He'll break down the defense, create an opportunity, make a pass and the recipient will make the extra pass for the bucket. Justin and Theo (don't get me wrong, both are good passers) have benefitted from the way Joel sets up the offense.

As far as moving to the bench, I don't think it'll change Pinson one bit, in fact it might be good for him - I think his game translates to instant energy off the bench. He's a terrific back-up for Justin and equally worthy to spell either Marcus or Berry.

I am hoping after Maryland Roy is able to go much deeper to the bench against some weaker foes. Both to keep the starters fresh and to give those reserves needed game-time.
 
As for dimes, you'll often see another teammate get an assist from a play set up by Berry. ie. He'll break down the defense, create an opportunity, make a pass and the recipient will make the extra pass for the bucket. Justin and Theo (don't get me wrong, both are good passers) have benefitted from the way Joel sets up the offense.
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Precisely (not to mention that the sheer number of blown assists thus far have been rather extraordinary), and when he's not in the game that whole process you so accurately described --- the essence of what good team offense is supposed to be --- goes south pretty fast. People citing his current assist/TO ratio are looking at a short-term illusion --- by all rights it should be better that 2.5-to-1 just from a normal pct of cashing in on his dimes. And I can tell ya, there have been so many times this season where if Marcus was out there in the 2 role our offensive efficiency would have been that much better since JB's PG work has also created a plethora of open perimeter looks that have not been cashed in on.
Put MP out there with JB and just watch the opportunities open up even more. They did last season --- should be even better this season.
 
Precisely (not to mention that the sheer number of blown assists thus far have been rather extraordinary), and when he's not in the game that whole process you so accurately described --- the essence of what good team offense is supposed to be --- goes south pretty fast. People citing his current assist/TO ratio are looking at a short-term illusion --- by all rights it should be better that 2.5-to-1 just from a normal pct of cashing in on his dimes. And I can tell ya, there have been so many times this season where if Marcus was out there in the 2 role our offensive efficiency would have been that much better since JB's PG work has also created a plethora of open perimeter looks that have not been cashed in on.
Put MP out there with JB and just watch the opportunities open up even more. They did last season --- should be even better this season.

Love theo but I am not sure why this is even a question, Joel at the point allows Marcus to find his shot and this team needs marcus shot making ability. Frankly, when Joel goes to the bench I would slide Marcus over to the point and come in with either Theo or Nate at the 2, I am not a fan of Nate at the point to the extent I would almost prefer Stilman at the point over Nate. Not trying to dump on Nate but we tend to bog down and become a jump shooting team late in the shot clock with Nate at the point, not a fan of that at all and the secondary break almost disappears.
 
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Love theo but I am not sure why this is even a question, Joel at the point allows Marcus to find his shot and this team needs marcus shot making ability. Frankly, when Joel goes to the bench I would slide Marcus over to the point and come in with either Theo or Nate at the 2, I am not a fan of Nate at the point to the extent I would almost prefer Stilman at the point over Nate. Not trying to dump on Nate but we tend to bog down and become a jump shooting team late in the shot clock with Nate at the point, not a fan of that at all and the secondary break almost disappears.

Spot on. The ENTIRE TEAM does better when Britt isn't the PG. Start Joel, then slide Marcus over and bring in Pinson.
 
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It's gotta be Berry at the point and MP at guard when he returns. MP is best off the ball hunting his shot, knocking down 3's and being our team leader. Berry is the pg that needs to run the show, set guys up and take pressure off MP. We don't need MP running the show and trying to score. He needs to look for his shot and not have to focus on being the setup guy. Pinson will serve a valuable role being our 6th man but for this team to go deep in March, the reigns have to be given to Berry and let him have all season to learn and grow as the team's PG.
 
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Love theo but I am not sure why this is even a question, Joel at the point allows Marcus to find his shot and this team needs marcus shot making ability. Frankly, when Joel goes to the bench I would slide Marcus over to the point and come in with either Theo or Nate at the 2, I am not a fan of Nate at the point to the extent I would almost prefer Stilman at the point over Nate. Not trying to dump on Nate but we tend to bog down and become a jump shooting team late in the shot clock with Nate at the point, not a fan of that at all and the secondary break almost disappears.
You will get no argument from me.
 
Love theo but I am not sure why this is even a question, Joel at the point allows Marcus to find his shot and this team needs marcus shot making ability. Frankly, when Joel goes to the bench I would slide Marcus over to the point and come in with either Theo or Nate at the 2, I am not a fan of Nate at the point to the extent I would almost prefer Stilman at the point over Nate. Not trying to dump on Nate but we tend to bog down and become a jump shooting team late in the shot clock with Nate at the point, not a fan of that at all and the secondary break almost disappears.
Nate has a higher ORtg AND a higher DRtg than either JoelB or Theo. FWIW.

My sense is that Nate may be at his best as SG, but he's certainly adequate at PG. JoelB isn't appreciably better at the moment but has more upside, so he should get the PT to hasten his development. The same can be said for Theo (I know, no one was suggesting he play PG, but the truth is his handle is OK and he could play it in a pinch, much like JP did at times last season).

My bets are:

1. Nate stays on the bench but gets fewer minutes.
2. JoelB starts because Roy will want Marcus to ease into the game and, as noted, Marcus may be better for us (if not for his pro career) playing at SG.
3. Since JoelB gets the starting nod at PG, the position is his to lose, and Theo's to fight for (that is, Theo fights for SG minutes, which would push MP to PG and JoelB to the bench).
4. Roy wants Theo to get good enough to do #3, but he isn't there yet, and JoelB will fight to keep what he has earned.
5. What team we see in March depends mainly on how good Theo gets.
 
The matchups in the UMd game will be interesting and instructive.

It would be good fun to see Marcus vs Melo on both ends of the court, but I suspect we won't see that at either end. Turgeon will want Sulaimon on Marcus. Roy may not want Marcus covering Melo his first game back.

Trimble is shooting much worse from deep so far this year. But much better from 2-pt range. That's a bit of a relief on the 3-pt side but his 68% shooting from closer in is a bit scary. The problem is that we have no guard (including Theo) who is particularly at sticking with their man. Unless Trimble is having an off shooting night, that could spell big trouble. It's our court, so that helps.
 
The matchups in the UMd game will be interesting and instructive.

It would be good fun to see Marcus vs Melo on both ends of the court, but I suspect we won't see that at either end. Turgeon will want Sulaimon on Marcus. Roy may not want Marcus covering Melo his first game back.

Trimble is shooting much worse from deep so far this year. But much better from 2-pt range. That's a bit of a relief on the 3-pt side but his 68% shooting from closer in is a bit scary. The problem is that we have no guard (including Theo) who is particularly at sticking with their man. Unless Trimble is having an off shooting night, that could spell big trouble. It's our court, so that helps.




WHO STARTS and who comes off of the bench really does NOT matter. It is about the Top 8-9 guys for this team. Roy and staff will make the correct decisions. UNC just needs to focus on winning. The rest will absolutely take care of itself, game in, game out...
 
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The gulf between Berry and Britt is tremendous, although early hot shooting by Nate might make it appear less so in some statistical analysis. I get the argument that Marcus is equal to Berry in pure PG terms, although I disagree with that as well.
 
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It's gotta be Berry at the point and MP at guard when he returns. MP is best off the ball hunting his shot, knocking down 3's and being our team leader. Berry is the pg that needs to run the show, set guys up and take pressure off MP. We don't need MP running the show and trying to score. He needs to look for his shot and not have to focus on being the setup guy. Pinson will serve a valuable role being our 6th man but for this team to go deep in March, the reigns have to be given to Berry and let him have all season to learn and grow as the team's PG.
I agree completely. If Berry develops into the player many of us think he can be, we can play with anyone. Theo is the perfect guy to come off the bench, a uber energy guy who can play multiple positions. That's a wonderful asset to have. My biggest concern is getting our bigs to defend and rebound more consistently. We'll be more than fine at the one and two spots. I worry a bit that Theo and JJ are our only true threes.
 
Nate has a higher ORtg AND a higher DRtg than either JoelB or Theo. FWIW.

My sense is that Nate may be at his best as SG, but he's certainly adequate at PG. JoelB isn't appreciably better at the moment but has more upside, so he should get the PT to hasten his development. The same can be said for Theo (I know, no one was suggesting he play PG, but the truth is his handle is OK and he could play it in a pinch, much like JP did at times last season).
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No offense, but that might be the most appropriate use of "FWIW" I can think of, because whatever those numbers are, they obviously ain't worth much... and as for that "isn't appreciably better" part? The numbers that actually matter show something quite different.
 
It's gotta be Berry at the point and MP at guard when he returns. MP is best off the ball hunting his shot, knocking down 3's and being our team leader. Berry is the pg that needs to run the show, set guys up and take pressure off MP. We don't need MP running the show and trying to score. He needs to look for his shot and not have to focus on being the setup guy. Pinson will serve a valuable role being our 6th man but for this team to go deep in March, the reigns have to be given to Berry and let him have all season to learn and grow as the team's PG.
This article says a lot, and fits right in with that. Tuesday was a big step... and something that in itself separates from last season. Marcus needs to come back, not as the focal point that we lean on, but as the final ingredient in a potential championship stew.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/article46384105.html

Roy says it well here about getting past just looking for #5 all the time (and I also like JB joining MP in earning Roy's "tough little nut" moniker) :cool:
 
Nate has a higher ORtg AND a higher DRtg than either JoelB or Theo. FWIW.

My sense is that Nate may be at his best as SG, but he's certainly adequate at PG. JoelB isn't appreciably better at the moment but has more upside, so he should get the PT to hasten his development. The same can be said for Theo (I know, no one was suggesting he play PG, but the truth is his handle is OK and he could play it in a pinch, much like JP did at times last season).

My bets are:

1. Nate stays on the bench but gets fewer minutes.
2. JoelB starts because Roy will want Marcus to ease into the game and, as noted, Marcus may be better for us (if not for his pro career) playing at SG.
3. Since JoelB gets the starting nod at PG, the position is his to lose, and Theo's to fight for (that is, Theo fights for SG minutes, which would push MP to PG and JoelB to the bench).
4. Roy wants Theo to get good enough to do #3, but he isn't there yet, and JoelB will fight to keep what he has earned.
5. What team we see in March depends mainly on how good Theo gets.

Boss, forgive me now because this is going to come off harsher than I wish it to.

Best advice I can give ya on things like this is to watch the game and forget about stat sheets, your eyes will tell you what the stat sheet doesn't. I could almost buy Nate for now having a higher offensive rating because he did make a good number of wide open shots in the first couple games. But I have watched, I have replayed games and specifically watched for some key things and to see you suggest that Nate is a better defender (else what point to sharing defensive ratings) just BLOWS MY MIND !
 
WHO STARTS and who comes off of the bench really does NOT matter. It is about the Top 8-9 guys for this team. Roy and staff will make the correct decisions. UNC just needs to focus on winning. The rest will absolutely take care of itself, game in, game out...
Did you mean this comment in response to a different post? My comment was about matchups, not who starts.
 
No offense, but that might be the most appropriate use of "FWIW" I can think of, because whatever those numbers are, they obviously ain't worth much... and as for that "isn't appreciably better" part? The numbers that actually matter show something quite different.
That was exactly what I meant by my FWIW. Some people seem to go all gooey over ORtg (in particular), but those numbers often don't seem to match up all that well with overall impressions.

As for the "not appreciably better part" that's based on watching JoelB being even worse on D than Nate. Not by a lot, and I don't expect that to be true later in the season because JoelB will eventually figure it out (I hope) and then his superior strength will make him a good defender. But so far this year, he gets the award for "Player Most Likely to be Left Flatfooted" on defense - beating out Theo by a small margin.

Nate is at least able to keep up with his man most of the time. Unfortunately, he doesn't have the strength to translate that into a stop very often. Part of which, I think, is that he keeps his hands too low.

One of the things I've noticed (by rewinding when we get beat on an outside shot) is that JoelB has often been scraped off by a screen, Theo has often just wandered away from his man, and Nate is often rushing to cover for one or the other of them.

We don't expect Nate to be the man. So JoelB and Theo need to get better. I expect they will.
 
Boss, forgive me now because this is going to come off harsher than I wish it to.

Best advice I can give ya on things like this is to watch the game and forget about stat sheets, your eyes will tell you what the stat sheet doesn't. I could almost buy Nate for now having a higher offensive rating because he did make a good number of wide open shots in the first couple games. But I have watched, I have replayed games and specifically watched for some key things and to see you suggest that Nate is a better defender (else what point to sharing defensive ratings) just BLOWS MY MIND !
Please note that I'm not saying that Nate is a good defender. What I'm saying is that the people who are gushing about JoelB and Theo must be grading them on potential, not current performance. I see that potential, too. But they are losing their men at a much higher rate than I'm used to seeing.

One way I look at is is when they encounter a screen, how many steps do they give to the offensive player. JoelB is simply awful on this measure. Theo's problem is different. If he's defending a guy on the perimeter who takes up a position, Theo drifts toward the action. Not necessarily a bad thing, but he drifts too far from his man and if the ball swings back, he can't get there in time.

I expect these flaws to be erased soon enough. Both should be better. But both are only sophs and both missed some of their frosh season. So I'll just wait for them to get better.
 
Well, neither of them have been good defensively. I mainly look at the two from an offensive perspective because their defense just isn't that great. Nate can make some shoots. I like Berry offensively in almost every way though. I'm not dogging on Britt or anything. I may want his minutes cut some but he still needs to play for sure. He is an important part of the team.
 
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That was exactly what I meant by my FWIW. Some people seem to go all gooey over ORtg (in particular), but those numbers often don't seem to match up all that well with overall impressions.

As for the "not appreciably better part" that's based on watching JoelB being even worse on D than Nate. Not by a lot, and I don't expect that to be true later in the season because JoelB will eventually figure it out (I hope) and then his superior strength will make him a good defender. But so far this year, he gets the award for "Player Most Likely to be Left Flatfooted" on defense - beating out Theo by a small margin.

Nate is at least able to keep up with his man most of the time. Unfortunately, he doesn't have the strength to translate that into a stop very often. Part of which, I think, is that he keeps his hands too low.

One of the things I've noticed (by rewinding when we get beat on an outside shot) is that JoelB has often been scraped off by a screen, Theo has often just wandered away from his man, and Nate is often rushing to cover for one or the other of them. .
That is not even remotely true. Again, no offense, but what sport are you watching? JB with only a few lapses has been our best defender. Nate has been... Nate.
Wow. Just wow.
 
Did someone really brag on Nate's defense?? Wow, Nate may easily be the worst defender on the entire team. None of the guys that get regular minutes get beat as often as Nate.
 
It's Theo off the bench, like everyone says the energy will give a spark--Berry will continue to get a lot better when Marcus takes some pressure off him--Berry is still inexperienced, and had to run it too soon, now hand the keys back to the young man from Iowa. Set it on cruise
 
Might wanna look again :confused:
Yeah. Except my observations were based on backing up the DVR for closer looks.

I see potential, but you and a lot of others seem to think he's already there, and he simply isn't. Maybe later this season. Surely by next year. We'll see.

The sooner the better obviously, but we just aren't that good defensively yet.
 
Yeah. Except my observations were based on backing up the DVR for closer looks.

I see potential, but you and a lot of others seem to think he's already there, and he simply isn't. Maybe later this season. Surely by next year. We'll see.

The sooner the better obviously, but we just aren't that good defensively yet.
No we're not as good defensively as we need to be yet, and I could give you myriad reasons why, but if you think that's because of JB, or more absurdly, that Britt is better defensively? Well... you can back up that DVR as much you want, but......
Hell, I'll give ya the 3 main reasons that we've had defensive lapses:
1. Lack of consistent defensive effort from our Bigs
2. Inconsistent communication, especially on high screens
3. Wings overrunning plays and being out of position on help
The best flurry of defense we played all year was in the last 4+ minutes of the KSU game when suddenly everyone on the floor got a sense of urgency and did what they were supposed to do... and I can tell ya 100%, that defensive flurry (not to mention the comeback) doesn't happen without Berry on the floor.
 
Yeah. Except my observations were based on backing up the DVR for closer looks.

I see potential, but you and a lot of others seem to think he's already there, and he simply isn't. Maybe later this season. Surely by next year. We'll see.

The sooner the better obviously, but we just aren't that good defensively yet.




So... Well... You have now decided to become the underlying factor in how well our defense is playing (certain players included) and/or who should be getting the majority of minutes in the UNC backcourt...?!? I will say that you have come back with a bang, for certain... (jmho)...:cool:
 
Why are we arguing with this guy so much? Berry is going to be a very good point for us, but his on ball D has been bad. Weshpun (spellng?) went by him repeatedly and Britt did a better job. THis is a fact, not conjecture. Our D will get better now because MP can guard the opponent's driver until our other perimeter peeps learn to keep their man in front of them. They need to learn to play ball screens better and to ID which peeps are drivers and which are shooters. Berry and Theo lost important time where these points would have become second nature, they both will become very good defenders IMO, and hopefully, our Bigs will give more effort and show better on every screen too!

Both MD guards can drive so we need to get better QUICKLY And I trust Roy to drive this point home!
 
Berry is a lot of the times being sold out by bad shows by our bigs on screens which is leading to the big essentially screening Berry out of the play.
 
Please note that I'm not saying that Nate is a good defender. What I'm saying is that the people who are gushing about JoelB and Theo must be grading them on potential, not current performance. I see that potential, too. But they are losing their men at a much higher rate than I'm used to seeing.

One way I look at is is when they encounter a screen, how many steps do they give to the offensive player. JoelB is simply awful on this measure. Theo's problem is different. If he's defending a guy on the perimeter who takes up a position, Theo drifts toward the action. Not necessarily a bad thing, but he drifts too far from his man and if the ball swings back, he can't get there in time.

I expect these flaws to be erased soon enough. Both should be better. But both are only sophs and both missed some of their frosh season. So I'll just wait for them to get better.

I have to disagree, hopefully without becoming disagreeable. I am not looking to trash your opinion nor am I looking to throw one of our players under the bus, I just call it like I see it. I will even add now that IMO Joel did not have a great road trip defensively. Having said all that, one of the things I have done, since Joel's PT amped up in the last 3rd of last season was to watch his individual play off the ball. One of the problems we have had over the last few years defensively is that we lose the ball handler at times and have to go in to scamble.

It may look at times like a player is poor on the defensive end, get caught out of position but many times it is because of a missed assignment (by a team mate) that the player had to react to. I know many felt I was and maybe still am to hard on Nate but the one thing I saw crystal clear is that Nate gets beat off the ball a lot, from what I see a lot more than our other guys. Joel on the other hand, is pretty darn solid, he misses spacing at times (weight on back foot expecting a drive) but other wise he is solid. Nate is a little guy but nate doesn't "always" move his feet on defense, rarely will he ever fight thru a screen, we are constantly having to switch or scramble to cover his guy. I have watched this over and over and over. I do feel like he is working harder this season so far but the last couple games I have seen (did not see the NI game) he seemed to revert back to last season.

I do think our guards as a whole are struggling with the new whistle, trying to figure out spacing so they can get back but not get the whistle for touching. I noticed vs K-State we switched a lot more than usual and we have the athletes to be able to do that, good move IMO. We still struggle to have our bigs gives us a good show and not screen out our own defenders, at times Joel James sets better screens against his own mates than he does against the opponents. LOL
 
No we're not as good defensively as we need to be yet, and I could give you myriad reasons why, but if you think that's because of JB, or more absurdly, that Britt is better defensively? Well... you can back up that DVR as much you want, but......
Hell, I'll give ya the 3 main reasons that we've had defensive lapses:
1. Lack of consistent defensive effort from our Bigs
2. Inconsistent communication, especially on high screens
3. Wings overrunning plays and being out of position on help
The best flurry of defense we played all year was in the last 4+ minutes of the KSU game when suddenly everyone on the floor got a sense of urgency and did what they were supposed to do... and I can tell ya 100%, that defensive flurry (not to mention the comeback) doesn't happen without Berry on the floor.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I've been specific about where I think JB has problems (losing his man) and where NB has problems (staying closer, but being ineffective).

Nor have I said that JB's defensive lapses are the reason why we aren't good on defense. I am simply reacting to the often-repeated uncritical gushing about what a great defender JB is - because he just isn't there yet.
 
I have to disagree, hopefully without becoming disagreeable. I am not looking to trash your opinion nor am I looking to throw one of our players under the bus, I just call it like I see it. I will even add now that IMO Joel did not have a great road trip defensively. Having said all that, one of the things I have done, since Joel's PT amped up in the last 3rd of last season was to watch his individual play off the ball. One of the problems we have had over the last few years defensively is that we lose the ball handler at times and have to go in to scamble.

It may look at times like a player is poor on the defensive end, get caught out of position but many times it is because of a missed assignment (by a team mate) that the player had to react to. I know many felt I was and maybe still am to hard on Nate but the one thing I saw crystal clear is that Nate gets beat off the ball a lot, from what I see a lot more than our other guys. Joel on the other hand, is pretty darn solid, he misses spacing at times (weight on back foot expecting a drive) but other wise he is solid. Nate is a little guy but nate doesn't "always" move his feet on defense, rarely will he ever fight thru a screen, we are constantly having to switch or scramble to cover his guy. I have watched this over and over and over. I do feel like he is working harder this season so far but the last couple games I have seen (did not see the NI game) he seemed to revert back to last season.

I do think our guards as a whole are struggling with the new whistle, trying to figure out spacing so they can get back but not get the whistle for touching. I noticed vs K-State we switched a lot more than usual and we have the athletes to be able to do that, good move IMO. We still struggle to have our bigs gives us a good show and not screen out our own defenders, at times Joel James sets better screens against his own mates than he does against the opponents. LOL
Since I have started rewinding and looking at more plays, I have seen the exact opposite of what you describe.

Maybe we are just rewatching different plays or different games.
 
So... Well... You have now decided to become the underlying factor in how well our defense is playing (certain players included) and/or who should be getting the majority of minutes in the UNC backcourt...?!? I will say that you have come back with a bang, for certain... (jmho)...:cool:
That's a rather silly reaction and doesn't reflect what I was saying at all.
 
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