What's wrong with the Tar Heel defense?

[Archer2]

We have sufficient talent on defense to field a solid defensive unit, not great but solid. But we are just plain bad. Blown assignments, poor tackling, mental mistakes for penalties, all are very common in every game we play. That is poor coaching, pure and simple.

If we we were fundamentally sound(good tacklers, knew our assignments, and made few mental mistakes), I would say talent was the issue. But we aren't and it isn't.

 

[blazers]

We have sufficient talent on defense to field a solid defensive unit, not great but solid. But we are just plain bad. Blown assignments, poor tackling, mental mistakes for penalties, all are very common in every game we play. That is poor coaching, pure and simple.

If we we were fundamentally sound(good tacklers, knew our assignments, and made few mental mistakes), I would say talent was the issue. But we aren't and it isn't.

Mostly agree except that weaknesses in front 4 can wreck assignments and tax ability to execute to a mental plan. And it can force a staff into dilemmas.

 

[Davis618]

Are the defensive coaches that much worse than last year. Can Fedora not find any good DC to hire?

 

[GoNtheDistance]

No good defensive coordinator will stay at UNC under Fedora because the odds simply aren't in your favor given our style on O.

 

[Davis618]

Then Fedora needs to go

 

[blazers]

Plenty of hurry up teams have good DCs. Coaches and ADs know how to judge a coaches ability, they don't do it based on win loss records or other stats in a vacuum.

 

[uncboy10]

Plenty of hurry up teams have good DCs. Coaches and ADs know how to judge a coaches ability, they don't do it based on win loss records or other stats in a vacuum.

Thank you.

 

[Archer2]

Thank you.

So is it too soon to judge ours?

 

[Davis618]

Plenty of hurry up teams have good DCs. Coaches and ADs know how to judge a coaches ability, they don't do it based on win loss records or other stats in a vacuum.

Then why don't we have one? There has been way too much turnover with our defensive coaches. Our defense has given up way too many points. My original question was is it lack of talent or poor coaching? You may not like it but coaches success is based on wins and losses while playing within the rules.

 

[JimmyinVA]

i re-watched the louisville game. i didn't realize how much holding and blocks in the back louisville's o-linemen were doing without being called. i guess having a heisman winner brings credit to the conference, so officials were just following the script. i now believe our defensive linemen did a pretty good job but got worn down in the 4th from illegal blocking.

 

[tarheel0910]

So is it too soon to judge ours?

Yes. We've only played one game that you could even look at and that is the Cal game. You're not going to be able to get a lot from the UL game because Jackson is going to do that to almost every team he plays. It's hard to get any realistic info from that. That being said, it certainly appears that the turnover in staff has not been for the better.

 

[blazers]

Then why don't we have one? There has been way too much turnover with our defensive coaches. Our defense has given up way too many points. My original question was is it lack of talent or poor coaching? You may not like it but coaches success is based on wins and losses while playing within the rules.

SCHEME (coaches):
I think it is tool early to judge the DC's scheming vs Louisville. Lamar puts us in a tight squeeze and small DEs aren't doing any favors.

I think the scheme vs Cal was probably fine, I liked the rush D and INTS, but I blame the players for that game. Our DEs aren't a huge strength, which puts pressure on the LBs and secondary. Corey Bell was bad and two young guys made youthful mistakes (Rene continuing a blitz, Dorn not being deep enough, etc).

DEVELOPMENT (coaches):
Carney has developed from a low-star linebacker into a surprisingly good third-down DE. Mikey Bart went from a low-star TE to a guy who is in the NFL (he wasn't fast, so technique and motor). Jalen looks improved though the interior opponents haven't been great.

Dorn has good technique on his tackles and his several break-ups. He looks great when he is in position. His being out of position is probably part youth, part Lamar (scheme or breakdown) and i'm guessing this improves.

TALENT (or lack of development blamed on coaches):
-Corey Bell started vs Cal but was benched vs LVille in favor of Sails. This says to me the coaches aren't in love with their secondary options. Rene came in RAW, some services thought he'd be a safety. The third CB, Sails or Bell are having trouble right now in multiple ways (plus they are skinny).

-Dominique Ross came in raw and needs to add weight before he sees PT.
-J Smith isn't very fast, good backup
-Former walk-on Holecomb looks a little less lost than last yr, but I wonder if he'd be a better strong safety.
-Not sure why Andre Smith is so much better than Cayson Collins, seems like instincts. Both were high 3*.

-Tomon Fox probably needs another yr in the weight room before starting.
-Drennon hasn't developed as much despite having the same three coaches as Bart. But his foot injury could've taken a toll. Powell is tbd.

Summary:
Secondary players are young, but they aren't rookies, so is their execution ability due to talent or coach - don't know but coaches are shuffling lineup. Coaches and player/talent are to blame for Cal. Not sure yet if we can blame coaches for Louisville.

 

[uncboy10]

So is it too soon to judge ours?

People are talking about our "failed program" after two losses. If turnover on the defensive staff is the problem then why would we rashly fire a DC, much less a head coach, after two games?

 

[Davis618]

SCHEME (coaches):
I think it is tool early to judge the DC's scheming vs Louisville. Lamar puts us in a tight squeeze and small DEs aren't doing any favors.

I think the scheme vs Cal was probably fine, I liked the rush D and INTS, but I blame the players for that game. Our DEs aren't a huge strength, which puts pressure on the LBs and secondary. Corey Bell was bad and two young guys made youthful mistakes (Rene continuing a blitz, Dorn not being deep enough, etc).

DEVELOPMENT (coaches):
Carney has developed from a low-star linebacker into a surprisingly good third-down DE. Mikey Bart went from a low-star TE to a guy who is in the NFL (he wasn't fast, so technique and motor). Jalen looks improved though the interior opponents haven't been great.

Dorn has good technique on his tackles and his several break-ups. He looks great when he is in position. His being out of position is probably part youth, part Lamar (scheme or breakdown) and i'm guessing this improves.

TALENT (or lack of development blamed on coaches):
-Corey Bell started vs Cal but was benched vs LVille in favor of Sails. This says to me the coaches aren't in love with their secondary options. Rene came in RAW, some services thought he'd be a safety. The third CB, Sails or Bell are having trouble right now in multiple ways (plus they are skinny).

-Dominique Ross came in raw and needs to add weight before he sees PT.
-J Smith isn't very fast, good backup
-Former walk-on Holecomb looks a little less lost than last yr, but I wonder if he'd be a better strong safety.
-Not sure why Andre Smith is so much better than Cayson Collins, seems like instincts. Both were high 3*.

-Tomon Fox probably needs another yr in the weight room before starting.
-Drennon hasn't developed as much despite having the same three coaches as Bart. But his foot injury could've taken a toll. Powell is tbd.

Summary:
Secondary players are young, but they aren't rookies, so is their execution ability due to talent or coach - don't know but coaches are shuffling lineup. Coaches and player/talent are to blame for Cal. Not sure yet if we can blame coaches for Louisville.

Fedora is in his sixth year. Through recruiting or hiring top notch coaches he should have developed a much better defense than this by now.

 

[blazers]

Fedora is in his sixth year. Through recruiting or hiring top notch coaches he should have developed a much better defense than this by now.

Wait, you say "top notch" coaches, I don't think you can yet state that we have a coaching problem. If it is development... well, these new coaches just got here. And it seems too early to judge scheme.

So does Fed have an inability to retain people like Warren and Trey Scott and Chizik? UNC probably couldn't pay Trey Scott what he wanted. Warren was a domino based on Chizik leaving.

So recruiting is the only part where I agree with you, Fed's D recruiting is suspect. But I give him a tiny pass cuz ncaa neg-recruiting. We know kids have spurned UNC specifically due to ncaa rumors.

I agree the DL recruiting has been bad due to not enough bodies, but who would've thunk that Drennon wouldn't develop? Bart developed well enough that he's playing for the Pats, and it isn't like he's super athletic. And DL would be different if Nazair hadn't DEVELOPED so well that he went pro early.

Secondary recruiting has been okay. Sails is still skinny, but he was highly ranked. Rene is good against the run already and might prove solid eventually. Cotman and Shaw are supposed to be good.... Shaw is already on special teams which is a good sign.

LB recruit targeting and development seems bad since we've been relying on walk-ons for so long. Cayson should be better. Sutton is Andre Smith's yr and Andre is doing really well. Dom Ross, Hopper, J Smith are only in their second yr, but not wowing yet.

 

[Raising Heel]

We have sufficient talent on defense to field a solid defensive unit, not great but solid. But we are just plain bad. Blown assignments, poor tackling, mental mistakes for penalties, all are very common in every game we play. That is poor coaching, pure and simple.

If we we were fundamentally sound(good tacklers, knew our assignments, and made few mental mistakes), I would say talent was the issue. But we aren't and it isn't.

This is pretty much where I'm at on the subject.

If the players are struggling to execute, then the coaches need to find ways to help them succeed. We have entirely too much talent to be as bad as we are in almost every statistical category.

 

[gteeitup]

This is pretty much where I'm at on the subject.

If the players are struggling to execute, then the coaches need to find ways to help them succeed. We have entirely too much talent to be as bad as we are in almost every statistical category.

yeah, i'm not buying lack of talent or athleticism...and if it's a talent/scheme fit, then the entire staff needs to be fired...that also goes for the offense...the final stamp on these kids is fedora, no?

the tampa 2 is a no-gimmick defense that gives up yards between the 20's...it's really only about tackling and keeping everything in front of you...if these dudes can't do that, then it's over, man...there's no excuse for the corners to be outclassed so far this season...i don't even care about picks as much as just being in a position to make a play...that shouldn't happen in this scheme...the 4-2-5 or 3-3-5, yeah, this team then was outmanned size and talent wise, but not now.

i still don't understand why certain dudes aren't playing.

 

[Davis618]

I heard that when Chizic arrived he told the players he was there to win championships. What happened? I not sure I'm buying the family thing. That situation was no different than when he got here.

 

[tarheel0910]

I heard that when Chizic arrived he told the players he was there to win championships. What happened? I not sure I'm buying the family thing. That situation was no different than when he got here.

From what I understand, he was upfront with Fed when he hired him and said he wouldn't stay long because of his family. I'm guessing Fed was probably thinking 3-4 years though.

 

[Raising Heel]

I not sure I'm buying the family thing.

He didn't leave to take another coaching position. Time will tell whether he does. If not, then it seems reasonable to assume he was sincere about spending more time with his family.

 

[Archer2]

People are talking about our "failed program" after two losses. If turnover on the defensive staff is the problem then why would we rashly fire a DC, much less a head coach, after two games?

Is that "the" problem, or just one of a plethora of problems facing our program? I say it's the latter.

 

[Heels Noir]

The first problem with our defense is the fact that John Papuchis has reverted back to an overly-complicated scheme which doomed Vic Koenning a few years ago. Three different signals are sent in from the sideline every play and there is obvious confusion and miscommunication among the players. Visions of 2014 all over again.

When Chiznik came in he simplified the defense, allowing players to thrive in read-and-react roles. That should be the first order of business to turn this defense around and there can be no better time for it than this Saturday against Old Dominion.

Problem number two: Our linebackers are being underutilized. They should be allowed to blitz more often, and certainly more often than the DBs. It makes no sense to repeatedly send in a cornerback or safety and leave the linebackers covering running backs in the flat or on shallow crossing routes. Cayson Collins coming off the edge has been much more effective that Patrice Rene. In fact, I believe every time we have corner blitzed we have been burned.

Against Cal we essentially ran a dime package nearly the entire game. Six DBs, only one linebacker covering the short field, four down linemen, and we were beaten senseless on big plays by an average quarterback. Anyone who thought we would see a change in strategy during halftime adjustments was sadly disappointed.

Problem number three: Our secondary needs to work on fundamentals, namely keeping the receiver between him and the quarterback. We're talking coverage skills 101, here. Over and over we see our corners and safeties chasing receivers downfield with little chance of making a play on the ball or breaking up passes. Even Miles, Stewart, and Dorn are blowing assignments. Quit trash talking the opponent and do your damn job.

 

[WoadBlue]

People are talking about our "failed program" after two losses. If turnover on the defensive staff is the problem then why would we rashly fire a DC, much less a head coach, after two games?

We wouldn't. But this is not Fedora's Year 2 or 3 or even 4 or 5. It is year 6, and what we see so far this year is a team that might have to be lucky and ver healthy to finish 6-6.

Now, if a fan is happy with a series of 6 and 7 and occasionally 8 win teams, which always lose bowls, that is what we have now. And we have that now just when VT is getting back to peak after the years of Beamer's decline and Mark Richt seems to be building Miami back to the top. We could be looking at ACC football becoming, for the foreseeable future, a league with 4 definite Top 25 programs (FSU, Clemson, Miami, VT) and with Louisville almost that set for the top of the league, and everybody else just playing endless catch up.

 

[Archer2]

We wouldn't. But this is not Fedora's Year 2 or 3 or even 4 or 5. It is year 6, and what we see so far this year is a team that might have to be lucky and ver healthy to finish 6-6.

We could be looking at ACC football becoming, for the foreseeable future, a league with 4 definite Top 25 programs (FSU, Clemson, Miami, VT) and with Louisville almost that set for the top of the league, and everybody else just playing endless catch up.

This is what I fear is about to happen.

 

[uncboy10]

We wouldn't. But this is not Fedora's Year 2 or 3 or even 4 or 5. It is year 6, and what we see so far this year is a team that might have to be lucky and ver healthy to finish 6-6.

Now, if a fan is happy with a series of 6 and 7 and occasionally 8 win teams, which always lose bowls, that is what we have now. And we have that now just when VT is getting back to peak after the years of Beamer's decline and Mark Richt seems to be building Miami back to the top. We could be looking at ACC football becoming, for the foreseeable future, a league with 4 definite Top 25 programs (FSU, Clemson, Miami, VT) and with Louisville almost that set for the top of the league, and everybody else just playing endless catch up.

We won 11 games two years ago so I'm not sure how we've had a "series" of 6 and 7 win teams. This team is extremely young on offense and will be bringing all of those guys back next year. I'm guessing we will win a lot more than six games for the next three years after 2017 is finally over.

If you think there's a better coach out there that will come to Carolina then lets hear your ideas. I'd bet there isn't anyone as good or better than Fedora who would be interested in the job.

The funny thing is that everyone on this board knew this would be a rebuilding year and that we would struggle. But now those same posters are talking about firing coaches two weeks into the season.

 

[uncboy10]

Is that "the" problem, or just one of a plethora of problems facing our program? I say it's the latter.

The biggest problem though has been the NCAA death cloud looming over the program that has prevented us from recruiting at a high level. It also takes several years to recover completely from scholarship reductions, because you have to build that depth again.

 

[tarheel0910]

If you think there's a better coach out there that will come to Carolina then lets hear your ideas. I'd bet there isn't anyone as good or better than Fedora who would be interested in the job.

I think Les Miles would come and I would consider him at least as good as Fedora. I'm not sure I would want him without a guarantee that he hires a first rate offensive coordinator and lets him do his thing. An LSU defense with at least an average offense could probably get you 9 wins a year in our division.

 

[uncboy10]

I think Les Miles would come and I would consider him at least as good as Fedora. I'm not sure I would want him without a guarantee that he hires a first rate offensive coordinator and lets him do his thing. An LSU defense with at least an average offense could probably get you 9 wins a year in our division.

Too bad he would likely never take a job as a coordinator again. A defense like that, combined with Fedora's offense would be a national championship contender pretty much every year.

 

[blazers]

I think Les Miles would come and I would consider him at least as good as Fedora. I'm not sure I would want him without a guarantee that he hires a first rate offensive coordinator and lets him do his thing. An LSU defense with at least an average offense could probably get you 9 wins a year in our division.

Too bad he would likely never take a job as a coordinator again. A defense like that, combined with Fedora's offense would be a national championship contender pretty much every year.

This sounds like you guys assume good defenses come with Les Miles - he's an offensive guy, not D. And his offense was floundering in recent yrs.

But Les Miles was famous for poor clock management and other stoopid coaching things, which people dislike about Fed.

 

[tarheel0910]

This sounds like you guys assume good defenses come with Les Miles - he's an offensive guy, not D.

He consistently fielded top notch defenses. That makes him a defensive guy in my book.

And his offense was floundering in recent yrs.

Which is why I said I would want a guarantee that he hire a top OC and let him do his thing.

But Les Miles was famous for poor clock management and other stoopid coaching things, which people dislike about Fed.

He was also famous for winning a national championship and fielding top 10 teams.

 

[Raising Heel]

Les Miles' LSU teams were built by locking down in-state talent and plucking a few from Texas or the southeast. It's a totally different football culture. UNC doesn't enjoy that kind of hegemony in recruiting.

 

[tarheel0910]

Les Miles' LSU teams were built by locking down in-state talent and plucking a few from Texas or the southeast. It's a totally different football culture. UNC doesn't enjoy that kind of hegemony in recruiting.

We have before and if the right coach came along we could do it again. I don't see that happening under Fed. He's done a good job of pulling talent out of other states though.

 

[Raising Heel]

We have before and if the right coach came along we could do it again. I don't see that happening under Fed. He's done a good job of pulling talent out of other states though.

My point was that Louisiana kids want to play for the home school.

 

[tarheel0910]

My point was that Louisiana kids want to play for the home school.

Right, my point was that with the right coach NC kids will want to play for the home school. Mack was able to lock down in state recruiting. It can be done here, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary if you can pull top talent from other states.

 

[Raising Heel]

Right, my point was that with the right coach NC kids will want to play for the home school. Mack was able to lock down in state recruiting. It can be done here, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary if you can pull top talent from other states.

These situations are not even remotely similar. LSU has historically landed over 70% of the 4 and 5-star players coming out of the state. It's a matter of the culture there, not a product of who the head coach is.

 

[tarheel0910]

These situations are not even remotely similar. LSU has historically landed over 70% of the 4 and 5-star players coming out of the state. It's a matter of the culture there, not a product of who the head coach is.

So you don't think anyone can change the culture in NC?

 

[uncboy10]

So you don't think anyone can change the culture in NC?

That culture is the byproduct of geography. The "home" team for kids who grow up in a different parts of the state could mean any one of several major universities in NC. LSU does not have that problem in the state of LA.

 

[tarheel0910]

That culture is the byproduct of geography. The "home" team for kids who grow up in a different parts of the state could mean any one of several major universities in NC. LSU does not have that problem in the state of LA.

True, but I don't think it's impossible to create a culture where NC recruits see UNC as the "home" team for football. It's been done before in both football and basketball. I think it can be done again if the right person comes along.

 

[uncboy10]

True, but I don't think it's impossible to create a culture where NC recruits see UNC as the "home" team for football. It's been done before in both football and basketball. I think it can be done again if the right person comes along.

If we can win 10+ games two years in a row after getting clear of the NCAA shenanigans then we will start to build some impressive recruiting classes again.

Getting the right DC who can build a defense to match Fed's offense would also go a long way with recruiting guys on defense.

 

[blazers]

He was also famous for winning a national championship and fielding top 10 teams.

But was that entirely due to coaching or partly to recruiting? And recruiting isn't done it a vacuum it is partly based on coaches, but largely about the program.

Nick Saban was at LSU prior to Miles and Saban also won the champs there. Miles' championship was with Nick Saban recruits.

Give Les Miles Everett Whither's recruits and he's probably going to have a tough time.