Any chance the move Marcus to PG & start Hicks?
- Thread starter strummingram
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It's a tough ask IMO. I think it's the right move... But....
We're the 5th most efficient offensive team in the country and are 3rd in conference play. So the offense has been pretty good.
I agree with Greenberg and Williams that getting Paige to the PG can keep him fresher.
The thing is our team has no natural SG and that's a critical missing part. Regardless who plays PG, the SG is going to be out of place. And for those that think Berry can just fit in as a SG because he's a decent shooter, we thought shooting would be the one transitional skill in Paige's move and it wasn't.
I would do it. But it isn't the magic fix IMO. I like Paige and he breaks down the defense a lot better than Berry. He's better in the pick and roll than Berry.
I think the alarming thing is we have 1 conference game left and still don't know:
1. Our rotation
2. Who should start between Meeks/Hicks
3. Who should be our PG
All this stuff should have been figured out a month ago.
I think it's clear to everyone Hicks should start.
We're the 5th most efficient offensive team in the country and are 3rd in conference play. So the offense has been pretty good.
I agree with Greenberg and Williams that getting Paige to the PG can keep him fresher.
The thing is our team has no natural SG and that's a critical missing part. Regardless who plays PG, the SG is going to be out of place. And for those that think Berry can just fit in as a SG because he's a decent shooter, we thought shooting would be the one transitional skill in Paige's move and it wasn't.
I would do it. But it isn't the magic fix IMO. I like Paige and he breaks down the defense a lot better than Berry. He's better in the pick and roll than Berry.
I think the alarming thing is we have 1 conference game left and still don't know:
1. Our rotation
2. Who should start between Meeks/Hicks
3. Who should be our PG
All this stuff should have been figured out a month ago.
I think it's clear to everyone Hicks should start.
Absolutely he sees the court far better than JB.
JWill and Seth Greenberg both agreed on this subject and they were speaking the truth about it.
"Marcus Paige sees plays on the floor that Joel Berry does not. " ~ Jay Williams
You have to be either blind or stubborn to deny such . .
I said it on Saturday, I'll say it again . . the Paige at shooting guard is a failed experiment. This team is so much better with Marcus at the point it truly is a night and day difference.
I'm not knocking Joel Berry, right now he is this team's most consistent 3 point shooter . . but, I want Paige at the point.
JWill and Seth Greenberg both agreed on this subject and they were speaking the truth about it.
"Marcus Paige sees plays on the floor that Joel Berry does not. " ~ Jay Williams
You have to be either blind or stubborn to deny such . .
I said it on Saturday, I'll say it again . . the Paige at shooting guard is a failed experiment. This team is so much better with Marcus at the point it truly is a night and day difference.
I'm not knocking Joel Berry, right now he is this team's most consistent 3 point shooter . . but, I want Paige at the point.
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I don't get why they both can't operate as de facto PGs. I get that only one guy can set up and run plays, but it seems like both are pretty adept at running the offense. I don't think Berry would mind if Roy said that Marcus was going to act as a point guard as well. Berry has flat out said this is Marcus's team.
Again, I know only one guy can be the PG. But it definitely should be Paige when Berry is off the floor. I think it wouldn't hurt to have Paige as PG when they are on together. I think there is a better chance of the sun not coming up tomorrow, than for Roy to make this change.
Again, I know only one guy can be the PG. But it definitely should be Paige when Berry is off the floor. I think it wouldn't hurt to have Paige as PG when they are on together. I think there is a better chance of the sun not coming up tomorrow, than for Roy to make this change.
It looked like that was how the Heesls started the 2nd half and it looked pretty good too! If there is nothing Available on the secondary break let Marcus intiate the play... In the secondary break it's either or with Paige and Berry anyway. Either one handles it in the beginning... Whoever is available for the outlet.
Yeah, I've been saying that for awhile. Some people agree and some don't, which is ok. My only issue is the people who don't aren't capable of even having the discussion. Paige understand the game better right now. He sees things better and this is important for a PG. I mean, he should though. He is a senior. It would be disturbing if he didn't to be honest. Plus, Berry is a better shooter so it isn't going to hurt us there. Berry could also keep whatever defensive assignment we needed as it wouldn't impact that.
Roy has not helped Paige's career these last 2 years.
But given that Roy is omnipotent, Im sure its for the best and none of you fools better question him or else the Radar police will call you all sorts of nasty names.
I agree 100% .. I simply do not understand the insane line up experimentation that goes on and on with no apparent goal unless it's just to get players some floor time and keep them somewhat fresher than the other teams going down the stretch .. but by doing that you sacrifice chemistry and continuity. There is no doubt, at this point in the season the best 5 are Brice,Paige,Jackson, Hicks and Berry and, even though I don't know the most about the x's and o's in basketball I do believe that this team could have been developed to where they could interchange point guards depending on match-ups and probably could have developed Justin as a point forward .. again depending on match-ups.
It appears to me another problem with this team is there lack of understanding the principle of vertical defense. The fouls committed by some of those guys (BJ/IH) by reaching and putting their hands and arms where good offensive players can draw the fouls will, and probably has, cost games already. All the really good defensive teams play defense with their feet and it's a bit surprising this team has yet to be better at this. Move your feet to where you think the offensive player has a lane, keep your arms straight up and depend on help along the baselines.
The time for experimentation and f'ing around is over .. it's time to tighten it up and get serious cause win or go home is right around the corner.
Paige at the point is not the answer and his shooting struggles are continuing. Why he continues to shoot shots 5+ feet behind the 3 line is head scratching.
I mean, there isn't an answer that is going to rocket us to 2009 level or anything. It doesn't mean it isn't worth considering. He shoots because he is confident. I agree maybe he shots too many of them but so does Berry when he is off. I have no issue with either. Those two should have the green light outside. Jackson as well at this point probably.
Why would you do that when he's getting so many dimes from the 2? Makes no sense. The advantage of him being there is he gets to make decisions off passes as opposed to having to do the work of moving the defense. Our Zone Offense is built for wing entries, BTW.
His two best entries last night did not come from the wing. They came from the top. And the reasons why some, including a few very notable experts, would like to see Marcus run point are documented here. To get Marcus going. It's simple, Marcus is not as effective as he can be playing how and where he is right now. It could not hurt this team to find out because if he doesn't get going neither will we.
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Paige took one for the team playing SG. Berry is a solid college player and a future All-ACC player. A Reggie Bullock type playing SG with Paige at the PG spot would put UNC in the drivers seat.
Roy does some strange things, but in this case he is stuck without a SG and two really good PGs.
Suggestion bring Berry off the bench and start Pinson at SG (Atleast it makes defense better). Paige can shoot, but needs to get into a groove first (usually nails shots at end of games). Berry did nothing wrong, but like Paige he needs to accept this and take one for the team.
Really think Meek's game would florish with a true SG. He does not work well in traffic and a true shooter opens the middle.
Roy does some strange things, but in this case he is stuck without a SG and two really good PGs.
Suggestion bring Berry off the bench and start Pinson at SG (Atleast it makes defense better). Paige can shoot, but needs to get into a groove first (usually nails shots at end of games). Berry did nothing wrong, but like Paige he needs to accept this and take one for the team.
Really think Meek's game would florish with a true SG. He does not work well in traffic and a true shooter opens the middle.
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Said the EXACT same thing to my wife last night during the game and I've noticed it for a few weeks now. He's clearly pressing/forcing up these longer shots... often in situations where he can probably take a dribble or two and shoot in rhythm
I'm all for Paige at PG. Everyone here knows that. I'm not for Berry on the bench though. I think you simply switch the two. For one, we need Berry for his defense but also for all the other reasons he has been so important to the team this year. All the positives he gives us he can give us from the 2. He needs to start though.
Moving paige to the PG spot to keep him fresher doesn't make any sense to me, moving him to the primary PG role to allow him to get more feel of the ball maybe does. It did seem to help him last night, not so much jump shooting when I look at 2 for 10 but he made some nice passes for assists and seemed to be more engaged in the game rather than being worried about how his shot is falling. So maybe moving him to PG a and Berry to PG B is something we need to see vs duke. I would agree that marcus defending typically smaller PGs is a better thing, not as taxing on him. Joel is a bit stronger so I can see that may work out.
Not sure how many times it has to be said, Roy would prefer to start Hicks, you can as much in his words but Hicks has to be careful with the silly fouls. Meeks played what, 13-14mins so Roy was trying but we really need at very least Brice or Hicks on the floor, I prefer them in together but don't like it at all when both of them are on the bench and fouls is limiting how much time we can have them both in.
Our rotation is solid, other than the Hicks/Meeks question and foul trouble is driving that. May sound odd but I wouldn't mind Joel James getting a few more minutes, he is a big body that picks up a lot of fouls himself but he can wear down some of the opposing bigs with his size.
Who should be our PG? WE have run a duo PG starting line up pretty much all season, yeah, that was in place well over a month ago...
Tell ya a rotation I would like to see more of, Theo at the 2 with Jackson at the 3 with Brice and Hicks. Whom ever the PG is be it marcus or Joel berry, that is a extremely long line up, one that I think we would defend better from and I think our rebounding would be much better, it would cost us some jump shooting but honestly this team jump shoots to much for a streaky jump shooting team. To achieve what we need to we have to rebound the ball better and we have to guard the 2 spot opposing jump shooters harder and our 2 key bigs have to stay on the court and out of foul trouble. That longer line up allows us to switch more screens and maybe not pick up as many silly hedge screens from our bigs.I love Jackson and Theo on the court together, we rebound much better and we defend tuff and because we rebound better we tend to be able to get out and run more off missed shots. I don't like having Berry on the bench for extended periods because that kid brings it every game and we need Marcus on the floor, but I would like to see us use that rotation more.
Notable experts? Yeah, let's fire Roy and hire Seth Greenberg or Doris Burke and see how well we do.
His best 2 entries were in transition. You do realize that 2s don't just relegate themselves to one area of the floor? He made up for a bad shooting night with good play-making. This may be the silliest meme I've seen in a long time. He was effective last night.
One more time: Marcus has freedom to take the lead anytime he chooses, and his shooting woes have zero to do with playing the 2.
Actually I think what Roy has wanted all along is for them to be duo PGs but if he is not the primary PG it is begining to look as if Marcus kinda becomes just another option. Last night it was clear, Marcus was PG A and Joel PG B and IMO Marcus did look more engaged. It is almost as if he is a fish out of water as the 2PG but is back in his element as the 1PG. maybe Marcus just needs to feel the ball more, he played much better IMO outside of the 2-10 shooting stat. We seemed to settle more in to that in the second half but I hope that does not hurt what Berry has been doing.
Marcus shooting is a problem but his shot selection has not been real good since this slump began, truthfully for most players I would have said it was concerning before his slump because he was taking a lot of very LONG treys and hit them early. I promise ya, most people not named Curry are going to slump shooting contested 40'+ jump shots and Marcus last name is not Curry. Pump fake and drive because scoring 2 beats the heck out of a missed trey.
Berry just is a player, I don;t think that kid would mind if Roy put him at the center spot as long as he gets on the court, Theo as well. The problem with the duo PG deal that Roy loves IMO is you can not have more than one head chef in Gordan Ramsey's kitchen and especially in our style of play we tend to be a better team when we are lead by a clear PG QB. I could NEVER imagine a duo PG role with Kendal Marshal for example.
Now I would suggest that IMHO Marcus has always been more of a combo rather than true PG but yeah, he does seem to need to be the PG for some reason , it is almost like I lead, you follow, or I get out of the way and I don't mean that in a negative way toward marcus. Just seems to be the way he is wired that seems odd for me.
When he hears what Seth and Jay Will said he would die before he made that switch! Gotta love em though!
Gotta love em though!gary my friend, I appreciate what you are saying, all common sense agree with you, conventional wisdom agrees with you, I held that very same position but admit, I am being swayed in to thinking that marcus for what ever reason is a fish out of water at the PG2 role. And I do NOT mean that as a down grade to the kid, just the way he seems mentally wired, as if he defines himself as THE PG and tries best he can to adapt to the PG2 role but defers much more than I would have expected unless he is the lead PG. I saw it in him last night, he played much more confident, was IMO much more engaged and didn't seem to worry as much about his misses.
It is kind of one of those things that may not make sense to me but maybe it is what it is. And if in that simple move it makes marcus feel more confident and does not negatively effect Joel and that seemed to be the case last night, then hey, why not, I mean this sports car has been missing on a cylinder for a while now and maybe that is the tune up needed? We can look at a lot of stuff and decide what we think should be done but at some point we just have to look at the human element and realize we have to get guys playing to their strengths and maybe Marcus as PG1 is a case of just that.
I do agree gary, Marcus has all along had the freedom to take over as our primary PG, it has not been as if he was on the bench but he has not done that frankly, last night, be it his decision or be it from Roy, it seemed to help him and we won a game we easily could have lost.
Who said hire them? They are experts. So unless you want to talk about whether or not Roy should be coach let's try and stay on track here. His 2 best entries last night were from the top. One in transition, one in half court. No debate there, go look at it. You do realize that 1s also don't relegate themselves as well. And as long as the entries are there, it doesn't matter where they come from. You can keep repeating that our offense is designed to run entry from the wings all you want.
Missed the meme, but Paige's career has been more effective from the point. So a lot of folks just aren't going to see it your way.
Yep, Joel has to start and log in a consistent 30+ minutes every game . .
The offense does not move better with Paige at the point. Paige didn't play the point a lot last night. When Berry and Paige are in the court either can bring the ball up regardless.
5 or 6 of Paige's assists last night were simply him being the passer in the chain of passes which led to an assist. Good ball movement.
There were 2 passes I notably remember where paige brought the ball up the court and he made a good passm. His best one was the laser to hicks down low.
That said, when Paige brings the ball up the court and what he has done in the past is the one is he almost nonchalantly brings the ball up and hunkers down at the perimeter to look for a pass to make. He doesn't usually ever penetrate or push the ball up quickly. We end up with less transition and more half court sets.
That is not a strength of ours and many people noted the last few years we were not playing UNC up tempo basketball and playing much slower half court offense basketball.
When Paige was able to bail that offense out with 3s it wasn't a total disaster, but his consistency with his 3 is gone.
Berry pushes the ball and is a threat to run the ball up the defenses back or to penetrate. This forces the defense to hurry back and not crash the boards so much on O. It tires out defenses in ways Paige's offense doesn't because Paige doesn't get the ball up the court fast enough.
Paige at the 1 would almost explicably cause us another sweet 16 flame out. It will not work or benefit us.
5 or 6 of Paige's assists last night were simply him being the passer in the chain of passes which led to an assist. Good ball movement.
There were 2 passes I notably remember where paige brought the ball up the court and he made a good passm. His best one was the laser to hicks down low.
That said, when Paige brings the ball up the court and what he has done in the past is the one is he almost nonchalantly brings the ball up and hunkers down at the perimeter to look for a pass to make. He doesn't usually ever penetrate or push the ball up quickly. We end up with less transition and more half court sets.
That is not a strength of ours and many people noted the last few years we were not playing UNC up tempo basketball and playing much slower half court offense basketball.
When Paige was able to bail that offense out with 3s it wasn't a total disaster, but his consistency with his 3 is gone.
Berry pushes the ball and is a threat to run the ball up the defenses back or to penetrate. This forces the defense to hurry back and not crash the boards so much on O. It tires out defenses in ways Paige's offense doesn't because Paige doesn't get the ball up the court fast enough.
Paige at the 1 would almost explicably cause us another sweet 16 flame out. It will not work or benefit us.
I disagree. Our inconsistent play may cause us that. Defensive rebound and defense as well. Paige pushes the ball just as well as Berry and he pushes it with the pass better than any other guard we have. He simply understands things better right now, which is important for a PG. As I said, he should understand things better than anyone on the team. It makes sense that he would. Getting Paige going is the one thing that can take this team to the next level even with other deficiencies. Letting him play more point, which is where he is the most comfortable, is at least one way that could happen. JMO
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Couldn't agree more. When Marcus was shooting so well early on, I liked the idea of him at SG, and it worked well until his shot went south. But we're not going to win it all unless he's playing well. If letting him be the primary ballhandler is what it takes to get him rolling again, I'm all for it. TBS, JOel is one of our better players and it would be foolish to remove him from the starting lineup, IMO. I'd also like to see Isaiah starting. Even with his propensity to pick up early multiple fouls, we're simply a better team with him in the lineup.
Someone should tell Roy then, because he's has been experimenting and will likely continue to do so until he finds that magical line-up and what works for this team. Yes, he usually doesn't make adjustments or tweaks this late in the year, but, its apparent to all he's not happy with what he has seen anytime in the month of February.
Biggest issues facing this team are defensive in nature. Specifically, stopping dribble penetration and defensive rebounding. We don't defend the high screen well, allowing guards to get into the gut of our defense far too often. And most of that is our bigs' inability to hedge and recover properly. And our bigs are allowing far too many offensive boards, far too many.
Marcus and JOel are by far our most effective backcourt, I think we can all agree on that. If Marcus feels more engaged being the primary ball handler, fine. We certainly need him to be fully engaged. I think most of us thought moving him to SG was the right move when he was shooting so well. Now that he's not, it makes sense to make the switch again. We certainly need him to stop forcing so many bad treys early in the clock.
As stated earlier, Marcus has had the green light to be the primary ballhandler when the situation dictated, all year long. So it wouldn't be that big of an adjustment.
But our inability to stop penetration and rebound defensively worry me a lot more.
Marcus and JOel are by far our most effective backcourt, I think we can all agree on that. If Marcus feels more engaged being the primary ball handler, fine. We certainly need him to be fully engaged. I think most of us thought moving him to SG was the right move when he was shooting so well. Now that he's not, it makes sense to make the switch again. We certainly need him to stop forcing so many bad treys early in the clock.
As stated earlier, Marcus has had the green light to be the primary ballhandler when the situation dictated, all year long. So it wouldn't be that big of an adjustment.
But our inability to stop penetration and rebound defensively worry me a lot more.
Speaking of green lights . . . I'd let Joel 'Bulldog' Berry know that anytime he is open and is feeling it to let it fly. Its an extremely rare occasion that he takes a bad shot.
My Lord, that youngster has a really sweet stroke . .
My Lord, that youngster has a really sweet stroke . .
I don't understand the clamoring for Hicks to start. There is the real possibility that if he starts he may actually get less minutes because of the fouls. Plus, it is more important how much you play IMO. I think during the last ten minutes of the game Hicks was in there for most of it (someone can correct me if this isn't the case). So Roy basically gave people what they wanted.
Likewise, which is ok. I think Berry often pushes it just to push it. I think Paige understands better when to push it to score and when it isn't really there. I really couldn't care less if a guy pushes it just to set the regular offense up. I'm not saying Berry is terrible at this either. I love Berry. He has his head up ready to go as well. I just don't think one is necessarily a whole lot better here than the other. I think Nate is actually pretty good at this as well. Almost all of Roy's PGs are or they won't play. That's cool though. I mean, I have no issues with anyone disagreeing with me. It would be kind of boring if we all felt the same way about everything.
This is my biggest concern with starting Isaiah. And I'd be willing to bet Roy has major concerns about that as well. He's averaging a foul for every six minutes of PT. I think we'd all love to see him play 28 MPG, but it's not feasible with his tendency to foul.
It was not in half court offense, we were in Secondary Break mode both times, not that would you know the difference apparently. On one sequence their guards tried to stop the ball and Marcus threaded the needle to JJ who dished to the block. Shortly thereafter we were pushing down in Secondary Break mode and Marcus happened to have the ball with JB and JJ wide and before Syracuse could get set Marcus whipped a sweet pass to Hicks who had hit the low block as the first Big down. And BTW, his best pass in actual Half Court O came from a drive-and-dish from the wing following a couple of ball reversals.
It is also a fact that once we are actually set in Zone Offense then yes, many if not most entries will come from the wing areas --- and sometimes that passer is the 2 or 3, and sometimes it's the PG following a reversal back to the side of the point/wing interchange. Same schemes we've been running since Dean was here. And because of that interchange action the 1 and 2 both occupy the "point" at various times. Marcus has a green light from Roy to shoot. He only hit one 3 last night. He took his 3s from the same areas JB and Nate and JJ did. The position he was playing had zero to do with that. But he made up for it with 8 Asissts --- and he did that while playing the 2 in our offense.
There are some great points being made on both sides of this argument. However, none of us would be talking about Marcus playing the 1 or 2 if he was hitting shots. That's what this comes down to. It's not about what position he plays. We are a transition team so the roles of our guards are very interchangeable frankly. He simply hasn't been consistent with his shot selection and ability to hit shots this year. Look at the Maryland game earlier this year. He looked like a stud. No discussion about him needing to play the 1. This is about hitting shots, not about the position he's playing and I think even he would agree with that. I love Marcus but he hasn't been effective this year at the level we need him to be. I hope that changes down the stretch but I'm not on board with slowing Joel berry down just to make Marcus feel better which I don't think is the case anyways. I think we have more to lose by tinkering with the lineup than we do with leaving it the same.
Lot of truth in this post. If his shot hadn't gone south, I doubt we'd be having this conversation. We are ranked 5th nationally in offensive efficiency. Again, our biggest issues are of a defensive nature.
This is true. Having Berry play point in transition, and then giving point duties to Marcus if we don't take a shot in transition and instead set up a half court offense could be a best of both worlds.
We were not in secondary break mode. We had all 5 guys set and we just started our half court offense. No one is debating, except you, that passes don't come from more than one spot on the floor. My point is already made where I think Marcus should be. If Marcus walked right up to you and said it to directly to your face you would tell him he is wrong so this is no surprise coming from someone like you.
You unfortunately don't possess the confidence or ability to hold conversations while disagreeing. Debate eludes you because your emotions won't let you reply without attempting to insult in order to discredit the other party. You should work on that because as far as I can tell its your worst personality trait. You may even find it helps you get your point across when you lack conversation skills.
