Any chance the move Marcus to PG & start Hicks?

[DSouthr]

I don't understand the clamoring for Hicks to start. There is the real possibility that if he starts he may actually get less minutes because of the fouls. Plus, it is more important how much you play IMO. I think during the last ten minutes of the game Hicks was in there for most of it (someone can correct me if this isn't the case). So Roy basically gave people what they wanted.

Cory, the one thing I would suggest in this reguard is Hicks seems to be to have a bench guy type of mindset rather than that of a starter. Bench guys have a trend of trying to do to much while they are in there because they don't feel like they are going to get enough PT to be able to show what they can do. They can tend to push the issue a little bit rather than settle in and understand not to defend that tight when it is really not nessessary (as in Hicks out in the open court picking up a hip check on a guard going east to west).

Maybe starting would give him more of that great, as a starter I can settle in and pick my spots rather than give the cheapy because I am trying to force the action. IDK but worth a try, clearly our starting center is not getting it done, maybe they can switch roles and switch mindsets as well?

 

[coryfly]

Cory, the one thing I would suggest in this reguard is Hicks seems to be to have a bench guy type of mindset rather than that of a starter. Bench guys have a trend of trying to do to much while they are in there because they don't feel like they are going to get enough PT to be able to show what they can do. They can tend to push the issue a little bit rather than settle in and understand not to defend that tight when it is really not nessessary (as in Hicks out in the open court picking up a hip check on a guard going east to west).

Maybe starting would give him more of that great, as a starter I can settle in and pick my spots rather than give the cheapy because I am trying to force the action. IDK but worth a try, clearly our starting center is not getting it done, maybe they can switch roles and switch mindsets as well?

Yeah, that seems reasonable. It is at least an argument that makes sense and has some thought behind it. I appreciate the POV for sure. I'm not really against it. TBH, I think it should be more of a match-up thing anyway since both guys are so different. I just know Roy seems to think it may be a bad idea because of the fouls, especially since it probably puts Brice on a center instead of a 4 at times. Like you said, it could help both guys though. Who knows?? I think at this point both changes are probably not going to happen but it gives all of us something to talk about I guess.

 

[gary-7]

We were not in secondary break mode. We had all 5 guys set and we just started our half court offense. No one is debating, except you, that passes don't come from more than one spot on the floor. My point is already made where I think Marcus should be. If Marcus walked right up to you and said it to directly to your face you would tell him he is wrong so this is no surprise coming from someone like you.

You unfortunately don't possess the confidence or ability to hold conversations while disagreeing. Debate eludes you because your emotions won't let you reply without attempting to insult in order to discredit the other party. You should work on that because as far as I can tell its your worst personality trait. You may even find it helps you get your point across when you lack conversation skills.

You're the one who attacked my position on the matter, and now you're getting all sanctimonious when you get a little push-back? Spare me. And if you are referring to the pass to Hicks on the block by Paige from the top, that in fact was part of our Secondary Break scheme. Even though they had 5 guys back, they weren't completely set and had not accounted for all our guys, who had come down court in transition spacing (as our guys are taught to do whenever possible). In fact their guards were just turning around, enabling a passing lane and Marcus spotted the gap and fired a dime to Hicks. Using that spacing and transition motion to score against a disorganized defense, even with no numerical advantage, is by definition what distinguishes a Secondary Break.

 

[Bubspub88]

If Hicks starts not sure he will be available for the last five minutes of the game

 

[UNC '92]

You're the one who attacked my position on the matter, and now you're getting all sanctimonious when you get a little push-back? Spare me. And if you are referring to the pass to Hicks on the block by Paige from the top, that in fact was part of our Secondary Break scheme. Even though they had 5 guys back, they weren't completely set and had not accounted for all our guys, who had come down court in transition spacing (as our guys are taught to do whenever possible). In fact their guards were just turning around, enabling a passing lane and Marcus spotted the gap and fired a dime to Hicks. Using that spacing and transition motion to score against a disorganized defense, even with no numerical advantage, is by definition what distinguishes a Secondary Break.

Sees that's part of your problem, your conversation skills are bad. You use the word attack to describe someone disagreeing with your position. Then you respond by attacking them rather than explain your position and its merits. Well your position has no merits, so you are left with personal attacks. A little push back? In conversation, your push back is akin to bludgeoning someone with a hammer for stepping on your foot.

You are wrong here. Again. You keep saying we were in our secondary break. We were not. There is video evidence, go look at it. Their defense had gotten back, they were out of position. It's not a secondary break and the fact that you keep saying it is either highlights your lack of understanding of the game or your desperate need to always be right. I'm thinking a little of both.

 

[HeelFan58]

I'm going to get a couple of beers and some pretzels and just enjoy this!

 

[imajericho]

The thing that bothers me is that you say (erroneously) that Paige is struggling because he moved position.

Then you say you want to move our best guards position late in the season right at the tournaments on a hunch it will make a struggling player better?

I mean, under your thinking then Berry could start struggling and Paige.

 

[toophly1124]

Uhhhh ooohhhh somebody's gonna get hit with the notorious GMAFB

 

[coryfly]

The thing that bothers me is that you say (erroneously) that Paige is struggling because he moved position.

Then you say you want to move our best guards position late in the season right at the tournaments on a hunch it will make a struggling player better?

I mean, under your thinking then Berry could start struggling and Paige.

I don't think he is struggling because he moved positions, though no one has any idea for sure why he is struggling. I simply think, based on his words, he would be more comfortable at PG. I don't think it would destroy the team or anything. You really think a sophomore Berry is going to be upset or start playing poorly? If Paige can also create from the 2 then can Berry not? Again, it is my opinion that to win it all Paige is the key. We need him back to the way he was. Again, I've said that maybe trying him at point when Nate is in is an option. See if it does make a difference.

 

[Archer2]

I don't think he is struggling because he moved positions, though no one has any idea for sure why he is struggling. I simply think, based on his words, he would be more comfortable at PG. I don't think it would destroy the team or anything. You really think a sophomore Berry is going to be upset or start playing poorly? If Paige can also create from the 2 then can Berry not? Again, it is my opinion that to win it all Paige is the key. We need him back to the way he was. Again, I've said that maybe trying him at point when Nate is in is an option. See if it does make a difference.

I agree, Cory. The cause of Marcus's struggles is all speculation. He was playing very well after the switch. For whatever reason, his shot stopped falling. I think him playing SG had very little to do with his shooting woes. It's more likely that he became the focus of opposing defenses. Then he became less selective in his shot collection which exacerbated his decline in shooting percentage, even bleeding over into his FT percentage.

Perhaps having the ball in his hands a bit more will shake him out of his slump. It won't be that big of an adjustment for JOel or the team, so it's worth a try. We need Marcus playing closer to his previous level if we're to make a deep run.

 

[imajericho]

A lot of his problem is his shot selection. Taking falling 3s and 5+ feet behind the line. Lots of instance he could dribble up a few feet and shoot it from at the arc. He isn't squaring up properly before shooting on a lot of his shots.

 

[GoNtheDistance]

Watch Marcus Paige as a soph and watch him now. His shooting woes are all about mechanics. He's not squaring up towards the basket, he is falling away and his release is much faster. The quick release is usually something you don't knock but paired with the other 2 things it's a train wreck. His old form was much more deliberate and smooth.

 

[Bubspub88]

Anybody remember the ritual from Major League to cure the cursed bat? I'll spring for the chicken

 

[gary-7]

Sees that's part of your problem, your conversation skills are bad. You use the word attack to describe someone disagreeing with your position. Then you respond by attacking them rather than explain your position and its merits. Well your position has no merits, so you are left with personal attacks. A little push back? In conversation, your push back is akin to bludgeoning someone with a hammer for stepping on your foot.

You are wrong here. Again. You keep saying we were in our secondary break. We were not. There is video evidence, go look at it. Their defense had gotten back, they were out of position. It's not a secondary break and the fact that you keep saying it is either highlights your lack of understanding of the game or your desperate need to always be right. I'm thinking a little of both.

Your rather pathetic attempts at deflection are, well.. pathetic. You're quite the amateur psychologist as well, huh?... with the key word being amateur. At least you certainly have the gift of hyperbole.

And just for the record:: The description I gave you of what constitutes a Secondary Break in the Carolina system is not mine --- it came from Dean Smith.
Oh, but what am I thinking?... apparently you know more than the guy who invented it.
Right.

 

[UNC71-00]

Your rather pathetic attempts at deflection are, well.. pathetic. You're quite the amateur psychologist as well, huh?... with the key word being amateur. At least you certainly have the gift of hyperbole.

And just for the record:: The description I gave you of what constitutes a Secondary Break in the Carolina system is not mine --- it came from Dean Smith.
Oh, but what am I thinking?... apparently you know more than the guy who invented it.
Right.

It's hard being you, isn't it Gary?

(ETA- Trolling, but you deserve it on this thread)

 

[UNC '92]

Your rather pathetic attempts at deflection are, well.. pathetic. You're quite the amateur psychologist as well, huh?... with the key word being amateur. At least you certainly have the gift of hyperbole.

And just for the record:: The description I gave you of what constitutes a Secondary Break in the Carolina system is not mine --- it came from Dean Smith.
Oh, but what am I thinking?... apparently you know more than the guy who invented it.
Right.

Oh gary, gary, gary. You are a precious young man. If it hurts you a little it's a good thing. You need to be pushed a little from your comfort zone. Believing you are correct about everything is a terrible flaw. So consider this character building for you.

You ready now, after a little sleep and a bottle of warm milk, to look at Paige's entry pass in our half court set? And shame on you little gary for name dropping in this thread. Dean didn't teach you the secondary break obviously or you would recognize when it's run. This isn't a philosophy difference between Dean and me. As much as you believe you are, you are not Dean Smith.

 

[DSouthr]

Oh gary, gary, gary. You are a precious young man. If it hurts you a little it's a good thing. You need to be pushed a little from your comfort zone. Believing you are correct about everything is a terrible flaw. So consider this character building for you.

You ready now, after a little sleep and a bottle of warm milk, to look at Paige's entry pass in our half court set? And shame on you little gary for name dropping in this thread. Dean didn't teach you the secondary break obviously or you would recognize when it's run. This isn't a philosophy difference between Dean and me. As much as you believe you are, you are not Dean Smith.

Do you actually have an opinion considering the topic of this thread or is your entire opinion geared to be a challenge to anything gary has to say and nothing more?

If you are so intent on taking this thread over and you are the expert on the secondary break, then I invite you to teach us all the secondary break and how it differes from what gary described? So that I am clear, your opinion is gary does not know how the Dean Smith secondary break is run and you do, I want to see you clearly explain your understanding of the secondary break and then I want gary to share his version of the secondary break, I want us all to be able to lay the explainations side by side and compare. With that, we will put an end to this question, isn't that true? So 92, the floor is all yours, you have the chalk board, explain away !

 

[UNC '92]

Do you actually have an opinion considering the topic of this thread or is your entire opinion geared to be a challenge to anything gary has to say and nothing more?

If you are so intent on taking this thread over and you are the expert on the secondary break, then I invite you to teach us all the secondary break and how it differes from what gary described? So that I am clear, your opinion is gary does not know how the Dean Smith secondary break is run and you do, I want to see you clearly explain your understanding of the secondary break and then I want gary to share his version of the secondary break, I want us all to be able to lay the explainations side by side and compare. With that, we will put an end to this question, isn't that true? So 92, the floor is all yours, you have the chalk board, explain away !

You sound like you are replying in a vacuum. Did you just read some of it? My position was already stated. I think Marcus should play some point and we were not in our secondary break when Marcus made his best entry of the night. No one is disagreeing over what a secondary break is, we are disagreeing if they were in it. So you see, my opinion was given. Maybe you were confused because it didn't take 18 paragraphs to get it across?

 

[DSouthr]

You sound like you are replying in a vacuum. Did you just read some of it? My position was already stated. I think Marcus should play some point and we were not in our secondary break when Marcus made his best entry of the night. No one is disagreeing over what a secondary break is, we are disagreeing if they were in it. So you see, my opinion was given. Maybe you were confused because it didn't take 18 paragraphs to get it across?

Lay out your version of our seconday break and how it applied to the situation with Marcus. Then I want gary to lay his out covering the exact same thing so the people on this board can see the side by side difference and makes their own decisions. THAT is ultimately fair and it will show very clearly who is right or wrong or if there is any clear difference in the 2 views. AGAIN, 92 the chaulk board is all yours.

 

[UNC '92]

Uh dude, go back and read what I already wrote. You aren't that lazy are you? I said already we were not in the secondary break. We were in a half court set. A secondary break usually starts off a rebound or a made basket and Is useful to get a quick bucket before the defense is set. I think we are both consistent there. Some coaches have different definitions of it, but it basically is the same. But again, that's not the argument. A definition can be pulled off of damn Google for that matter but that's not at issue here.

 

[DSouthr]

You sound like you are replying in a vacuum. Did you just read some of it? My position was already stated. I think Marcus should play some point and we were not in our secondary break when Marcus made his best entry of the night. No one is disagreeing over what a secondary break is, we are disagreeing if they were in it. So you see, my opinion was given. Maybe you were confused because it didn't take 18 paragraphs to get it across?

So you are telling me that you actually do agree with gary on how UNC runs its secondary break? I believe the exact words were "No one is disagreeing over what a secondary break is", so you are on record with that, that in that aspect you do not disagree with gary.

So as I read your words, the disagreement is you believe we were in the half court offense when Marcus slipped that pass to hicks? Have I distorted your view in any way with this last sentence? Am I correct in stating that the disagreement is that gary says we were not in our half court offense and you maintain that we were? I don't want to distort either opinion, I want crystal clarity.

Now 92, 2 things I do find interesting, first you offer what I take as a veiled snark at me due to the fact that I write my opinion in detail and would suggest to you they are not required reading. Second, try as I may, I still no not see your definition of the UNC secondary break, I do sense that for some reason you are avoiding answering that simple question. I honestly do not think gary will hesitate to lay out his understanding of our secondary break. It does leave me to ponder how much of it you really do understand, that is not a snark back at you, it is a question in my mind formed on percieved hesitation by you to answer what I would think would be a easy question. I mean, we have seen it run to perfection a few thousand times have we not?

Do you need gary to go first? If you are shy at laying out your understanding of this and need gary to go first, no problem, I will be more than glad to see if I can get him to lay his understanding of it out first?

 

[DSouthr]

It was not in half court offense, we were in Secondary Break mode both times, not that would you know the difference apparently. On one sequence their guards tried to stop the ball and Marcus threaded the needle to JJ who dished to the block. Shortly thereafter we were pushing down in Secondary Break mode and Marcus happened to have the ball with JB and JJ wide and before Syracuse could get set Marcus whipped a sweet pass to Hicks who had hit the low block as the first Big down. And BTW, his best pass in actual Half Court O came from a drive-and-dish from the wing following a couple of ball reversals.

It is also a fact that once we are actually set in Zone Offense then yes, many if not most entries will come from the wing areas --- and sometimes that passer is the 2 or 3, and sometimes it's the PG following a reversal back to the side of the point/wing interchange. Same schemes we've been running since Dean was here. And because of that interchange action the 1 and 2 both occupy the "point" at various times. Marcus has a green light from Roy to shoot. He only hit one 3 last night. He took his 3s from the same areas JB and Nate and JJ did. The position he was playing had zero to do with that. But he made up for it with 8 Asissts --- and he did that while playing the 2 in our offense.

Can some one get us some video of this sequence where gary says we were in our secondary break and 92 says we were not? I do not have the game still on DVR, so can someone refresh me with a video of it?

 

[UNC71-00]

Can some one get us some video of this sequence where gary says we were in our secondary break and 92 says we were not? I do not have the game still on DVR, so can someone refresh me with a video of it?

Here you go

 

[mikeirbyusa]

I'm going to get a couple of beers and some pretzels and just enjoy this!

Skip the beer, where's my popcorn? This is getting good.

 

[coryfly]

Again, if you think this is about the secondary break you are missing the point.

Oh, and keep rollin', rollin', rollin'!

 

[UNC '92]

Haha. Man sorry I'm late, I got people that rely on me for more than just my abundance of bball knowledge.

Anyway, ok. This won't resolve a thing but here you go. And this is not my understanding. This is just the way it is run. The point guard brings the ball up, unless he has a good ball handler ahead of him. The guard should keep the ball out of the middle after he crosses mid court so the trailers (2 and 3) have the option of running the wings. Then usually the two trailers (4 and 5) go to the weak side elbows and whoever is there first cuts and goes ball side and fills the block. And from this there are multiple options and ways it can go.

Marcus was in the middle because Hicks had already completed his cut and was getting into half court offense when the D which successfully defended him on the break, failed to cover him after they set. Paige found him.

 

[UNC '92]

And Marcus Paige should get more time at point. Still.

 

[UNC71-00]

And Marcus Paige should get more time at point. Still.

I read somewhere that Britt and JBs stats are fairly similar too.

 

[UNC '92]

I read somewhere that Britt and JBs stats are fairly similar too.

Yeah know I saw the same thing! It was per 40 minutes, but yep. They are different players though. I like what they both bring and don't advocate changing who is starting right now with the exception of Hicks.

 

[gunslingerdick]

 

[DSouthr]

Haha. Man sorry I'm late, I got people that rely on me for more than just my abundance of bball knowledge.

Anyway, ok. This won't resolve a thing but here you go. And this is not my understanding. This is just the way it is run. The point guard brings the ball up, unless he has a good ball handler ahead of him. The guard should keep the ball out of the middle after he crosses mid court so the trailers (2 and 3) have the option of running the wings. Then usually the two trailers (4 and 5) go to the weak side elbows and whoever is there first cuts and goes ball side and fills the block. And from this there are multiple options and ways it can go.

Marcus was in the middle because Hicks had already completed his cut and was getting into half court offense when the D which successfully defended him on the break, failed to cover him after they set. Paige found him.

Great, now can we have one of our super computer folks share us a clip of that?

Gary, you are on the clock !

 

[UNC '92]

Great, now can we have one of our super computer folks share us a clip of that?

Gary, you are on the clock !

I just looked at it again. They really aren't even fully committed to the secondary break on that play. After Marcus crosses half court he doesn't like what he sees so he moves to the middle and then chucks that pass. Brice never even fully went weak side before ball side. For arguments sake you could say it's just another option of the secondary break but I don't think so here. Since the defense was initially covering it Hicks left the weak side elbow and went down into the weak side block because it was open.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

I think 92 is right here. Marcus made an amazing pass, no doubt about that. Few could have made it, but he did!

 

[Steat]

Watch Marcus Paige as a soph and watch him now. His shooting woes are all about mechanics. He's not squaring up towards the basket, he is falling away and his release is much faster. The quick release is usually something you don't knock but paired with the other 2 things it's a train wreck. His old form was much more deliberate and smooth.

Post of the month.

Paige can play ANY position and if his shot selection continues he will have the same poor results. Also,what about all those crafty lay-ups he made as a sophomore that he is not making now?....Oh wait! He makes those if he was playing the point this year. Elizabeth, I'm coming to join you honey!

 

[UNC71-00]

Post of the month.

Paige can play ANY position and if his shot selection continues he will have the same poor results. Also,what about all those crafty lay-ups he made as a sophomore that he is not making now?....Oh wait! He makes those if he was playing the point this year. Elizabeth, I'm coming to join you honey!

So why is Marcus displaying poor mechanics? And when was the last time you saw him consistently put the ball on the floor and drive the basket? What has changed, other than he is no longer the 1?

 

[imajericho]

Uh dude, go back and read what I already wrote. You aren't that lazy are you? I said already we were not in the secondary break. We were in a half court set. A secondary break usually starts off a rebound or a made basket and Is useful to get a quick bucket before the defense is set. I think we are both consistent there. Some coaches have different definitions of it, but it basically is the same. But again, that's not the argument. A definition can be pulled off of damn Google for that matter but that's not at issue here.

What you described sounds like a FAST BREAK tbqh.

 

[imajericho]

So why is Marcus displaying poor mechanics? And when was the last time you saw him consistently put the ball on the floor and drive the basket? What has changed, other than he is no longer the 1?

He was the 1 last year when he had the same problems.

Why is everyone sooo revisionist.

Its not like he went from the 1 to the 2 and he dropped off the map.

He went from.the 1 to the 1 and dropped off then 1 to the 2 and continued his drop.

I mean, you could have tons more theories which make more sense based on the facts than him moving to the 2.

For example, saying Joel Berry came to campus and dogged Paige in practice and broke his confidence causing him to regress would make more sense with the facts than him moving to the 2.

Or he never recovered from his injury. Or he learned bad shot mechanics while injured.

Or he was a 1 season wonder.

Or etc etc.

Every reason I listed fits more with the stats which are facts than him moving to the 2.

Saying he moved to the 2 is changing the narrative to make an excuse.

You think they don't ever have him run the 1 in practice? Obviously he isn't steph curry from the 1 in practice or the change would have happened a long time ago.

Your position doesn't change your shooting mechanics, decisions, and ability to score on the drive.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Here you go

I've been Rick Rolled

I read somewhere that Britt and JBs stats are fairly similar too.

You sure as hell didn't read that on one of the Stats and Stuff threads. But I digress, because I too prefer Berry to Britt (but that has more to do with nightmares from last year than anything from this year). Ultimately, who cares if it was a secondary break, or a half court set?

It seems better for the team for JB to be running point in transition, and better for Marcus to do so in half-court sets. Yet the Berry should be the only one getting PG minutes crew seem to be arguing the case that Marcus made a great play in transition. Is it opposite day?

 

[coryfly]

Post of the month.

Paige can play ANY position and if his shot selection continues he will have the same poor results. Also,what about all those crafty lay-ups he made as a sophomore that he is not making now?....Oh wait! He makes those if he was playing the point this year. Elizabeth, I'm coming to join you honey!

I get that. However, you guys are ignoring the only factor that matters, which is how it impacts Paige according to the actual person who is playing, which is Paige. It doesn't really matter what any of us think in terms of where he would feel most comfortable playing. If he is more comfortable at the point it doesn't mean he is unwilling or can't succeed at the two. It does mean it is reasonable to think being more comfortable could help him though. It may not. I think everyone has acknowledged that. It also may not be worth it anyway. Thinking there is no chance it could help is not reasonable though.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Or he never recovered from his injury.

Yes, I think this is the reason why he showed regression last year, while he was still playing PG.

And if that's true, you can't include his Junior year stats in the comparison to show a gradual drop off from Sophomore to Senior year. And without his Junior year, his Sophomore stats as a 1 show a large dropoff to his Senior stats as a 2.

While I don't think his dropoff is strictly due to the position change, the fact that you've (repeatedly, over and over and over again) said it's impossible that the position change has had even the slightest effect, is a bit over the top, IMO.