Garrison Brooks...

[Archer2]

You can't teach hands, like height you have it or you don't. Manley has great hands and he has size. And he has at least average athleticism, if not above average. The rest can be taught. Most of the same guys thought Luke would never be able to compete at the ACC level and he was named MOP of the regional. Have some faith in the staff.

 

[Heeelz46]

You can't teach hands, like height you have it or you don't. Manley has great hands and he has size. And he has at least average athleticism, if not above average. The rest can be taught. Most of the same guys thought Luke would never be able to compete at the ACC level and he was named MOP of the regional. Have some faith in the staff.

I get your point about Luke, but hes only one example here at UNC under Roy of a guy being very low rated and contributing at that level. And Even luke was ranked way ahead of any of the 3 of platek, huff, and manley. So while its great to be optimistic and it certainly will be less urgent since we just won a title, the reality is on the whole guys ranked where these 3 are dont do much at unc.

And rarely do we have 3 of them all in one class and depending upon what happens with Knox and Bradely and Berry, we may need them to contribute way sooner than they should have to.

 

[truetarheelraider0806]

Rivals rating and stats. I'll consider the 2012 team a championship caliber team.

Watts 3* 2009 - not a regular - under a pt/game 2012 - 7min, 1pt and 1rb a game
Miller 2* 2005 - not a regular - 1pt/gm
Simmons 3* 2012 - not a regular - under a pt/game
Britt 4* - Was in the 50-60 range when he committed, ended up 90. NA
White 3* - 2012 1pt/1ast a game 2017 - not a regular

So it doesn't appear that any of these 3*'s made much of a contribution to championship caliber teams . Outside of White who was thrown into the fire in 2012 I'd say it was close to zero. That's not to say they didn't contribute at all or that I'm degrading their Tarheel careers in any way. Just giving the facts as they relate to your post.

CC

Thanks for clarifying. Touche.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Update: Brooks is sayng the staff has been in contact.

When can we expect him to commit?

Correct me if I'm wrong but we have scholarship room for him AND Knox even if everybody but Justin returns. Is that right?

 

[truetarheelraider0806]

Yes Justin declaring guarantees it unless our coach gives a walk on like shea rush a full ride

 

[HeelFan58]

The poaster said we didn't have kids who were three stars or less contribute the FACTS don't lie. WE DID indeed have multiple players rated fringe 4 3 or lower stars contribute and significantly in some cases to teams that were full of talent and title contenders. We can disagree but that's the truth ; Justin watts, Wes Miller, Jackson Simmons, Nate britt, and Stillman White were all 3 stars or less. Maybe your the one who doesn't get facts right, because ALL the guys I just mentioned contributed on championship caliber teams.

Based on your criteria , everybody on the team contributes.If you call scoring 2-3 points a game contributing then ok. I am assuming that based on this if Manley and Huffman (and maybe Brooks) average 2-3 points then that will be the kind of recruit that you are happy with. I mean every kid on the team makes some kind of contribution.

 

[HeelFan58]

This is a myth. Your odds don't change at all based on who won last time. You have the same odds independent of previous odds.

LOL. Let me make it simpler for you guys then. I can dagum well guarantee you that John Collins being a 3* and going 1st round has absolutely 0 effect on any other player doing the same.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Rivals rating and stats. I'll consider the 2012 team a championship caliber team.

Watts 3* 2009 - not a regular - under a pt/game 2012 - 7min, 1pt and 1rb a game
Miller 2* 2005 - not a regular - 1pt/gm
Simmons 3* 2012 - not a regular - under a pt/game
Britt 4* - Was in the 50-60 range when he committed, ended up 90. NA
White 3* - 2012 1pt/1ast a game 2017 - not a regular

So it doesn't appear that any of these 3*'s made much of a contribution to championship caliber teams . Outside of White who was thrown into the fire in 2012 I'd say it was close to zero. That's not to say they didn't contribute at all or that I'm degrading their Tarheel careers in any way. Just giving the facts as they relate to your post.

CC

To poast just their averages doesn't tell the whole story. I can't remember every game but how do we know that Miller, although he averaged just 1 ppg, didn't hit a timely 3 that gave us a win at some point? Just because they were bit players on those championship level teams doesn't mean they didn't make a huge contribution.

I get your point about Luke, but hes only one example here at UNC under Roy of a guy being very low rated and contributing at that level. And Even luke was ranked way ahead of any of the 3 of platek, huff, and manley. So while its great to be optimistic and it certainly will be less urgent since we just won a title, the reality is on the whole guys ranked where these 3 are dont do much at unc.

And rarely do we have 3 of them all in one class and depending upon what happens with Knox and Bradely and Berry, we may need them to contribute way sooner than they should have to.

But 3 star guys under Roy have never been counted on to be more than what they were. Maybe since we're counting on them for more, Roy and the staff will make it a priority to coach them up to a point where they are significant contributors. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. The recruiting landscape and the college basketball landscape has changed dramatically over the past 10 years. Maybe Roy thinks 3rd year 3 stars are just as good as 1st year 5 stars.

I just don't get why the default thinking is always gloom and doom. Why can't the default thinking be optimism? It's not like any of us can do anything about it anyway. So why not just choose to think that because Roy is better than everyone else, the laws of averages and unwritten rules of college basketball don't apply?

 

[RP12]

LOL. Let me make it simpler for you guys then. I can dagum well guarantee you that John Collins being a 3* and going 1st round has absolutely 0 effect on any other player doing the same.

Exactly right. It doesn't make it any MORE likely or any LESS likely, which is what I thought you implied.

 

[dadika13]

Update: Brooks is sayng the staff has been in contact.

He'll be a Tar Heel.

 

[HeelFan58]

The lottery is a gamble, guys who eat/sleep in the gym and weight room will "always" see an improvement.

Really dumb analogy.

No they will not "always" see improvement. I think most talent is genetic , can it be refined and tweaked is the only question. Guys like Collins often lack the measurables Ex: Collins has a below average wing span and everybody loves length. The other main issue is some guys are just late bloomers and don't hit their stride in HS. I hope one of our guys falls in this category.

 

[FlaTarHeel]

LOL. Let me make it simpler for you guys then. I can dagum well guarantee you that John Collins being a 3* and going 1st round has absolutely 0 effect on any other player doing the same.

And neither does my neighbor winning the lottery.

 

[HeelFan58]

And neither does my neighbor winning the lottery.

It still won't happen.

 

[Archer2]

We should have faith in our staff, they've demonstrated amply that they have earned it. Faith not only in a recruits character to represent our university with class, but also faith in their athletic ability to play at the highest collegiate level and their work ethic to fulfill that potential.

Some of you are just cray cray. Of course, we are going to take a step backwards next year, perhaps a big step. But we just won a title with an upperclassmen dominated squad which is going to rightfully undergo a big turnover in personnel. What the hell do you expect, for crying out loud?

But I know that we will field a competitive team next year, one composed of good character guys who want to be in school and who want to learn from the master. I'm content with that. It is not our birthright to be in contention for the national title every freakin' year. Our fans are so spoiled by the last 5 decades of success that I think they take that for granted. They shouldn't, but so many do.

When Roy leaves, there is going to be a harsh awakening for many of our fans. And perhaps they need it. I thought the Doherty years would suffice to teach them a valuable lesson, but it seems they didn't learn a thing.

 

[RoseHeel]

We should have faith in our staff, they've demonstrated amply that they have earned it. Faith not only in a recruits character to represent our university with class, but also faith in their athletic ability to play at the highest collegiate level and their work ethic to fulfill that potential.

Some of you are just cray cray. Of course, we are going to take a step backwards next year, perhaps a big step. But we just won a title with an upperclassmen dominated squad which is going to rightfully undergo a big turnover in personnel. What the hell do you expect, for crying out loud?

But I know that we will field a competitive team next year, one composed of good character guys who want to be in school and who want to learn from the master. I'm content with that. It is not our birthright to be in contention for the national title every freakin' year. Our fans are so spoiled by the last 5 decades of success that I think they take that for granted. They shouldn't, but so many do.

When Roy leaves, there is going to be a harsh awakening for many of our fans. And perhaps they need it. I thought the Doherty years would suffice to teach them a valuable lesson, but it seems they didn't learn a thing.

This title certainly gave me an even bigger appreciation for Roy. The fact that we have a section of our fanbase that's still whining about recruiting less than a month after a title is pretty sad.

Already have a solid foundation for both 2018 and 2019. Some folks will just never be pleased.

 

[Archer2]

Based on your criteria , everybody on the team contributes.If you call scoring 2-3 points a game contributing then ok. I am assuming that based on this if Manley and Huffman (and maybe Brooks) average 2-3 points then that will be the kind of recruit that you are happy with. I mean every kid on the team makes some kind of contribution.

58, you're better than this. We' re saying have a little faith in the staff. We all want to sign 5* players but the fact of the matter is that UNC and OAD's aren't normally used in the same sentence, and I'm fine with that. Give me a 3 year 4* over a one year wonder every time. The last two years' team have epitomized that. This talk of rescinding 5* Felton's scholarship to look for more 3* recruits is hyperbole at it's worst.

We will struggle next year, even if Joel and Tony return. Period. If they don't, we will struggle even more. So freakin" what?! We just had BTB title appearances and won our 6th title. Relax and enjoy it a little before stressing over next year.

 

[gary-7]

58, you're better than this. We' re saying have a little faith in the staff. We all want to sign 5* players but the fact of the matter is that UNC and OAD's aren't normally used in the same sentence, and I'm fine with that. Give me a 3 year 4* over a one year wonder every time. The last two years' team have epitomized that. This talk of rescinding 5* Felton's scholarship to look for more 3* recruits is hyperbole at it's worst.

We will struggle next year, even if Joel and Tony return. Period. If they don't, we will struggle even more. So freakin" what?! We just had BTB title appearances and won our 6th title. Relax and enjoy it a little before stressing over next year.

Sorry Arch, but if JB and Tony return we will anything BUT struggle.

 

[Archer2]

Sorry Arch, but if JB and Tony return we will anything BUT atruggle.

Sorry Gary, but I disagree. We will struggle to replace the production of Kennedy, Isaiah, Nate, and JJ. There is little doubt about that. Even if Joel and Tony return, I see us in a dogfight to finish in the top 4 in the conference next year. If Tony and Joel return and play at elite level, we have a chance to win the ACC. But Huffman will have to produce from day one and Theo and Luke both step up their games.

 

[FlaTarHeel]

We should have faith in our staff, they've demonstrated amply that they have earned it. Faith not only in a recruits character to represent our university with class,

But I know that we will field a competitive team next year, one composed of good character guys

When Roy leaves.

1. I welcome these complainers to join dook basketball. They get the highest level recruits to their liking, but they also get the "other" stuff that goes with it. I really wish some of these "fans" would switch schools.

2. Character matters to people like you and I, and it surely matter to the boss himself.

3, Oh my.....

 

[FlaTarHeel]

Sorry Gary, but I disagree. We will struggle to replace the production of Kennedy, Isaiah, Nate, and JJ. There is little doubt about that. Even if Joel and Tony return, I see us in a dogfight to finish in the top 4 in the conference next year. If Tony and Joel return and play at elite level, we have a chance to win the ACC. But Huffman will have to produce from day one and Theo and Luke both step up their games.

You mean like this season?

JJ, JB, KM, Hicks at times, Theo when healthy, all stepped up their games.
The numbers from last year to this year proves it.

 

[Heeelz46]

Yeah if everyone stays and we get knox we will be very dangerous again. The athleticism in the backourt w jalek added in too would be crazy.

 

[Canadian Heel]

With JB TB and Knox we could repeat. Of course health steps from Kenny and Seventh would be necessary.

 

[Archer2]

You mean like this season?

JJ, JB, KM, Hicks at times, Theo when healthy, all stepped up their games.
The numbers from last year to this year proves it.

No need to remind you that at minimum Kennedy, Isaiah, Nate, nor JJ will be on next season's team. If you don't agree that losing those four alone would be huge, I don't know what to say to you.

 

[gary-7]

Sorry Gary, but I disagree. We will struggle to replace the production of Kennedy, Isaiah, Nate, and JJ. There is little doubt about that. Even if Joel and Tony return, I see us in a dogfight to finish in the top 4 in the conference next year. If Tony and Joel return and play at elite level, we have a chance to win the ACC. But Huffman will have to produce from day one and Theo and Luke both step up their games.

Trust me, my brother, you would have nothing to worry about.

JB would be the best player in the conference and easily the best PG, and Jalek coming ideally means no more reliance on 7th (praise the Lord) to play the 1, in that hopefully he would move off the ball and join KW, Theo, BRob and Platek in the 2/3 rotation. A year-older Tony and Luke will make a strong front-court tandem, augmented by Luke's stretch ability, giving Manley and Huffman (and maybe Brooks) the luxury of competing to contribute off the bench (and this is all with no Knox). So struggle? Tell me exactly whom we would struggle against? You've seen the attrition around the league.

 

[gary-7]

No need to remind you that at minimum Kennedy, Isaiah, Nate, nor JJ will be on next season's team. If you don't agree that losing those four alone would be huge, I don't know what to say to you.

See my response above. Players graduate and leave. It happens. Some thought we couldn't go back to the FF without Brice and Marcus. I just laughed at that absurd notion. When you develop players and don't rely on OADs you have a chance to still be pretty doggone good even with normal attrition.

Now, if JB and/or Tony leaves as well? That's a different ballgame.

 

[Ozheelfan]

This is a topic I can sink my teeth into! But first, Arch, thanks for longish post a few back, summed up my thoughts.

So, will they struggle?

IF Joel and Tony both return, I reckon The Heels are a legit ACC contender, NCAA team who could go on a deep run with the right bounce or two.

IF Joel returns and Tony doesn't it'll be ugly up front and we'll likely see a lot of small-ball.

IF Joel goes and Tony returns there'll be stability up front (albeit less experienced) but a LOT of questions in the backcourt.

IF both go....: yeah, it'll be like 2005-06 or maybe even tougher. However, that was a great team to cheer for - quality people and next years group could be the same.

Finally, the ultimate Florida fantasy: Joel and Tony come back and Knox jumps on board..... we could be watching hoops again in April once more!

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

No need to remind you that at minimum Kennedy, Isaiah, Nate, nor JJ will be on next season's team. If you don't agree that losing those four alone would be huge, I don't know what to say to you.

Agreed that we're losing a lot. Losing Kennedy, Isaiah, and JJ hurts us, losing Nate helps us. I'm not sure that the benefits from recruits coming in, everyone that stays getting a year older, and Nate leaving can make up for the loss of KM, IH, and JJ.

 

[imajericho]

Latest prediction for brooks is smu

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Tell me exactly whom we would struggle against? You've seen the attrition around the league.

Good point. At a glance, we could be fighting Miami, Louisville and Duke for league honors. Maybe Va Tech sneaks in.

Miami may only lose Reed, and they have the 3rd best recruiting class in the ACC.

Three of Pitino's guys are testing the waters, but without agents. If they return, it looks like Louisville only loses Mathiang. And they have the 2nd best recruiting class in the conference.

Duke should be fine - especially if Bolden and Allen return and they add another top player or 2. But recently things have been less wonderful than expected. So who knows?

Other high finishers in the ACC don't look nearly as good - unless they have some redshirts or transfers who aren't showing up on the charts. Virginia, FSU and Notre Dame all lose more than they are bringing in. Syracuse could struggle to stay out of the cellar.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

As for Brooks, according to 247's class calculator, if we add Brooks, we move up from having the 6th best class in the ACC to 4th best (passing FSU and Va Tech, but still behind Duke, Louisville and Miami).

If we add Knox but not Brooks, we are in 3rd place (a virtual tie with Miami).

If we add Knox and Brooks, we move into 1st in the ACC. Whether we stay there depends on whether Duke gets anyone else, which seems likely.

 

[Archer2]

I'd like to think Joel and Tony will be back. If we were to add Knox to our recruiting class, we could be very good once again. I don't think we land Knox unless Joel stays. But regardless, I'll have a lot more patience with next year's team, simply because of the loss of so much senior leadership.

BTB title game appearances and a title are worth going through a couple of rebuilding years, IMO. Personally, I'm still on cloud nine after winning our 6th title, and will be for quite a while.

 

[gauchoheel]

I'd like to think Joel and Tony will be back. If we were to add Knox to our recruiting class, we could be very good once again. I don't think we land Knox unless Joel stays. But regardless, I'll have a lot more patience with next year's team, simply because of the loss of so much senior leadership.

BTB title game appearances and a title are worth going through a couple of rebuilding years, IMO. Personally, I'm still on cloud nine after winning our 6th title, and will be for quite a while.

It doesn't really make sense though that Knox would be okay with a freshman Duval at PG, but not a freshman Jalek at PG, does it? I can't imagine there is that much difference between them.

 

[CanuckChuck]

To poast just their averages doesn't tell the whole story. I can't remember every game but how do we know that Miller, although he averaged just 1 ppg, didn't hit a timely 3 that gave us a win at some point? Just because they were bit players on those championship level teams doesn't mean they didn't make a huge contribution.

Without information on every single game we don't but since he was not a regular my best guess is he didn't play in a lot of games where he had the chance to make a huge contribution. Add to that the flip-side, it's just as likely he may have missed a shot that cost us a win.

CC

 

[Archer2]

LOL. Let me make it simpler for you guys then. I can dagum well guarantee you that John Collins being a 3* and going 1st round has absolutely 0 effect on any other player doing the same.

But we're not talking about these 3*'s going first round in the draft, we're talking about them being good college players. I have faith that they can be, some don't. But then, I have faith in our staff's ability to develop players. Again, some don't.

 

[RP12]

It doesn't really make sense though that Knox would be okay with a freshman Duval at PG, but not a freshman Jalek at PG, does it? I can't imagine there is that much difference between them.

It's a good point. I imagine the biggest difference is how key the PG has been under Roy, whereas K's teams have played more iso and drive & dish than system offense in recent years when they haven't had the best PGs.

 

[FlaTarHeel]

No need to remind you that at minimum Kennedy, Isaiah, Nate, nor JJ will be on next season's team. If you don't agree that losing those four alone would be huge, I don't know what to say to you.

I understand everything you are saying, but maybe you didn't understand me.
I believe in the "next man up" theory.

The group I already mentioned(JJ,JB,KM,Hicks) stepped in and got it done.
Losing that group and Nate will be huge, but so was losing MP and Brice. The "next men up" will have to get it done again and I think they will. These guys were recruited for a reason.

The key is JB and TB staying in school, if that happens we are going to be a "problem" for the rest of America again.

1. JB will have to step up to replace the 20/pts/gm we lose with JJ. I see about 17pts/gm.
2. TB should be able to replace Meeks 14/10, and protect the rim a little better.
3. Theo, Maye, Huffman can give us what we got from Hicks.
4. Expect a big soph jump from BRob, and Seventh.
5. Kenny and Felton replaces Nate with ease.

I'm very excited about that team, but if JB and TB leave all bets are off.

 

[HeelFan58]

58, you're better than this. We' re saying have a little faith in the staff. We all want to sign 5* players but the fact of the matter is that UNC and OAD's aren't normally used in the same sentence, and I'm fine with that. Give me a 3 year 4* over a one year wonder every time. The last two years' team have epitomized that. This talk of rescinding 5* Felton's scholarship to look for more 3* recruits is hyperbole at it's worst.

We will struggle next year, even if Joel and Tony return. Period. If they don't, we will struggle even more. So freakin" what?! We just had BTB title appearances and won our 6th title. Relax and enjoy it a little before stressing over next year.

I personally don't think we will struggle if Tony and Joel return. I think we will be top 10. Who said anything about rescinding Felton's scholly? I agree on the 3 year 4*'s vs. a OAD 5* but prefer these 4's be in the 27-60 range. You have to admit UNC is in unchartered waters taking guys ranked outside of the top 100.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

There are 351 teams. So probably 3500+ players. Each recruiting class seems to have 130-135 4 and 5 star players. Or roughly 530 over 4 years.

Even if all those 4 and 5 star players stay 4 years, that means 85% or more of college players at any given moment are 3 star players or lower. Since a chunk of those 4 and 5 star players leave at least a little early, that percentage of 3 star or lower players may be closer to 90%.

So, on average, each team has ONE 4 star or 5 star player.

Yet even that may be an exaggeration. If you look at this year's recruiting class, the top 25 recruiting classes have snapped up half of the 4s and 5s. And nearly all of those teams are recognized blue-bloods. So the rich get most of them.

 

[CanuckChuck]

I understand everything you are saying, but maybe you didn't understand me.
I believe in the "next man up" theory.

The group I already mentioned(JJ,JB,KM,Hicks) stepped in and got it done.
Losing that group and Nate will be huge, but so was losing MP and Brice. The "next men up" will have to get it done again and I think they will. These guys were recruited for a reason.

The key is JB and TB staying in school, if that happens we are going to be a "problem" for the rest of America again.

1. JB will have to step up to replace the 20/pts/gm we lose with JJ. I see about 17pts/gm.
2. TB should be able to replace Meeks 14/10, and protect the rim a little better.
3. Theo, Maye, Huffman can give us what we got from Hicks.
4. Expect a big soph jump from BRob, and Seventh.
5. Kenny and Felton replaces Nate with ease.

I'm very excited about that team, but if JB and TB leave all bets are off.

1. Since JB would need avg ~ 34pts/game to make up for JJ I don't see that happening. JB will be better but we are going to need those ~15pts from somewhere
2. I'd say TB's floor will be around 14/10. That means Manley needs to be a 5/5 player off the bench.
3. Theo is gonna need a big Senior breakout. How high is the ceiling, er, roof on Maye? What will be get from Huff?
4. Expect or hope for?
5. I liked Kenny's improvement this season. Really sucks that he got hurt. He and Felton really need to have a good year and give us most of JJ's and Nate's production.

CC

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

1. Since JB would need avg ~ 34pts/game to make up for JJ I don't see that happening. JB will be better but we are going to need those ~15pts from somewhere
2. I'd say TB's floor will be around 14/10. That means Manley needs to be a 5/5 player off the bench.
3. Theo is gonna need a big Senior breakout. How high is the ceiling, er, roof on Maye? What will be get from Huff?
4. Expect or hope for?
5. I liked Kenny's improvement this season. Really sucks that he got hurt. He and Felton really need to have a good year and give us most of JJ's and Nate's production.

CC

JJ's points need to be made up from somewhere. The main source would presumably be Theo. Can Theo increase his minutes by a third and also triple his scoring? That's what he'll need to do to replace Justin. The minutes part he can probably handle if he is really finally healthy. The points part sounds like a pipe dream.

So someone else will need to help replace JJ's points.

Tony, Luke and the freshman bigs will have their work cut out making up the points and rebounds of Kennedy and Isaiah. I wouldn't expect them to also contribute to JJ's share.

So that means it's down to our guards and other wings. A few points might come from Berry, but it will be mainly Kenny-Jalek-7th-Brandon-Andrew. Note that those guys will also be called upon to replace Nate's production, not just most of JJ's scoring.

I figure 1 or 2 of those guys will step up. But who?

Assuming we don't land Knox, the guy we may need to step up most is Brandon. With Theo playing some of his minutes at PF, Brandon could easily double his minutes next season (to 15-20 or more). Some muscle to keep from being pushed around and a big jump in 3-pt shooting and he could be that guy.

Kenny's shooting improved last year. He needs to improve a bit more. But mainly he needs to shoot more and with more confidence.

My guess is that we will be a somewhat lower-scoring team next year. Then again, that's what I expected last year, too, after losing Brice and Marcus - but we were actually 1.6 points better.