Hubert Davis
- Thread starter GoNtheDistance
- Start date
It’s not that he can’t, it’s that he won’t. I don’t think Hubert wants to coach anywhere but UNC.
I have some foundational questions about Hubert and his overall logic in putting together a staff. Clearly being a UNC guy was the most important thing to him. I understand that.
My main question is if you want to implement a new type of system that revolves around some iteration of small ball and you yourself have 0 coaching experience with that other than one season (where Roy started PJ Hairston over Desmond Hubert midway through the season), shouldn’t your staff include former coaches that were part of staffs that played that style of basketball? No one on UNC’s staff that I know of had any college success as a coach with that.
It would be like the Pittsburgh Steelers deciding they’re going to run the triple option offense but their only requirement is hiring ex Steeler players. It just logically makes no sense.
And I don’t necessarily have a problem with playing small or 5-out. Teams have won National Championships playing that style. I know people will disagree with me but one style vs UNC’s traditional system isn’t superior or inferior. It’s about how it’s coached and executed and the talent level and coach-ability of your players.
I’m personally out on Hubert. I don’t think he offers any advantage on game day and in fact I think he starts every game at a disadvantage against a coach that understands analytics because I don’t think Hubert understands them. He’s already said publicly he doesn’t care about them and I think that’s a disadvantage today.
If he comes back though, it must be with a better coaching staff that reflects the kind of basketball he wants to play. If it’s all ex UNC guys like now, might as well play 2 bigs and recruit to that. If he wants to play a more modern spread system, he must fill his staff with those that understands that system. Hubert clearly doesn’t to the fullest and there’s no evidence that his staff understands it judging from their backgrounds.
Just a lot of weird things that don’t make logical sense to me. And that’s beyond just the wins and losses.
There is not any consistency with rosters from year to year now. I think many of us long for James Worthy as a junior, chanting one more year, knowing Sam Perkins is behind, and the freshman named Jordan behind him, plus 3 other McDonald's all American guys. Picking from the next crop of AA's to reload.
Not the present situation in basketball, you can 1 and done like Duke, but if you are not a fan of that then I am hesitant to the why inconsistent is the concern. if it's not that all in on top talent for one year, then it is a revolving door mentality at the UNC expectations level if you want the old days. Not a fan of that.
He has been here 3 and a half years, played in the National title game, was a coach of the year, 1 seed, sweet 16 loss. Total bust of a year in between, struggle in 4th, with a VERY flawed roster. I think he gets year 5. Wilson and the portal next year, as today's year to year roster system is set up will be key.
If a Jay Wright is interested, ok, if not, Coach K and Dean would of been run off by year 4, if not before, as most wanted at the time. We are a spoiled fan base, and the playing field has changed. It ain't the same landscape.
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I don't really disagree with anything that you said, but first off UNC and Duke wasn't what we know now when K and Dean was hired to their respective jobs, just like Kansas now if the same Kansas that it was when Roy was hired, so giving them extra time to develop into head coaches that they became the rope was a little longer.
When Dean was hired Carolina had only won 2 national championship at that time '57 and the other in '24 when they was still shooting at peach baskets, so with Dean the standard wasn't really set for Dean to keep going, but yet Dean set the standard. And the same with K.
When K was hired he had 5 years of head coaching experience and was coming to a school that had never won a national championship.
The roster is flawed but he is ultimately responsible for the roster.
We are not a spoiled fan base we are a proud fan base, that expect better that we have gotten in the last few years.
I have never understood why we want to brag about our accomplishments and how offen and how well we do basketball until we don't and we don't like it and then we have to be spoiled.
Someone on here earlier this week and something to the effect a moral victory because we lead Florida and Kansas late, come on really.
Let's leave that filling up the moral victories trophy cabinet crap up to MooU and South Carolina Football.
North Carolina show never be so bad that a home loss to Stanford in January is pretty much sealing our post season fate because we got Wake on the road coming up 2 Pitt games a Clemson game and 2 Dook games and we know all those games cpuld very well be losses.
I hear ya, good points, disagree slightly on a few things.
The prior 4 years to Hubert coming in were far worse than the prior 4 years to Dean coming in as coach.
UNC was 77 -23 in those last 4 years under Maguire, a 77% winning clip. The year before that was the undefeated 32 -0 national championship year. They were elite level.
UNC was struggling in Roy's last 4 years. 87 - 48, a 64% winning clip, struggling.
Both did have to deal with a massively different landscape on recruiting to Chapel Hill, albeit for different reasons though.
Kansas was at National title or bust expectations level already when Roy arrived, the dip there was not expected either, which opened the door for Roy.
The worry for me is being like the Indiana fan base, and administration. They too love to brag about past accomplishments, but seem to have no grasp of the present, patience is almost zero, it earned them decades of mediocrity instead of the quick return to glory they felt change would bring in my opinion. They run a revolving door of coaches every 4 years or so, that is a recipe for failure at every level. They had Calvin Sampson, and ran him out. Still in revolving door mode as we speak.
I do agree, the past 4 years are not going to cut it here, seat is rightfully hot, but they were actually better then the previous 4 years of UNC basketball he came into, it was not the juggernaut of the past, not a "what just happened, we've never struggled in 4 years like this". I do agree it's make or break time, patience is not a luxury at UNC. I think the worry about next year's roster is very real as well. Trying times for sure, I'm just not quite as quick to cut bait, but it is getting awfully close. If a Jay Wright or that type of candidate is on board, it's a different story for me, but not convinced that type option is on the table for next year.
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i should clarify…the forty minutes of hell arkansas ran under nolan was a system implemented and was their thing…my point was just try it.
I have zero inside info but surely there is a lot of grumbling going on inside the program leadership. Obviously there are serious issues and many here blame specific problems, NIL, in game coaching, HD no HC experience, DEI, no big man, transfer portal flops... Honestly people get so offended and butt hurt by DEI discussions for some reason, these are the folks claiming racism and unable to continue an honest discussion on the topic. You could actually state a good case this could have been a DEI hire but in my opinion this was more of an internal/inside the family hire. I do think at some level HD being black played a role given the landscape of the university and the times we live. However at the end of the day, this hire was about inside the family, RW using his weight and the administration taking a chance on a great guy who knows the sport but has no HC experience. We are now seeing the consequences of such a gamble and so far, within the scope of work, it's not really paying off. A lot of the problems I mention above, the coaching staff is directly and indirectly related to each of them. I know I'm typing the obvious here and I haven't added a lot of value to this thread but I suspect HD is on the hot seat internally (been on the hot seat with fanbase) and will probably be given another year. His buyout decreases and next year HD will have time to attempt to correct some of the things that are obviously broken. Could he actually right the ship with more time? Does anyone think the program will keep him through his contract? Also serious question: I typed a name earlier in this thread, T. J. Otzelberger. I know it sounds like a real stretch but does it seem reasonable to pursue him in the off season? UNC is a big time gig, I know there would be other candidates but honestly all the names we throw around on this board are probably not much better then HD. K. Sampson is an interesting candidate, could he at least right the ship in the short term? Could finding the right candidate speed up a HC change? I agree with many here, from what we know now, this inside hiring business is not going to get it done.
In the portal era it's hard to argue a coach needs 5 years to show what he can do. Furthermore, does anyone want to argue that we've seen improvements this year vs year 1 in Xs & Os? How about roster usage? Maybe they've used the bench a little more this year but certainly more from desperation than development. Hubert's most glaring weaknesses are things he could put into place quickly, and the roster component is on him as well. If his plan is to get 3-5 lottery picks to play like pros in an awful "pro style offense" that doesn't seem to be working out. The truth is all 4 of his teams have started slowly, with last year's team certainly improving most quickly but that roster is going to be an anomaly in terms of experience and leadership. Without Seth's concussion would we have seen Jackson blow up yet? If Garcia doesn't leave does Brady catch fire and change that team's trajectory?
i didn’t even remember doherty getting another job after carolina…i thought he sought self help and went to tv/radio.
Roy's last 4 years wasn't that bad considering a few things, first off then entire time Roy coached he had a 4 year plain so to speak. Every 4 years or so the talent he brought in would be developed and ready for a run. I truly believe Coby White leaving threw off his apple cart he never expected that and to some extent Little leaving early.
The next year Coby could have been playing with Anthony and that team would have been really good but Coby wasn't there any the injury bug hit.
Then the next year Roy had brought in talent but covid happened and coaching and teaching freshmen during covid was impossible and even more so when Roy was admittedly terrified of covid.
I honestly think Roy thought he left Hubert a stacked house when he left and Hubert made it to the championship game it appeared that he had done so the next year he lost all control with a team and we stink again.
Hubert was done a disservice by Roy Carolina and anyone that thought hiring him was a good idea.
OK, a lot of "reasons", but Roy won 64% of his games in his last 4 years, Hubert has won 70% of his in the 1st 3 and a half after.
You make a fair point with the percentages, but no one will ever make me believe Roy's fear of covid made his last season way worse than it should have been.
I will ask this do you think this team this year would be better or worse if Roy was the coach?
That is a great question. My 2 cents it would be 100% better if Roy was the coach of this team.
In a way, that sorta indicates his overall passion and ability to be a great coach. "I'll do it for my alma mater, but I don't really have the devotion and drive to coach young men to play the game." If that makes sense.
Hubert Davis is Roy's project. Roy Williams got him into coaching and then groomed him to be his successor. There's a sort of obligation to Roy's legacy that lingers, too
I'm not sure, early career Roy, I do think would. His last few years, I'm not so sure. Heck, that Hubert national title run year, most of the players were set to leave pre season, or at least looking into it with Roy there. It was a mess. Took awhile to get re-situated that next year. They liked Roy as a guy, and next to Dean he's my all-time favorite, but the on court stuff was going south, dealing with the new landscape.
One of Roy's very few failures was not developing a coaching tree. While UNC fans make fun of Coach K's tree and their lack of success, Duke has options to "keep it in the family" if the Scheyer experiment fails.
But this is typical when it comes to a hand-picked replacement. It often doesn't work out.
So let me ask this question what would Roy have done with the returning team the year after the Natty game run? Roy would not have IMO lost the team the next year that Hubert missed the tournament with. We had the tool the next year and we dropped the ball, windows for winning championship is small and if you miss those they re hard to get again. It's not like they was good and just slipped up and lost they was never even close and I think coaching is to blame.
I'm not sure that great coaches are required to create a tree. I guess it happens spontaneously. I don't really know.
I think the dookies are going to be just fine with Scheyer.
I was just looking at the Hubert Davis as a coach variable. Hubert was never inclined to be a coach. Roy tried to make him a coach. And, maybe he is and will become a great coach. I'm fine to give Hubert more time and I've enjoyed the super-high highs that the HD era has brought. Beating Coach K TWICE in 2022, to end his career at home and altogether.. in the Final Four no less... and then an NCAA run to the championship game that fell short due to injury. That's not a fluke. The next season sucked and the next season was an ACC RS Championship, ACC COY and a #1 seed in the NCAA and Sweet 16. That is hardly a shameful record. This season has been a struggle. Everyone KNEW it would be a struggle. UNC fans are spoiled rotten.
I don't think it's a requirement either. But if you coach at a program that thinks being from the program is almost a pre-requisite to become the head coach, then I think there is a part where you have to develop your staff. In the end, the main job is to win the next game, I understand that. But the responsibility is there IMO (even slightly) to plan for that.
And I don't disagree with your point. Who knows. Hubert might just be an underachieving regular season coach in most years, who always figures out the right stuff to win a couple of NCAA Tournament games. And who knows... Maybe he'll turn out to be just fine and he'll truly make necessary adjustments from here on out.
For me, the way he's put together the staff is strange and an indicator he doesn't really know what he's doing. Especially compared to the style of basketball it appears that he wants to play. It makes no sense to have an all UNC staff when UNC has never really played this style of basketball before.
It's a weird arrogant view IMO that he specifically said during his intro press conference. Didn't he say that you have to be a UNC guy to coach here? Idk all about that. For him to think that way is a bit alarming and concerning to the big picture of UNC basketball.
I don't think he's getting fired and he'll be coaching the first game of 2025-26. What I'll be interested in seeing is if there are changes made to his staff. I think changes to the staff will be necessary if the season continues to be an underwhelming one. If there are 0 changes made to the staff and he tries to replicate the same kind of basketball next season... That's an alarming red flag to me.
I agree that season went totally south. I do not think Roy would have lost that team to that extent, but I also do not think that team would of been there in the first place, they would have split off.
Hubert has earned his position squarely on the hot seat, that is the nature of the beast. I think the remainder of this year, and next will determine his status. I do not think he will go after this year, and certainlywon't be extended.
Good year last year, followed by what looks to be bad, without some crazy run that is. Great tourney run, national runner-up, after taking down a loaded dook team in epic fashion twice, followed by a total flop. Equals hot seat, success and failures early on.
This 3 and a half year run is not an unprecedented struggle though for UNC, heck the 4 years preceding it was worse. I just don't see the ax being so near as some. Seat is warm though, and rightfully so.
3 of the 4 years Hubert has been the coach we head into February on the bubble…That’s not what a healthy program does…I think we miss the tournament this year and then the bottom falls out next year and he will be fired…
Good points here man. Can't argue beating K twice for all the marbles is some of the best wins in history with HD at the helm. Reaching the title game (and the path to get there) and having a chance to win was a great accomplishment as well. I think the overall scope of work should include the highs AND the lows. It's very obvious many of the teams issues are centered around coaching. I honestly would like to see him redeem himself this off season and have a great year for 2025-2026. Heck man, it's not to late this season... If it's another flop of a season in 2025-26, the program continues downhill and mediocracy becomes the norm, it may be time to end the experiment. I'm actually pulling for and praying for him to prove us wrong and hope he actually does turn this around. We should all pray for him to succeed and overcome.
Im on board with this but I don't see that ever happing. I see his entire staff being let got to save his place and if next year he doesn't make a large improvement he will be out the next year. But IMO we will be wasting a year.
I have always had the way of thinking this is the problem with hiring "family"" they always get one year to many because you feel bad or tied to the coach, and this one even more so because Roy picked him to be groomed. I still to this day can't wrap my head around the thinking of pulling someone that wasn't a coach of any kind out of a broadcast booth to train for lack of a better word him to take over at a job the caliber of UNC, the entire notion was absurd.
Like i have brought up before i could be picked by a brain surgeon to learn how to do it and watch him everyday and him teach me everything he knows to do that work for 8 or 9 years but would anyone want me to do surgery on their brain.
It is a cross road for every sports program to make the right choice when a legacy coach retires we didn't do it right after Dean left Gut sit on the bench beside Dean for a 1000 years and he couldnt do it what made Roy think Hubert could do it in 8 or 9 years?
Especially since they (UNC) have actually had some successes what few time's they actually have done some pressing and trapping.
This has crossed my mind as well. If Hubert truly loves Carolina the way he says he does, wouldn’t he self-reflect and objectively say he may not be in the university’s best interest to continue leading this basketball program?
It is striking to me to think, Hubert was hired out of a broadcast booth by Roy, was Roy's assistant coach for all those years, was Roy's hand picked successor, yet guides his teams to play in a way that is polar opposite to what Roy did? Now Roy was not a clone of Dean, Roy passed on the multiple defensive approach Dean ran to perfection. Never understood why actually, always felt Roy would have had much better defensive teams had he used more of Dean's defensive approach. But Roy did bring a LOT of Dean's approach to offense, the breaks were basically institutionalized, as was owning the boards, playing thru your big men, ect.
Hubert has strayed so far from what both Roy or Dean taught that it is just not recognizable on either end of the court. Not all students walk lock step with their teacher. But you need to do no more than read this thread from page 1 to now page 6 to see that many and I do believe many more when Hubert was chosen, really wanted and expected more of a continuation of what has led UNC to be a MT Rushmore level program. Some alter, tweaks, and pivots sure (LOL) but the ability to clearly see UNC in the way the teams played. I don't think anyone was looking for experimental ball, let's try this and see IF it works. The expectation was let's do what we know works, tweak it sure but don't toss the old to the trash heap of history? It is a constant hammer of square pegs in to round holes, why do you still have square pegs to your desired approach 3.5yrs into your tenure as head coach? You don't have the excuse that you are having to work with Roy's players, you have a grand total of 1 Roy player remaining, you have more players on this team developed by other college coaches than you have those developed by Roy.
There has been a concern from the very day Hubert was picked to be our head coach, had nothing to do with his race and I should not even have to say that, it was all about Hubert's lack of experience as a head coach, much less a head coach at this level. UNC is simply not a place for OJT as a head basketball coach, no Rushmore level program is. New coaches have to develop just like new players have to develop, it is a huge risk to ignore that, it is a gamble and UNC just is not a program to gamble it legacy with.
There has been 1 and only 1 guy that I felt could have taken on the job and come close to what Dean did (who was himself and exception but in a very different time than we have now) and do so because he was a walking talking near clone of Dean in his vision of how the game should be played on both ends of the court, Phil Ford. I actually think Hubert could be a really good head coach at a major program given around 10yrs or so to perfect his approaches, get the tinkering out of the way and understand what works and what doesn't but you don't get tinker time at UNC, you hit the ground running or you hit the road, to whom great things are given, great things are expected. I am not able to see great things right now and I expect less and less every season of late, that is not UNC level.
I like Hubert, I think he is a great man, wish more men were like Hubert Davis, this world would be a much better place. How I see him as a man has nothing to do with how I see him as a coach.
Hubert has strayed so far from what both Roy or Dean taught that it is just not recognizable on either end of the court. Not all students walk lock step with their teacher. But you need to do no more than read this thread from page 1 to now page 6 to see that many and I do believe many more when Hubert was chosen, really wanted and expected more of a continuation of what has led UNC to be a MT Rushmore level program. Some alter, tweaks, and pivots sure (LOL) but the ability to clearly see UNC in the way the teams played. I don't think anyone was looking for experimental ball, let's try this and see IF it works. The expectation was let's do what we know works, tweak it sure but don't toss the old to the trash heap of history? It is a constant hammer of square pegs in to round holes, why do you still have square pegs to your desired approach 3.5yrs into your tenure as head coach? You don't have the excuse that you are having to work with Roy's players, you have a grand total of 1 Roy player remaining, you have more players on this team developed by other college coaches than you have those developed by Roy.
There has been a concern from the very day Hubert was picked to be our head coach, had nothing to do with his race and I should not even have to say that, it was all about Hubert's lack of experience as a head coach, much less a head coach at this level. UNC is simply not a place for OJT as a head basketball coach, no Rushmore level program is. New coaches have to develop just like new players have to develop, it is a huge risk to ignore that, it is a gamble and UNC just is not a program to gamble it legacy with.
There has been 1 and only 1 guy that I felt could have taken on the job and come close to what Dean did (who was himself and exception but in a very different time than we have now) and do so because he was a walking talking near clone of Dean in his vision of how the game should be played on both ends of the court, Phil Ford. I actually think Hubert could be a really good head coach at a major program given around 10yrs or so to perfect his approaches, get the tinkering out of the way and understand what works and what doesn't but you don't get tinker time at UNC, you hit the ground running or you hit the road, to whom great things are given, great things are expected. I am not able to see great things right now and I expect less and less every season of late, that is not UNC level.
I like Hubert, I think he is a great man, wish more men were like Hubert Davis, this world would be a much better place. How I see him as a man has nothing to do with how I see him as a coach.
Great post. I wish others that seem to always include "Family" in all of their posts would take blinders off.
It is kind of funny actually, we bring in a transfer, take Ingram for example, he is IN THE FAMILY day 1, yet a head coach has to have played for UNC to be considered family? The freakin coach of coaches UNC legend NEVER PLAYED for UNC, is Dean Smith not family?
Not that you are but I think lots of people get confused to the difference in Carooina basketball as opposed to the Carolina way, this happens alot on the other post in the quick stuff threads and threads like that.
Carolina basketball is the secondary break, feeds the post, play bigger and be bigger than your opponent, never get out rebounded, and always make more free throws that your opponent takes, that's Carolina Basketball. The Carolima way is play and conduct your self with class, try to graduate more players, recruit character along with talent, and do it for the brand.
With that said to your point about Hubert not have the same game approach to Roy im sure he has his own way of thinking as he should since it his program now but what he needs to remember is if you do the things I list above that are Carolina Basketball he will win. I have no doubt that he has the thinks I list above as the Carolina Way firmly handled and there isn't a problem in that part of the equation.
But that end of the day the part of the Carolina Way and Carolina Basketball that that fall on both sides is the most important part and that's winning. That the only one you can't screw up!
I did this last long post to make the point that when Hubert was hired there were a number of folks that did not feel he was the right guy for the job, specifically those with $$$, those that have shared big $$$ with UNC sports. There has been more than realized $$$ that has been sitting on the side lines but of all things, the Bellchick hire seems to have ignited a change.
That $$$, after the BB hire, took a look at UNC basketball, 2 concerning things were clear, 1 we missed on big men that we drastically needed because we were out bid, we see the results of that now. But as much if not more a concern is looking at our 25 recruiting class, all we have is 2 combo guards, the best rated is #44 in the country, we drastically needed Dybansa but that deal was already inked, whispers were we were ready to write a check that started with a 4 and had 6 zeros but that ship sailed before we could fill the quill! That money was ready to go on the table, maybe that money is now on the table, maybe what we do in the next portal will show that, maybe even shows up for a high school recruit?
1 guy in particular that has just a complete dislike for NIL seems to have a LOT of very close friends whispering in his ear to the extent he may be ready to pull the trigger and his trigger is difference making. What I am saying is looks like Hubert may be getting a pardon for this season sins because he has been in a manner handicapped. I am not happy with what I have seen from Hubert but as I have shared, I am not calling for him to be fired either, I am in wait and see mode for rest of this season. If what I think is coming actually happens, I think Hubert stays as our coach, at least for next season. But things are fluid, it is very important that Hubert finds a way to make this NCAAT field.
That $$$, after the BB hire, took a look at UNC basketball, 2 concerning things were clear, 1 we missed on big men that we drastically needed because we were out bid, we see the results of that now. But as much if not more a concern is looking at our 25 recruiting class, all we have is 2 combo guards, the best rated is #44 in the country, we drastically needed Dybansa but that deal was already inked, whispers were we were ready to write a check that started with a 4 and had 6 zeros but that ship sailed before we could fill the quill! That money was ready to go on the table, maybe that money is now on the table, maybe what we do in the next portal will show that, maybe even shows up for a high school recruit?
1 guy in particular that has just a complete dislike for NIL seems to have a LOT of very close friends whispering in his ear to the extent he may be ready to pull the trigger and his trigger is difference making. What I am saying is looks like Hubert may be getting a pardon for this season sins because he has been in a manner handicapped. I am not happy with what I have seen from Hubert but as I have shared, I am not calling for him to be fired either, I am in wait and see mode for rest of this season. If what I think is coming actually happens, I think Hubert stays as our coach, at least for next season. But things are fluid, it is very important that Hubert finds a way to make this NCAAT field.
Completely agree, far to many confuse the Carolina way and many don't really seem to know what the Carolina way actually is. So yeah, your post is "dead on balls accurate, it's a industry turm" (MY cousin Vinny) LOL.
