We keep trying to play help defense thus, leaving an open shooter and it's killing us. We give up an average of 10 made 3's per game and that is our Achilles Heel....no pun intended!!
If we quit collapsing on defense and guard the man we're supposed to guard, we'll be fine.
- Thread starter Heelz Kitchen
- Start date
Everyone is aware of it except the staff and players.
When this Carolina team plays I rarely see the opponent is "out efforting" us. Effort did not lose this game nor the State one.
It is patently derelict of coaching duty for this team to come out after giving up 30 threes on Saturday(reason for loss) and not be prepared to shutdown the 3 ball tonight. Hell, State and Clemson don't exactly get the cream of the crop in outside shooters. It apparently was not addressed in practice because somewhere, between the first Clemson three and the sixth consecutive one to start the game, even Roy would have called a timeout in disgust.
The starting group has no idea of how to execute the defensive system to contest the 3. This game, not from an effort standpoint but a strategic one, is embarrassing. These players deserve better preparation than they are displaying.
It is patently derelict of coaching duty for this team to come out after giving up 30 threes on Saturday(reason for loss) and not be prepared to shutdown the 3 ball tonight. Hell, State and Clemson don't exactly get the cream of the crop in outside shooters. It apparently was not addressed in practice because somewhere, between the first Clemson three and the sixth consecutive one to start the game, even Roy would have called a timeout in disgust.
The starting group has no idea of how to execute the defensive system to contest the 3. This game, not from an effort standpoint but a strategic one, is embarrassing. These players deserve better preparation than they are displaying.
This has always been Roy’s philosophy and I can’t see him changing now. It is a very dated defense that doesn’t mesh as well with the game today as it did 20 years ago. When Roy has the talent to offset it, Carolina is fine and wins a lot of games. When the talent is not there (like this year), you see these type of results.
100% agree. All Roy needs to do is re-take like 6th grade math and his philosophy should change. I don't think we're NIT bound, but do agree he won't change.
Clemson made absolutely everything they threw up. A lot of those shots were very well guarded. But that’s what big time division 1 basketball players do, make tough shots. We need to counter with good offense. Instead it’s brick city.
If not for Cameron Johnson we would’ve been blown out of the building tonight. But before tonight he had been ice cold. Before 5 minutes left in the game tonight Berry had been ice cold. Kenny Williams has been atrocious. Robinson, known for his shooting ability in high school, still after almost two seasons looks like he’s never made a 3 in a game in his life.
We have to make jump shots. We’re not going to beat anybody until we do. Every team can shoot 3’s. We have to start making more of our own.
If not for Cameron Johnson we would’ve been blown out of the building tonight. But before tonight he had been ice cold. Before 5 minutes left in the game tonight Berry had been ice cold. Kenny Williams has been atrocious. Robinson, known for his shooting ability in high school, still after almost two seasons looks like he’s never made a 3 in a game in his life.
We have to make jump shots. We’re not going to beat anybody until we do. Every team can shoot 3’s. We have to start making more of our own.
Isn’t the answer simple?? Stay on your freakin man and don’t crash down on the driver.
Honestly I’m sick of Roy’s bullshit “I don’t know what else to do guys” excuse. It’s NOT hard as a coach to look your kids in the face and say you man the **** up and guard the guy in front of you. If he beats you he beats you. If he beats your teammate so be it, but you guard your ****ing man, nobody else. It’s simple. The bullshit has to stop.
That’s what was so frustrating about Roy’s excuses not to play Jalek. He always blamed it on his defense.
How much worse was Felton’s defense compared to everybody else’s?
How much worse was Felton’s defense compared to everybody else’s?
Based on Ross Martins quote, it seems simple. The players "don't understand the words coming out of your mouth". Next logical step is either a translator or instruction during next available practice. This 3 point situation is comical. Someone on the Carolina bench do your job.
The other issue for this defense is they absolutely force no turnovers. Roy's teams usually don't force a ridiculously high number of turnovers, but this year's team ranks among the bottom 15% in the country.
You combine that with a high volume of 3-point attempts allowed and a high percentage of 3-pointers made against... It equates to a pretty poor defense...
You want to know the scary thing too?
We should be even worse defensively... We have the best "free throw defense" in conference play. Opponents are shooting 64% from the FT line. And that's basically luck.
You combine that with a high volume of 3-point attempts allowed and a high percentage of 3-pointers made against... It equates to a pretty poor defense...
You want to know the scary thing too?
We should be even worse defensively... We have the best "free throw defense" in conference play. Opponents are shooting 64% from the FT line. And that's basically luck.
I mean, the philosophy works if executed. No one is doing that though. When our senior leader is one of the worst at paying attention to what is going on with his man when he doesn't have the ball you kind of get what we have going on here. We have no one right now that does a good job defensively. By the numbers we are one of the worst teams in the country at allowing a high % from deep and from stopping teams from shooting from out there. We just suck at it. I doubt it gets better. Hopefully some teams will start to miss a little more.
The crazy thing is and @GoNtheDistance said it best "guard your ****ing man". There's really no translation for that and honestly I can't believe 18-22 y/o don't understand it and know how to follow it. There's more to it than that. Maybe because it's beat into them to try and be around the rim for rebounding that when someone drives or passes into the lane they think they need to be there to grab the board on a shot?
When opponents are averaging 50% from behind the arc as they have of late, you're much better off to stay on your man and give up "the high percentage 2" than a 3. Unfortunately most teams aren't as incompetent around the rim as this UNC team has been or the answer would be even more obvious.
Yep, this is the problem.
When we play small, it seems like all of the players are acutely aware of our interior defensive shortcomings, so they over help far too much.
We've give up so many open corner 3s it should be illegal. Our opponents are 30/60 over the last two games from 3. They would have to be shooting 75% from 2 to make 2s equally valuable. In reality, they are shooting 28/77, for 36.4%.
The staff's priorities are wrong. Personally, I think we need to go big again, as it seems like we over help when we don't have bigs in the middle.
When we play small, it seems like all of the players are acutely aware of our interior defensive shortcomings, so they over help far too much.
We've give up so many open corner 3s it should be illegal. Our opponents are 30/60 over the last two games from 3. They would have to be shooting 75% from 2 to make 2s equally valuable. In reality, they are shooting 28/77, for 36.4%.
The staff's priorities are wrong. Personally, I think we need to go big again, as it seems like we over help when we don't have bigs in the middle.
I don't know what the answer is, and maybe some of you are right hell maybe all of you are right but, sometimes it is the..............
"Jimmys and the Joe's not the X's and the O's!"
"Jimmys and the Joe's not the X's and the O's!"
The problem.is not collapsing. The problem is getting blown by so that the defense has to collapse.
You can't not collapse on an unimpeded driver. A 100% 2 pointer is worth more than a 50% chance at a 3 pointer.
The problem is that too many people are collapsing at times. The bigs are out if position to the driver being funneled to them making the perimeter have to collapse to the driver. And getting blown past on the perimeter regularly.
Until you understand this about the system you can't knock it. There is a reason this year is the worst 3 point defense we have probably ever had. It mostly starts with the interior players. Some of it also has to do with Berry and Williams getting blown so often.
You can't not collapse on an unimpeded driver. A 100% 2 pointer is worth more than a 50% chance at a 3 pointer.
The problem is that too many people are collapsing at times. The bigs are out if position to the driver being funneled to them making the perimeter have to collapse to the driver. And getting blown past on the perimeter regularly.
Until you understand this about the system you can't knock it. There is a reason this year is the worst 3 point defense we have probably ever had. It mostly starts with the interior players. Some of it also has to do with Berry and Williams getting blown so often.
I get what you're saying and you're probably right about most of it. However this team shows that there's no easy layup and certainly no way they could get anywhere close to 100% chance at 2 pointers. Hell they consistently miss easy shots around the rim all the time.
Exactly, just not enough athleticism or quickness to put pressure on the perimeter. If they do they’ll get beat going to the basket.
I’m not sure how anyone looked at what Roy lost from the last two years and thought he would maintain the success. Next year could be worse.
Yeah I agree with a lot of this. I also believe in "variance"... I think we've had back to back teams shoot exactly 15/30 from 3, or 50%. Granted we've given up a ton of wide open shots, but I still don't expect that to continue. I quickly looked through some of our other games this year for my own amusement at three point shooting by our opponents:
Wofford 7-22
Notre Dame 10-24
Clemson (home) 11-31
Wake 11-29
FSU 11-29
VT 12-30
I intentionally picked losses and games I remembered us playing "bad" in my mind. Obviously I'm not incredibly thrilled with the percentages any of these games. However it's worth noting that with the same players, and same scheme, the highest percentage is on the road @ Notre Dame where they shot 10/24, and the mean percentage is 37.5% in these games.
I simply point this out because had State, or Clemson, shot closer to the mean... or hell just not 50%, we probably win both and no one is nearly as "up in arms" about the defensive philosophies of this team.
Now, all that being said: I do believe basketball has changed, and will continue to push more and more emphasis to the 3-point shot. I'm not ready to blindly and lamely say "oh well just give any help, I'd rather them just have wide open layups". However, I do think our defensive philosophy needs to, and should be tweaked in some capacity. For example: STOP helping off of a corner 3-point shooter ever.
Given our lack of skilled depth, I'd also like to see some consideration given to zone. We can save some fouls and in theory save some legs by just mixing in some 1-3-1 zone. It also should help limit some of the dribble penetration and at least give our opponents a different look in the half court set.
I'm not ready to jump off a cliff just yet. If we lose to Pitt, it's been nice knowing you guys.
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It is not one thing but many. All of the defensive issues are known. Inability to keep your man in front of you, huge emphasis on rebounding of the small lineup, protect the paint, always error on the side of over helping, not closing out, etc. The problem is acknowledged, Roy is the coach with many a well paid staff member. Its not like this is the first Roy Williams coached defense that creates open 3s for the opposition.
Im not sure there is an answer for the players but they deserve the effort to be made by the staff. When Roy says "if I knew the answer don't you think I would have fixed the problem", I will know hope has left the building for this great group of players and this years ceiling is not the roof.
I've never knocked the system. It is the execution of the system. Guys are going to get blown by at times. Offensive players are too talented. Like you said, one problem is too many people help. Even on the last drive last night we had three people standing in virtually the same place trying to help after Kenny got beat off the dribble. That is never going to work. We also have guys, experienced guys who should know better, helping at times even when there is no penetration. Just pointless help for no reason.
The second issue is our positioning off the ball. We are simply not where we are supposed to be, which leads to guys getting the ball where we can't recover. It is hard to point to anyone that is consistently in the right place off the ball in these situations. So the question becomes should something change because this team just sucks at executing the system. I don't know but we are one of the worst teams in the country at it and contrary to what many think we usually are pretty good at it.
Why do these random people who never post only show up the day we lose a game?
I think many people tend to only post when they are frustrated. There should probably like a 12 hour freeze on posting after a loss, lol Every board I've ever been a part of is like that though.
Berry stays in the paint on defense like he's Mark Eaton!
The heels got down by double digits in he first half, but true to form, RW held on to that
"use it or lose it TO"!!
Notice in the 2nd half, when the Clemson lead went from 44-28 to 44-34, they called a TO!
UVA held Clemson to 36 for the game, the heels held them to 44 in the first HALF!
The heels got down by double digits in he first half, but true to form, RW held on to that
"use it or lose it TO"!!
Notice in the 2nd half, when the Clemson lead went from 44-28 to 44-34, they called a TO!
UVA held Clemson to 36 for the game, the heels held them to 44 in the first HALF!
Heels with higher level talent would just outscore the flawed system on Defense, but this is a lower level Heels team on offense.. If the Heels would have came back and won last night its still a flawed system... If the Seahawks throw a one yard TD in the Super Bowl and win its still the wrong play... it's too far to come over and cover the 3 after a collapse its wearing them down and exhausting them and they only have 5 good players...
I feel the blue print to beat the Heels which this year was written by Wofford is , Break down and kick , not break down and drive to the hole....
They are attacking then when we collapse they kick it out, many of us just think it would be better to live with the 2 point attempt..
I am not jumping off any cliffs nor am I going to call for Roy to step aside, guys we all knew this was likely to happen before this season tipped off. What is hard for me to understand, I can understand our freshmen making mistakes, I can understand Luke not being a great defender, he isn't uber long o freakish athletic. But it is our back court that is more of the problem than would be expected. Joel, Kenny, Theo are all now or have been very solid individual defenders yet they seem to be defending of late like wide eyed freshmen, taking poor timed chances that are killing us.
Well said, Dave. The upperclassmen not taking the step forward defensively is puzzling.
Wofford only shot 7/24 from 3 didn't they? The blueprint in that game was to match up with us in rebounds (think they were -4) and have us turn it over damn near 20 times while shooting 36%
Granted they may have hit a ton of contested 2-point jump shots that I don't remember. I've tried to block that game out from my memory as much as possible.
Late in the first half and early in the 2nd half I was watching Joel drop way off his guy and failing to recover.
When we were making our run, he was still dropping off to be in a position to help, BUT he wasn't dropping off so far. 8-10 feet when we were getting burned, 3-5 feet when we were making our comeback. (Not precise measurements, of course, just my impression.)
There's a lesson there. We don't need to stop what we are doing - just tighten up.
The other thing we did in the 2nd half that I didn't notice earlier was traps. Maybe we did them earlier but, if we did, they weren't aggressive enough for me to notice.
We didn't do a lot of traps even when we were being aggressive. Give credit to Clemson for avoiding them. But we definitely made them count better.
When we were making our run, he was still dropping off to be in a position to help, BUT he wasn't dropping off so far. 8-10 feet when we were getting burned, 3-5 feet when we were making our comeback. (Not precise measurements, of course, just my impression.)
There's a lesson there. We don't need to stop what we are doing - just tighten up.
The other thing we did in the 2nd half that I didn't notice earlier was traps. Maybe we did them earlier but, if we did, they weren't aggressive enough for me to notice.
We didn't do a lot of traps even when we were being aggressive. Give credit to Clemson for avoiding them. But we definitely made them count better.
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Although I don't like Brownell, I'll give him credit for making quick in-game adjustments when we would get his guys rattled.
We haven't always been terrible at 3 pt defense. It has basically been an issue this year and the two previous years (ranked 125th last year and 275th two years ago and 319th this year). Before that we were 13th and 50th. So this particular group has regressed, though it's a little hard to make that blanket statement with turnover. I think the eye test backs that up though.
I won’t take anything away from Brownell, he had his guys ready to play and they kicked out teeth in for 30 minutes.
I’m not sure how much adjusting he did through the run. They certainly weren’t ready for the trap out of a timeout, we just dribbled the damn thing out of bounds for example.
I do give credit to him and his players for being mentally tough enough to finish it off, I just think our short comings were more to blame in denying the comeback.
I think we couldn’t get enough defensive rebounds, despite being in position, and then we reverted back to terrible defense on the late possession which led to a wide open 3 and an easy layup.
