The prestige and legacy of Carolina Basketball is about the system.
Jawad Williams Says Going Outside The Family For Roy's Replacement is a No Go
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The culture is part of the system, as Dean Smith explained more than once.
Moreover, if you expect any outside coach to walk in here and not have a culture change, yeah well, good luck with that.
Meh. Even if Tony Bennett wants the job the idea of watching and rooting for that style of basketball makes me want to vomit (and most recruits also).
Does he win? Absolutely. Can we win other ways because we are the legacy of UNC basketball? Absolutely.
I'd prefer to look to a UNC guy first (Stack, Wes) but if a great coach who plays our uptempo style comes along I wouldn't dismiss him because he has no UNC connection.
Doh failed largely because he eschewed the system, culture and legacy --- a self-inflicted wound to both himself and the program.
In contrast Roy was immediately successful at KU because he brought the Dean Smith culture and system with him, and more than anyone in Dean's tree, embraced it.
It’s winning and cutting down nets. No one would give a rats ass about the system if we didn’t win.
Doh made many mistakes but I think chief among them he just wasn’t that great of a coach. We were lucky to have Roy waiting in the wings last time. I don’t see anyone in the near future from the UNC tree that could take over using the same style.
There are limits of course, no one wants to Tony Bennett take over the program. But above everything else, I care about winning and there’s more than one way to skin a cat. If the system changes but we still get a really good coach that promotes an upstanding culture, I’m in.
Well said. I just don’t see a UNC guy right now that could take over. I’m hoping stackhouse but that’s only if he can turn it around at Vandy.
Yeah, think this comes as close to how I see things as any other post on this thread. First, this is a question that can only be answered WHEN Roy actually steps down, lot of things can occur between now and then. maybe Stack finds big time success at vandy, maybe Wes moves to a higher level and still have the level of success, maybe Hubert proves himself as the head coach for another program (I absolutely believe that has to happen before he would be a serious consideration). If we were talking next week, I would have King in the discussion as well, I think Rasheed could be a special coach one day.
Unlike most, I am not one of those folks that believes it should only be guys from Roy or dean's tree. If it is a close call between a UNC guy and an outsider sure, go with the Tar Heel. Absolutely demand that who ever it is has proven to run a clean program that is highly respected by his peers.
Doherty was a big time mistake made by baddour because he was unwilling to hire someone not from Dean's coaching tree. When Roy passed on us that first time, the guy Dean was pushing Baddour to hire was Rick Majerus who was not a Tar heel or from Dean's coaching tree. Now was Dean Smith a dumb arse for pushing a guy outside his tree, was he wrong for doing so, feel like maybe you know better what should have happened than Dean did?
Plain and simple, matt was just not ready to be the main man in one of the most pressurized jobs in the college game, he may have been able to have become a fine coach in time but he was put in that pressure cooker before he was ready for it and frankly Hubert just is not ready for that until he can prove himself as the HEAD coach as another program. being an assistant is far from being the head coach, commentating on ESPN is far from being a head coach. Yeah, Roy left UNC and became a very successful coach at kansas, as Dean became a legendary coach at UNC coming from kansas but this isn't then, this is now and the world is now very different than it was. I want, when Roy does step down (I hope several years from now) for the decision to be made based on it being a honorable man, that runs a clean program, that respects our history and embraces it, and has shown solid success as a head coach in what ever level he has coached in.
Roy is not Dean, has his own way of doing things. Matt absolutely was not Roy and went about being a head coach MUCH differently. I agree Hubert is a great guy, fully believe he would run a clean program but can he structure teams his way and win at a level UNC fans would accept, I don't know nor can anyone else, I think he needs to be a head coach before we can consider him for head coach at UNC. If I had to hire a successor for Roy today, pretty likely have Wes and King on my final list, in the future I could see guys like marcus paige, Kendal, Stack, or Sheed pass those guys by. Just depends on when the decision has to be made and I hope it will not be any time soon!
Proven coach with success elsewhere? What's your definition? Regular season? NCAA titles?
Here is a list of NCAA champions over the last 50 years and a list of highest paid coaches.
https://www.ncaa.com/history/basketball-men/d1
https://www.boydsbets.com/highest-paid-coaches-college-basketball/
Other than Jay Wright, who you got to coach UNC outside the family right now? I would love Roy to coach another 10 years, but we can' t predict when that day may come. Roy has some health issues.
Exclude any coach that has not won a championship or currently coaches in the NBA.
Oh, Mark Few. A coach that has had a lot of talent over the years and has not won a title. Skaka Smart was the big hit on this board a few years ago.
Now lets talk about Jay Wright. If I go outside my box, this would be the only coach outside the UNC family I would consider. The next question I have to ask you is do you think UNC could afford him? Roy is one of the lowest paid college coaches in the NCAA (see list attached list). Jay Wright base is $400,000 more.
If UNC went after Jay Wright what are the chances that Villanova would substantially increase his salary pricing UNC out of the market?
Another question, why would Jay leave Villanova for the toughest conference in the US when he basically has a cakewalk to a conference championship each year? Chances are he gets another title within the next few years. They are currently preseason favorites this upcoming season. UNC cannot afford Jay Wright. I recall a few years ago another school tried to convince Jay to leave and the school jumped in an raised his salary. Calipari does this all the time.
Miller at Arizona. Well, he's a proven winner during the "regular" season. Does that count? No, not him he is a cheater, but he is a proven winner by some folks definition. Thus, lets up the anti and move on to championships. Who else qualifies? You want Bennett to run that offense?
Good discussion.
Here is a list of NCAA champions over the last 50 years and a list of highest paid coaches.
https://www.ncaa.com/history/basketball-men/d1
https://www.boydsbets.com/highest-paid-coaches-college-basketball/
Other than Jay Wright, who you got to coach UNC outside the family right now? I would love Roy to coach another 10 years, but we can' t predict when that day may come. Roy has some health issues.
Exclude any coach that has not won a championship or currently coaches in the NBA.
Oh, Mark Few. A coach that has had a lot of talent over the years and has not won a title. Skaka Smart was the big hit on this board a few years ago.
Now lets talk about Jay Wright. If I go outside my box, this would be the only coach outside the UNC family I would consider. The next question I have to ask you is do you think UNC could afford him? Roy is one of the lowest paid college coaches in the NCAA (see list attached list). Jay Wright base is $400,000 more.
If UNC went after Jay Wright what are the chances that Villanova would substantially increase his salary pricing UNC out of the market?
Another question, why would Jay leave Villanova for the toughest conference in the US when he basically has a cakewalk to a conference championship each year? Chances are he gets another title within the next few years. They are currently preseason favorites this upcoming season. UNC cannot afford Jay Wright. I recall a few years ago another school tried to convince Jay to leave and the school jumped in an raised his salary. Calipari does this all the time.
Miller at Arizona. Well, he's a proven winner during the "regular" season. Does that count? No, not him he is a cheater, but he is a proven winner by some folks definition. Thus, lets up the anti and move on to championships. Who else qualifies? You want Bennett to run that offense?
Good discussion.
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Cursing doesn't help make a point and reversing an argument doesn't change the fact that the original argument was a strawman. But..
DES wanted Roy to take over the program after Gut! He set it up so that Gut would get his chance to retire as a HC and so he would hit the ground running with a good team. Gut did well for a bit, but couldn't maintain the recruiting. Roy was Roy and couldn't look his players in the eye and tell them he was leaving that first time. He returned because DES appealed to him personally and he would never disappoint his mentor! Once again the great DES comes through for UNC. UNC needs someone who can continue the culture (especially, who appreciates the Family) and tweak it to fit their style and modern needs, but it does not need someone who will come in with a completely new culture! Family should be considered first, and carry a lot of weight because they will understand the things about this U that make it different and that are non-negotiable. Understanding how to coach is also extremely important and will be a factor. I hope Rice, Stack, Hubs, and Wes continue to grow as coaches. I hope May. Sheed, Haase, Butter, etc learn a lot and get their chance to coach too. I fully expect that 10 years from now, the clear candidate will be revealed and he will have proven himself. If that person is outside the Family, he better work to understand the culture and not just replace it! I also expect that who ever it is will have growing pains trying to follow two legends at the greatest U in the world!
DES wanted Roy to take over the program after Gut! He set it up so that Gut would get his chance to retire as a HC and so he would hit the ground running with a good team. Gut did well for a bit, but couldn't maintain the recruiting. Roy was Roy and couldn't look his players in the eye and tell them he was leaving that first time. He returned because DES appealed to him personally and he would never disappoint his mentor! Once again the great DES comes through for UNC. UNC needs someone who can continue the culture (especially, who appreciates the Family) and tweak it to fit their style and modern needs, but it does not need someone who will come in with a completely new culture! Family should be considered first, and carry a lot of weight because they will understand the things about this U that make it different and that are non-negotiable. Understanding how to coach is also extremely important and will be a factor. I hope Rice, Stack, Hubs, and Wes continue to grow as coaches. I hope May. Sheed, Haase, Butter, etc learn a lot and get their chance to coach too. I fully expect that 10 years from now, the clear candidate will be revealed and he will have proven himself. If that person is outside the Family, he better work to understand the culture and not just replace it! I also expect that who ever it is will have growing pains trying to follow two legends at the greatest U in the world!
Roy is the 8th highest paid coach in the NCAA. Out of over 300 D1 coaches. "One of the lowest" is very wrong.
Here are some real sources on this:
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach
https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/sports/highest-paid-college-basketball-coaches-14774331
https://fanbuzz.com/college-basketball/highest-paid-college-basketball-coaches/
Which intern did I just get fired?
Spot on.
And you can take your point back even further. Dean's first "groomed" assistant was Larry Brown, who indeed turned out to be an excellent basketball mind and teacher, but it also didn't take long to figure out that Larry was a nomad and a rogue who just couldn't lkeep his nose clean. Dean never stopped loving him, but Larry was always the prodigal and ever the black sheep who wasn't gonna get the UNC job.
Then in the 70s the heir-apparent label turned to Eddie Fogler. Eddie also had a sharp basketball mind and he had considerable success at Wichita State, Vandy and USCjr,
However, at his last stop he seemed to stray further and further from the system, and after coming out strong his last few teams didn't fare so well. Plus, after leaving Columbia on a sour note, I just don't think Eddie had the stomach anymore for the politics and pressure of a D-1 coaching position.
But even as that was happening, by the 80s the heir-apparent scuttlebutt had turned almost exclusively to Roy --- while he was still on the UNC bench. Dean knew what he had and Roy was the truest of true believers. He got the KU job on Dean's word alone and of course proved his mentor right. And as most of us know, his eventual return to Chapel Hill was for all intents and purposes pre-ordained. Only the rushed timing of Dean's unfortunate premature decision to retire threw a wrench into that, as Gut wasn't ready to leave, and it was really the only way to handle it, given the situation --- and then of course the bad timing for Roy when Gut abruptly retired (and on a side note, the only other logical choice when Roy balked should've been Phil Ford, but alas his past drinking problems got in the way with the PTBs).
I felt (and even heard) from day-one that Hubert was tabbed by Roy for reasons beyond just another Asst Coach hire, one of which is that, like his boss, he is the truest of true believers. Again, there are other family candidates like Wes and others, but folks shouldn't think for a second that Hubert isn't being looked at particularly closely.
Money for the basketball coach at UNC will never be a problem. The Rams Club won't be out bid for a basketball coach. Hell, they just spent $12 million to fire a football coach. Roy doesn't get paid more, because he doesn't ask for more. If he wanted to he could be at the top of that list.
Sure, it does. This is not me saying I dislike our system or that we should get rid of it.
What I am disagreeing with is the notion we have to purist and rigid about this. There are programs that win as much or almost as much as we do. If by the time Roy retires there is no one in the immediate coaching tree that can step in and take the reigns smoothly, we should look elsewhere for the best coach we can find.
UNC is a highly desirable job, there won’t be a shortage of candidates. So I say get the best guy regardless of whether he’s connected to Carolina or not.
Don’t speak facts, this board doesn’t like that if it doesn’t fit the agenda.
Reversal where? Might wanna look up the definition of strawman instead of making false accusations and conjecturing all over the place.
You're going to discredit a coach who reached a National Championship game, has had a very clean, solid program over the decade which reached elite status during the latter half and, most important, even has a Roy seal of approval? The only reason he's not a National Champion now is because of our own HC, who happens to be the best in the business. Had this season not been cancelled he might be one right now. So yeah, I'd take that over our own family tree right now. Anyone without tinted glasses probably would too.
You honestly think UNC couldn't find the money for Jay Wright if he wanted to come here? Lol.
Let's not shift the goal posts. The point was that if Jay Wright is available, you take him.
Take Notes, THIS is what a strawman looks like. No one here would say Miller is a proven winner and I can't imagine any UNC fan wants him as HC after all that's happened. He's a glorified recruiter who couldn't even do that well without cheating.
Let's put it this way: Winning cures all. If Bennett came here, won a championship and continued to run a clean program I guarantee you not a single one of you here would be crying about his offense. In fact, some of you would be vehemently defending it like they do Roy's timeouts.
A key point, mentioned by Gary is the idea that Roy got the Kansas job pretty much on Dean's word that he would be clean, and excellent. I doubt Roy is going to forget that, How much more likely is it that UNC would take Hubert "just on Roy's word"? A good bit, I think.
Now kansas was on probation and that may have somewhat limited their options.
I have a few things about Hubert that give me pause and they have mostly been mentioned already. No HC coaching experience yet. UNC now and NCAA Hoops now is light years beyond what it was when UNC took Dean and Kansas took Roy. Problem is I think we are running out of time for Davis to leave and get HC experience elsewhere and build success before Roy hangs it up. We are getting down to the wire on that. And I don't believe Hubert leaving is "The Plan" anyway.
It also troubles me how poorly we shoot threes and FTs in what seems like too many cases. And iirc Hubert handles teaching shooting. Am I mistaken here?
As a Big positive, I have ZERO doubt that Hubert Davis would be very much like Roy in keeping the program clean and ethical. I believe UNC would not skip a beat in those areas. Hubert (imo) would be just as up front with prospects about their likely roles and the high expectations of representing UNC. Team First, Playing time is earned, no promises to recruits wrt playing time starting etc. These are all important things for UNC to remain UNC.
Now kansas was on probation and that may have somewhat limited their options.
I have a few things about Hubert that give me pause and they have mostly been mentioned already. No HC coaching experience yet. UNC now and NCAA Hoops now is light years beyond what it was when UNC took Dean and Kansas took Roy. Problem is I think we are running out of time for Davis to leave and get HC experience elsewhere and build success before Roy hangs it up. We are getting down to the wire on that. And I don't believe Hubert leaving is "The Plan" anyway.
It also troubles me how poorly we shoot threes and FTs in what seems like too many cases. And iirc Hubert handles teaching shooting. Am I mistaken here?
As a Big positive, I have ZERO doubt that Hubert Davis would be very much like Roy in keeping the program clean and ethical. I believe UNC would not skip a beat in those areas. Hubert (imo) would be just as up front with prospects about their likely roles and the high expectations of representing UNC. Team First, Playing time is earned, no promises to recruits wrt playing time starting etc. These are all important things for UNC to remain UNC.
I’m not exactly sure that’s a good example for your argument.
1. UNC wouldn’t go after him anyway.
2. Calipari is already 60. By the time Roy retires, he’d be too old as a new hire. Not to mention it’s a moot point anyway since we wouldn’t seek him out to begin with.
3. He’s going to be at Kentucky for the rest of his career for as long as he wants.
This isn’t to say I want just anyone for the job. I’m sure the athletics department will make a decision based off of winning and cultural fit. But being a part of the UNC coaching tree should not be a prerequisite. Not at all.
Lets agree to disagree.
I'm not discrediting Mark Few. I'm just not going to go nuts over a coach who has been coaching over 25-years, with good players year in and year out who has never won a national title. Very few people remembers who finishes in second place.
I just don't see Few or Wright as options for UNC's next coach. Both are basically gods at their schools and both Villanova and Gonzaga will pony up to keep them. I don't think they will even get to an offer from UNC.
If Few were to continue to be at Gonzaga for the next 5-7 years when Roy might retire, why would he leave after 25+ years with the same school at age 65? Sorry, I don't see it.
Jay Wright has 2 National Championships and 19 years with Villanova. He has a legacy and he would also be around 65 if Roy were to stay 6 more seasons. Would he leave? Sorry, I don't see it.
Hubert played 4 yrs under Dean Smith, 12 yrs in NBA, 7 yrs at ESPN, 8 yrs with Roy as an assistant coach. How does that experience compare to Roy before he was hired at Kansas? It doesn’t.
Hubert Davis is wired like Roy on a number of levels.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-b...-espn-north-carolina-tar-heels-coaching-staff
"For the last four or five years, Hubert has always been on my mind in case a spot did come open," Williams said in a statement announcing the hire. "I didn't know if I could get him to come back, but I knew I wanted him to be the first option."
Remember that statement when Roy retires.
Lets agree to disagree for the sake of moving on.
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So we get from the Family and this turns into Matt D. train wreck again. I guess everyone will be happy with those results. U know because he's"Family".
My point (which you missed) was you glossed over the system and jumped to winning, and sure, there are multiple coaches who could win here, but only a very small group outside the family who would/could do it the right way. And even then it would just be a bunch of guys running around in UNC uniforms and would cease to be Carolina basketball..
You’re letting fear and gate keeping blind you to the fact that this is not a purity contest. Dean didn’t have a connection to Carolina before he came here and he only served 3 years under McGuire before taking the reins.
My point is, we should not seal ourselves off to multiple possibilities because of tradition. We will need someone who can coach, connect with kids, promote a positive atmosphere, and win ball games. I don’t care what that looks like as long as Carolina blue remains the force it always has been. Are you really going to cry foul just because the method of basketball isn’t to your liking?
Change isn’t always a bad thing.
If I remember correctly, Roy was a VERY successful coach at Kansas for what 16 yrs? He didn't win a championship there so we should have passed on him with your way of thinking.
If I remember correctly, Roy was a VERY successful coach at Kansas for what 16 yrs? He didn't win a championship there so we should have passed on him with your way of thinking.
So, is it possible that Hubert can be VERY successful or better than Roy tenure at Kansas if he became UNC's head coach? How long did Dean coach before he got his first title? Folks seem to think that Hubert needs to go out and coach and prove himself before becoming UNC's head coach. I disagree with that.
But there is an argument that those in the family won't always do it the right way either (Doh being the blatant example).
URI lost Danny Hurley to UConn. They wanted to keep the same attitude and system in place so they hired his assistant head coach. The program has gone to absolute hell under the new coach and he isn't at all like Danny. This was also a guy that everyone around the program loved before he became HC and they thought he'd be perfect.
The point is that you never know what you're getting until that guy is given the keys. That's my fear with hiring someone in the family who doesn't have the experience.
Hopefully in 5 or so years when Roy retires we'll have a perfect candidate from inside the family. If we don't, I'm in the camp where I'd rather hire the better coach who is also a good person over a family guy without the experience.
I'm not blind to anything. McGuire was a capable coach and won but he was dirty and it wasn't sustainable. Dean not onIy did things right, he invented a better way of playing the game. I don't expect you to get it (or really care if you do), but make no mistake, this beautiful thing we've all been spoiled with --- Carolina Basketball --- was created by Dean Smith. Roy Williams was the perfect heir to Dean, not just because he's a good coach --- there are plenty of those --- but because he restored and carried on Dean's system, i.e., Carolina Basketball. So yeah, change from that would be a very bad thing.
That's why family per se isn't enough --- it needs to be the right member. Doh's issue wasn't experience. it was his mentality.
Maybe with more experience he would have had a better mentality.
The guy had no idea how to be a head coach and it showed in his very first meeting with his players which apparently went awful. One season at ND and missing the NCAA's obviously did nothing to qualify him to be the coach at UNC.
Fair enough, but more seasons and more success at ND wouldn't have necessarily made him any better of a fit here either -- hell, it might've even made him worse, considering how big his head was when he got here
You can drop the condescending, know it all bullshit. You’re not a gate keeper for what is and what isn’t Carolina basketball. Smarter men than us will make that call and I am confident they will do what’s rational as opposed to some romantic, limited notion of what hoops at UNC should look like.
Whoever the heir is, doesn’t have to resemble Dean or Roy.
The condescension started with you calling me blind, so spare me your usual faux indignation. And there's nothing "romantic" or "limited" about my notion --- the record and the men the system has produced speaks for itself... i.e., that "rational" thing.
You're right about one thing, that neither you nor I will make the call when the time comes. As for me, I'll just hope that doesn't have to be decided for a long time, and when it does that Roy will be given the influence that he, like Dean Smith before him, has earned.
It sounds like he sees 'the family' as restricted to those who played at UNC.
To restrict to even to those who were UNC players or assistants is reckless. And it easily could produce a mess.
They wanted to hire only in 'the family' to replace Guthridge. It did not work (in part because Doherty was not ready, and in larger part because Dean did not want Doherty). If Ropy had stayed at KU and they had kept to that damned 'family only ' notion, UNC may have dirty Larry Brown as coach - Dean adored Brown.
I will bet that Alabama football is not so stupid as to restrict Saban's replacement to a Bama alum. Saban is not a Bama alum. If Ohio St football were that stupid, it never would have hired Paul Brown, Woody Hayes, Jim Tressel, Urban Meyer, or Ryan Day.
I understand no wanting the Wake job if he really wants the UNC job. But I would hope that he works to get a shot in a bigger league than the SoCon. Building UNCG is not all that impressive - unless he gets the Spartans to make major noise in the NCAA.
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