I have not found what you described here on this board at all. Can you give some examples?
Jesus Christ . .
- Thread starter BillyL
- Start date
To explain this would relate to quoting scripture. You do not have faith in that answer. You operate solely on what you see. Christian's are often the same people who are suffering in your example. Dont attribute Gods actions based on peoples sickness or tragedies. We all will die one day. You have but a short time to prepare for eternity. Death, pain, suffering, all will come to everyone. That's life. What would humanity be like if Ch ow never let anything bad happen to you. Have you dealt with children or young adults who had ot all handed to them? Compare that to some who had to go about it the hard way. They tend to be more productive to society.
Also, it's your choice. No one forced it on you. I tell all who come to simply keep an open mind. Many leave. I've looked for examples of brainwashing, and find none. I've looked for cult like activity, I've seen now. At least in my places of worship. Free will is our choice. I just suggest you give some thought to the possibility that if it all is true, what it does to undecided folks when you Express your "proof" of no God. If someone ask you, then share your thoughts. This is why I avoid topics like this, so I wont be attacked. I let my life be that example
Verbage concerning Christian's and their views has been widely debated. No need to hash that or point fingers
Wait a minute, just because people don’t agree with you does not mean they are attacking you. It’s important that you see this.
I’m not real sure what your poast was supposed to mean. You wear whatever you want.
This thread is clear proof that the vast majority of posters on this forum are christians. It would take an extreme persecution complex to believe otherwise.
You have found what helps you, don’t expect it to help me or anybody else. It fits you and that is good for you period...
Nowhere in that post did you address the ethical dilemma of a god that tortures and kills children. Claiming that people can’t just be given everything, because they have to “go about it the hard way” is a ridiculous explanation for children getting leukemia.
It's also important to see you missed the point or are attempting to stir the pot. I'll say this, in the past people have piled on Christian's that frequent OOTB. It went beyond topic discussion . If you missed it or participated, that's on you. I wont point fingers and rehash it.
You stated God tortures people. I didn't. Bad things happen to exeryone
Also, I said to explain why those bad things happen would be to quote a book you dont agree with. Humanity is it's own greatest downfall. You are a health guru. How much of the thing we eat causes sickness and disease? What about pollution? Are these factors acts of God? Or man?
There's an answer that lies halfway between my ideal and yours. Jesus gives a new direction, focusing on the here after and not now. He was put up to be killed by his own people, a week after they wanted him to be king.
Month old children almost never get cancer because of what they eat or pollution. Theu aren’t alive long enough to be exposed to carcinogens. They get it because of genetic mutations. The truth is that nature is cold and indifferent and those genetic mutations don’t care how much we love our children. If there were an omnipotent god, then that god would be responsible for that suffering and death. Religious types always have a way of refusing to contend with that, while constantly praising god for every good thing that happens to them. It’s extreme solipsism.
@Grayhead , When you think of "God", do you believe that your image of God is male? I always wonder about that because God is only referred to in the Old and New Testaments as "Father", or He, or Him, or His, or King... all masculine-specific gender references. Seems like it would have to be a male.
I can't remember exactly when it happened, but I realized that I was limiting what was divine- or what was the Source, The Creator, the Origin - as being what amounted to a cosmic human male parental figure. That just didn't seem to be enough for me.
Then I became aware that probably up until only the last 500 years at the most, Scripture and the interpretation of it was done solely by the Clergy. It was also mostly in-line with the culture of the times, which was a nobility-ruled society. Even Rome had an emperor. But, there were mostly kings and kingdoms. Average people were illiterate. So, the people were literally told exactly what to think, say, pray, and when and how to do it. That was the norm for most of recorded history... until about 300 years ago. That becomes almost a genetic behavior! My point is; We've moved beyond that over the last few centuries especially. And, when you really get down to it, only the last century have we seen the majority of the population able to read and write and therefore there's a huge shift in the collective consciousness and awareness of all of us.
I can't remember exactly when it happened, but I realized that I was limiting what was divine- or what was the Source, The Creator, the Origin - as being what amounted to a cosmic human male parental figure. That just didn't seem to be enough for me.
Then I became aware that probably up until only the last 500 years at the most, Scripture and the interpretation of it was done solely by the Clergy. It was also mostly in-line with the culture of the times, which was a nobility-ruled society. Even Rome had an emperor. But, there were mostly kings and kingdoms. Average people were illiterate. So, the people were literally told exactly what to think, say, pray, and when and how to do it. That was the norm for most of recorded history... until about 300 years ago. That becomes almost a genetic behavior! My point is; We've moved beyond that over the last few centuries especially. And, when you really get down to it, only the last century have we seen the majority of the population able to read and write and therefore there's a huge shift in the collective consciousness and awareness of all of us.
Maybe those kids who got cancer at a month old were going to grow up to do worse to others. Maybe they would have had a harder and more painful life than what they were given. Maybe they’re needed more in a different place. I know that doesn’t seem possible to those that don’t believe but for those of us that do believe, we believe that power is on a higher level of understanding than we will know in our Earthly life. It’s not explainable because the human being mind can’t fully comprehend it. Or at least that’s how I see it and it works for me.
*Said. Death pool tickets have been cashed on his account.
I happen to believe in a supreme being, but I actually believe the exact opposite of what you poasted is true. The downside of being religious if it’s all wrong, is that you waste a couple hours every Sunday. You waste time reading a fictional story over and over. But if you’re not a believer, and it turns out that God is exactly as depicted in the Bible, the Torah, or the Quran... then so what? Is that God evil enough to punish people who didn’t believe in it, when they had no proof to do so? What if God turns out to be Bigfoot, or the Loch Ness Monster, or a Martian... are we all fvcked for not believing in exactly what it really was?
lol
You don’t have to go to church. I don’t. Or, not often. I believe. To quote the Avett Brothers, me and God don’t need a middle man. I go to church a few times a year, when I’m signed up to usher. I go through the motions, sing hymns, kneel and pray, etc. I sometimes listen to the message and other times kind of daydream or go off in my own little world. Either way, when it’s over, I shake a lot of hands, have small talk and fellowship with some folks and then I go about my Sunday. It’s hardly a chore. I consider it a volunteer opportunity.
I don’t read the Bible. I’ve probably read 90% of it throughout the years but I don’t continually read it.
I have tailor made my faith to fit me. And I’m perfectly comfortable with that.
And yes, if you don’t believe and there is a God, then yeah, you’re shit out of luck. You’re Going to hell with a big red cackling devil. I hope so. It’s like a class in high school. 50% of you’re grade is class participation. You’re halfway to a perfect score just for showing up and being engaged. You’re an idiot if you don’t take advantage of that.
To answer the OP. I was born catholic. Went to catholic elementary school. I now consider the Bible to be a book of good morals, but nothing more. I think the story of the Virgin Mary giving birth is the best adultery cover up of all time. I consider organized religion to be the best racket known to man. I think organized religions had their place in times gone by, but are now obsolete.
However, I do believe that there is a higher power that has constructed the universe. I think that there is probably some sort of existence after our mortal lives. It’s not a big fluffy kingdom in the sky overseen by a Santa lookin dude, but it’s not a complete void either. God has created everything, but most of it is indirectly. It’s not the reason you passed that test in 10th grade without studying, and it’s also not the reason that 2 month old died of cancer. Maybe it has the power to have cause those things if it cared to, but it doesn’t.
However, I do believe that there is a higher power that has constructed the universe. I think that there is probably some sort of existence after our mortal lives. It’s not a big fluffy kingdom in the sky overseen by a Santa lookin dude, but it’s not a complete void either. God has created everything, but most of it is indirectly. It’s not the reason you passed that test in 10th grade without studying, and it’s also not the reason that 2 month old died of cancer. Maybe it has the power to have cause those things if it cared to, but it doesn’t.
Well, hopefully for you God is word for word exactly how you picture it. I’d hate for your hymn singing to not even qualify you for that 50% participation score.
A great deal of the tenants of the present-day organized religions were formed when humans believed in a 3-tiered Universe. We now know there is more than that.
The idea of a firmament is no longer accepted. It would seem that if you believe in literal translations of the Bible, that would include the belief in a Universe that looks like this:
The idea of a firmament is no longer accepted. It would seem that if you believe in literal translations of the Bible, that would include the belief in a Universe that looks like this:
Lurking. Nothing I can say will change one person's mind here. I'm good one on one. Groups not so much.
God does not "torture and kill children ". Evil people do.
You believe in an omnipotent god. A god that must be responsible for child cancer, and all other kinds of suffering that sends human children to early graves. Not only does that god choose not to allow that suffering, he’s the only explanation for why it would exist in the first place, if you believe that he is the ultimate architect of the universe.
Of course there isn’t actually a god. Child cancer is terrible, but it is an example of the cold indifference of nature. Disease doesn’t care about our feelings. Cancer doesn’t care about our feelings. The laws of physics don’t care what we think. But that truth is far less horrible than a malevolent omnipotent dictator that gives people horrible diseases, and causes natural disasters just to teach mankind a lesson.
There is too much order in the universe to even consider it being random. So there’s definitely a creator.
What you do from this point is your own business. I myself vascillate on more than a few beliefs in this area, but I have no doubt there is a creator.
What you do from this point is your own business. I myself vascillate on more than a few beliefs in this area, but I have no doubt there is a creator.
I feel like you are looking for a fight that isn't there based on what he has said. Maybe not though. He could attest to that.
I think anyone who attributes omnipotence to total control (especially in regards to something like causing cancer in children) not only doesn't understand faith but has made no attempt to understand it. It is like they feel like they are more intelligent than the room without attempting to realize the room is actually a thing that is there.
The one thing about atheist or non-believers that has always confused me is why they care so much. If an atheist truly didn't really care, they wouldn't really care. Too many are obsessed with this idea of there not being a God they don't believe in anyway. It makes little sense to me. I have many friends who are non-believers. We get along fine because they aren't obsessed with my faith and I'm not obsessed with their lack of it.
Omnipotence is by definition the capacity for total control. An omnipotent being would have a moral obligation to prevent necessary suffering by any reasonable ethical standard. Or at the very least not create a universe that constantly facilitates that suffering. Indifference towards unnecessary suffering is immoral.
We care because we watch the harm done by religion on a daily basis, and feel the need to push back against a group that simultaneously maintains both a dominant majority of the population and a ridiculous persecution complex about how their faith is under attack by anyone who states an opinion or argument that contradicts that faith. I believe that religion is the most dangerous form of ideology human beings have ever created. Once you make the leap to believing in a god, you can claim that anything is the will of that god. And quite often people are convinced by those claims. So convinced that they are willing to do things like launching crusades, kidnapping and torturing gay teenagers, oppressing women, or flying planes into buildings. Its not an obsession to criticize religion. Its a perfectly justifiable ethical/moral argument. I never said I don't care about religion. I care quite a lot about the consequences of religious dogmatism.
Next time just quote me or tag me instead of taking underhanded shots that are clearly aimed at me or my arguments. I won't be offended. I was raised in a christian family. I understand faith quite well actually. I've read the bible cover to cover multiple times. Have you? Most christians haven't even come close to reading the entire source material for their own ideology. You don't want to talk about child cancer? Fine. What about great floods that drown every human child on the face of the planet? That story is taught to children without a second thought towards the basic logic and morality of its content. Children are taught every day that if they don't obey god's wishes, then they'll be tortured for eternity in hell fire. That's disgusting, and totally worthy of criticism.
I really don't think coryfly was taking a shot at you. From my experience with coryfly, if he wants to talk to you, he'll definitely quote you directly. I think he was just making a general reference that indirectly included you.
ETA: well... maybe after having read his response in more detail... maybe he was, a little!
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