Awesome 33. You proved my point exactly. West = horrible finals record, but did some awesome things in his career that a lot of people should and do recognize. Thats all I'm saying.
Jordan And Finals...
- Thread starter ChapelHeeled
- Start date
For sure. I just think that MJ wins in the stats and Championships category, so there shouldn't be a debate but if you watch ESPN they drive that narrative at every opportunity. MJ's peak stats are far ahead and he accomplished more in less games played. I can't knock Lebron for longevity, I was just trying to argue that he can't catch #1 no matter how hard some talking heads try to jam it down our throats.
Put him in the Western conference and see if he goes to 7 straight finals. The Eastern conference has been weak except for maybe a couple of years by the Pavers. No way he goes to 7 straight in the Western
You mean the owner of the team wouldn't bow down to one of his employees and let them tell him how to run the franchise? The horror...
Well when you have 3 max players, due to the salary cap, the rest of your team is going to be pretty mediocre. And a rookie/passive head coach is LeBron's dream. If he has a coach that actually wants to run the team instead of letting Bron Bron do it - he gets him fired.
He certainly is - just ask him.
alabama
I'm not a Lebron hater, trust me. He's one of the best ever and will obviously go down as top 5 all-time.
I just think the talking heads that want to put him, or anyone at this point in time ahead of MJ is silly.
I'm not a Lebron hater, trust me. He's one of the best ever and will obviously go down as top 5 all-time.
I just think the talking heads that want to put him, or anyone at this point in time ahead of MJ is silly.
That's a soft argument. Who did MJ face? The knicks? And the teams he faced in the finals were the lakers that were past their prime and on their way out, the blazers who never made it back, had one star, the sonics, and the jazz who started hornacek, russel and Ostertag? The suns were solid though. Bron had to take out the pistons when they were still damn good to get to his first finals, had to beat the Celtics with their big three, and the bulls when they were very good with rose who was the MVP. In the first finals he faced the spurs dynasty, then the mavs who had dirk as mvp and a host of other good players, the spurs dynasty again, the freaking warriors without kyrie or love.
I guess I just don't like the argument of trying to prop up your vote as best ever by trying to marginalize who the other guy played. Clearly you can do it both ways depending on who you're vouching for.
Sonics and Jazz were very good teams, Bad Boy Pistons, end of the Celtics dynasty in the East as well, Knicks, Pacers and Orlando with Penny and Shaq. East was better back then than it is now. Both played some good and some bad teams, both were the best players in the league so they made/make it look easier than it is.
Knicks,Pacers, and how much did u watch to not know how hard it was to get past the Bad Boys of Detroit and the Jordan Rules. The Bulls with Rose was nothing special so they don't need to be thrown in.
From 1991 - 1998...
Magic, Worthy, Ewing, Reggie, Clyde, Barkley, Isiah, Dumars, Rodman, Alonzo, Penny, Shaq, Payton, Kemp, Stockton, Malone.
That's like 15 HOF's.
I'm with you brother but with a diff mind set. MJ transformed the game makeup of the game. He branded bball, clothes, shoes..... NO person IMO has had the kind of impact on the game like him. I know you know this, and one would think these talkers could pull their head out of their rear ends and remember the forest. LOL
Duncan, Parker, ginobli, dirk, KD, Russ, Harden, curry, klay, pierce, ray Allen, KG, wade, billups, and not counting rose, who was an MVP.
Splitting hairs. Fun argument though.
He lost to those Spurs teams (Duncan, Parker, Manu) more times (2) than he beat them (1). He lost to the Celtics both times he played them when their big 3 (Allen, Pierce, and KG) was still good, he finally beat their old asses in 2011 with his younger big 3 in Miami. He was 1-1 against Billups, he's 1-1 against steph/klay, he lost to Dirk the only time he played him in the playoffs, he's never played against Wade in the playoffs, and Derrick Rose is a joke who isn't in the same category as the rest of these guys.
The win against the Thunder was a good one, even if Russ and Harden were younger and not yet close to the players they are now.
Worthy and magic were well passed their primes. The bad boys were washed up, and though yes they were still in their twenties they were never the same. That blazers team outside of Clyde was a joke. I loved that suns team, but it was Barkley as the only legit HOF. Those jazz teams were so alarmingly unathletic. He never had to face Hakeem. Penny and Shaq were just starting their careers. I also didn't even bring up Melo, Paul George or other guys that are or were in their prime when bron bron took them out. On the same token you could shoehorn Dominque into your argument or Mark Price and Daugherty.
Dude, Worthy and MJ went to college together so the washed up term is just stupid. Not that big of an age difference. Blazers had Terry Porter, Cliff Robinson,Jerome Kersey, Rod Strickland. You know, a bunch of nobody's.
I said they were passed their primes. True statement. Additionally worthy was completely banged up with an ankle injury, that he suffered in the WCF, in that series, had to exit game 4 and didn't even play game 5. Magic retired the next year for obvious reasons.
In the end, I'll take the Greatest ever over a whiny ass LeBron.
Magic was the MVP of the league in 1991
Blazers went to 2 out of 3 finals.
Pistons went to 3 straight finals
Losing to the Mavericks after you stacked your team is hilarious.
Lebron is great. Jordan is the greatest.
People are actually arguing LeBron over MJ? The man who needed to form a "big 3" to win a championship? Then form another "big 3" in order to go back "home"?. He is from Akron, not Cleveland btw. The man who has played in a terrible Eastern Conference since he has been in the league? You can throw that stupid final appearances out the window. Remember when that amazing Nets team went to back to back finals? Come on people. Outside of the Sheed Pistons and the big 3 three Celtics, he has had no competition in the east. I also read a comment, that the first go around in Cleveland the owner put him in a terrible position? Um what? LeBron is the one who wanted to bring in Shaq and his 20 million salary, Antwan Jamison and his 18 or so million. Larry Hughes.. LeBron WAS the reason they had no $$ to put more pieces around him, with this stupid demands of over paid, over the hill players.
Important note that LeBron might have 5 elite years remaining. His book is far from done being written.
I think the argument can be made LeBron has accomplished more through age 32 than MJ did.
I think what will eventually kill the argument is we never saw MJ fail in the finals the way LeBron did against the Mavs. I don't have an issue losing in the finals because MJ lost more 1st round series than LeBron (who has never lost a 1st round series), yet no one really holds that against MJ. But to fail at the biggest stage the way LeBron did, compared to MJ who was as flawless as one can be will be held against him when history compares the two.
LeBron's the best I've ever seen. I've never seen a player do more with less like he did in Cleveland part 1. I've never seen a player that carries the responsibility that he carries (Cavs go from 60 wins to 15 wins after he leaves, Heat go from annual finals to a fringe playoff team still having D-Wade, Cavs go from #1 overall pick to NBA finals when LeBron returns). Bulls were around a 50 win team when MJ retired for the first time.
But history doesn't remember the details.
I think the argument can be made LeBron has accomplished more through age 32 than MJ did.
I think what will eventually kill the argument is we never saw MJ fail in the finals the way LeBron did against the Mavs. I don't have an issue losing in the finals because MJ lost more 1st round series than LeBron (who has never lost a 1st round series), yet no one really holds that against MJ. But to fail at the biggest stage the way LeBron did, compared to MJ who was as flawless as one can be will be held against him when history compares the two.
LeBron's the best I've ever seen. I've never seen a player do more with less like he did in Cleveland part 1. I've never seen a player that carries the responsibility that he carries (Cavs go from 60 wins to 15 wins after he leaves, Heat go from annual finals to a fringe playoff team still having D-Wade, Cavs go from #1 overall pick to NBA finals when LeBron returns). Bulls were around a 50 win team when MJ retired for the first time.
But history doesn't remember the details.
Apparently your history doesn't remember Chris Bosh being diagnosed with a serious condition the year LeBron left, missing the entire 2nd half of the season. The following year, they were 3rd in the east with 48 wins, with Bosh still dealing with blood clots.
LeBron James returned to a Cleveland team that had former number 1 overall pick Kyrie Irving. Used 2 other #1 overall picks to land Kevin Love. Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters were top 5 picks. Give me a break with your history doesn't remember the details.
My history tells me Jordan would have probably won 8 titles in a row, if he didn't step away from the game briefly.
You mean when Michael Jordan...... Quit for 2 years? Quit. Different topic.
LeBron won the east virtually without BOsh one year in the playoffs due to an abdominal injury. LeBron also won game 7 against San Antonio when Bosh put up 0 points.
LeBron would have won the east just playing with D-Wade... He did it before.
Ok, let's analyze Kyrie and Love. How many games did Kevin Love win before joining LeBron? His high in Minnesota was 40-42 when Kevin Love was at his absolute peak. Kyrie's high win total was 33-49 before LeBron.
And who knows if MJ wins 8 in a row. MJ went 6 games in the NBA finals in 5-of-6 title seasons... So it's not like those Bulls teams were sweeping their way to the title.
Hell, if the refs call the push off on MJ in game 6 1998, Bulls are playing a game 7 on the road. And aside from LeBron last year, no one really wins road game 7's in the NBA finals.
Jordan quit for 2 years? The man wanted to pursue a dream of his fathers, after he got murdered. Again, in your words, history doesn't remember the details. Also, you seem to have a little something against MJ
So now Chris Bosh is irrelevant? Wonder why he wanted him in Miami so bad then?
Do the Cavs win a championship without Kyrie Irving last year?
So now we are taking away from MJs titles, because he won in 6 games or more? Is this stuff for real? Your boy HAS been swept in a finals. I would give it a 99% the Bulls would have won 8 in a row.... agaisnt better competition.
I think Sjunk000 is too young to have even seen MJ play or the garbage he spews would not come from his keypad
MJ did quit for 2 years. If that doesn't matter to you, that's fine but if people say LeBron quit on Cleveland when they lost to Boston, isn't it a fair thing to point out that LeBron quit on his team for 2 seasons?
I don't know what your point on Bosh is... He had some good moments during his Heat career and was an important part of their run... But had as many invisible games as high impact games. In the playoffs with LeBron, Bosh was pretty much a role player.
Bosh in 2011 finals averaged: 14.6/9.4 on 45% shooting.
Bosh in 2012 finals averaged: 11.9/8.9 on 46% shooting.
Bosh in 2013 finals averaged: 14.0/5.2 on 55% shooting.
Fine, but role player numbers.
They definitely don't win without Kyrie, but again, I don't get what the point of that is... Kyrie is the impactful/winning player he is right now because of LeBron. You think his isolation heavy, offensive based game would work in the playoffs without LeBron? 0 chance.
So now we are taking away from MJs titles, because he won in 6 games or more? Is this stuff for real? Your boy HAS been swept in a finals. I would give it a 99% the Bulls would have won 8 in a row.... agaisnt better competition.
I'm not taking any of it away. I'm saying since he played in really competitive finals, there's no guarantee he wins 8 in a row.
LeBron was swept in the finals.... As a 21 year old.... With teammates of: Larry Hughes, Daniel Gibson, Drew Goodon, Big Z.... Against a Spurs dynasty... Ok, I'll choose not to really hold that one against him.
I would also argue that these Warriors are better than any team MJ beat during his run. No disrespect to the Lakers, Blazers, Suns, Sonics or Jazz... But the NBA is different today and since 3's are worth more than 2's, today's Warriors team has such a numerical advantage going into every game.
I also think NBA championships differ from year to year. LeBron winning game 7 last year in Golden State was arguably the biggest win in NBA history. He and the Cavs come back from a 1-3 deficit, win game 7 on the road against the greatest regular season team in NBA history and if the Warriors were to have won last year, they were arguably the best team in NBA history. The fact that LeBron won last year's title on the road in a game 7 (to me) means more than any MJ title. Everyone may disagree with me, but again, that was perhaps the biggest win in NBA history.
I said this already but I'll say it again...
I'm not saying that LeBron's legacy is greater than MJ's. MJ had a better career than LeBron. I'm saying I think LeBron has accomplished more through age 32. Whether you think LeBron's better, that's up to everyone... But LeBron has more MVP's, the same number of NBA titles, the same number of NBA finals MVP's, more finals appearances, less first round losses.
LeBron's career is about 70% over? He still has time to make his mark on history. Will he catch 6 rings? Probably not, but is it completely out of the question he surpasses MJ? It's absolutely not out of the question because he's probably surpassed him if you compare each other through age 32 in the NBA.
This is like 20 pages of tiresome BS. "LeBron winning game 7 agaisnt GS" I just showed you Kyrie Irvings shot in game 7. Not only that, better win then any win MJ had? MJ WAS NEVER AN UNDERDOG AFTER HIS FIRST TITLE. . You are all over the place man. "Im not saying LeBron is better" then you go on a 20 page rant defending LeBron. Ok bud, I will respect your opinion.
This is an invalid argument. LeBron had a three year head start. Any argument based on age means absolutely nothing. Years played is what matters.
How do you cite age as a parameter of how to measure their accomplishments instead of actual NBA seasons? LeBron has played more games than MJ ever did and still trails in all major categories/accomplishments.
Also for someone who has cited advanced stats before SJung you fail to make reference to the fact that all advanced metrics favour MJ, career and peak, it isn't close and LeBron will still have his declining years left (Max Kellerman has made this argument numerous times and he is objective).
You also cited Bosh's stats as good role player numbers but I watched Bosh for years in Toronto and he was a stud top 15-20 player at worst. He went to play third fiddle and his usage rate and stats all took a hit. He was also their key player to a lot of what they did on D but that doesn't fit your narrative. Look at how Klay's stats this playoffs and since Durant has been back have taken a hit. Only one ball to go around but I'll bet if Lebron beats GSW you won't be calling Klay a role player even though you referred to Bosh as one.
Also for someone who has cited advanced stats before SJung you fail to make reference to the fact that all advanced metrics favour MJ, career and peak, it isn't close and LeBron will still have his declining years left (Max Kellerman has made this argument numerous times and he is objective).
You also cited Bosh's stats as good role player numbers but I watched Bosh for years in Toronto and he was a stud top 15-20 player at worst. He went to play third fiddle and his usage rate and stats all took a hit. He was also their key player to a lot of what they did on D but that doesn't fit your narrative. Look at how Klay's stats this playoffs and since Durant has been back have taken a hit. Only one ball to go around but I'll bet if Lebron beats GSW you won't be calling Klay a role player even though you referred to Bosh as one.
IF...he has 5 elite years left after all of these minutes he has on his body then he simply isn't human and we need to stop comparing him to any human. If he gives us 5 more seasons like this past one then there is no argument, he's the greatest.
That said..
He can't do this much longer. I think we start to see a major breakdown in his body soon. It's not a knock on him, it's just I'm taking father time's resume over anyone's.
Always consider the source. SWrong has a history of UNC and MJ hate on here.
I do admire his ability to convince himself he is being "objective" though. This might be his best attribute.
MJ is the GOAT! I know because even when he misspeaks it turns into millions! LeBron can't even tell anyone to drink Sprite! (and I am a really big LBJ fan! I hope he destroys the GSW, but he better finish off Boston before those peeps start believing they can win!)
I do admire his ability to convince himself he is being "objective" though. This might be his best attribute.
MJ is the GOAT! I know because even when he misspeaks it turns into millions! LeBron can't even tell anyone to drink Sprite! (and I am a really big LBJ fan! I hope he destroys the GSW, but he better finish off Boston before those peeps start believing they can win!)
team game...which were 2-guards?....mj didnt do it by himself...he had a big 3 and role players.....pippen/grant...pippen/kukoc...pippen/rodman..........lbj current comp will be future HOF as well........mj the goat...lbj "tbrn"..the best right now
team game...which were 2-guards?....mj didnt do it by himself...he had a big 3 and role players.....pippen/grant...pippen/kukoc...pippen/rodman..........lbj current comp will be future HOF as well........mj the goat...lbj "tbrn"..the best right now
Let's be real, MJ did not have a big 3, the term didn't exist for a reason. Kukoc and Rodman? You're going to compare those guys to a prime Bosh? Even Pippen was not better than a prime DWade. I do agree though, MJ GOAT, LBJ best of this generation and top 2-5 all time depending how this all shakes out.
I think it's wrong to call that quitting. He retired to pursue other interests. And he left after a championship, not because he was pissed off that his team wasn't good enough.
What is quitting is what Bron Bron did last night. Up 21 points against a garbage Celtics team without their best player, on his home floor. Bron Bron goes full magician and has a disappearing act for the ages and somehow grasps defeat from the jaws of victory. 11 points and 6 TOs. After that laugher, I think this debate is o-v-e-r.
Absolutely, MJ is a former teammate of his new best bud, Dennis Rodman.
It's absolutely valid to compare age... LeBron had a 3 year head start on MJ because he was better than MJ during their 18-21 year old years. Just because MJ didn't play in the NBA and LeBron did, doesn't make it invalid. In fact, that should work in LeBron's favor.
Pippen the 2 reg season years without MJ:
93-94: 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.9 spg, 0.8 bpg. 49% FG shooter
94-95: 21.4 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.9 spg, 1.1 bpg. 48% FG shooter
Do you know how many seasons in NBA history a player put up: 22.0 pts, 8.0 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.0 spg?
3 times (MJ, Larry Bird, Scottie Pippen)
http://www.basketball-reference.com...4comp=gt&c4val=2.0&c6mult=1.0&order_by=player
I have no idea why Rodman isn't considered a big 3. Rebounding might be the second most important thing in basketball and Rodman was the best rebounder since Wilt? Kukoc at that point was the best European player in the NBA? Not calling him a superstar/elite player, but he was really solid.
LeBron was horrendous last night. 100%. I don't think that matters in the big picture as long as they win and if they win it all. But he was horrendous last night.
Also, MJ quit. Pursuing other interests is just a euphemism for quitting. I don't have an issue for MJ quitting, but if we're adding up everything, MJ quitting should be a negative to his basketball legacy shouldn't it?
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