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Jordan And Finals...

SJung851 said:
Just because MJ didn't play in the NBA and LeBron did, doesn't make it invalid. In fact, that should work in LeBron's favor.
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Of course it makes it invalid. You can't say someone has accomplished more at the same age when they have been given more time to accomplish it. LeBron has had three more years to accomplish what he has accomplished. I'm not sure why I would even need to explain this to an adult.
 
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MJ also won an Olympic Gold both as an amateur and a professional. He aqlso owns an NCAA Title... So, LeBron will not ever do either one now but Jordan also has back to back (almost) three-peats . Lebron may never get one...
 
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SJung851 said:
It's absolutely valid to compare age... LeBron had a 3 year head start on MJ because he was better than MJ during their 18-21 year old years. Just because MJ didn't play in the NBA and LeBron did, doesn't make it invalid. In fact, that should work in LeBron's favor.


Pippen the 2 reg season years without MJ:
93-94: 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.9 spg, 0.8 bpg. 49% FG shooter
94-95: 21.4 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.9 spg, 1.1 bpg. 48% FG shooter

Do you know how many seasons in NBA history a player put up: 22.0 pts, 8.0 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.0 spg?
3 times (MJ, Larry Bird, Scottie Pippen)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&force:pos_is=1&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=22&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=8&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=5&c4stat=stl_per_g&c4comp=gt&c4val=2.0&c6mult=1.0&order_by=player

I have no idea why Rodman isn't considered a big 3. Rebounding might be the second most important thing in basketball and Rodman was the best rebounder since Wilt? Kukoc at that point was the best European player in the NBA? Not calling him a superstar/elite player, but he was really solid.


LeBron was horrendous last night. 100%. I don't think that matters in the big picture as long as they win and if they win it all. But he was horrendous last night.

Also, MJ quit. Pursuing other interests is just a euphemism for quitting. I don't have an issue for MJ quitting, but if we're adding up everything, MJ quitting should be a negative to his basketball legacy shouldn't it?
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The man tells you MJ didn't have a big 3, and you give him Pippen stats? We know Pippen was great also. I don't think you realize how good Bosh, Wade, Irving and Love actually are, and I am sorry for that. We can play with stats all day and get all history.

Wade had a 30, 5 and 5 season. Only 11 players have accomplished that in NBA history (MJ has 6 of those btw)

Wade is also 1 of 14 players in the last 27 years to average 30ppg in a season

Just examples of stats I can look up, and put the players in select company.
 
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SJung851 said:
LeBron had a 3 year head start on MJ because he was better than MJ during their 18-21 year old years.
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I'm not saying whether you're right or wrong on their 18-21 year old abilities, but this is just such a disingenuous argument. LeBron didn't have a 3 year head start on MJ because he was any better than him. He had the 3 year head start because the landscape of the league had changed to where kids were coming out of HS to go to the league. When MJ was in HS, no one was going straight to the league.

SJung851 said:
Also, MJ quit. Pursuing other interests is just a euphemism for quitting. I don't have an issue for MJ quitting, but if we're adding up everything, MJ quitting should be a negative to his basketball legacy shouldn't it?
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I don't think MJ's "quitting" is as big a detriment to his legacy as LeBron's is. MJ was a 3 time defending champion and Finals MVP. He was at the top of the NBA world and had been for awhile. He didn't quit on his team because they weren't getting him where he wanted to be.

LeBron on the other hand quit on the Cavs the first time around (there's absolutely no other way to explain that). They weren't winning it all and he knew it - so he flew the coop. Then, after a demoralizing Finals loss against the Spurs, LeBron then quits on the Heat because he realizes Bosh and Wade are washed up by that point (but the marketing genius in his circle successfully played this off as a "return home" to all the morons who bought it, instead of what it was - an abandonment of yet another team when he realized titles weren't in the future).
 
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Hark_The_Sound_2010 said:
I'm not saying whether you're right or wrong on their 18-21 year old abilities, but this is just such a disingenuous argument. LeBron didn't have a 3 year head start on MJ because he was any better than him. He had the 3 year head start because the landscape of the league had changed to where kids were coming out of HS to go to the league. When MJ was in HS, no one was going straight to the league.



I don't think MJ's "quitting" is as big a detriment to his legacy as LeBron's is. MJ was a 3 time defending champion and Finals MVP. He was at the top of the NBA world and had been for awhile. He didn't quit on his team because they weren't getting him where he wanted to be.

LeBron on the other hand quit on the Cavs the first time around (there's absolutely no other way to explain that). They weren't winning it all and he knew it - so he flew the coop. Then, after a demoralizing Finals loss against the Spurs, LeBron then quits on the Heat because he realizes Bosh and Wade are washed up by that point (but the marketing genius in his circle successfully played this off as a "return home" to all the morons who bought it, instead of what it was - an abandonment of yet another team when he realized titles weren't in the future).
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Exactly
 
tarh33ls said:
Let's be real, MJ did not have a big 3, the term didn't exist for a reason. Kukoc and Rodman? You're going to compare those guys to a prime Bosh? Even Pippen was not better than a prime DWade. I do agree though, MJ GOAT, LBJ best of this generation and top 2-5 all time depending how this all shakes out.
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I disagree....jordan had a Big3..BIG3 name might didnt exist....but the premise did...lakers magic/kareem/worthy...celtics bird/chief mchale...pistons thomas/dumars/laimbeer....rockets dream/thorpe/insert any guy...dream/clyde/horry....jordan/pippen/grant.....jordan/pippen/kukoc...jordan/pippen/rodman......rodman defended and rebounded while mentally disrupting the opposing teams pf (malone 2x)..kukoc came in w/ a lot of fanfare and really didnt put up bad #'s considering jordan was good for 30ppg and pippen 20-25ppg....pippen is a top 50 greatest and probably greatest SF ever imo..a prime scottie pippen was the man and guarded multiple positions
 
I agree that Big 3's have been around for ages, but Grant and Kukoc were NOT worthy of the title. I loved the Bulls since I was a big MJ fan, but these guys were role players who were elevated by the brilliance of MJ, period! Pippen I will grant was a potential all time great, but when it came time to be the man after MJ left.....he wilted like dehydrated flowers! Grant played his role to perfection, but couldn't make his own shot and Kukoc was as dumb as a bag of hammers! MJ had to get in Kukoc's face for many reasons including lack of effort and being out of position repeatedly! Matter of fact: the bulls front office almost screwed up the team by trying to pay Kukoc before Grant, MJ, and Pippen!

Finally, how many of the old-time Big 3's did MJ send home?
 
Pippen the 2 reg season years without MJ:
93-94: 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.9 spg, 0.8 bpg. 49% FG shooter
94-95: 21.4 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.9 spg, 1.1 bpg. 48% FG shooter

took the knicks to 7 games in the 2nd round and magic to 6 games...eventual teams that made the finals those seasons

horace grant was a double /double guy...good for about 15/10 and tough defense
 
Never cared about the whole LeBron vs MJ thing. Don't know why anyone does. I'm just glad I was fortunate enough to watch them both play.
 
Pippen was a great player no doubt. Never said he wasn't. He amassed great numbers during the regular season and when his team needed him the most, he wilted. I watched the games and do not have to rely on google! Horace Grant was a double/double guy and most of both doubles were because of the attention MJ demanded or Pippen demanded. I love Grant because he was tough, skilled, and a perfect complement. But he was not the talent of McHale, Parrish, Love, Irving, etc.

LBJ and MJ have a great deal of similarity, but there is one main difference. MJ had the will of an assassin and few have ever matched his killer instinct. Kobe had it, but he lacked the ability to get others to raise their level. A team with MJ on it would never let up enough to give away a game to a team they had broken.

I'm done here since this is one of those things that can't really be decided. Peeps will believe what they will and comparing eras is difficult!
 
coolwaterunc said:
Never cared about the whole LeBron vs MJ thing. Don't know why anyone does. I'm just glad I was fortunate enough to watch them both play.
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I'm actually mostly in this boat. I'm really glad I'm watching LeBron at his peak.

But I'm 100% rooting for LeBron to surpass MJ's accomplishments so I'm definitely a little biased in leBron's favor.
 
BOOGIEMAN1914 said:
Pippen the 2 reg season years without MJ:
93-94: 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.9 spg, 0.8 bpg. 49% FG shooter
94-95: 21.4 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.9 spg, 1.1 bpg. 48% FG shooter

took the knicks to 7 games in the 2nd round and magic to 6 games...eventual teams that made the finals those seasons

horace grant was a double /double guy...good for about 15/10 and tough defense
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Should we start throwing up numbers of Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie in their seasons without Lebron? That argument would look badly if we did.
 
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TPFKAPFS said:
Pippen was a great player no doubt. Never said he wasn't. He amassed great numbers during the regular season and when his team needed him the most, he wilted. I watched the games and do not have to rely on google! Horace Grant was a double/double guy and most of both doubles were because of the attention MJ demanded or Pippen demanded. I love Grant because he was tough, skilled, and a perfect complement. But he was not the talent of McHale, Parrish, Love, Irving, etc.

LBJ and MJ have a great deal of similarity, but there is one main difference. MJ had the will of an assassin and few have ever matched his killer instinct. Kobe had it, but he lacked the ability to get others to raise their level. A team with MJ on it would never let up enough to give away a game to a team they had broken.

I'm done here since this is one of those things that can't really be decided. Peeps will believe what they will and comparing eras is difficult!
Click to expand...
TPFKAPFS said:
Pippen was a great player no doubt. Never said he wasn't. He amassed great numbers during the regular season and when his team needed him the most, he wilted. I watched the games and do not have to rely on google! Horace Grant was a double/double guy and most of both doubles were because of the attention MJ demanded or Pippen demanded. I love Grant because he was tough, skilled, and a perfect complement. But he was not the talent of McHale, Parrish, Love, Irving, etc.

LBJ and MJ have a great deal of similarity, but there is one main difference. MJ had the will of an assassin and few have ever matched his killer instinct. Kobe had it, but he lacked the ability to get others to raise their level. A team with MJ on it would never let up enough to give away a game to a team they had broken.

I'm done here since this is one of those things that can't really be decided. Peeps will believe what they will and comparing eras is difficult!
Click to expand...

So he wilted in game 5 of the 91 NBA Finals?

What about game 7 in the ECF against Indiana in 98.

Or when he hurt his back and came back and played in game 6 of the 1998 Finals

Or led the come back against Portland in Game 6 of the 92 Finals when Jordan was on the bench.

I don't think you watched the Bulls the way you think.
He had some early questionable moments. By 1991 that was in the past.
 
BOOGIEMAN1914 said:
I disagree....jordan had a Big3..BIG3 name might didnt exist....but the premise did...lakers magic/kareem/worthy...celtics bird/chief mchale...pistons thomas/dumars/laimbeer....rockets dream/thorpe/insert any guy...dream/clyde/horry....jordan/pippen/grant.....jordan/pippen/kukoc...jordan/pippen/rodman......rodman defended and rebounded while mentally disrupting the opposing teams pf (malone 2x)..kukoc came in w/ a lot of fanfare and really didnt put up bad #'s considering jordan was good for 30ppg and pippen 20-25ppg....pippen is a top 50 greatest and probably greatest SF ever imo..a prime scottie pippen was the man and guarded multiple positions
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Greatest SF ever? Not even close....are you gonna compare Kukoc and 2 time all star Rodman at the end of his career to 11 time All-Star (would have been more before the illness), gold medal winner Chris Bosh? Plus MJ didn't put that team together, he didn't orchestrate that in FA...completely different situations and Wade and Bosh are far better than Pippen and Kukoc/Rodman/Grant or whoever. People forgot how good Wade was already?
 
dadika13 said:
Should we start throwing up numbers of Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie in their seasons without Lebron? That argument would look badly if we did.
Click to expand...

Its shocking some of these people think so lowly of those guys. Superstars with or without LeBron.
 
BOOGIEMAN1914 said:
I disagree....jordan had a Big3..BIG3 name might didnt exist....but the premise did...lakers magic/kareem/worthy...celtics bird/chief mchale...pistons thomas/dumars/laimbeer....rockets dream/thorpe/insert any guy...dream/clyde/horry....jordan/pippen/grant.....jordan/pippen/kukoc...jordan/pippen/rodman......rodman defended and rebounded while mentally disrupting the opposing teams pf (malone 2x)..kukoc came in w/ a lot of fanfare and really didnt put up bad #'s considering jordan was good for 30ppg and pippen 20-25ppg....pippen is a top 50 greatest and probably greatest SF ever imo..a prime scottie pippen was the man and guarded multiple positions
Click to expand...
 
Sk1310 said:
Its shocking some of these people think so lowly of those guys. Superstars with or without LeBron.
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I think we do that with MJ's teammates too. Pippen finished 3rd in the MVP and 1st team all NBA in 1993-1994, 1st team all defense in 1993-1994 without MJ. Was 1st team all NBA and all defense in 1994-1995 without MJ. Pippen was also a very questionable call away from likely going to the east final. Pippen was nearly good enough in his prime to carry the Bulls to be perhaps a championship team.

Love and Kyrie by themselves couldn't get their teams to an 8 seed.

Who are today's equals to when MJ had: Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc?

Kawhi is probably today's Pippen.
Is Andre Drummond today's Rodman?
Is Porzingis (at his current state, not what he might become) today's Kukoc?

That's who MJ had at 32-34.

LeBron's isn't playing with that supporting cast. But Kyrie was incredible tonight. Props to him.
 
SJung851 said:
I think we do that with MJ's teammates too. Pippen finished 3rd in the MVP and 1st team all NBA in 1993-1994, 1st team all defense in 1993-1994 without MJ. Was 1st team all NBA and all defense in 1994-1995 without MJ. Pippen was also a very questionable call away from likely going to the east final. Pippen was nearly good enough in his prime to carry the Bulls to be perhaps a championship team.

Love and Kyrie by themselves couldn't get their teams to an 8 seed.

Who are today's equals to when MJ had: Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc?

Kawhi is probably today's Pippen.
Is Andre Drummond today's Rodman?
Is Porzingis (at his current state, not what he might become) today's Kukoc?

That's who MJ had at 32-34.

LeBron's isn't playing with that supporting cast. But Kyrie was incredible tonight. Props to him.
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Your player comparisons are terrible. Rodman was old and 6'7 averaging 5 and 15 and you're comparing him to a 7 footer 14 and 14 guy in Andre Drummond who is hitting his prime?

Pippen can't score as well as Kawhi, equal defenders so that one seems okay. Kukoc to Porzingis?? Did you ever watch Kukoc play??? You're comparing a below average defender 14-4-4 guy to a 7'3 do everything big man in Kristaps who went for 18-7 and 2 blocks, has yet to hit his prime and will make many all-star teams, while Kukoc didn't make one. Kristaps today is so far ahead of Kukoc it's laughable.

Dude just admit that you didn't watch MJ play because your player comparisons are pretty terrible and they just serve to prop up MJ's teammates. If you did watch him, then I don't understand your terrible comparisons.

Bosh and Wade in their primes were better than any two teammates MJ played with, ever. That super team lost multiple finals. One to an average at best Mavs team and the other to an aging Spurs team that defeated them by a record finals margin. What's your excuse for that? Lebron's teammates have made far more all-star games and won more accolades than MJ's and that's by a wide wide margin.

Wade was better than Pippen and won a title without Lebron, so citing Pippen's accolades doesn't mean shit when Lebron played with Wade who is better than Pippen was and Bosh who was better than a very very old Rodman.
 
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tarh33ls said:
Dude just admit that you didn't watch MJ play because your player comparisons are pretty terrible and they just serve to prop up MJ's teammates. If you did watch him, then I don't understand your terrible comparisons.
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This is very true
 
tarh33ls said:
That super team lost multiple finals. One to an average at best Mavs team and the other to an aging Spurs team that defeated them by a record finals margin. .
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You're severely underselling that Mavs team. I get you're trying to make your case but give me a break.
 
Speaking of the first half, why on Earth was he in with 3 fouls? I expect Lue will learn from this mistake pretty quickly though. Or maybe he knew that LBJ would have to commit murder to foul out.

The only thing I would put in LBJ's favor is he hasn't had a good coach yet! (but this is probably because he doesn't want one)
 
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Also Spo was and still is a good coach, he's actually pretty underrated. Lebron clashes with nearly all of his coaches and front office personnel unless you just let him run the entire show.
 
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tarh33ls said:
Also Spo was and still is a good coach, he's actually pretty underrated. Lebron clashes with nearly all of his coaches and front office personnel unless you just let him run the entire show.
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MJ ran out 3 coaches in 3 years too. Many of the greats clash with coaches and management... Especially in basketball.
 
SJung851 said:
MJ ran out 3 coaches in 3 years too. Many of the greats clash with coaches and management... Especially in basketball.
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Not coaches he won titles with. Lebron clashed frequently with Spo and Riley and they did everything to make that team competitive.
 
HeelzLover said:
No they just sucked
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Ok... Then these are the coaches LeBron "got fired"

Paul Silas, Mike Brown and David Blatt.

Silas and Blatt haven't and won't sniff the NBA again. Mike Brown hasn't really distinguished himself as a top notch coach.
 
You also failed to address the terrible player comparisons you made. Since MJ was clearly playing with the late 90s versions of Kawhi, Kristaps and Andre Drummond, it's a wonder they ever lost a game! Come on man.
 
SJung851 said:
Ok... Then these are the coaches LeBron "got fired"

Paul Silas, Mike Brown and David Blatt.

Silas and Blatt haven't and won't sniff the NBA again. Mike Brown hasn't really distinguished himself as a top notch coach.
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Silas was/is old, Blatt was hired b4 Whiny went back to Cleveland. How long did he last there when Whiny came back? Breakfast and lunch maybe? He feuded with Blatt until he got his lil buddy in place.
 
This cat Swhatever is obviously not old enough to have seen MJ play. How can u compare the 2 when u haven't witnessed both during their prime? Mist be googling to get your info
 
tarh33ls said:
You also failed to address the terrible player comparisons you made. Since MJ was clearly playing with the late 90s versions of Kawhi, Kristaps and Andre Drummond, it's a wonder they ever lost a game! Come on man.
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Well I think Pippen and Kawhi are similar. Kawhi is a better shooter, Pippen is a little more skilled as a passer and playmaker and Pippen is probably slightly better defensively and as a rebounder. So they're equals.

I don't think the Kukoc to present day Kristaps is that far off. Kukoc was 18/7/5 post Jordan. He wasn't efficient, but raw numbers are pretty similar when Kukoc was the focal point of the offense. Porzingis will without question be better, but neither in my comparison are players that impact winning that much. Kukoc is a much better passer and IMO was a better defender, but that's not saying much. Who's the proper comparison? A more skilled Ryan Anderson? I think that's slighting Kukoc a bit.

Andre Drummond is a somewhat polarizing NBA player. Really good raw numbers but analytics hates him. He actually doesn't play late game for a couple reasons. #1 he can't make free throws, but Aaron Baynes is statistically a better rim defender. But it may be a bad comparison... So who's most like Dennis Rodman? Ben Wallace was the answer, but he's no longer in the NBA.

Also, give LeBron the Phil Jackson of this era (Popovich) and LeBron probably has a really good chance of having a better career.
 
HeelzLover said:
Silas was/is old, Blatt was hired b4 Whiny went back to Cleveland. How long did he last there when Whiny came back? Breakfast and lunch maybe? He feuded with Blatt until he got his lil buddy in place.
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I don't like to do this, but I will.

I talked to Brendan Haywood at work last year... He did some stuff for ESPN's NBA playoff coverage. He told us multiple stories of David Blatt not being able to diagram a play because his hands were shaking so much.

He shared one specific story of drawing up a play for a player that wasn't on the floor. His assistants went to him and asked him, do you want player X subbed into the game? Blatt hesitated, said no, then continued drawing up the play for the player that wasn't on the floor.

Haywood told us this was fairly common during his year with the Cavs and said he's the worst coach he played for.

That's not from me.

I'm not taking sides, but if those stories are true, I can understand why LeBron would feud with that. Remember when David Blatt in the playoffs designed a buzzer beating shot against the Bulls? And had LeBron as the inbounder? LeBron had the scrap the play and nailed the buzzer beater and that was perhaps the turning point game in the series.
 
tarh33ls said:
He clashed with Spo and Riley and left the Heat in the lurch.
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Was that a Spoelstra/Riley thing... Or was it LeBron seeing an aging D-Wade who was physically breaking down.

We've heard Riley's side of the story and LeBron could've definitely handled it better.

But if LeBron knew that Cleveland had Kyrie and had the assets to acquire K-Love.... Why is anyone blaming him for winning?

Remember who the Heat's top free agent signing to convince LeBron to stay? Josh McRoberts.
 
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