KD: Kold Steel
- Thread starter ChapelHeeled
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I agree. He is just a diffrent animal than what we have seen in the past. 7 footer with guard skills=unguardable
I know no one is going to hear it after that... But.
LeBron played 45:37 tonight.
Cavs 45:37 on the floor: +7
Cavs 2:23 off the floor: -12
In less than 200 seconds with LeBron off the floor, the Cavs couldn't stay within 10 of the Warriors.
I don't think LeBron handled the last minute perfectly but I really have only 1 play I had a big problem with... When LeBron settled for a fade away jumper after Kyrie's offensive rebound. Should LeBron have passed the ball to Korver? Most would say no, but Korver got an open corner 3 and led the NBA in 3pt shooting percentage... I say he needs to nail that shot. If he does, Cleveland likely wins and LeBron has a 40pt triple double game and this isn't a thread. Kyrie's individual one-on-one greatness cost him in the end.
Lot of ifs... Maybe those are excuses.
Durant's nasty though. Good for him. He was brilliant.
I just think it's funny that everyone sh***ing on LeBron when the truth is Golden State realized to clinch beating LeBron they needed to sign the second best player in the NBA... And for Durant to get a win, he needed to sign with the team that won 73 wins.
But yea, Durant is better than LeBron...
LeBron played 45:37 tonight.
Cavs 45:37 on the floor: +7
Cavs 2:23 off the floor: -12
In less than 200 seconds with LeBron off the floor, the Cavs couldn't stay within 10 of the Warriors.
I don't think LeBron handled the last minute perfectly but I really have only 1 play I had a big problem with... When LeBron settled for a fade away jumper after Kyrie's offensive rebound. Should LeBron have passed the ball to Korver? Most would say no, but Korver got an open corner 3 and led the NBA in 3pt shooting percentage... I say he needs to nail that shot. If he does, Cleveland likely wins and LeBron has a 40pt triple double game and this isn't a thread. Kyrie's individual one-on-one greatness cost him in the end.
Lot of ifs... Maybe those are excuses.
Durant's nasty though. Good for him. He was brilliant.
I just think it's funny that everyone sh***ing on LeBron when the truth is Golden State realized to clinch beating LeBron they needed to sign the second best player in the NBA... And for Durant to get a win, he needed to sign with the team that won 73 wins.
But yea, Durant is better than LeBron...
Posted this in the other thread SJung but let's be real
One thing is for sure, MJ doesn't lose that game in the same situation.
Up 2 at home with the ball under a minute left, can't be stopped going to the basket and passes it to Kyle fkin Korver. Gives up the go ahead 3 in his grill and proceeds to get the ball stripped and stolen on a potential game tying shot IIRC.
One thing is for sure, MJ doesn't lose that game in the same situation.
Up 2 at home with the ball under a minute left, can't be stopped going to the basket and passes it to Kyle fkin Korver. Gives up the go ahead 3 in his grill and proceeds to get the ball stripped and stolen on a potential game tying shot IIRC.
Kyrie was the stud of the gm for the cavs jung. Just like in gms 3,4,5 last yr kyrie carried that team. Tonight it wasn't enough. Warriors are giving lebron the first half where he is getting most his numbers. He's been very pedestrian In the second half of every game this series, when they need him the most.
And I agree w the poster above. Mj grabs that game by the throat. Bron missed about 6 layups in the second half even with the benefit of the 3-4 step no dribble rule he's allowed to play under. Those killed his team along with his giving up the ball to 3 point shooters as opposed to finishing the drives.
And I agree w the poster above. Mj grabs that game by the throat. Bron missed about 6 layups in the second half even with the benefit of the 3-4 step no dribble rule he's allowed to play under. Those killed his team along with his giving up the ball to 3 point shooters as opposed to finishing the drives.
So one thing I need to make clear... 100% MJ's execution in the final 2 minutes are superior, and probably significantly superior, to LeBron.
Honestly, I would take LeBron in the first 45 minutes over anyone in the NBA. I would take MJ and maybe a handful of guys (including Kobe and Durant) over LeBron in the final 2 minutes. Now how much you value the final 2 minutes of a NBA game over the first 46 is up to you and it's a really subjective debate. I probably value it less than the people who think that the 4th quarter is the only quarter that matters in the NBA. But again, that's up to you.
On the pass to Kyle Korver... You can disagree with it. That's fine. But if he makes it, we probably call it the right basketball play. IMO, Korver has to make that shot. Korver's in the NBA because he nails that shot. Korver got acquired by the Cavs to make that shot.
Does MJ lose a game like that? I don't know. The only equivalent I can think of is does MJ lose to the Suns in the game where John Paxson hit the go ahead 3? Almost certainly the Bulls lose that game.
Does MJ lose if Kerr misses the mid range J against the Jazz? Maybe. Game would be tied at that point and the Jazz likely have the ball on the final possession with a chance to win the game.
If you weren't going to have a negative reaction to LeBron's pass even if Korver made the shot, then it was the right basketball play and to criticize LeBron on that pass IMO isn't fair.
Again, I don't think LeBron handled the final minute well at all. But Korver needs to make that shot and Kyrie went dribble dribble dribble dribble, step-back 3 against an elite 6'7" defender in a situation he could and should have gotten a 2-for-1, but milked the clock too far.
The Cavs as a team were horrendous down the stretch. LeBron deserves some of the blame, but the entire team on the floor deserves all of it.
If you thought Kyrie was more valuable in that game to the Cavs and better than LeBron, I'm sorry you're just wrong. Kyrie had a brilliant 3rd quarter but his overall game wasn't great IMO.
The end of 1Q was an absolute dumpster fire.
LeBron played the first 10:11 of the 1st quarter, and scored 16 and the Cavs led 32-29 when he went out. Again, Cavs LED by 3.
The Cavs self destruct with Kyrie leading them and the Warriors end the quarter leading by 7. In 1:49 seconds without LeBron, the Warriors outscored the Cavs by 10.
Also, on the final possession of that 1st quarter, Steph missed a layup and the Cavs got the rebound. There was no difference between shot and game clock. You hold for the final shot in that situation always.
Kyrie sprints up court (for no reason), kicks it out to Iman Shumpert, who also dumbly shoots and misses a 3... It leads to a Warriors dunk to end the quarter. So on that final possession, if the Cavs hypothetically end the quarter with a 3, the Warriors lead after 1 is 37-35 and the Cavs are only -5 at the end of the quarter.
That was your "stud of the game."
So Kyrie has a brilliant 3Q. And it was a hugely significant quarter so taking nothing away from him...
But your "stud of the game" finished the game -9 and had a grand total of 3 assists.
Are we really going to get to a point where we're not going even call LeBron the best player on his own team when he goes:
39 pts, 11 rbs, 9 ast, +7 in 45:37?
If you want to have the debate of Durant vs LeBron, I'll have at it and respect anyone who comes to the aid of Durant.
But anyone that watched that game marginally closely saw Kyrie make some ridiculously dumb plays at the end of the 1Q and 4Q. He showed instances where he had absolutely 0 basketball IQ.
Don't get caught in Kyrie aesthetics as a player. He's eye candy, but far fewer significant substance.
So, MJ is only better than Lebron for TWO minutes per game, in the NBA Finals...?. You sir are either drinking heavily or completely clueless. Lebron will be 3-5 in NBA Finals after Friday night. MJ was/is SIX for SIX in the championship series. Lebron is on the decline, IMO. He will never become the best player of all-time. That ship will officially sail into the sunset on Friday night as well. Time to find another horse to ride. The Ohio Derby is almost over...!
I'll take LeBron because he's bigger, faster, stronger. I think he's a better rebounder. I think he's a better passer. Defensively, I think they're about equal. LeBron is more versatile defensively, but MJ was the superior on the ball defender. So with all those things, I don't think it's a stretch to say LeBron is the better basketball player apart from finishing the game and he isn't as gifted a scorer as MJ. But LeBron may end up being the NBA's all time leader in scoring and that's not even his greatest skill.
As you probably know by now, I'm not a ring counter when it comes to this argument of player's legacies and place in NBA history. MJ never lost in the finals, he lost 3 times in the first round. Do those losses just not matter because he's Michael Jordan? LeBron's never lost in the first round... Does that becomes irrelevant because he isn't Michael Jordan? This is how much I'm not a ring counter... Chris Paul is better than Kyrie and will be all time better than Kyrie even if CP3 finishes with 0 rings. If Kyrie finished with 3 rings but is the exact same PG he is now, I'll still say Jason Kidd is a better all time PG despite having only 1 ring. I'll still say CP3 is a better PG if he finished with 0 rings. Why? Because Jason Kidd and CP3 are better basketball players than Kyrie.
And of course LeBron is on the decline... LeBron's already played in more career regular season minutes than Jordan played his entire career and didn't take 2 years off like MJ.
Will LeBron become the best player of all time in most eyes? No he won't. And to a large degree I think that's fair. LeBron's epic failure against the Mavs is something that he will never escape and he shouldn't be able to escape it. And if LeBron hypothetically wins 2 more rings, then the fact that he has 5 and is 1 short of MJ due to his failure against Dallas won't sit well with everyone. And again, I completely understand that argument. MJ never failed on the biggest stage. LeBron has.
But the book on LeBron isn't done yet. And one thing with generationally great players is it's usually premature to count them out before their bodies physically break to the point where they're no longer a competitive player.
I remember a time when Kobe divorced from Shaq and was missing the playoffs or getting eliminated in the first round for a few years. There were a lot of people wondering if Kobe would ever win. Then the Lakers traded for Pau Gasol, and boom, 3 finals appearances, 2 titles followed.
Hell, I thought the Spurs were done after the Heat beat them in 2013. Nope, they weren't close to being done.
I'm not going to count out LeBron. Hell, he already did the impossible and won a title for Cleveland. If he already did that, why the hell should I count him out?
Any
Anybody that thinks Lebron and MJ are equal defensively has never watched MJ play defense and has zero credibility. You are making a ridiculous statement for the sole purpose of furthering your ridiculous point of view. MJ>LBJ all day every day. Case is frikken closed!
Anybody that thinks Lebron and MJ are equal defensively has never watched MJ play defense and has zero credibility. You are making a ridiculous statement for the sole purpose of furthering your ridiculous point of view. MJ>LBJ all day every day. Case is frikken closed!
That's an awful lot of defending you're doing or bron and I'll stick by what I said-kyrie won that series for them last year in games 3,4,5 where he was the best player on the court. Per usual bron drifted in the 2nd half last night after getting all his stats in the first half. He did in fact miss 4 or 5 gimme layups which you choose to minimize-those were huge and borderline choke artist type misses. If that was anyone else on the cavs you'd be ranting and using them as examples of "how little help" poor bron doesn't have.
I'm not gonna get into the "only times you'd take mj is in the last two minutes" and you somehow thinking he's even in the same stratosphere as mj defensively. Both those statements continue to show me you've never really seen Jordan play. You continue to minimize the fact that he's been pedestrian in the second half this whole series. im sorry-blowing layups and giving up the ball in crunch time two feet from the basket is not the mark of all time greatness. You can sit and defend the pass to Korver all you want but it wasn't the only time first of all and secondly almost everyone watching knew it was the wrong play.
I'm not gonna get into the "only times you'd take mj is in the last two minutes" and you somehow thinking he's even in the same stratosphere as mj defensively. Both those statements continue to show me you've never really seen Jordan play. You continue to minimize the fact that he's been pedestrian in the second half this whole series. im sorry-blowing layups and giving up the ball in crunch time two feet from the basket is not the mark of all time greatness. You can sit and defend the pass to Korver all you want but it wasn't the only time first of all and secondly almost everyone watching knew it was the wrong play.
Don't forget the game winning 3 in game 7. No point of arguing with him. He has a man crush, and won't stop slobbering.
I completely agree with the above quoted statements and the bolded statement is well stated. Irving is one of the most physically talented players in the league and is probably a top 5 scorer. But he has some major weaknesses. For starters, he's just not a smart basketball player. The fact that he settled for a step back 3 after pounding the ball into the floor for 12 dribbles was just bad decision making. He had gotten to the rim at will yet he settles for some hero ball shot at the end of the shot clock. He hit one big shot in last year's finals and duke fans act like he's Mr. Clutch. But I've seen him make just as many bad plays in clutch moments as good ones. It seems like he's happy to "get his" and he just doesn't play smart, winning basketball. And I think that, above everything else, is due to his playing 8 games in college and only being in a college program one year. Imagine how much better of a player he'd be if he had stayed 2-3 years at duke. Plus, he'd be a far better defender had he stayed in college longer. He's a bad defender. Not mediocre, but very poor. He gives up as many points as he scores.
Well count me as one that believes the only meaningful quarter of an NBA game is the 4th and yes, to me, the last 2 minutes are when the real play occurs. NBA players generally go through the motions up until that point.
In regards to your comment about Mike being better in the last 2 minutes, that's a forgone conclusion. There's never been a better closer. Ever. The problem with LeBron is that he doesn't have a signature move. Mike could go into the post and hit the turnaround fadeaway and was money. LeBron doesn't have that. His best scoring move is to have a full head of steam going to the basket. You can't always do that in the last 2 minutes and without it, LeBron then has to decide if he's going to shoot a jumper or pass to a guy that's a better jump shooter. As you see, he often elects for the latter rather than the former.
Lastly, I also don't agree that LeBron is an equal defender to Mike. Jordan took over games defensively at times. I've not seen LeBron do that. But then again, defense is played completely different these days.
Swap out Jordan with Lebron on those Bulls teams, and the Bulls maybe win 2 titles, not 6.
That's fine... I'll disagree, but if that's what you think it's very clear why MJ is very much ahead of LeBron to you.
I've seen LeBron wreck games with his defense. 2011 ECF the NBA MVP was Derrick Rose and at that point of his career, D-Rose was unstoppable. In the ECF, the Heat put LeBron on Rose and Rose shot 6.3% when defended by Rose, including shooting 1/15 against LeBron in games 4 and 5. LeBron won that series because he shut down peak D-Rose. He was the best rim protector against the Spurs in 2013 and ended up being switched on Tim Duncan and the Spurs big guys and handled it flawlessly.
And the numbers back up that LeBron was the elite perimeter defender in the NBA. He probably isn't right now.. Specifically in these finals, it has more to do with how great Durant is offensively... But during LeBron's physical prime in Miami, LeBron was allowing 0.84 pts per possession (top 5 in the NBA) and in isolation situations he held his opponent to 37.6% shooting.
Again, I think MJ was the better one-on-one defender. He was a better lock down defender... But LeBron can defend every center in today's league and could defend many centers in MJ's time. LeBron's defensive versatility far exceeds anyone's maybe in the history of the NBA. And that matters. It matters much more in today's NBA than when MJ played, but it matters nevertheless.
KD joined a team that already had 3 all stars...and one of those all stars took over the 1st quarter last allowing KD to chill....I am not knocking KD but the reality of it is where was this KD last year when the Warriors handed it to them? Put Bron on the Warriors team and this convo would probably be about him! These guys changing teams and looking to hook up with other all stars in order to win a ring.....MJ had none of that BS...he made the players around him better and made Pip an all star....to even begin to compare MJ and these guys is a ludicrous arguement!!
I disagree (of course I would)... For the record, LeBron is playing for a coach that sat the best 3 point shooter in the NBA when the Cavs were down 3 late and subbed in Tristian Thompson. These are the bone-headed coaches LeBron's been playing for in all but 4 years in his career.
If you said LeBron would win a couple less, I don't think I would blink an eye. I would just disagree... But I disagree firmly that LeBron is 33% the player MJ is in terms of RINGZ culture.
The other thing no one is bringing up here (and no one will)...
What was Durant doing the first 2:30 of the 4th quarter? RESTING!
You know what happened to the Cavs when LeBron got his 2:37 of rest for the game??? THE CAVS WENT -12!!!
LeBron is playing on a team where he literally can't rest without his team just sh***ing all over the place. Durant is on a team where he can get 7:05 of rest including 2:30 to start what some consider "the only important quarter in the NBA."
So, just to clarify, LeBron makes a pass to a shooter who misses and it's good pass/decision LeBron - Kyrie makes a pass to a shooter who misses and it's stupid decision Kyrie. Do you miss the clear bias there?
I am not surprised that you would not want to count rings in your already out of mind logic. That seems to solidly be because Lebron can not finish with enough rings to further enchant your POV. Look, you seem to be somewhat intelligent at times. However, your love for all things bron-bron is a bit clueless, in the final analysis. Give it a break. Well, just give it a rest. No, instead please give it a free ride to Akron. Your king, will always have at least one ring there, even if it is from the bottom of an empty beer mug. He can also find a used crown there as well, I feel certain. Used Crown Vic's are still all the rage. The bottom of your glass is empty. So is Lebrons ring chest for yet another blown year. How many more will it now take? The arguing is officially almost over for good. The next time that Lebron loses your powerless thinking will go out with the Cleveland sunset. Can't imagine anything more beautiful right this second. I have but one Final question?Where will he run to next?
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Lol now he's been playing for terrible coaches. Terrible players, terrible coaches. It's a wonder any of these guys ever made it to the best basketball league in the world.
These are the coaches that LeBron hand picks, because they'll run what LeBron wants them to run. Any coach that wants to actually draw up his own plays gets the ax from LBJ.
You're comparing Korver and Shumpert as shooters? Ironic GIF you just posted then.So, just to clarify, LeBron makes a pass to a shooter who misses and it's good pass/decision LeBron - Kyrie makes a pass to a shooter who misses and it's stupid decision Kyrie. Do you miss the clear bias there?
And yea, Jason Kidd was better at basketball than Kyrie. I don't think that's really a controversial opinion. Is it?
Yea. Hand picked Spoelstra over Pat Riley. He hand picked Mike Brown? Wtf? I guess you can say he handpicked Lue even though no one has come to the defense of David Blatt.
You just called Durant the best player in the game... If LeBron's a quitter for going back to Cleveland.... What does that make Durant?
Lol Why do so many people hate LeBron? I enjoy watching the man play. Dude is a once-in-a-generation talent and I consider myself lucky as hell to watch him. Enough with the Jordan comparisons. Why do so many people do that anyway? I got to watch Jordan throughout my childhood, and now I get to watch LeBron throughout some of my adulthood. That's pretty badass as far as I'm concerned. To hell with comparing them.
Durant averaged almost 31 points, on 55% shooting in his first finals against the Heat.
He is the 3rd player in NBA history to have scored at least 25 pts in 8 straight finals games
He has outs scored LeBron the 4th quarter 31-11
He is 13 for 21 for 31 pts when LeBron is guarding him
I've see a couple posts questioning the greatness of Durant, and its laughable.
He is the 3rd player in NBA history to have scored at least 25 pts in 8 straight finals games
He has outs scored LeBron the 4th quarter 31-11
He is 13 for 21 for 31 pts when LeBron is guarding him
I've see a couple posts questioning the greatness of Durant, and its laughable.
By "sitting the best 3 pt shooter in the NBA", are you REALLY referring to Kyle Korver. Whoa that is hilarious!
You can't have it both ways....if you go by 3 pt%, actually Pau Gasol is the top 3 point shooter in the league. Granted PG took fewer than KK, but enough to be a relevant sample.
3 pointers made..... KK is 4th best guy who saw the court JUST LAST NIGHT! Steph has double (!!!) the 3s this year that KK has (324 vs. 162 in regular season)....Klay has 268.... Kyre has 177... regular season totals. So don't second guess in hindsight the decisions of Bron's hand selected coach....KK is a complimentary role player, way behind KI in terms of late game options....
plus - as you tell us ad nauseum during the Heels seasons.... it doesn't matter how many threes you make or you 3P%, what matters is how many you TAKE. I think that is misguided logic, but hey its yours not mine.
FYI - in terms of 3pters made, "the best 3 pt shooter in the league" checks in at #22. Not #2.... #22.
bron stats
3: 32 and 11...couldnt find assist
4: 25 13 9
5: 41 16 7
6: 41 8 11
7: 27 11 11
and kyrie won the series?
