KD: Kold Steel
- Thread starter ChapelHeeled
- Start date
I want to try to simplify this. LeBron is the better athlete. Jordan is the better basketball player! I don't think there is a debate on either. LeBron's athleticism makes him appear to be a much better basketball player than he really is. I do think Durant is better than LeBron also, but LeBron is the best NBA "athlete" of all time.
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Please , this payroll bit is getting old. We all know TT is not worth the money that severely pushes this teams payroll in the red. No offense to u, but dang, everyone that routes against James uses this argument.
Kyrie brilliant tonight. Great on both ends. Absolutely shut down Steph on the defensive end. I thought it was his first true great floor game of the series.
I've never seen this before though. The Cavs simply melt with LeBron off the floor. LeBron was plus freaking 32 tonight in 40:46. The Cavs were -11 in the 4:14 of meaningful basketball which he was off the floor (eliminating garbage time).
I don't even know how to explain it.
Kyrie dropping 40 but being a +7 in a 21 point win is an odd stat too.
Go to the 4th quarter... Cavs lead by 19 (115-96) to start the quarter.... Ty Lue sat LeBron to start the 4th quarter... This follows in the next 65 seconds:
Kyrie missed tough layup
Golden State 3
Kyrie missed step back jumper
Golden State 3
Bang. Warriors within 13 (115-102 Cavs) with 10:55 left. LeBron comes in, Cavs go 9-1 run... To a big degree I think Kyrie forces things when LeBron's off the floor. He plays more relaxed when LeBron is on the floor.
I know no one will really come to LeBron support tonight because Kyrie dropped a big round number and he deserves a ton of praise... But LeBron better not leave the kitchen with all these kids around. When LeBron goes to the bathroom, the kids burn down the kitchen.
I've never seen this before though. The Cavs simply melt with LeBron off the floor. LeBron was plus freaking 32 tonight in 40:46. The Cavs were -11 in the 4:14 of meaningful basketball which he was off the floor (eliminating garbage time).
I don't even know how to explain it.
Kyrie dropping 40 but being a +7 in a 21 point win is an odd stat too.
Go to the 4th quarter... Cavs lead by 19 (115-96) to start the quarter.... Ty Lue sat LeBron to start the 4th quarter... This follows in the next 65 seconds:
Kyrie missed tough layup
Golden State 3
Kyrie missed step back jumper
Golden State 3
Bang. Warriors within 13 (115-102 Cavs) with 10:55 left. LeBron comes in, Cavs go 9-1 run... To a big degree I think Kyrie forces things when LeBron's off the floor. He plays more relaxed when LeBron is on the floor.
I know no one will really come to LeBron support tonight because Kyrie dropped a big round number and he deserves a ton of praise... But LeBron better not leave the kitchen with all these kids around. When LeBron goes to the bathroom, the kids burn down the kitchen.
Key words in your post "Kyrie forces", There is something i used to shout at the tv the last few seasons while watching OKC, KEEP SHOOTING RUSS! Kyrie has me doing the same thing. Forces way to many with James off the court. But lol, just when I shout, he drains a 28 footer and regains mo i a tuff game. I hear you brother. James will never get credit on this board. His stats are so much more than points.
Come on Heeelz I know I'm riding ya hard bt what gives? Labron, you believe he is the antichrist or something?
Idk who Labron is, but I don't believe In an antichrist. I just found jungs last paragraph to be nausea inducing.
But u do know who I am talking about. Fact. And btw your response explains a whole lot. Hands washed...
Lol wtf are you talking about? Are you referring to the fact I don't believe in an antichrist? Does that get your panties in a bunch?
I guess I'm sorry.
And that post you responded to were just facts. Aside from the first paragraph which was my opinion that Kyrie was great on both ends.
Everything else is just pretty objective evidence of LeBron's value.
I had no issue w your post til the last paragraph, which I found obnoxious. Acting as if lebronda is a superhuman and the rest of the team are just scrubs. I'm not sure why you and others need to downplay the cavs after every game. They put up fricken 86 points in a half tonight. His teammates can't be as bad as you and others pretend
LeBron's teammates typically play really well at home with LeBron on the floor. Do you think it's any coincidence that the Cavs scored 49 points in the 1st quarter with LeBron playing all 12 minutes???
In the 2nd quarter, the Cavs outscored the Warriors 37-35. LeBron was +7 in the 2nd quarter in 8:39 played... Meaning the Cavs went -5 in the 3:21 he was off the floor in the 2nd quarter.
So in the 1st half, here's the breakdown.
Cavs lead 86-68
LeBron in 20:39 was +23
The Cavs in the 3:21 he was off the floor was -5
So it's empirical and analytical evidence that the Cavs basically only played well with LeBron on the floor.
This is obviously a ridiculous analogy, but if you extrapolated the -5 in 3:21 in the first half over the entire 24 minute 1st half, the Cavs are -36... -72 over 48 minutes.
The difference between LeBron's teammates being good basketball players and not good basketball players is LeBron being on the floor vs LeBron being off the floor.
We LeBron appreciators are an endangered species on this board... All the anti-LeBron folks will be ready to pile on after the Warriors win game 5... But oh well.
??????
Why are people so blind? THEY PAID HIM. If he isnt good, DONT PAY HIM. Is this concept so hard? Your boy toy pushed for him to GET PAID.
And you will keep writing novels about his supporting the cast, the one LeBron has a huge say in. Never seen a superstar with so many excuses you LeBroners give. It's pathetic.
Easy trigger. My boy toy? sk I do agree that they paid him but the fact is he is not worth it. Just because someone gets it does not mean they deserve it. For one, I never believed that he would be worth that kinda money. For two, I also believe none of them are worth that kinda money. Yes they paid him but that does not mean he makes them that much better.
You do realize the player in this series that had the most say of his supporting cast was Kevin Durant because most recently chose to join a made team right? Durant was the final piece... Durant did nothing wrong, but it's a lot easier to not play GM if you don't need to.
LeBron has had a say in Cleveland's roster no question, but when LeBron returned to Cleveland... This "made team" consisted of Dion Waiters and Shawn Marion in their top 8. I would be criticizing LeBron quite a bit if he were ok with that roster and just played with it.
Also, won't matter in the history of basketball since Golden State will win the title on Monday...
But if LeBron shot 40.1% like Durant did, adding only 4 rebounds and 4 assists while going -22, none of you would just ignore it like you're doing with Kevin Durant. Even if LeBron dropped 35, if he were that insignificant rebounding/playmaking/inefficient, he would never live it down. LeBron had a really bad half against Boston and the basketball world nearly ended.
Also, if LeBron was an absolute no show like Steph in an elimination game (14 pts on 30.8% shooting, -25), forget it. Many would probably say LeBron isn't even an all time top 10 player.
This guy just almost casually set the all time record for NBA finals triple doubles... He's averaging a triple double for the series... And the Cavs have completely imploded without him on the floor... Yet SEE!!! SEE!!! KYRIE IS GOOD!!!! Is all you get.
But if LeBron shot 40.1% like Durant did, adding only 4 rebounds and 4 assists while going -22, none of you would just ignore it like you're doing with Kevin Durant. Even if LeBron dropped 35, if he were that insignificant rebounding/playmaking/inefficient, he would never live it down. LeBron had a really bad half against Boston and the basketball world nearly ended.
Also, if LeBron was an absolute no show like Steph in an elimination game (14 pts on 30.8% shooting, -25), forget it. Many would probably say LeBron isn't even an all time top 10 player.
This guy just almost casually set the all time record for NBA finals triple doubles... He's averaging a triple double for the series... And the Cavs have completely imploded without him on the floor... Yet SEE!!! SEE!!! KYRIE IS GOOD!!!! Is all you get.
So your ok with Jr Smith, Tristan Thompson and Shumperts contracts? You know why GS was able to get Durant? Because smart management, and no pressure from star players. LeBron would have went to management and said hey, you need to pay Harrison Barnes. Keep complaining about that supporting cast though.
Like I said, that "terrible" supporting cast managed to put up a record 86 points in a half last night so...
its either
A) the warriors defense is god awful
B)Brons teammates arent as horrible as some keep pretending or
C)the Bron lovers are so insecure they will go to any lengths-even trashing his teammates- if it means preserving their image of him as basically the only player on the court who knows what a basketball is.
Cant have it both ways.
its either
A) the warriors defense is god awful
B)Brons teammates arent as horrible as some keep pretending or
C)the Bron lovers are so insecure they will go to any lengths-even trashing his teammates- if it means preserving their image of him as basically the only player on the court who knows what a basketball is.
Cant have it both ways.
I took it to mean GS makes them look like scrubs with LBJ is not on the floor not that they are in general.
CC
A (at least last night) and B (not as good as MJ's help doesn't mean horrible BTW).
And C - LBJ haters generally go to any lengths to over-hype his teammates.
CC
Bullshit. Youve all created a double standard where theres pretty much no way Lebron could ever look like anything other than the best of all time through your screwy reasoning. I mean, he played with dwayne wade, chris bosh, ray allen, etc and somehow people have turned those guys into just above average basketball players who simply failed his highness when the chips were down.
Based on this type of nonsense the guy cant possibly look bad, no matter what. Its absurd.
I don't think the Tristian contract is awful. He's just had a bad series. A player like him has big value in today's NBA. Elite offensive rebounder and a very versatile defensive center. Probably overpaid but so will any big man in his prime years in today's NBA. Timofey Mozgov got 4/64.
Didn't love Shumpert and JR's deals but I understood it. The Cavs won the title last year and have made 2 straight. Makes sense to keep the roster in tact. But do I love it? No.
GSW management is smart (to a degree). This is an organization that was going to trade Klay for Kevin Love before Jerry West intervened. And also, they were able to sign durant for one reason. Curry got hurt early in his career and they were able to sign him cheap because there were longterm questions about his career. Golden State got the MVP years from Curry on a non rookie contract at 11 million per year.
So yes, Warriors were smart to lock in Klay and Dray before the cap exploded. But the Curry stuff was a lot of good fortune. If he were healthy, he would've gotten the max at 28 mil/year and they already have Klay and Dray to virtual max. They wouldn't have been able to get Durant.
So good management plus luck equals one of the best teams in NBA history.
And I highly doubt LeBron would have said "you need to pay Harrison Barnes" when they could go after Durant. The Cavs simple couldnt since they had 3 max players already. Remember, LeBron took a big pay cut and wasn't the highest paid player on the Hear when he went there. But lets just forget about that.
No ones turning Wade into an average player. But by the 3rd and especially 4th year, Wade's body was breaking down and in that 4th postseason, Wade had absolutely nothing left.
Ray Allen was like 40 years old too. To make him out to be anything more than a 3pt specialist at that point is probably wrong.
The difference between MJ and LeBron when it came to supporting casts was MJ had Pippen and Kukoc for the entirety of their primes. LeBron had 2-3 years of Wade and Bosh's prime and he won 2 rings. LeBron won't get all of Kyrie and Love's primes because LeBron's too old (which I'm sure is 100% LeBron's fault too. Damn time!)
My argument with supporting cast is if you gave LeBron a top 10 player for his entire career. The best coach for his entire career. He would probably have more rings right now and that's what MJ had.
If LeBron had the most dominant big man in NBA history for half his career like Kobe had. Then got maybe the most skilled big guy in the NBA for the back half like Kobe had. And the best coach in the NBA like Kobe had... LeBron probably has more rings right now than Kobe had.
I guess the debate of who had the better supporting cast is up for debate. One thing that isn't is MJ and Kobe had easier situations on their original teams. LeBron's first 7 years of his career were wasted by the Cavs. And unless some people here are going to argue with me that Larry Hughes and Big Z are the same as Pippen and Shaq, that's just the truth.
Actually, supporting cast probably isn't up for debate considering who LeBron played with during his first 7 years compared to MJ, Magic, Bird and Kobe. LeBron definitely did more with less than any of those all time greats.
Dude,
There is nothing that proves your theories. I have proof that LeBron intervenes with management, because he is out spoken to the media.
They should go ahead and just give the cavs the trophy, the G.O.A.T managed to win a game! That deserves it.
Ray Allen hit the shot to win that series. without him bron loses that series, so theres that. And I could easily argue that hes had just as much talent around him as some of the ones youre mentioning. People have revisionist history, but when he went to miami it was considered to be a super team and people(including him) were all ranting and raving about him winning ten championships there. Of course that didnt happen and most began to backtrack and pretend that his supporting cast wasnt that good. and so it continues.
What proof for the Warriors signing Durant? The salary cap? If you need an article as proof that Curry's injury was the main reason.
https://amp.businessinsider.com/stephen-curry-contract-helped-warriors-sign-kevin-durant-2016-7
And the written proof that the Warriors were going to trade Klay for Love before Jerry West intervened.
http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/...klay-thompson-lebron-james-steph-curry-060816
Aren't you ignoring the first 7 years of LeBron when he was playing with a D League roster while winning 60+ games and making it to the NBA finals? Do those years just not count in LeBron's career without a supporting cast?
You know at what age Kobe had Shaq? His rookie year at 18.
When did MJ get Pippen? In his third year. You think it's just coincidence the Bulls beat the Pistons when Pippen entered his prime? MJ was clearly the guy but they sure as hell needed Pippen to be big. Pippen averaged 23/8/5/3/2 in 1991 against Detroit. Sweep. Pippen averaged 16/6/4/2/1 when they lost in 7 the year before.
LeBron never had anyone that can go 23/8/5 like Pippen in Cleveland. And he sure as hell didn't have anyone that can be 30/13 like Shaq.
If LeBron had that kind of superstar with him in Cleveland, he probably never leaves. I think they win a ring in his first 7 years and he might be in counting mode with the same organization. Instead he had Larry Hughes.
I'm not ignoring anything lol. Those were really the years bron didn't have much around him and as you say he didn't win anything, so thanks for proving my point.
Bama, the argument that Cleveland can't continue to play the poor me card when they lose given that they have the highest payroll in the league is definitely valid. It's not everybody else's fault that they overpaid for a few guys that Bron helped court......
