KD: Kold Steel
- Thread starter ChapelHeeled
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I don't think anyone is questioning Durant's greatness.
Conquering LeBron was important for Durant. He was like 5-19 in head-to-head matchups against LeBron coming into this series. Really important step for Durant to beat LeBron... But the fact is it took Durant to team up with a 73 win team to get past LeBron. That isn't questioning.
In fairness to everyone else on this board... I think I'm alone on the island on saying I think Lebron is the better player. So I'll take almost all the blame for starting this never ending debate on this board.
I basically agree with you though. I'm extremely grateful I'm getting the opportunity to watch LeBron after watching MJ when I was a kid. I refuse to take LeBron for granted because I probably took Kobe for granted after MJ. I was a huge Bulls fan and almost grudgingly watched the NBA after 1998 and it was my loss.
On the other thread. I did say my top basketball players of all time were:
1. MJ
2. Magic/LeBron
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
(IIRC)...
That's mainly due to the rings. I think greatest player of all time vs who's the better basketball player has become a different debate.
I can argue Hakeem was a better player than Tim Duncan, but in the history of basketball, Duncan's rings places him higher than Hakeem.
Your boy toy started the "super team" concept
Durant had to go against LeBron and his "super teams"
Mostly because Lebron was/is in the middle of a Championship opportunity right now. For him to already have his next exit strategy planned is an unthinkable notion to his current team, at this time. For you to even have to ask why speaks toward plural ignorance of massive proportion...
Props for being stand-up about it.
To me (as many have said more eloquently - I believe what MJ had, that LBJ just doesn't, is that killer / closer / finisher instinct.
MJ's leadership style (which would be frowned upon in most environments) was to literally fight or beat his teammates, if they gave less than 100% when the titles were on the line. True killer instinct, and he forced others on his team to have it as well. Also, he NEVER shied away from taking the last shot(s) or locking down the best scorer on the opposing team. Put the pressure on him - he's fine with it
LBJ - AT TIMES - when it comes to crunch time, he is seen complaining about what call he didn't get.... or giving up on defensive efforts.... or passing off to somebody else. You can say that is unselfish, but its also not being "The Man" / "The GOAT" when it matters most. And to his teammates, when they see him constantly complaining or giving up on defense, or not hitting the boards, they have this look like: "oh OK so THIS is how WE ALL should roll now?!" Wrong/poor "leadership by example".
I don't disagree that MJ is the better closer. You can go back on everything I've posted and you'll never find me saying that LeBron is better late game than MJ.
I will say this though. We don't like LeBron as much as MJ. Maybe it's because MJ never failed in the finals... Maybe it's because MJ's worst moment wasn't a TV show declaring he would leave his hometown team... Maybe Nike had a great sneaker campaign that made MJ seem more likable.
But lets say LeBron punched JR Smith during a practice because he didn't like the way JR was playing/practicing/competing or whatever. We would not be calling LeBron "a ridiculous competitor" for doing that. We would call him a baby, we would call him a bad teammate. There would be 0 spinning that. No one would be on LeBron's side (except me). No euphemisms, no nothing.
Look, MJ ran out more or as many coaches as people think LeBron has. No one cares. Why? Because MJ was right. He was right that those bums that coached him the first few years of his career weren't getting the most out of him or the team.
What I wish is the off court stuff we give MJ the benefit of the doubt for... I wish we would give LeBron that. If you want to argue one is better on the floor than the other, that's great... That's what makes this debate fascinating right? But if we would be calling LeBron an a-hole, team destroyer, bad teammate if he punched a teammate in the face... Can't we say MJ was an a-hole, bad teammate instead of "intensely competitive?"
Ok, I guess we'll ignore the following:
Moses Malone signing with the 76ers in the early 80's to form a super team with Julius Erving.
Charles Barkley being acquired by the Rockets in 96(?) to join Hakeem and Drexler. Barkley in ring chase mode too.
Karl Malone and Gary Payton signing with the Lakers... Granted they were past their primes but they were still 20 PPG scorers that teamed up trying to create a super team.
Then the Celtics acquiring Garnett and Allen. And before people say Garnett was traded to Boston... He was.... He also signed a 3 year/60 million dollar deal the day the trade got completed... So yea, he was going there to get paid too.
So sorry, super teams aren't new. What about Rodman joining the Bulls?
What's different here is Durant joining the team that Durant and the Thunder CHOKED against in the playoffs. Remember when they were up 3-1 and blew it? What if LeBron did that? Different topic. LeBron joined a super team to beat the super team Celtics. LeBron didn't join the Celtics. Durant did the "if you can't beat them, join them"
I have no problems with what Durant did either. His right as a free agent. But if you're going to blame LeBron for this, that's just wrong. If you think LeBron took a short cut to rings, what the hell did Durant do? The NBA has been a league of super teams forever.
Durant was in the middle of a championship opportunity when he left for Golden State too. And whose to say Durant didn't have his exit strategy planned either? The Warriors sure as hell were planning on it. That's why they made sure they had roster flexibility going into last year.
I know everyone likes Durant and he's sort of the anti LeBron... But those 2 guys have had almost mirroring careers.
Both entered the NBA as can't miss prospects.
Both didn't make the playoffs for a couple years.
Both made the NBA finals well ahead of schedule and both lost convincingly in their first appearance.
Both left as unrestricted free agents.
LeBron won his first ring at 27. Durant will at 28.
Both will be regulars in the NBA finals late 20's into early to mid 30's
Both will have won multiple championships before all said and done.
Both will likely be multiple MVP award winners.
The two of them are pretty much mirroring each other's career.
Everything is not created equal. If LeBron comes along first and does exactly what Jordan did and Jordan came along next and did exactly what LeBron has done, then the same comments would be made about Michael. Being the greatest, most revered, etc has everything in the world to do with circumstance. Michael's circumstance (the team he played for, the years he played, the teammates he had, the style the league was playing then, his rivals, growth of the NBA in that era, growth of marketing athletes in that era, etc) make it so his legacy is beyond reproach. LeBron won't get the same treatment. That's just how things go.
Let's not pretend bron doesn't bring some of it on himself. Jordan never pretended to be anything other than what he was. Bron wore number 23, bron wants the spotlight, he chooses to make almost everything he does (and the media is a part of this too) a huge drama and a circus. He repeatedly argues almost every call against him, flops and flails on the court, and makes sure he's the center of attention. I'm aware he does some great things off the court as well, I'm strictly speaking in basketball terms here.
1) If LeBron pummeled JR Smith, LeBron's image would go up, in my eyes. (kidding)
2) that's why I mentioned that MJs leadership is frowned on in most "work environments". Hard to deny that MJ was over-the-top, too obsessed, too competitive, even petty up to his HOF speech.
And I'll just go out on a limb and acknowledge (speculate?) that LeBron does (or should?) compare favorably to MJ in terms of charity work, lack marital / sexual indiscretions, lack of gambling troubles and related underworld, etc....
I don't know all the details by any stretch but I highly doubt the murder of MJs father was a random act, or that he left basketball for a time just because he was tired of it.
But my comments are related to what the guys did on the basketball arena - practice and games - and the corresponding results.
How much of it is the fault that LeBron was a household name by the time he was a sophomore in high school. He may choose to make himself the center of a huge drama because that's how he was treated by the time he was 16 years old. In reality, I'm stunned that LeBron has handled himself as well as he has. Child stars and child sports prodigies typically don't handle themselves as relatively well as LeBron has.
And of course we're speaking strictly basketball. If we debated legacies off the basketball court, I can argue that MJ's off the court legacy has been a complete bust relative to his potential.
I think Kyrie is a big time talent. Butttt answer this question when you debate Bron or Kyrie? Would Bron still be where he's at and produce the same numbers without Kyrie? I say hell yes. Would Kyrie be able to produce the same numbers without Lebron? I say hell no. Kyrie is very good, don't get me wrong so it's splitting hairs to a certain degree but he benefits greatly from open space created by Lebron.
I agree mostly. But kyrie does create most of his own shots. Basketball is still a team game lol. It appears some in this thread who are huge lebron fans like to act as if it's him by himself vs the other team. It's beyond ad absurdium at this point. Every time the guy loses the same exact things are said-and excuses are made-even when excuses aren't needed.
The overdefensiveness of this guy says quite a bit.
Looking at his averages since he's been in the league, I would say that is debatable.
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/6442/kyrie-irving
That's 2 players
Barkley dropped off after his first year in Houston.
They were old as hell, come on, man.
Those were trades, different from a free agent
Comparing Rodman to LBJ and Durant? Ok then
Free agent super teams is new, sorry. At least GS drafted 3 of their all stars
I guess losing 4 times in the finals isn't choking? Ok
Make no mistake. This Cavs team is LeBron dependent. Bar none. Some people's flavor of the month might be Kyrie, some people might like Love, and many people dislike LeBron enough where they diminish his own individual value.
This is the truth though...
During the playoffs:
When LeBron is on the court, the Cavs are +14.3 net rating
When LeBron is off the court, the Cavs are -13.2 net rating
This is a one man show with role players.
good stats Jung. It's definitely a team game and all the parts must be productive to win at that level, but for some of these folks acting like Kyrie is the second coming is laughable. Dude is a very talented guard, but not even close to the level of a KD, Lebron, Leonard, etc.
Well.. he has scored over 30 and plus 40 pts multiple times in finals games. That alone makes the meme of "bron has no help" ridiculous on its face. No ones saying he's a top 3-4 player in the league but he's an all star and as I said carried that cavs team last year in times they really needed him.(something some of you seem to abhor even acknowledging)
Kyrie's a brilliant offensive talent but the fact that Kyrie can go for 38 pts last night and everyone says he was great right? He was -9.
Kyrie needs to improve his overall game.
LeBron's help in Cleveland aint close to KD's help in Golden State.
I don't think anyone here has said that kd cast isn't better lol. But I think where some of us continue to take issue is that almost everytime lebron loses it's because he has no one around him. But.. he does. Hand picked players by him, leagues highest payrolls, and two all stars. It's a false narrative that has really run its course.
This is the end of 1Q sequence that I keep bringing back on Kyrie... Literally the worst bit of PG play I recall in a finals game.
You have the last shot.... You pass to Shumpert... Shumpert misses... Kyrie misses help on Draymond.
He has a lot of growing to do to become a complete basketball player.
You have the last shot.... You pass to Shumpert... Shumpert misses... Kyrie misses help on Draymond.
He has a lot of growing to do to become a complete basketball player.
Well, they have the highest payroll in the NBA in large part because Steph got hurt early in his career and the Warriors were able to sign him to a bargain because there were legitimate concerns about his longevity. He signed like a 4 year/45 million dollar deal because of that... Pretty uncommon for a 23-24 year old to sign that deal despite the team owning his bird rights.
If that doesn't happen, Curry would have likely signed a max deal last year because he wouldn't have a 4 year team friendly deal. And the new salary cap (if I have this right) means he would have been eligible for the max contract at 30% of the salary cap at $28.2 million this year. That puts their salary number just 10 million lower than the Cavs. So the difference in money between the Cavs and Warriors roster is mainly due to Curry's early career injuries.
But the Warriors were clearly smarter with their money. They locked up Klay and Draymond before the cap exploded, the Cavs locked up JR Smith and Tristian after... Translation, Tristian is making the same amount as Klay and JR is making a few mil less than both. And JR Smith and Tristian obviously aren't in the same planet as Klay and Draymond as players.
I'd love a video of all the layups bron missed in that second half. Those hurt much worse than whatever you're pretending kyrie did so horribly in the first half.
Side note-the title of this thread belongs on xtube.
Side note-the title of this thread belongs on xtube.
I guess my point is that even with Curry's pending max deal at season's end, Cavs still have highest payroll which presents the question that I've asked many of my buddies who follow the Lebron bandwagon back to Cleveland. Where are the Cavs not getting their return on investment? I think you illustrated that nicely specific to JR Smith and Tristan Thompson, especially Tristan. He hasn't done sh*t....
Something to think about, without LeBron's clamoring for Kevin Love, and paying Tristan Thompson, the Cavs could still have Andrew Wiggins and been able to afford another super star. LeBron brought their salary demise the first time around, and is doing it again to the Cavs. He will bolt for another team again after next year. Cleveland unfortunately doesn't have a Pat Riley to run the show.
Sk, you are helping make my point. That was going to be my next question to the Lebron lovers. Who does Lebron have to blame specific to the lack of production from the free agents he hand picked himself? And why do these other high end free agents have "run ins" with Lebron and then he dumps them. Outside of Steven A Smith calling Lebron out this week, the blame seems to always fall on the "other guys" not doing enough or the other team just being stacked.
In my opinion, talent vs talent, Lebron is in the discussion with MJ, but when you look at leadership and just being the guy, Lebron can't hold a candle to MJ. He does make excuses and play the victim when convenient.
In my opinion, talent vs talent, Lebron is in the discussion with MJ, but when you look at leadership and just being the guy, Lebron can't hold a candle to MJ. He does make excuses and play the victim when convenient.
Can I ask who were they going to sign? Apart from LeBron/Bosh and then Durant, guys usually stay with their drafted team. They make more money staying because of bird rights. And as much as people would like guys to sacrifice money for winning, do you blame guys for taking 20 mil more for staying?
If they don't trade Wiggins, who knows if they get another superstar. You notice that everyone the Cavs have on their roster was either drafted by the Cavs or traded for? Maybe that's a sign that superstars traditionally don't take advantage of their free agency to sign with Cleveland. That's kind of why LeBron left in the first place.
