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KD: Kold Steel

If you read my posts I'm no Bron hater. I think ability wise he's in the conversation with MJ who is the goat. Leadership wise, Bron just isn't my guy. I don't think there's any debate here that Bron pulls the strings in Cleveland. So who's to blame when free agents don't work out? Many of these guys Bron helped court yet there always seems to be a team dynamic issue with lebrons teams. He didn't get along great with Love at first. Him and Kyrie struggled early on sharing the ball handling duties. These things seem to have passed with success however every time they lose, it's always those other guys. I hate that and it's not just Lebron.
 
What proof for the Warriors signing Durant? The salary cap? If you need an article as proof that Curry's injury was the main reason.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/stephen-curry-contract-helped-warriors-sign-kevin-durant-2016-7

And the written proof that the Warriors were going to trade Klay for Love before Jerry West intervened.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/...klay-thompson-lebron-james-steph-curry-060816

business as the source, hahahaha. Curry has 1 season in his career where he missed more than a handful of games. Keep believing whatever makes you feel better.
 
Bama, the argument that Cleveland can't continue to play the poor me card when they lose given that they have the highest payroll in the league is definitely valid. It's not everybody else's fault that they overpaid for a few guys that Bron helped court......
I can somewhat see that but can some at least see the other side of the card in GS hitting the lottery with a few or their players. I guess my argument is the tired tired complaining on a LJ who continues to smash records, but can't ever get credit for any of it for the hate. Some peeps are jealous, I get that but its just old. I'm a MJ fan but I can also recognize greatness in others. Not saying u can't btw
 
If you read my posts I'm no Bron hater. I think ability wise he's in the conversation with MJ who is the goat. Leadership wise, Bron just isn't my guy. I don't think there's any debate here that Bron pulls the strings in Cleveland. So who's to blame when free agents don't work out? Many of these guys Bron helped court yet there always seems to be a team dynamic issue with lebrons teams. He didn't get along great with Love at first. Him and Kyrie struggled early on sharing the ball handling duties. These things seem to have passed with success however every time they lose, it's always those other guys. I hate that and it's not just Lebron.
Honest question Gntd, do you think MJ had and used his sway when he played?
 
I can somewhat see that but can some at least see the other side of the card in GS hitting the lottery with a few or their players. I guess my argument is the tired tired complaining on a LJ who continues to smash records, but can't ever get credit for any of it for the hate. Some peeps are jealous, I get that but its just old. I'm a MJ fan but I can also recognize greatness in others. Not saying u can't btw

He doesn't get credit? Lol. Oh LeBroners.
 
He doesn't get credit? Lol. Oh LeBroners.
Oh he does, but not from haters. Please read my post. IDK what a Lebroner is, but I do know what hate is. Not really sure why so much goofiness when LJ is even mentioned. SK I will admit there are a lot of people that do lick his lollipop on the media side.
 
Bullshit. Youve all created a double standard where theres pretty much no way Lebron could ever look like anything other than the best of all time through your screwy reasoning. I mean, he played with dwayne wade, chris bosh, ray allen, etc and somehow people have turned those guys into just above average basketball players who simply failed his highness when the chips were down.

Based on this type of nonsense the guy cant possibly look bad, no matter what. Its absurd.

BS right back. Don't act like playing with Wade or Allen at the end of their careers is the same as playing with them in their primes. MJ with the wiz was a pretty good player but don't even tell me he was as good as prime time MJ.

CC
 
BS right back. Don't act like playing with Wade or Allen at the end of their careers is the same as playing with them in their primes. MJ with the wiz was a pretty good player but don't even tell me he was as good as prime time MJ.

CC

Wade was past his prime? Haha.
 
BS right back. Don't act like playing with Wade or Allen at the end of their careers is the same as playing with them in their primes. MJ with the wiz was a pretty good player but don't even tell me he was as good as prime time MJ.

CC

What an awful comparison. Keep going, between this post and your wade and bosh =half a pippen post, you're earning your lebronda fan club stripes in spades.
 
Next thing you know these guys will have wade in a wheelchair when his majesty was having to lower himself to share the same court with such a peasant.
 
And once again you refuse to even acknowledge the cold hard fact that Allen not only hit a lot of huge shots in that finals vs the spurs-but THE shot of the whole series without which your hero would have one less ring. So minimize him all you want-but without him on that team things look a lot different

I mean he couldn't have been too far over the hill in order to be able to contribute at that level on the biggest stage in the game.
 
business as the source, hahahaha. Curry has 1 season in his career where he missed more than a handful of games. Keep believing whatever makes you feel better.
Ok.... If ESPN is a better source:
http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/st...arriors-steph-curry-stopped-only-kevin-durant

Due in part to previous ankle injuries, Curry is the biggest bargain in sports thanks to the four-year, $44 million contract he signed in 2012 coming off season-ending surgery. It's the deal that set the table for everything else, a superstar at a super discount that allowed the Warriors to shore up the roster and profit in ways no other team could.
 
Wade was past his prime? Haha.
In the final year of LeBron playing in Miami Wade:
54 games played... 19 ppg. Career low in free throw attempts per game.

NBA Finals:
15.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 2.6 apg on 44% shooting

He looked past his prime in his final Miami year to me and the numbers would indicate it. His scoring dropped in that final year (although high efficiency, but extremely low free throw rate). His efficiency has fallen off a cliff since LeBron left.

It's telling though... Wade played fewer than 60 games twice in the 4 years with LeBron. His body was breaking down.
 
And once again you refuse to even acknowledge the cold hard fact that Allen not only hit a lot of huge shots in that finals vs the spurs-but THE shot of the whole series without which your hero would have one less ring. So minimize him all you want-but without him on that team things look a lot different

I mean he couldn't have been too far over the hill in order to be able to contribute at that level on the biggest stage in the game.
Ray Allen saved the Heat on that one play... I won't go as far to say he saved LeBron... I mean LeBron had 18 points in the 4th quarter and single handily brought the Heat into a position they can win in the 4th quarter.... Which is something that has gotten ignored.

It's a make or miss league. Kerr, Paxson hit their shots, Bulls win championships... If they don't, those series go to a game 7 where MJ likely wins, but things can happen.

Ray Allen nails the shot... Heat win a ring.... Kyle Korver misses a shot, this will likely be a 5 game series.
 
Ok.... If ESPN is a better source:
http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/st...arriors-steph-curry-stopped-only-kevin-durant

Due in part to previous ankle injuries, Curry is the biggest bargain in sports thanks to the four-year, $44 million contract he signed in 2012 coming off season-ending surgery. It's the deal that set the table for everything else, a superstar at a super discount that allowed the Warriors to shore up the roster and profit in ways no other team could.

Haha, hes had 1 year where he played less than 74 games. Darn those bum ankles.
 
Ray Allen saved the Heat on that one play... I won't go as far to say he saved LeBron... I mean LeBron had 18 points in the 4th quarter and single handily brought the Heat into a position they can win in the 4th quarter.... Which is something that has gotten ignored.

It's a make or miss league. Kerr, Paxson hit their shots, Bulls win championships... If they don't, those series go to a game 7 where MJ likely wins, but things can happen.

Ray Allen nails the shot... Heat win a ring.... Kyle Korver misses a shot, this will likely be a 5 game series.

You continue to just make my points for me. Lebron played/is playing with guys that are more than capable of making big plays/shots-just as Jordan did. Which has been what the argument has been about for the last 4 pages.
 
Haha, hes had 1 year where he played less than 74 games. Darn those bum ankles.
Don't laugh at me. That's the prevailing thought within the NBA. It's not even really my opinion.

Curry sprained his right ankle 8x in one season and got surgery on it twice in like 18 months.

BUT HE DIDN'T MISS ANY GAMES!!!!! MUST MEAN HIS ANKLE IS FINE!!!! MUST MEAN HIS TEAM FRIENDLY CONTRACT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS ANKLE ISSUES!!!

Oh, and that year he played in 26 games was because.... He was getting surgery to repair his ankle.

If it's not because of the ankle trouble, why do you think Curry has such an affordable deal with the Warriors?
 
Dude..The lengths you are going to has totally strayed from anything resembling relevance to the MJ/Bron debate. Currys ankles have nothing to do with anything.(well besides the fact that he was hurt during the finals last year- that combined with draymonds suspension and the bogut injury gifted the chosen one a title)....so that would be more relevant I suppose.
 
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Don't laugh at me. That's the prevailing thought within the NBA. It's not even really my opinion.

Curry sprained his right ankle 8x in one season and got surgery on it twice in like 18 months.

BUT HE DIDN'T MISS ANY GAMES!!!!! MUST MEAN HIS ANKLE IS FINE!!!! MUST MEAN HIS TEAM FRIENDLY CONTRACT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS ANKLE ISSUES!!!

Oh, and that year he played in 26 games was because.... He was getting surgery to repair his ankle.

If it's not because of the ankle trouble, why do you think Curry has such an affordable deal with the Warriors?

Because GS front office is smart and has foresight? Keep up bro, its not that hard...
 
Dude..The lengths you are going to has totally strayed from anything resembling relevance to the MJ/Bron debate. Currys ankles have nothing to do with anything.(well besides the fact that he was hurt during the finals last year- that combined with draymonds suspension and the bogut injury gifted the chosen one a title)....so that would be more relevant I suppose.

And that was a sprained knee last year.
 
Why? Athletes have primes no? That means at some point you are past it.
Look, I know you hate LBJ and have some sort thing for Irving but dude, get you head out of your tRump and look sh!t up!

CC

Look what up? You compared an almost 40 yr old Jordan who hadnt played in 3 years to a still very good Dwayne wade. I don't hate lebron, I just don't rank him all that close to mj. At least I'm trying to stay within the realm of reality with my arguments.. you on the other hand..you're the one making absolutely absurd comparisons to try and back up your equally ridiculous claims. If anyone has a bias here it's you. Nowhere in the thread have I gone to crazy land to make my points, which you seem to be a genius at.

Edit-actually in thinking about it-if indeed your flawed argument is correct -and that a world champion Dwayne wade is on par w almost 40 yr old, haven't played in 3 years mj..well, all that does is speak to the greatness of Jordan. So really either way your point does nothing but add to his greatness.
 
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Let's put aside the "Who had better teammates" for now and ask "Does it matter?".

Since this is all about 6-0 vs 3-3(soon to be 4), how good was MJ's comp vs LBJ's?
Here are the finals rankings based on ELO.

See: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-we-calculate-nba-elo-ratings/

Values are the team's ELO going into the finals.

15-GSW - 1802 - W
16-GSW - 1790 - L
98-Jazz - 1762
97-Jazz - 1751
12-OKC - 1737 - W
14-Spurs - 1730 - L
11-Mavs - 1717 - L
13-Spurs - 1711 - W
92-Blazers - 1702
91-Lakers - 1697
96-Sonics - 1695
93-Suns - 1634 * the Knicks were 1696 going into the regional final vs Chi

CC
 
Look what up? You compared an almost 40 yr old Jordan who hadnt played in 3 years to a still very good Dwayne wade.

No I didn't. I compared older Jordan to younger Jordan and was making the same point about Wade.
Yes - MJ was still good in his last years but not the same player as he was with the Bulls. That's the point I was making with Wade. He was still good with LBJ but don't pretend he was in his prime all four years.

CC
 
If you need the facts on how underwhelming the Cavs are without LeBron James and how much their "pretty good" supporting cast just flat out sucks without him.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/19611978/nba-why-lebron-james-finals-mvp

For those without insider... Here's some points from the article.

In the 2017 Finals, James has averaged a triple-double while averaging series-high 41.4 minutes per game. He can't sit on the bench. Against a team that blew teams out at a record pace entering the series, James has actually led his team to a plus-6 margin when he's on the floor.

But that advantage all falls apart when he hits the bench. The LeBron-less Cavs for the series stand at a minus-31 in 26 minutes of action -- a rate so one-sided, it's the equivalent of losing by 57 points in a 48-minute game.

Let that marinate. Without James, the Cavs are getting smacked by a rate of a 57-point rout over a full game.
__________________________________________________

Thanks to the magic of NBAwowy.com, we can look at how the Cavs do with certain players on the court. Let's pull up how they fare when they have two All-Stars on the floor, Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. Let's take James out of the equation. On Friday, that two-star lineup got blasted 14-5 in four minutes. For the season? Here's the score: Cavs 686, Opponents 708. That's right. Even with two four-time All-Stars on the floor, the Cavs have been outscored by 22 points in 342 minutes this season, or minus-3.1 per 48 minutes. You know what the New York Knicks were this season? A minus-3.6.

Think about that. The Cavs without James but with Irving and Love on the floor were basically the Knicks, a team that finished 31-51 and 10 games out of the playoff picture. That's how good he is.

What's going on here? LeBron James is happening. Put just about anybody around him, and that team is going to be really good. Here's another way to think about this. What if we look at how the Cavs do with James on the floor and no Irving, no Love. Again, James by himself without any of his All-Stars. The Cavs, according to NBAwowy tracking, with James and no Irving/Love, have scored 110.4 points per 100 possessions this season. That's crazy good, right up there with the best offenses of the season.

Let's flip this. How do the Cavs score in the Irving and Love lineups without James? Again, these are two of the best scorers in the NBA. Here's how that lineup scores: 108.6 points per 100 possessions, per NBAwowy.com. To recap: The Cavs with LeBron alone do better offensively than the Cavs with Irving and Love going without James. (The defense gets better with James, too, if you were wondering.) If that doesn't spell it out for you, I don't know what will.

Cavs regular season record without LeBron James the last 3 years: 4-23

___________________________________________________

So quick recap. The Cavs get outscored by -3.1 pts/48 minutes when Kyrie and Love are on the floor without LeBron. When Kyrie and Love are on the floor without LeBron, they go from championship contender with LeBron, to the Knicks without.

The Cavs offense is better when it's LeBron on the floor without Kyrie and Love than it is with Kyrie and Love without LeBron. They are obviously better defensively with just LeBron as well.

I think people can spin it however they want, but this is a LeBron show for the Cavs. They can't win without Kyrie playing well and he has played well the last two games... But they're eye candy apart from LeBron. LeBron is the only player that offers substance on this roster.
 
No I didn't. I compared older Jordan to younger Jordan and was making the same point about Wade.
Yes - MJ was still good in his last years but not the same player as he was with the Bulls. That's the point I was making with Wade. He was still good with LBJ but don't pretend he was in his prime all four years.

CC

So you're gonna pretend a Dwayne wade who'd been in the league for 9 or 10 years was already as past his prime as a Michael Jordan who had played for 14 years, then took 3 years off, and played again? You did say "mj with the wizards". It's still a horrible horrible comparison and I think you realize it.

Amazing that Dwayne wade in 2 or 3 years could've aged that rapidly. But I suppose it happens to guys that play with lebron who don't quite perform up to his sycophants unrealistic expectations. Either that or, maybe playing with his highness made him worse. Lot of guys don't like playing with lebron.
 
If you need the facts on how underwhelming the Cavs are without LeBron James and how much their "pretty good" supporting cast just flat out sucks without him.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/19611978/nba-why-lebron-james-finals-mvp

For those without insider... Here's some points from the article.

In the 2017 Finals, James has averaged a triple-double while averaging series-high 41.4 minutes per game. He can't sit on the bench. Against a team that blew teams out at a record pace entering the series, James has actually led his team to a plus-6 margin when he's on the floor.

But that advantage all falls apart when he hits the bench. The LeBron-less Cavs for the series stand at a minus-31 in 26 minutes of action -- a rate so one-sided, it's the equivalent of losing by 57 points in a 48-minute game.

Let that marinate. Without James, the Cavs are getting smacked by a rate of a 57-point rout over a full game.
__________________________________________________

Thanks to the magic of NBAwowy.com, we can look at how the Cavs do with certain players on the court. Let's pull up how they fare when they have two All-Stars on the floor, Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. Let's take James out of the equation. On Friday, that two-star lineup got blasted 14-5 in four minutes. For the season? Here's the score: Cavs 686, Opponents 708. That's right. Even with two four-time All-Stars on the floor, the Cavs have been outscored by 22 points in 342 minutes this season, or minus-3.1 per 48 minutes. You know what the New York Knicks were this season? A minus-3.6.

Think about that. The Cavs without James but with Irving and Love on the floor were basically the Knicks, a team that finished 31-51 and 10 games out of the playoff picture. That's how good he is.

What's going on here? LeBron James is happening. Put just about anybody around him, and that team is going to be really good. Here's another way to think about this. What if we look at how the Cavs do with James on the floor and no Irving, no Love. Again, James by himself without any of his All-Stars. The Cavs, according to NBAwowy tracking, with James and no Irving/Love, have scored 110.4 points per 100 possessions this season. That's crazy good, right up there with the best offenses of the season.

Let's flip this. How do the Cavs score in the Irving and Love lineups without James? Again, these are two of the best scorers in the NBA. Here's how that lineup scores: 108.6 points per 100 possessions, per NBAwowy.com. To recap: The Cavs with LeBron alone do better offensively than the Cavs with Irving and Love going without James. (The defense gets better with James, too, if you were wondering.) If that doesn't spell it out for you, I don't know what will.

Cavs regular season record without LeBron James the last 3 years: 4-23

___________________________________________________

So quick recap. The Cavs get outscored by -3.1 pts/48 minutes when Kyrie and Love are on the floor without LeBron. When Kyrie and Love are on the floor without LeBron, they go from championship contender with LeBron, to the Knicks without.

The Cavs offense is better when it's LeBron on the floor without Kyrie and Love than it is with Kyrie and Love without LeBron. They are obviously better defensively with just LeBron as well.

I think people can spin it however they want, but this is a LeBron show for the Cavs. They can't win without Kyrie playing well and he has played well the last two games... But they're eye candy apart from LeBron. LeBron is the only player that offers substance on this roster.

Cool story
 
So you're gonna pretend a Dwayne wade who'd been in the league for 9 or 10 years was already as past his prime as a Michael Jordan who had played for 14 years, then took 3 years off, and played again? You did say "mj with the wizards". It's still a horrible horrible comparison and I think you realize it.

Amazing that Dwayne wade in 2 or 3 years could've aged that rapidly. But I suppose it happens to guys that play with lebron who don't quite perform up to his sycophants unrealistic expectations. Either that or, maybe playing with his highness made him worse. Lot of guys don't like playing with lebron.

So I think you are finally getting it. My point was that Wade was on the downside of a great career when LBJ arrived not comparing the decline to MJ. Their first year together Wade was still a top player but injuries started to accumulate and the last two years Wade was less effective, especially in the playoffs.

Have there been players come out and say they don't like playing with LBJ? Do you have any examples?

CC
 
So I think you are finally getting it. My point was that Wade was on the downside of a great career when LBJ arrived not comparing the decline to MJ. Their first year together Wade was still a top player but injuries started to accumulate and the last two years Wade was less effective, especially in the playoffs.

Have there been players come out and say they don't like playing with LBJ? Do you have any examples?

CC

No offense but thats still a horrible horrible comparison. Why you chose to use a 40 yr old mj who hadnt played in 3 years as your comparison just shows me that you are quite biased, as theres literally hundreds of other examples you couldve used to try and make your tenuous point.

Anyways, Im sure I recall Chris Bosh saying something like playing with him was a pain in the ass and he didnt recommend it, warning Kevin Love that things are different. Im jsut saying if wade dropped off the cliff as much as you say(which I dont agree with, at all) then perhaps that could be a reason.
 
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No offense but thats still a horrible horrible comparison. Why you chose to use a 40 yr old mj who hadnt played in 3 years as your comparison just shows me that you are quite biased, as theres literally hundreds of other examples you couldve used to try and make your tenuous point.

Anyways, Im sure I recall Chris Bosh saying something like playing with him was a pain in the ass and he didnt recommend it, warning Kevin Love that things are different. Im jsut saying if wade dropped off the cliff as much as you say(which I dont agree with, at all) then perhaps that could be a reason.

I could have used other players but you didn't seem to get my pointt of players having a prime so I used one I was sure you could related to.

Never heard Bosh's comments but I could believe it. He was the man in TO, but kinda the 3rd wheel in MIA. But the same thing happened to Pippin as his two best years were when MJ was playing bball.

CC
 
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