On Cadeau...

[gary-7]

...I just want to lay out some things before we dive into the grinder this week. Take it as you will:

Many of y'all may remember that I started doing the "stuff" write-ups back in the 2014-15 seaosn, largely out of frustration at the self-defeating blunder of not starting Joel Berry. Marcus, to his credit, had the IQ to play Polnt --- and was better at it than RJ is --- but it still never came naturally. JB came out of the womb being a PG. When JB got in the game we were instantly a different and better team, and the numbers were astoundingly better.

In other words, Joel was the best PG in the program as soon as he signed, and came here ready to be a day-one starter. I watched Joel as much as I could find on screen in HS, and saw him live in AAU, and I knew damn well what we had. I watched Cadeau even more in HS (due to his team's media exposure), and also saw him live in AAU, and again, I know damn well what we have. He too became the best PG in the program as soon as he signed, and came in ready to be the day-one starter, and here once again, we are instantly a different and better team when he enters the game.

Here's the bottom line, guys: Freshman PGs will make "freshman" mistakes. Joel made mistakes, EC makes mistakes, hell, PHIL F***ing FORD made mistakes. BUT... Dean had the good sense to make Phil a freshman starter (our first, BTW) --- and even though he already had a damned good Combo PG (John Keuster) as a returning soph --- because he knew Phil was special.

Here's the key difference: When Phil made mistakes, Dean could pull him and coach him up and then put him back in WITHOUT hurting his confidence, because Phil knew his coach had faith in him to be his starting PG. As many of you know, it's different when you're coming off the bench. Mistakes feel bigger and you're afraid to just play, ESPECIALLY when you're a PG. Not starting visibly set JB back, just as it's visibly setting EC back.

Again, I watched these guys myriad times before they got here, and although their respective styles are different, JB and EC are both alpha Floor Generals who need to know they're the lead dog in the pack. Where Joel was the master at moving chess pieces on the fly, Eliot goes at it with Ed Cota flair, but they both need to have full confidence to do their things well. EC has already shown how fast he learns --- e.g., from getting in foul trouble to now playing much-improved D with a total of what?... one foul the past two games?

Finally (and this is glaring right about now), the biggest adjustment issue I'm seeing so far is NOT Cadeau learning to play with his UNC teammates --- the issue is his teammates learning to play with HIM. I'll say it straight-up --- Cadeau's HS (and even AAU) teammates were BETTER at playing with him than our guys are at this point. Lemme tell ya, every one of those guys busted ass to get in running lanes and to their cut spots, and knew damn well to NEVER assume the ball wasn't coming --- hell, even from 90 feet in some cases, or via some impossible angle in heavy traffic.

So... why is that? Well, our guys (especially the other starters) simply haven't spent enough time on the floor with him. Sure, it was fine to run him second team vs RJ in early practices to break in, but frankly, EC should've been running mostly White team for at least the 2-3 weeks leading up to games, and IMO, starting from game-one. In fact, I venture to say we'd be further along now if we had used the opening three games to get him the most possible game minutes with as many guys as possible.

Look. I love that the staff apparently had a come-to-Jesus (or maybe, come-to-Dean) self-evaluation this off-season. Carolina transition is back, baby (!!!), and the X-and-O stuff is fluid, and kudos for the roster-filling and using real depth. WITH THAT SAID... there will always be bumps, and as always, the goal is to peak in March. However, from this vantage point, if we want a shot at the promised land, it will need to be with a CONFIDENT EC at the wheel. Not starting Cadeau ASAP would be, as my mom used to say, "cutting off your nose to spite your face"...

 

[2DDIMOND]

...I just want to lay out some things before we dive into the grinder this week. Take it as you will:

Many of y'all may remember that I started doing the "stuff" write-ups back in the 2014-15 seaosn, largely out of frustration at the self-defeating blunder of not starting Joel Berry. Marcus, to his credit, had the IQ to play Polnt --- and was better at it than RJ is --- but it still never came naturally. JB came out of the womb being a PG. When JB got in the game we were instantly a different and better team, and the numbers were astoundingly better.

In other words, Joel was the best PG in the program as soon as he signed, and came here ready to be a day-one starter. I watched Joel as much as I could find on screen in HS, and saw him live in AAU, and I knew damn well what we had. I watched Cadeau even more in HS (due to his team's media exposure), and also saw him live in AAU, and again, I know damn well what we have. He too became the best PG in the program as soon as he signed, and came in ready to be the day-one starter, and here once again, we are instantly a different and better team when he enters the game.

Here's the bottom line, guys: Freshman PGs will make "freshman" mistakes. Joel made mistakes, EC makes mistakes, hell, PHIL F***ing FORD made mistakes. BUT... Dean had the good sense to make Phil a freshman starter (our first, BTW) --- and even though he already had a damned good Combo PG (John Keuster) as a returning soph --- because he knew Phil was special.

Here's the key difference: When Phil made mistakes, Dean could pull him and coach him up and then put him back in WITHOUT hurting his confidence, because Phil knew his coach had faith in him to be his starting PG. As many of you know, it's different when you're coming off the bench. Mistakes feel bigger and you're afraid to just play, ESPECIALLY when you're a PG. Not starting visibly set JB back, just as it's visibly setting EC back.

Again, I watched these guys myriad times before they got here, and although their respective styles are different, JB and EC are both alpha Floor Generals who need to know they're the lead dog in the pack. Where Joel was the master at moving chess pieces on the fly, Eliot goes at it with Ed Cota flair, but they both need to have full confidence to do their things well. EC has already shown how fast he learns --- e.g., from getting in foul trouble to now playing much-improved D with a total of what?... one foul the past two games?

Finally (and this is glaring right about now), the biggest adjustment issue I'm seeing so far is NOT Cadeau learning to play with his UNC teammates --- the issue is his teammates learning to play with HIM. I'll say it straight-up --- Cadeau's HS (and even AAU) teammates were BETTER at playing with him than our guys are at this point. Lemme tell ya, every one of those guys busted ass to get in running lanes and to their cut spots, and knew damn well to NEVER assume the ball wasn't coming --- hell, even from 90 feet in some cases, or via some impossible angle in heavy traffic.

So... why is that? Well, our guys (especially the other starters) simply haven't spent enough time on the floor with him. Sure, it was fine to run him second team vs RJ in early practices to break in, but frankly, EC should've been running mostly White team for at least the 2-3 weeks leading up to games, and IMO, starting from game-one. In fact, I venture to say we'd be further along now if we had used the opening three games to get him the most possible game minutes with as many guys as possible.

Look. I love that the staff apparently had a come-to-Jesus (or maybe, come-to-Dean) self-evaluation this off-season. Carolina transition is back, baby (!!!), and the X-and-O stuff is fluid, and kudos for the roster-filling and using real depth. WITH THAT SAID... there will always be bumps, and as always, the goal is to peak in March. However, from this vantage point, if we want a shot at the promised land, it will need to be with a CONFIDENT EC at the wheel. Not starting Cadeau ASAP would be, as my mom used to say, "cutting off your nose to spite your face"...

I wish Hubert would read this.

 

[NorCalTarheel]

As if you were living in my brain and reading the script before I say it!

Couldn't agree more with all of it. There will be those of us who think the sky is falling each time EC hits a bump in the road but, my goodness, he needs to be on the floor for us to be hitting on all cylinders come league and March!!

 

[Heels5150]

I 100% concur. EC has to start in order for us to maximize our Teams best chances to be Elite once again after last years debacle of a season. He can’t do that by not being in our starting five. RJ and Cormac’s shooting percentages would elevate tremendously by having EC setting them up and carving up opposing defenses. Time is ticking away and people can say well it’s only November but we need to start gelling and creating our identity for this years team now. No offense to Paxson as I love what he gives us by his tenacious hustle and effort on every play but EC is a very special and generational type of player and talent. Also Hubert calling timeout and taking out Cadeau only to have RJ dribble the ball into the ground and throw up a prayer shot before halftime needs to go! RJ starts his move right at half court with 7 seconds to go is not an efficient way to end halves. Recruits are also paying attention to this as well. We also need to be much more aggressive on defense imo but that is another topic in itself. Congratulations to the Women’s Field Hockey Team in bringing in their 11th National Championship! That was one heck of a game! GDTBATH

 

[Ozheelfan]

Some great points Gary - I hadn’t thought about the alpha-PG mindset.

I’m just hoping that Hubert isn’t falling into the same trap as Roy - doggedly (stubbornly?) loyal to his upper class men all to the detriment of the team…

 

[39 Feet Above Sea Level]

Great and agreeable comments here. After last season, there is no logical reason to drag out this drama.
From Gary’s fingers to your eyes, Coach Davis: hand Elliot the keys at the beginning of the game.

 

[RHFD]

EC is trying to hard he is not playing against a bunch 17 year olds just slow it down a notch & he will be ok.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I don't get the importance of starting a frosh this early in the season. What's wrong with letting the new kid watch the flow of the game for a few minutes before he takes over?

When EC is on the floor, he IS the point guard, right? Nor is he getting relegated to the bench whenever he makes a mistake. So every minute on the floor he is learning his teammates, and them learning him. What EC needs is more minutes, not necessarily to start. And that's what's been happening:

19 min vs Radford
21 min vs Lehigh
23 min vs UC Riverside

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he shouldn't start. In fact, I think starting him against Northern Iowa makes sense. He's had 3 games with increasing minutes to ease into the starting spot. And starting him against #107 Northern Iowa makes more sense to me than giving him his first start against #9 Tennessee, #3 UConn or #14 Kentucky.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Noticing how EC's minutes have inched up made me wonder where those minutes have come from. How are other players' numbers changing?

Many here think Wojcik is the guy who should give up his starting role and minutes to Cadeau. Is that where EC's minutes came from? Well, maybe a little...

Paxson Wojcik

20 min vs Radford​

12 min vs Lehigh​

19 min vs UC Riverside​

What about RJ? Not so much. A drop from last year - which is a good thing - but steady starter-level minutes.

RJ Davis

28 min vs Radford​

29 min vs Lehigh​

28 min vs UC Riverside​

How about Cormac? He's seen a steady decline. His poor shooting vs UCR didn't help.

Cormac Ryan

31 min vs Radford​

25 min vs Lehigh​

22 min vs UC Riverside​

Seth is the other backcourt guy we should look at. Some think he should (and will) play more, especially if his shooting is decent. How decent does it need to be?

Seth Trimble

​

11 min vs Radford​

19 min vs Lehigh​

15 min vs UC Riverside​

So far, it looks like EC's minutes are being pulled from Cormac more than anyone else. But it's early games yet and that could have been for situational reasons.

Personally, I'm among those who expect Paxson to step back as the season wears on. We'll see.

 

[heels4ever14]

...I just want to lay out some things before we dive into the grinder this week. Take it as you will:

Many of y'all may remember that I started doing the "stuff" write-ups back in the 2014-15 seaosn, largely out of frustration at the self-defeating blunder of not starting Joel Berry. Marcus, to his credit, had the IQ to play Polnt --- and was better at it than RJ is --- but it still never came naturally. JB came out of the womb being a PG. When JB got in the game we were instantly a different and better team, and the numbers were astoundingly better.

In other words, Joel was the best PG in the program as soon as he signed, and came here ready to be a day-one starter. I watched Joel as much as I could find on screen in HS, and saw him live in AAU, and I knew damn well what we had. I watched Cadeau even more in HS (due to his team's media exposure), and also saw him live in AAU, and again, I know damn well what we have. He too became the best PG in the program as soon as he signed, and came in ready to be the day-one starter, and here once again, we are instantly a different and better team when he enters the game.

Here's the bottom line, guys: Freshman PGs will make "freshman" mistakes. Joel made mistakes, EC makes mistakes, hell, PHIL F***ing FORD made mistakes. BUT... Dean had the good sense to make Phil a freshman starter (our first, BTW) --- and even though he already had a damned good Combo PG (John Keuster) as a returning soph --- because he knew Phil was special.

Here's the key difference: When Phil made mistakes, Dean could pull him and coach him up and then put him back in WITHOUT hurting his confidence, because Phil knew his coach had faith in him to be his starting PG. As many of you know, it's different when you're coming off the bench. Mistakes feel bigger and you're afraid to just play, ESPECIALLY when you're a PG. Not starting visibly set JB back, just as it's visibly setting EC back.

Again, I watched these guys myriad times before they got here, and although their respective styles are different, JB and EC are both alpha Floor Generals who need to know they're the lead dog in the pack. Where Joel was the master at moving chess pieces on the fly, Eliot goes at it with Ed Cota flair, but they both need to have full confidence to do their things well. EC has already shown how fast he learns --- e.g., from getting in foul trouble to now playing much-improved D with a total of what?... one foul the past two games?

Finally (and this is glaring right about now), the biggest adjustment issue I'm seeing so far is NOT Cadeau learning to play with his UNC teammates --- the issue is his teammates learning to play with HIM. I'll say it straight-up --- Cadeau's HS (and even AAU) teammates were BETTER at playing with him than our guys are at this point. Lemme tell ya, every one of those guys busted ass to get in running lanes and to their cut spots, and knew damn well to NEVER assume the ball wasn't coming --- hell, even from 90 feet in some cases, or via some impossible angle in heavy traffic.

So... why is that? Well, our guys (especially the other starters) simply haven't spent enough time on the floor with him. Sure, it was fine to run him second team vs RJ in early practices to break in, but frankly, EC should've been running mostly White team for at least the 2-3 weeks leading up to games, and IMO, starting from game-one. In fact, I venture to say we'd be further along now if we had used the opening three games to get him the most possible game minutes with as many guys as possible.

Look. I love that the staff apparently had a come-to-Jesus (or maybe, come-to-Dean) self-evaluation this off-season. Carolina transition is back, baby (!!!), and the X-and-O stuff is fluid, and kudos for the roster-filling and using real depth. WITH THAT SAID... there will always be bumps, and as always, the goal is to peak in March. However, from this vantage point, if we want a shot at the promised land, it will need to be with a CONFIDENT EC at the wheel. Not starting Cadeau ASAP would be, as my mom used to say, "cutting off your nose to spite your face"...

Agree on all points Gary. We all know RJ’s size limits him being an off guard in the pros. I am hoping Hubert was showing some loyalty and giving RJ a chance to show he could be a lead guard along with making EC “earn” his spot. However, as you stated, EC is clearly PG 1. Let’s hope Hubert moves him into the starting lineup Wednesday and doesn’t look back.

 

[blazers]

Noticing how EC's minutes have inched up made me wonder where those minutes have come from. How are other players' numbers changing?

Many here think Wojcik is the guy who should give up his starting role and minutes to Cadeau. Is that where EC's minutes came from? Well, maybe a little...

Paxson Wojcik

20 min vs Radford​

12 min vs Lehigh​

19 min vs UC Riverside​

What about RJ? Not so much. A drop from last year - which is a good thing - but steady starter-level minutes.

RJ Davis

28 min vs Radford​

29 min vs Lehigh​

28 min vs UC Riverside​

How about Cormac? He's seen a steady decline. His poor shooting vs UCR didn't help.

Cormac Ryan

31 min vs Radford​

25 min vs Lehigh​

22 min vs UC Riverside​

Seth is the other backcourt guy we should look at. Some think he should (and will) play more, especially if his shooting is decent. How decent does it need to be?

Seth Trimble

​

11 min vs Radford​

19 min vs Lehigh​

15 min vs UC Riverside​

So far, it looks like EC's minutes are being pulled from Cormac more than anyone else. But it's early games yet and that could have been for situational reasons.

Personally, I'm among those who expect Paxson to step back as the season wears on. We'll see.

thanks for the numbers.

 

[ChiShankCity]

I would've started Cadeau on day one. I don't get starting Wojcik though. I think you learn more playing a traditional 4 with that unit. Whether that's Washington or Withers starting and playing 15-20 minutes like Wojcik is. You learn more from that IMO. There's going to be a point that Bacot turns an ankle or something and one of those big guys needs to start. I don't get why it's Wojcik starting.

I'm someone who thinks experience is the greatest teacher. Unless you have a really mentally fragile player, then it might be best to have him sit. We've seen that example a lot in the NFL with rookie QB's. But this isn't the NFL and we play weak competition for the first two weeks of the season. To me, it made more sense for Cadeau to get acclimated by playing before we played real teams.

Oh well, it didn't work out that way and hopefully it all works out in the end. I don't understand why it's Wojcik starting in his place though. That doesn't make any sense to me.

To me, this was a missed opportunity to see what you had earlier in the season against weaker opposition.

 

[ChiShankCity]

What EC needs is more minutes, not necessarily to start. And that's what's been happening:

19 min vs Radford
21 min vs Lehigh
23 min vs UC Riverside

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he shouldn't start. In fact, I think starting him against Northern Iowa makes sense. He's had 3 games with increasing minutes to ease into the starting spot. And starting him against #107 Northern Iowa makes more sense to me than giving him his first start against #9 Tennessee, #3 UConn or #14 Kentucky.

So Cadeau doesn't need to start, but starting him against UNI makes sense? When does Cadeau need to start then?

And this isn't necessarily a minutes thing. It's more of a lineup thing. Once Cadeau is starting he will likely play the most minutes he plays with the starting 5. That is likely the lineup that will close out games apart from situational substitutions. So I think it's pretty important he gets as much time on task game repetitions with RJ, Ryan, Withers, and Bacot (assuming that will be the starting 5).

If it's a minutes thing, why not just start Cadeau and he's the first dude subbed out? Then you can still have this magical crescendo of minutes that always increases linearly.

Maybe it all works out in the end. I don't know what's going to happen. But I would much prefer Cadeau get the time on task with the other 4 starters if that's what it's going to be eventually anyway. Especially once our rotation and sub-patterns change once Cadeau starts.

And I don't know what we gain from Wojcik starting. I think you gain more from starting Withers or Washington. The Wojcik starting part doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

 

[gary-7]

...I just want to lay out some things before we dive into the grinder this week. Take it as you will:

Agree on all points Gary. We all know RJ’s size limits him being an off guard in the pros. I am hoping Hubert was showing some loyalty and giving RJ a chance to show he could be a lead guard along with making EC “earn” his spot. However, as you stated, EC is clearly PG 1. Let’s hope Hubert moves him into the starting lineup Wednesday and doesn’t look back.

Well, on that point, RJ is likely not NBA material, due to the reason you put forth. RJ can play though, and will find a professional home somewhere.

 

[Bubspub88]

I don't get the importance of starting a frosh this early in the season. What's wrong with letting the new kid watch the flow of the game for a few minutes before he takes over?

The problem is that as pg he needs to set the flow of the game. Other starters need to get into the habit of making their cuts and runs as if they will receive the ball in scoring position, not jogging around watching RJ dribble.

I get limiting the minutes if you are concerned about early foul trouble but he should be on a steady minutes increase, not as much for his benefit but for others to become more familiar with how he is directing the offense.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

And this isn't necessarily a minutes thing. It's more of a lineup thing. Once Cadeau is starting he will likely play the most minutes he plays with the starting 5.

Once we get past the obsession over who starts, we run into the more important question of who we want on the floor or on the bench.

For example, we probably don't want both EC and RJ on the bench at the same time very often. Seth and Cormac will do fine, but when you have EC on the bench, you might be better off with Seth and RJ. And when you have RJ on the bench, you might be better off with EC and Cormac. Always have either EC or RJ on the floor.

Which is to say that you may want to start both EC and RJ, but there will be plenty of stretches when only one of them is on the floor. Unless Hubert goes back to an Iron 5 or 6 rotation.

That's the virtue of the short bench approach: your best guys are on the floor together nearly all the time. But we've all seen the disadvantages: running out of gas, injuries, mistakes and, of course, benchers who aren't really ready when needed.

 

[DSouthr]

I don't get the importance of starting a frosh this early in the season. What's wrong with letting the new kid watch the flow of the game for a few minutes before he takes over?

When EC is on the floor, he IS the point guard, right? Nor is he getting relegated to the bench whenever he makes a mistake. So every minute on the floor he is learning his teammates, and them learning him. What EC needs is more minutes, not necessarily to start. And that's what's been happening:

19 min vs Radford
21 min vs Lehigh
23 min vs UC Riverside

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he shouldn't start. In fact, I think starting him against Northern Iowa makes sense. He's had 3 games with increasing minutes to ease into the starting spot. And starting him against #107 Northern Iowa makes more sense to me than giving him his first start against #9 Tennessee, #3 UConn or #14 Kentucky.

So we are now psycho-analyzing Cadeau? Sorry but I just find that funny? WE are now absolutely positive that Cadeau has maybe been a bit off from expectations (actually he is pretty much inline with what my expectations were for him this early) because he does not begin the games from the tip? How dare anyone even as much suggest that maybe, just maybe it has more to do with him being a freshman than anything else? It is good to know that we posters know so much more about Cadeau and his mental state than the UNC coaching staff does? A freshman trying to be the UNC PG, maybe the most difficult position for any freshman to be able to come in and take over, how has that been forgotten? The kid is getting starter minutes, got 22 last game, most minutes from anyone in that game was RJ at 28.

Oh, but it is the combinations that Cadeau is having to play with as opposed to playing with starters? With the way Hubert has been subbing guys in and out this season (thank goodness) there has not been a scholly guy on our roster than Cadeau has not been on court with for any of our games this season. Why is the discussion about who begins the game and not focused on how many minutes a kid plays? I simply do not understand that, I am fine with a different view for sure but for me this feels like a more manufactured concern than anything else and it feels like some strong "reaching" is going to to justify? I am some what concerned with starting such a small back court as Cadeau and RJ, especially having watched our games so far this season (including pre-season) where lesser teams had their guards scoring pretty well. I actually see that as more of a RJ problem than a Cadeau problem but clearly, right or wrong, RJ and Bacot are going to lead the minutes per game. Said this before but RJ simply is not going to grow any taller or all the sudden become ultra quick for a 5'10-11" guard anymore than Paxon will become a quickster with a 40" vertical, LOL.

Sorry guys but I just believe it is not the worst thing, as long as he is getting starter, minutes, for Cadeau to be able to watch the game for a few minutes before he gets in to the fray, let him observe for example the opposing PG, get a feel for what he may be able to do against him, so see if he can see weaknesses that he can exploit. IN our games so far this season, who has been the first guard off the bench, has Cadeau had to sit out most of the first half before he gets in or isn't he the first guard off the bench and usually checking in around the 5min mark?

I believe at some point Cadeau will start, may even be the next game and when he does I do expect Paxon to come off the bench. I am not convinced the kid starting will make that much difference as long as he gets starter minutes. The line up change that I actually do think would make a greater impact is moving Ingram to the 3 and starting either Withers or JWash, I slightly favor Withers there for his athletism and physicality. For now I am much more concerned with Ryan and Paxon missing so many jump shots (that is 2 of the 3 green light shooters)? I do want Seth's minutes to go up, I strongly believe that his defensive pressure is really important, double down on that if his offense has improved, maybe reflected in the last game. Shooting does not always follow from 1 game to the next, at times it doesn't follow from 1 half to the next but defense does tend to travel. A MAJOR change I see from last season is that our defense is now not just Leaky and maybe Bacot, it is all 5 guys on the court and the communication is not perfect but it is getting way better and in my opinion already way past our defensive efforts last season. As I shared, guys this is just my opinion and clearly others see it differently, that is fine because opinions are not required to match lock step are they? LOL

 

[ChiShankCity]

Once we get past the obsession over who starts, we run into the more important question of who we want on the floor or on the bench.

For example, we probably don't want both EC and RJ on the bench at the same time very often. Seth and Cormac will do fine, but when you have EC on the bench, you might be better off with Seth and RJ. And when you have RJ on the bench, you might be better off with EC and Cormac. Always have either EC or RJ on the floor.

Which is to say that you may want to start both EC and RJ, but there will be plenty of stretches when only one of them is on the floor. Unless Hubert goes back to an Iron 5 or 6 rotation.

That's the virtue of the short bench approach: your best guys are on the floor together nearly all the time. But we've all seen the disadvantages: running out of gas, injuries, mistakes and, of course, benchers who aren't really ready when needed.

Well, starting the game is important because your 5 starters are likely to play together to start the game (obviously), to start the second half, and to close the game. This isn't 100% of the time. Desmond Hubert wasn't going to finish the game even though he started. But the majority of the time, those are 3 moments in a game that the same lineup is on the floor for. I know there are exceptions but the majority of times those lineups play together during those 3 periods.

And if starting wasn't important...

Why didn't Desmond Hubert start every game in 2012-13? I'm sure PJ Hairston was getting plenty of minutes off the bench. Desmond Hubert was only getting 10-15 minutes per start. PJ was definitely playing more and the more consequential minutes. So why make the change? Why didn't Joel James start every game in 2013-14? That was more of a 9-1-1 situation. We were 11-7 at one point, then ripped off 12 straight wins after Meeks (as a freshman) started over James and James' minutes shrunk.

I also don't know what I want/don't want rotation wise because I haven't seen Cadeau start, lol. I have an idea. Most people here know that I want a couple of shooters on the floor at all times. I'd like to know if Cadeau can be one of those shooters. Also, you can easily stagger your lineup. It doesn't take a rocket scientist for Hubert to make sure he always has RJ or Cadeau on the floor without going over some magical minute number. This isn't about that.

 

[DSouthr]

Once we get past the obsession over who starts, we run into the more important question of who we want on the floor or on the bench.

For example, we probably don't want both EC and RJ on the bench at the same time very often. Seth and Cormac will do fine, but when you have EC on the bench, you might be better off with Seth and RJ. And when you have RJ on the bench, you might be better off with EC and Cormac. Always have either EC or RJ on the floor.

Which is to say that you may want to start both EC and RJ, but there will be plenty of stretches when only one of them is on the floor. Unless Hubert goes back to an Iron 5 or 6 rotation.

That's the virtue of the short bench approach: your best guys are on the floor together nearly all the time. But we've all seen the disadvantages: running out of gas, injuries, mistakes and, of course, benchers who aren't really ready when needed.

WW, clearly I am a bit more comfortable with Seth than most seem to be, said this before we play any exhibition, I am more inclined to want Cadeau to start (and I do think he will shortly) and his primary back up be Seth rather than RJ. RJ does try, the effort from the kid is always there but the pace of the game just seems to slow down when he is at the point and opposing guards seem to go on scoring streaks. I like RJ WAY MORE when he is hunting his on offensive ops rather than leading the lead an responsible for setting up good looks for his mates (the primary job of a PG IMO). RJ has, at least to me always been a 2 guard trying to be a PG and I don't think it has gone real well. I believe that RJ's experience at the point not only makes him a better 2 guard but his experience playing beside Cadeau is a strong asset for the kid to lean on in game. And I really think the Seth/Ryan back court would have teeth on both ends and be a nice change up from the EC/RJ back court for other teams to have to figure out.

One other thing, maybe a bit outside of this discussion but a thing that bugs me. I have seen several times posters as well as others comment that Withers is a guy that could as well play the 3 and I just want to go on record that 2 things I prefer not to see at any point forward for this season is Withers spending a single minute as our wing and Bacot shooting treys. Withers is a 4 that can play the 5 if he had to, Ingram is (my opinion) a 3 that can play the 4. And why do I want them both to start, because I want us to set the physicality and rebounding tone from the opening tip, send that message early that if you think we are soft you will be educated.

 

[gary-7]

Once we get past the obsession over who starts, we run into the more important question of who we want on the floor or on the bench.

For example, we probably don't want both EC and RJ on the bench at the same time very often. Seth and Cormac will do fine, but when you have EC on the bench, you might be better off with Seth and RJ. And when you have RJ on the bench, you might be better off with EC and Cormac. Always have either EC or RJ on the floor.

Which is to say that you may want to start both EC and RJ, but there will be plenty of stretches when only one of them is on the floor. Unless Hubert goes back to an Iron 5 or 6 rotation.

That's the virtue of the short bench approach: your best guys are on the floor together nearly all the time. But we've all seen the disadvantages: running out of gas, injuries, mistakes and, of course, benchers who aren't really ready when needed.

Starting matters, especially in the case of Carolina PGs. It has proven out over and over agtain.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

Best lineup (been saying this since we signed them all!): EC, RJ, Ingram, Withers, Bacot-they have everything covered from shooting to rebounding-to protecting the rim-to running peeps to death! 1st off = Ryan or JWash depending on situation or who needs a rest. I don't care who starts but I do care who gets the most minutes and who plays at crunch time! EC will soon have this car driving at lightspeed and Hubs bringing him along this way ensures all know they have to earn their time! I agree that many coaches would have handed him the keys day 1, but I also don't see anything wrong with giving him some seasoning first! Can't wait to see how this plays out!

 

[ChiShankCity]

Starting matters, especially in the case of Carolina PGs. It has proven out over and over agtain.

It's not even just PG's. We've seen time and time again that starting the right 5 is important and has changed seasons (Desmond Hubert-PJ Hairston, Joel James-Kennedy Meeks as non PG's).

 

[DSouthr]

Best lineup (been saying this since we signed them all!): EC, RJ, Ingram, Withers, Bacot-they have everything covered from shooting to rebounding-to protecting the rim-to running peeps to death! 1st off = Ryan or JWash depending on situation or who needs a rest. I don't care who starts but I do care who gets the most minutes and who plays at crunch time! EC will soon have this car driving at lightspeed and Hubs bringing him along this way ensures all know they have to earn their time! I agree that many coaches would have handed him the keys day 1, but I also don't see anything wrong with giving him some seasoning first! Can't wait to see how this plays out!

TP, I think that once we get in to stronger competition levels, especially better front courts the point of starting Withers with Ingram will be easier to see. I look at Withers and Ingram so far this season and I see what I thought I would see from their play. Withers is more athletically physical and Ingram is more of a finess guy. Now both have looked good switching off on the court and I don't think it is a problem for either to get switched off on to a wing but I want my physical strong athletic beast to battle down low against good front courts. Feel like we have given up to many boards against teams we should completely own the boards with. I feel like the 3 guard look is best as a change to rather than a start with because physicality is a tone you need to set from the very tip of the game.

 

[DSouthr]

Starting matters, especially in the case of Carolina PGs. It has proven out over and over agtain.

OK, LOL, so tell me gary, would Cadeau starting our last game and playing for the same 22mins he actually did play, exactly how would that have changed that game's out come? Now I can accept that Cadeau playing more minutes may have effected the out come of that game but his playing the same number of minutes and the only difference be that he was in the game at tip off, makes no sense to me. Thou I can and have made the case that a young kid being able to actually watch the game for a few minutes before he comes in can actually be a benefit.

And remind me again what Dean Smith's take on freshmen was? LOL Well dummy me while I agree with Dean Smith...LOL And yes Dean started Phil Ford, other wise known as Mr UNC. How about we not elevate this young freshman to that level before he earns it? Make no mistake about this, there are 3 former UNC players that stand above ALL others, those 3 being Phil Ford, Jordan, and Hansbourgh and ALL 3 started as freshmen from their very first game, Dean started 2 of them and NEVER regretted it. I have no idea, nor does anyone else, if one day Cadeau could join that trio (I doubt it because I doubt he stay in the college game long enough), kid is a wonderful talent and we are very fortunate to have him but lets not count our chickens until they actually do hatch?

 

[gary-7]

OK, LOL, so tell me gary, would Cadeau starting our last game and playing for the same 22mins he actually did play, exactly how would that have changed that game's out come? Now I can accept that Cadeau playing more minutes may have effected the out come of that game but his playing the same number of minutes and the only difference be that he was in the game at tip off, makes no sense to me. Thou I can and have made the case that a young kid being able to actually watch the game for a few minutes before he comes in can actually be a benefit.

How about we not elevate this young freshman to that level before he earns it?

Come on, D. Where are you even going with that? Dean started way more frosh (incl. O'Koren, Perkins, etc, etc, etc) than the ones you mentioned, and for good reason in each case. Fortunately, Dean didn't sabotage himself and say "How about we not elevate this young freshman...?" He properly evaluated that, inevitable mistakes notwithstanding (which they all made), the kid in question needed to start.

And seriously... EC most certainly IS special. There should be ZERO doubt about that, just as there should've been zero doubt about that with Butter or Berry.

And what the heck is your point about the last game outcome? Hell, we probably win that one if Hubert put 12 names in a hat and picked 5. The (should be) obvious point is that we are BETTER when EC is on the floor, and the MORE he's on the floor (22 minutes ain't enough, quite frankly), the better he will be, the better his teammates will be, and the better the team performance will be.

As I pointed out in the OP, not starting him from game-one has already been a net setback, We've had 3 games and an exhibition that could have been opportunities to accelerate the learning curves for everyone, but alas, now we're entering the grinder with that to catch up with.

The bottom line question is, what good is returning to Carolina basketball if you hafta wait until your "backup" PG gets in to actually execute it?

 

[ChiShankCity]

The "I don't care who starts" stuff is wild, lol.

 

[adwood81]

Certain players have what I call it. It is hard to define but it is an ability to seemingly know what is going to happen before it happens. EC has it. I have not watched as much as Gary has of him and I am not a coach but the way he flows in a game, his court vision and ability to make difficult plays look easy make this team better. Starting is important and players know it. You may find some who adapt and fill a 6th man roll but you don't find many alpha's that are ever happy with this.

 

[2DDIMOND]

OK, LOL, so tell me gary, would Cadeau starting our last game and playing for the same 22mins he actually did play, exactly how would that have changed that game's out come? Now I can accept that Cadeau playing more minutes may have effected the out come of that game but his playing the same number of minutes and the only difference be that he was in the game at tip off, makes no sense to me. Thou I can and have made the case that a young kid being able to actually watch the game for a few minutes before he comes in can actually be a benefit.

And remind me again what Dean Smith's take on freshmen was? LOL Well dummy me while I agree with Dean Smith...LOL And yes Dean started Phil Ford, other wise known as Mr UNC. How about we not elevate this young freshman to that level before he earns it? Make no mistake about this, there are 3 former UNC players that stand above ALL others, those 3 being Phil Ford, Jordan, and Hansbourgh and ALL 3 started as freshmen from their very first game, Dean started 2 of them and NEVER regretted it. I have no idea, nor does anyone else, if one day Cadeau could join that trio (I doubt it because I doubt he stay in the college game long enough), kid is a wonderful talent and we are very fortunate to have him but lets not count our chickens until they actually do hatch?

It's a mindset DSouth. There's a thing called the pygmalion effect, look it up if you're not familiar with it. If EC knows Hubert has the confidence in him to run the show, his performance will be better. To date, Hubert has not shown that confidence in him, therefore the inhibited performance. I think EC is strong enough mentally and knows how good he really is, so eventually it will iron itself out. The cream usually always rises to the top, let's hope that's the case in this situation.

 

[imajericho]

Cadeau can make some nifty passes for sure. He looks for them. And it's a welcome sight.

But the best pass this season belongs to RJ Davis.

Cadeaus start of the season has not been stellar. It's about average for what I would expect as a freshman. Turnovers and really poor shooting.

What people don't realize about expecting a PG just to show up and lead the fast break to the UNC glory days is that requires the rest of the players to be able to do it. You don't think RJ or whoever else could pass ahead to a Tyler Zeller massively taller than the competition while outrunning them down the court?

Until we start actually buying in fully to the fast break, the fast break isn't gonna be back like it was.

Look no further than the inbounding. With Lawson and Felton on a made basket or miss they were already heading up court immediately as the inbounder immediately ran to the baseline to pass it to them and they barreled it down at the defense. If the PG was closest he went to the baseline and quickly tossed it to the nearest heel and began sprinting down court full force as that nearest heel simply tossed it back to them.

Everything from how our pgs wait for an inbounder or sit there not moving for the inbounds pass says we do NOT actually want to play that fast break game as before. And that's nothing more than a coaching decision for our style. Cadeau isn't bringing it back if our style is what it is. And Cadeau isn't breaking down defenses if he can't shoot and they can sag off him into a passing lane and make his drive not a threat to pass out of.

 

[gary-7]

Certain players have what I call it. It is hard to define but it is an ability to seemingly know what is going to happen before it happens. EC has it. I have not watched as much as Gary has of him and I am not a coach but the way he flows in a game, his court vision and ability to make difficult plays look easy make this team better. Starting is important and players know it. You may find some who adapt and fill a 6th man roll but you don't find many alpha's that are ever happy with this.

Spot on.

 

[gary-7]

Cadeau can make some nifty passes for sure. He looks for them. And it's a welcome sight.

But the best pass this season belongs to RJ Davis.

Cadeaus start of the season has not been stellar. It's about average for what I would expect as a freshman. Turnovers and really poor shooting.

What people don't realize about expecting a PG just to show up and lead the fast break to the UNC glory days is that requires the rest of the players to be able to do it. You don't think RJ or whoever else could pass ahead to a Tyler Zeller massively taller than the competition while outrunning them down the court?

Until we start actually buying in fully to the fast break, the fast break isn't gonna be back like it was.

Look no further than the inbounding. With Lawson and Felton on a made basket or miss they were already heading up court immediately as the inbounder immediately ran to the baseline to pass it to them and they barreled it down at the defense. If the PG was closest he went to the baseline and quickly tossed it to the nearest heel and began sprinting down court full force as that nearest heel simply tossed it back to them.

Everything from how our pgs wait for an inbounder or sit there not moving for the inbounds pass says we do NOT actually want to play that fast break game as before. And that's nothing more than a coaching decision for our style. Cadeau isn't bringing it back if our style is what it is. And Cadeau isn't breaking down defenses if he can't shoot and they can sag off him into a passing lane and make his drive not a threat to pass out of.

...and sonewhere, somehow, the whole dynamic of cause-and-effect just got lost.

Your (quite correct) point about everyone needing to buy into the break for it to work speaks EXACTLY to why Cadeau needs the keys and minutes, and why his teammates need to know what's up and run their lanes and keep their dadgummed eyes open.

 

[TarHeelFanWV]

I dont mind Ryan still starting regardless of his recent slump. He is a proven shooter and has been doing it his entire career. Wojcik came from a small school where he had 1 decent scoring year (last year). Wojcik is not proven and it has shown. He gets everything blocked and I am not seeing him do absolutely anything other than a few good rebounds here and there.

I know Ryan will eventually get out of this slump.

Cadeau needs to start because I believe his passing in the first few minutes of the game can get us a jump start on other opponents. Lets say neither Cadeau or Wojcik can shoot, at least Cadeau brings athleticism, defense, and great passing ability.

 

[Bubspub88]

Everything from how our pgs wait for an inbounder or sit there not moving for the inbounds pass says we do NOT actually want to play that fast break game as before.

That is the one of the biggest pet peeves I have noticed over the last several seasons - the pg waiting for an inbound. In junior high we designated who would inbound off a made basket so we could push the tempo. It seems like every game there are a half dozen cases where the pg is by himself with 4 guts heading down the court. It's the little things like that where UNC has really lost its edge it seems.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

So we are now psycho-analyzing Cadeau? Sorry but I just find that funny? WE are now absolutely positive that Cadeau has maybe been a bit off from expectations (actually he is pretty much inline with what my expectations were for him this early) because he does not begin the games from the tip? How dare anyone even as much suggest that maybe, just maybe it has more to do with him being a freshman than anything else? It is good to know that we posters know so much more about Cadeau and his mental state than the UNC coaching staff does? A freshman trying to be the UNC PG, maybe the most difficult position for any freshman to be able to come in and take over, how has that been forgotten? The kid is getting starter minutes, got 22 last game, most minutes from anyone in that game was RJ at 28.

Oh, but it is the combinations that Cadeau is having to play with as opposed to playing with starters? With the way Hubert has been subbing guys in and out this season (thank goodness) there has not been a scholly guy on our roster than Cadeau has not been on court with for any of our games this season. Why is the discussion about who begins the game and not focused on how many minutes a kid plays? I simply do not understand that, I am fine with a different view for sure but for me this feels like a more manufactured concern than anything else and it feels like some strong "reaching" is going to to justify? I am some what concerned with starting such a small back court as Cadeau and RJ, especially having watched our games so far this season (including pre-season) where lesser teams had their guards scoring pretty well. I actually see that as more of a RJ problem than a Cadeau problem but clearly, right or wrong, RJ and Bacot are going to lead the minutes per game. Said this before but RJ simply is not going to grow any taller or all the sudden become ultra quick for a 5'10-11" guard anymore than Paxon will become a quickster with a 40" vertical, LOL.

Sorry guys but I just believe it is not the worst thing, as long as he is getting starter, minutes, for Cadeau to be able to watch the game for a few minutes before he gets in to the fray, let him observe for example the opposing PG, get a feel for what he may be able to do against him, so see if he can see weaknesses that he can exploit. IN our games so far this season, who has been the first guard off the bench, has Cadeau had to sit out most of the first half before he gets in or isn't he the first guard off the bench and usually checking in around the 5min mark?

I believe at some point Cadeau will start, may even be the next game and when he does I do expect Paxon to come off the bench. I am not convinced the kid starting will make that much difference as long as he gets starter minutes. The line up change that I actually do think would make a greater impact is moving Ingram to the 3 and starting either Withers or JWash, I slightly favor Withers there for his athletism and physicality. For now I am much more concerned with Ryan and Paxon missing so many jump shots (that is 2 of the 3 green light shooters)? I do want Seth's minutes to go up, I strongly believe that his defensive pressure is really important, double down on that if his offense has improved, maybe reflected in the last game. Shooting does not always follow from 1 game to the next, at times it doesn't follow from 1 half to the next but defense does tend to travel. A MAJOR change I see from last season is that our defense is now not just Leaky and maybe Bacot, it is all 5 guys on the court and the communication is not perfect but it is getting way better and in my opinion already way past our defensive efforts last season. As I shared, guys this is just my opinion and clearly others see it differently, that is fine because opinions are not required to match lock step are they? LOL

I have no idea why you wrote that Tolstoyesque novel in response to my post. I do thank you for the occasional paragraph break, though.

 

[DSouthr]

I have no idea why you wrote that Tolstoyesque novel in response to my post. I do thank you for the occasional paragraph break, though.

I believe I was actually agreeing with you WW? LOL

 

[DSouthr]

It's a mindset DSouth. There's a thing called the pygmalion effect, look it up if you're not familiar with it. If EC knows Hubert has the confidence in him to run the show, his performance will be better. To date, Hubert has not shown that confidence in him, therefore the inhibited performance. I think EC is strong enough mentally and knows how good he really is, so eventually it will iron itself out. The cream usually always rises to the top, let's hope that's the case in this situation.

So Hubert has no confidence in Cadeau because he has not started him yet? And yet Hubert played a kid he had no confidence in 22 mins in the last game? That make any sense to you cause it makes none to me... What does make sense to me is that Hubert is easing the kid in to this, letting him learn, giving him the time to learn. I may not agree with Hubert's view on RJ, he very clearly believes more in RJ as a PG than I do. But when you consider that RJ is a senior and has started for now 4yrs and was our starting PG in a national title game, it is not at all surprising that he feels comfortable with RJ at the point as he eases Cadeau in to the college game.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

One other thing, maybe a bit outside of this discussion but a thing that bugs me. I have seen several times posters as well as others comment that Withers is a guy that could as well play the 3 and I just want to go on record that 2 things I prefer not to see at any point forward for this season is Withers spending a single minute as our wing and Bacot shooting treys. Withers is a 4 that can play the 5 if he had to, Ingram is (my opinion) a 3 that can play the 4. And why do I want them both to start, because I want us to set the physicality and rebounding tone from the opening tip, send that message early that if you think we are soft you will be educated.

I agree with most of that, but I see Withers as more of a 4/3 than a 4/5. He's a bit smaller and quicker than I was expecting from his Louisville clips.

With Ingram, a 3/4, and Withers, a 4/3, on the floor together, SF and PF become basically interchangeable. We're more used to thinking of SG and SF as interchangeable, but this might be even better. Especially if we are often playing 2 PGs in the backcourt.

Whether things pan out that way may depend on Withers's 3 point shooting. He took 41% of his shots from deep last season, hitting 41% (not a typo).

I don't agree that Withers is a 4/5. Sure, we know he played in the post for Louisville. And did OK. But I don't see that being a good fit for him or the team. Nor do we need him there - unless maybe we run into a buzzsaw smaller team with Bacot on the bench.

I'm reminded of Duke's Amile Jefferson from a few seasons back. He was a 3/4, in my opinion (6'8 195 as a frosh), but K forced him into the post for much of his career. Where he acquitted himself quite well. He also somewhat grew into the position, adding an inch and 30 pounds along the way. I mention him because I would liked to have recruited him, but we didn't need him.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I believe I was actually agreeing with you WW? LOL

LOL

That's what I thought when I read it, as you echoed several of my points. But you started out like you were taking me to task for unlicensed psychoanalysis. Hence my response.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

Both-"It is not important who starts, but more important who finishes" AND "I want RJ, Bacot, Ingram, Withers, and EC to start"-can be true at the same time! Once again, this idea is not the same as "I don't care who starts" I really believe we are making too much out of this and I believe that EC will eventually start, but I know the team looks really good and I love the learning curve they are showing as individuals and a collective! Once we start hitting a few shots and prove we can take a few punches from the biguns, this team will soar!

BTW: watching D and G-7 "debate" feels like watching your parents argue!

 

[2DDIMOND]

So Hubert has no confidence in Cadeau because he has not started him yet? And yet Hubert played a kid he had no confidence in 22 mins in the last game? That make any sense to you cause it makes none to me... What does make sense to me is that Hubert is easing the kid in to this, letting him learn, giving him the time to learn. I may not agree with Hubert's view on RJ, he very clearly believes more in RJ as a PG than I do. But when you consider that RJ is a senior and has started for now 4yrs and was our starting PG in a national title game, it is not at all surprising that he feels comfortable with RJ at the point as he eases Cadeau in to the college game.

I didn't say "no confidence", I said enough confidence to let EC run the show. Hubert has not shown that he has enough confidence in Cadeau to completely give him the keys.........yet. Surely he has confidence enough to let him play 20 min plus, but the point you are missing is that Cadeau will become much more confident, and the Alpha we need him to be once Hubert does display that kind of confidence in him. Not that hard to understand, we'll just have to agree that we look at this differently.