Wojcik, Cadeau, and Trimble +/- last night
- Thread starter DaveChapelle
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I know I’m just one guy and to each his own but I hate +/- It is so hard to take into account what other people are in game at that point, and circumstances of others on the court same time as you. Are the other 4 making or missing shots, getting torched on defense. Etc. nothing to do with that player. If you could do +/- on one on one games or even look at +/- of individual player vs player matchups in the game, that would be more meaningful. I know youn can’t do that.
But I put more credence in - say a guy on opposing team is hot and we bring in Seth or Cormac or withers to shut him down. How much does that guy score from there on? Same with if an advantage arises on offensive end due to opposing player fouls or lesser talent. How does -‘say - bacot or HI exploit that one on one advantage
But I put more credence in - say a guy on opposing team is hot and we bring in Seth or Cormac or withers to shut him down. How much does that guy score from there on? Same with if an advantage arises on offensive end due to opposing player fouls or lesser talent. How does -‘say - bacot or HI exploit that one on one advantage
Did you watch the game or just looking at the box score? When Cadeau is out we lose our primary ball handler and the only one left is RJ. His awful shooting night probably had something to do with that
Alabama was refusing to guard Trimble and Cadeau on the perimeter. They were essentially playing a junk zone style defense, and it allowed them to clog the paint and double Armando. When Wojcik was in they were guarding him on the perimeter, giving us much better spacing and opening up the paint so RJ could drive.
Yes I watched the game. I watched how Bama refused to guard Trimble/Cadeau on the perimeter, and how it resulted in a clogged lane and Bacot double teams. I watched Cadeau miss all his layup attempts trying to drive into that clogged middle, and how he drew no fouls.
Yes RJ shot poorly from the perimeter. But once Wojcik was in, Bama started guarding him and it spaced the floor better. And that was the only time all game that RJ had room to drive to the rim.
Cadeau was -10 in only 13 minutes. It was because our team played its worst basketball of the night when Cadeau was on the floor. Trimble also played poorly, and didn't even give us anything on defense. The game film shows all of this. Bama game planned to use our poor shooting guards Cadeau/Trimble against us and it worked. Benching them for Wojcik allowed our offense to play significantly better.
Has anybody heard from Gary? Not jabbing him. He knows a lot. But he had to be beside himself with how he c was used last night- regardless of how others feel about it or if it had merit.
To the point of Gary not even being able to post -‘because I’m guessing he would just obliterate hubs - whether one feels that is right or wrong
To the point of Gary not even being able to post -‘because I’m guessing he would just obliterate hubs - whether one feels that is right or wrong
Cadeau did in fact have the worst +/- on the team last night.
That's not an indictment of Cadeau. Alabama simply decided not to guard him on the perimeter, and it hurt us. Same for Trimble. Hopefully they both use it as motivation to work hard on their perimeter games this offseason.
Wojcik had the best +/- last night. Our team played its absolute best when he was on the floor. It wasn't because he suddenly became a great player. It was simply bc Bama chose to guard him at the 3pt line and that opened up everything for the other players. The only time RJ was successful at driving for layups and drawing shooting fouls was when Wojcik was on the floor, bc the floor was spaced better.
That's not an indictment of Cadeau. Alabama simply decided not to guard him on the perimeter, and it hurt us. Same for Trimble. Hopefully they both use it as motivation to work hard on their perimeter games this offseason.
Wojcik had the best +/- last night. Our team played its absolute best when he was on the floor. It wasn't because he suddenly became a great player. It was simply bc Bama chose to guard him at the 3pt line and that opened up everything for the other players. The only time RJ was successful at driving for layups and drawing shooting fouls was when Wojcik was on the floor, bc the floor was spaced better.
I don't think this is Wojcik topic. He played well and we were clearly better defensively with him on the floor.
My question is if Cadeau's out there, can you get RJ more on the move without the ball and get him in better positions in the second half? I mean, RJ wasn't good with Cadeau in the first half either so there's no guarantee in either direction.
Just me personally, if the season is on the line, I'm playing my 5 best players. No offense to Wojcik. Again, he did a fine job yesterday and he wasn't the reason for the loss. If they beat me with my 5 best, then so be it.
It is a little alarming though. In elimination games at all basketball levels, the coaches typically play who they trust. It's quite an indictment IMO on Cadeau that Hubert trusted Wojcik over him for such an extended period. Whether that's justified or not, idk. I'll leave that up to the head coach.
It's just not a good look for a PG who has been called "generational" here much more often than disappointing.
My question is if Cadeau's out there, can you get RJ more on the move without the ball and get him in better positions in the second half? I mean, RJ wasn't good with Cadeau in the first half either so there's no guarantee in either direction.
Just me personally, if the season is on the line, I'm playing my 5 best players. No offense to Wojcik. Again, he did a fine job yesterday and he wasn't the reason for the loss. If they beat me with my 5 best, then so be it.
It is a little alarming though. In elimination games at all basketball levels, the coaches typically play who they trust. It's quite an indictment IMO on Cadeau that Hubert trusted Wojcik over him for such an extended period. Whether that's justified or not, idk. I'll leave that up to the head coach.
It's just not a good look for a PG who has been called "generational" here much more often than disappointing.
I've already answered this multiple times.
When Cadeau (or Trimble) was out there Bama refused to guard them on the perimeter. This shrunk the floor, clogged the lane, and put more defenders around our best players.
The numbers don't lie. The video doesn't lie. We played bad basketball last night when we had guards on the floor that Bama didn't have to defend. We played our best basketball with Wojcik out there purely bc Bama guarded him and it spaced the floor. This is why championship level college and pro teams always have shooters on the floor.
Yes - there is so much back and forth discussion on sub and pt patterns, all good discussions. I’d rather roll with Trimble and ec than so many minutes for paxson. If pw was a better option why did he get so few minutes during the year? Why try new things for first time in midst of fight for your season life?
I agree with going with your overall best 5 - 6 all year which includes ec and Seth.
Of course all of this is moot if rj performs at even 20% of his normal self - including making just a couple WIDE OPEN 3s or 2s.
Nobody wanted it more than him. Maybe he was pressing - wanting it too bad. It happens to best of players. Which is why success in one and done tournaments like ncaa should never be taken for granted but likely often is including by me and including what this team DID accomplish this year compared to where they started ranked. 3rd in ACC - around 18-25 in national rankings.
I agree with going with your overall best 5 - 6 all year which includes ec and Seth.
Of course all of this is moot if rj performs at even 20% of his normal self - including making just a couple WIDE OPEN 3s or 2s.
Nobody wanted it more than him. Maybe he was pressing - wanting it too bad. It happens to best of players. Which is why success in one and done tournaments like ncaa should never be taken for granted but likely often is including by me and including what this team DID accomplish this year compared to where they started ranked. 3rd in ACC - around 18-25 in national rankings.
You could put a stop sign out there with 4 players and if those 4 players made shots and the other team didn't the +/- would have chappell screaming to start a stop sign! I am pretty much convinced that the chappell poster is actually SJung by another screen name and frankly, he made more sense as SJung.
Those are interesting numbers, but the only ones that matter are:
UNC 54 + 33 = 87
Ala 46 + 43 = 89
Say what you want about plusses and minuses, but we scored 54 with EC and Trimble on the court, but only 33 without them. Bama's output was about the same either way.
UNC 54 + 33 = 87
Ala 46 + 43 = 89
Say what you want about plusses and minuses, but we scored 54 with EC and Trimble on the court, but only 33 without them. Bama's output was about the same either way.
He shot pretty terrible with Cadeau in. You guys are trying to make what you want to be true the reality. Cadeaus defense rating last night was bad.
Agreed. Maybe I’m oversimplifying but couldn’t there be some middle ground where hubs could have ec or Seth in the game more and tell them “don’t take the threes - attack / drive toward the lane for a 10-12 footer or drive and dish to bacot / HI or lockouts to 3s to rj Cormac or hi? Seth and ec in the game doesn’t mean they are required to shoot and hit open 3s. Both are above average ball handlers and passers. I think we were way more limited on offense with Paxson vs ec or Seth. And paxson vs Seth on defense? Seth wins that and it’s not even close.
Went on a 11-3 run in the 1st half with Wojcik on the court and not EC or Trimble.
Lost our lead in the 2nd half in the first 4.5 minutes when Cadeau was on the court in which I believe he missed an easy layup, had a turnover, missed 2 very far off 3 pointers (1 was an airball if I remember which didn't let us possibly offensively rebound it), and I believe he twice passed out of a wide open position from near the basket and around the elbow (I'd have to rewatch).
The point is the offense couldn't move with him on the court and them ignoring him. The only time it could was off rebounds and transition, but they easily could outdo it on the opposite end more than we could - which again the numbers says Trimble, Cadeau, and Washington were our worst defenders last night.
We scored 31 points in the first half with Cadeau and Trimble on the floor. From the 5:55 mark through the final seconds of the first half, UNC didn't have Cadeau or Trimble on the floor.
In those 5:52, UNC scored 23 points.
By my count: 9/14 FG, 5/7 3PT
There's 0 debate that UNC played better with Wojcik on the floor than Cadeau. Whether that means you're ok with Wojcik playing more than Cadeau despite that... That's up to everyone's individual opinion.
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The other thing is whatever lineup you had with Wojcik, it probably saw a pretty insignificant amount of time together throughout the season. Again, UNC played better with Wojcik on the floor, but that's a lot of faith to put into a very inexperienced lineup in terms of playing time in an elimination game. You throw a lot of things out the window during the NCAA Tournament though.
But that's more of an NBA criticism because the lineup data in the NBA is much more available, so everyone knows if a lineup a coach throws out only has 15 minutes of game time playing with one another during the regular season.
In college, you typically play the results. If it works, the coach made a good decision. If it doesn't, the coach made a dumb decision.
But that's more of an NBA criticism because the lineup data in the NBA is much more available, so everyone knows if a lineup a coach throws out only has 15 minutes of game time playing with one another during the regular season.
In college, you typically play the results. If it works, the coach made a good decision. If it doesn't, the coach made a dumb decision.
Wojcik wasn't bad, but don't let the +/- on him fool you. With a minute and a half to go we were up 85-82 with Wojcik on the bench when Withers came in and had his disastrous sequence there, so he got saved from a quick -5 by sitting during that fiasco making it 87-85. Plus we bring in Seth when they're shooting the free throws but put Wojcik back out there for the Bacot bucket that were the last points of the game. I'd have a pretty good +/- if I was only on the court when we had the ball too.
My gripe isn't so much with the number of minutes, as much as the fact that he was out there for the last possession. Do or die possession with your season hanging in the balance should have your starting PG on the floor instead of the guy who averaged 8 minutes a game.
My gripe isn't so much with the number of minutes, as much as the fact that he was out there for the last possession. Do or die possession with your season hanging in the balance should have your starting PG on the floor instead of the guy who averaged 8 minutes a game.
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To add to this. If my math is correct... We scored 17 points in the 1st half with Cadeau on the floor.
I would argue Nate that we are better with Seth on the floor defensively. I would as well argue that Seth has been our one consistent bench player all season, we know what he brings and he isn't going to take many bad shots. As YOU correctly point out, it isn't about Paxon other than his being out there and guys like Cadeau and Seth not. Folks act like this is the very first time it has occurred to a coach to back off Cadeau and dare him to shoot, it isn't, in fact it has been going on all season yet only in a loss can SJung/chappell realize it happen?
SDung/chappell says he answered the same question 3 times, no, he avoided answering the same question asked 3 times, the Biden's need to consider him for press secretary with his ability to NOT answer a direct question and claim he did!
Bottom line is this, you said it correctly, last night, after taking a nice working margin in to half time we went away from the rotations that had brought us this far, we tried to fix what was not actually broken?
YES, of course, it should not even be needed said, in crunch time you go to the players that got you there and you don't let the game change on the decision making of a player known to make poor decisions in Withers taking a trey at the worst time imaginable, RJ is the only player on that roster I would have been fine with taking that shot and even last light he was ice cold.
Nathan, you seem to be a cool headed guy, I respect that, I am a bit more hot headed, not proud of that but I am what I am. I call it as I see it, I don't hold my punches, if my favorite player plays poorly then I am going to say just that, my 2 favorites on this team should come as no surprise, they are Seth and Jalen but if they had bad games I am not the guy to hide from that fact. Seth had his best, I think, first half of the season, may have been his best half of his career with us in that first half. For the season, be it minutes or what, Paxon has been no more than 9th in our rotation behind Jwash, Seth, and JWit, his minutes have been mostly cameo appearances and never really in crunch time. Up to last night and not considering him starting the first 2 or 3 games his most minute game was when Seth was out with that concussion. So that +/- argument SJung is trying to use becomes total BS, he has always been infatuated with the +/- stat, clearly he still is with the chappell screen name.
Finally, Cadeau, the generational tag on him is about what he may be, not what he is today. Nathan, you strike me as a guy that like myself, goes way back with is love for UNC, said it many times, my favorite UNC player all time is Phil Ford and I doubt that ever becomes questionable in my eyes. But the talent Cadeau brings is so special that I may have to consider him down the road, if he develops like I think he can/will. It in no means say he is that right now and it shouldn't, the kid is not just a freshman but he is a reclassed freshman. It is going to take him a while to match the talent to all the needed skills. The kid is what, MAYBE 6ft, not like he is a size mismatch, like say , Kendal was. It was not until late summer that we even knew the kid would play for us this season, he now has a full off season with this experience under his belt and fully knowing what he has to work on and I think he comes in next season as the straw that stirs the drink.
(Facepalm)
The rest of the year did not matter. What mattered was Alabama chose to guard Wojcik in THIS GAME, and the result was better spacing and we played better.
Regardless... all of this would be in our rear-view mirror today if RJ just hits a few more shots (just one 3 could've been enough). And I'm not knocking him at all - (I love RJ and hope he comes back) - but unfortunately for us, he just picked a bad day to have a BAD day.
I mentioned this in another thread, but wasn't it pretty telling that both Caleb and RJ went 0-9 from deep last night? I have to believe they were both pressing due to the potential of meeting in the next round.
I mentioned this in another thread, but wasn't it pretty telling that both Caleb and RJ went 0-9 from deep last night? I have to believe they were both pressing due to the potential of meeting in the next round.
Seth's mom too? I heard EC's mom tweeted a few things. From what I saw she wasn't attacking Hubert, but definitely wondering WTH happened.
It's understandable. She's upset we lost while he son was on the bench.
But the numbers and game film do not lie. We played better last night with him on the bench. Credit Alabama's defense for that. They refused to guard him.
I mean, would you rather Hubert have stuck with the lineups that were playing poorly and watch us lose by double digits?
REALLY, so let's test that, did Paxon play at all in the first half? Did we lead at the half? Did we win the freakin game? Now if we had the lead at the half and we did not win the game, kindly explain so we can all understand how it is that we played better in that second half? I am sure we are all on the edge of our seats to hear your explanation...
Id rather the coach that gets paid the big bucks and was handed arguably the best job in the sport figure out adjustments to make while keeping his most talented players on the floor. Putting in a kid that frankly isnt an ACC caliber player the bulk of the 2nd half in the biggest game of the year just because the other team packs the paint isnt a valid reason. If your roster has an advantage and an answer for everything a team throws at you then whats the point of having a coach?
Hubert did make an adjustment. He took out the players that were causing our team to play poorly, and inserted a player that spread the defense and it resulted in our team playing better.
Wojcik was on the floor at the end of the first half when we went on the run that gave us our halftime lead.
Courtesy of Nathan:
"We scored 31 points in the first half with Cadeau and Trimble on the floor. From the 5:55 mark through the final seconds of the first half, UNC didn't have Cadeau or Trimble on the floor.
In those 5:52, UNC scored 23 points.
By my count: 9/14 FG, 5/7 3PT"
When Cadeau and Trimble played early in the second half we completely lost the lead. Wojcik was inserted, the Alabama defense was spread out, and we once again played better.
I'm starting to think you didn't even watch the game, or you aren't able to comprehend what you are watching. Like how did you not know Wojcik was on the floor when we finished the first half on a run?
I'm level-headed with this year's team because my expectations for them practically all season was a 2nd-weekend team with Final Four potential if the bracket broke well for them. Their half of the bracket was too chalky. Unfortunately, they would've been favored against Clemson. But even throughout the season, I didn't see this team as a National Title team unless breaks were involved. I know people will say we were competitive against UConn but that was earlier in the season and quite frankly before we fully knew that Cadeau was a shooting liability at this level.
On Cadeau... I'm aware of what people were expecting out of him here. I think the median level of expectations for him was an All-ACC point guard. And I think ACC Freshman of the Year was the bottom-tier expectation. He's got a long way to go. I honestly think he has the most gaping holes of any 5* PG that UNC has had since Roy took over.
Now count up how much we were outscored with Cadeau and Trimble on the court in the second half.
Nah, @DSouthr. This is SJung (ChiShankCity). I was banned from this board for starting a poll about grading Elliot Cadeau's season. I made this account for observational purposes. I'm not @DaveChapelle in any way shape or form.
Btw, respect to @FlaTarHeel for not getting banned despite making a homophobic insult to @notashelbyfan! Classy! I guess saying Elliot Cadeau isn't amazing gets you banned here, but homophobic insults don't. Who knew?
Unfortunate game last night. Enjoyed the ride this season, everyone! Hope everyone has an enjoyable offseason. Wish you all good health, good luck, and good fortune!
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What is that you say SJung, you are starting to think? Well, that would be a first...
Sorry Jung, sorry to have insulted you like that, I thought you made a lot more sense than that guy!
I was going to say something similar. I'm no BB guru by any means but I did see the game, and what I saw was basketballs not going through the hoop. We had our shots, regardless of who happened to be in the game. And sometimes when we didn't, we took them anyway. I will never criticize RJ for a bad night, because his good ones are why we were even there to begin with. It isn't about RJ, but had RJ been on we'd still be dancing.
What had me ready to obliterate my TV was what has been my gripe all season, and I mentioned it earlier in the season somewhere here. Those missed shots around the rim make me go insane. Those little putbacks. Putting it on the backboard instead of slamming it home (and missing it when we did slam it). Losing poise and tossing it at the hole instead of shooting it. Two of those made and we'd be singing a different song today..
I know they were very physical under there but that's no surprise, that's where things get physical.
Stats and numbers keep getting thrown out when at the end of the day we sat 2 of our better players and put a mid major player in the game because of what a poor defensive team was doing on defense
That cant happen. No justification for it. Im actually on the Hubert train because hes proven he can recruit and operate the portal and he gets players to buy in and play hard which is about 90% of running a top 10 program but its okay to admit he coached scared even though he had the better players. He will learn. Oats is a prick but theres no shame in admitting he was the better and more poised coach last night, and it shouldnt be surprising considering Hubert has only been a coach for 3 years
That cant happen. No justification for it. Im actually on the Hubert train because hes proven he can recruit and operate the portal and he gets players to buy in and play hard which is about 90% of running a top 10 program but its okay to admit he coached scared even though he had the better players. He will learn. Oats is a prick but theres no shame in admitting he was the better and more poised coach last night, and it shouldnt be surprising considering Hubert has only been a coach for 3 years
Think if he coached scared he wouldn't have had the balls to make that adjustment. Seems like the direct opposite. You feel like he took a risk he shouldn't have.
I still don't see it. Cadeau was entirely neutralized. The only way I could see keeping cadeau in was to move RJ to the point and have Cadeau just backdoor cut a ton. But, that's hard also cuz they are just gonna camp in the lane the whole time and congest everything and that will never be open. He can't drive past his defender when they frankly just stay that far down.
People dared him to shoot all year, but nobody straight up just ignored him basically the way Alabama did last night.
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