OOTB Carolina basketball discussion thread
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I guess. But in general, opinions that don't mesh with the Mike/gary/archer2/TPFKAPS/sk10whatever hierarchy are disregarded and shut down; regardless if the opinions are from fellow Heels or fans of other teams.
Of all the bs on radar this notion that roy and unc are "above recruiting the oad player" is perhaps the biggest pile of crap next to the officials/ncaa conspiracy. Anyone that doesnt think unc would welcome any of these potential nba lottery picks is deluded. Now i know roy doesnt recruit players with handlers and that prob filters out a good portion of oad's but he has ABSOLUTELY NO PROB recruiting oad's otherwise and HES DONE IT A DOZEN TIMES. He just doesnt land them. Hell he went after andrew wiggins who was a GUARANTEED OAD. Those idiots seem to think roy could land any of them if he "changed his philosophy" re oad's. Lol. Roy wants them just as bad as cali and kay.
I agree with you that the notion is stupid. However, I heard Roy speak last May and it opened my eyes a bit. He straight-up admitted to a room full of Rams Club members that he much prefers two- to three-year players and his ideal situation would be to sprinkle in one OAD player a year.
Stubborn Roy.
Yea i admit he doesnt want a program full of oad's but he has def missed on a handful that he obviously wanted to "sprinkle in" as u said.
Oh for sure. But the Radar guys can't accept that sometimes UNC just fails to land a recruit. Sometimes that's just the long and short of it. But the Radar dudes deflect and are just like "well we didn't REALLY want him."
I think it's pretty obvious they are right about the one and done players. Take Ingraham for example. He wanted to come to UNC, but Roy spent years convincing him to go to duke instead of offering him a scholarship. He would just never go to the level of Cal and K to get people like Ingraham. 
So what's the deal @heelmanwilm ? Your boy is calling you out.
"And BTW: Roy was being diplomatic, in case that flew over your head (which apparently doesn't take much)."
"And BTW: Roy was being diplomatic, in case that flew over your head (which apparently doesn't take much)."
I've already corrected you on this in the Raider thread but I'll do it here too. Yes, Roy fails to land recruits sometimes. A lot of times. But again, it happens because he has not promoted a culture that suits the OAD recruits. So in essence, he's only missing on these guys because he doesn't really care about missing on these guys. In other words, Roy would love to land them...on his terms. And again, I'm perfectly ok with that seeing that he's the coach of the team and has been entrusted to run the team as he sees fit.
Y'all are so eager to keep some ridiculous battle going with the folks at Raider that it's impacting your cognitive ability. C'mon folks...let it go with those guys over there.
See my post directly above. Sure, Roy wants those players...on his terms. His terms are forget about being OAD and play the way I want you to play. If at the end of the year you could be OAD, then good for you. But it's not likely seeing that even OAD players are only going to get 20 mpg max and the upperclassmen are still going to be the ones that get the lion's share of the plays called for them.
Let me try your style of "debating" on this one:
I'm right on this and you're wrong. Fact.
That just doesn't work for you though. You actually have to be right. You stick with your style and leave my style to me.
Oh you ain't right on this one. All of y'all's aversion to OAD players defies logic. You want Carolina to recruit "high-character guys" who want to be in school 3-4 years instead of jumping to the Association. Out of one side of your mouth, y'all say you want to care about the players, and then out of the other side, you want them to sacrifice 1-3 years of potential NBA (i.e.) paid play.
And y'all want this, knowing full well that these guys' years of potential NBA play are finite. This isn't like getting your law degree and then being able to practice for 45 years. You can only play til you're, at most, 40, and usually it's much earlier than that. A guy can absolutely be a high-character guy and still only play 1-2 years. Look at Marvin Williams, Brandan Wright, Ed Davis, and Harrison Barnes.
Haha. Funny.
I agree with you both. I'm so overall satisfied with Roy and what he has done here that I want him leading us and doing it his way. His way has produced 2 NC's, 3 NC appearances and 4 Final Fours in 13 years. Of course I want him to land the best talent regardless of their stated future intentions because I want an even better chance to win more NC's.
It's not just the one and done player that some of them talk about. Some of them say it's any recruit Roy goes after. Either Roy didn't really want them or the fix was in.
Of all the things to call them out on, this subject is far down the list. This thread exists to limit the battles on radar. Sometimes you need a place to vent and that usually can't be done on radar.
Yeah, apparently Moo paid off DSJ to go there lololol. Right, that makes sense. Sometimes guys just want to go to certain schools. Sheesh. Our football recruiting proves that. We have so many limitations and so many things lacking, compared to blueblood football programs, yet we still manage to consistently reel in 4* recruits. That's amazing to me. Of course, the Radar dudes know nothing about that.
Yea i agree he wants the players on his terms. But he does want them. He has recruited them. and he has failed ftmp. I'm just disagreeing with th notion so often pushed on gary-dar that we dont get them cause of some moral hi ground we take against oad. Its pathetic spin control in response to cali and kay kicking our asses on the recruiting trail lately. There are at least three oad players the last five years that coach wanted and missed on.
I didn't jump in to that battle on Radar because I agree with both sides and didn't want to pull a Dsouth and somehow ride the fence for a full 7 paragraphs.
But I'd like the mixture of 3-4 guys with a OAD every year. You put Ingram on that team last year - we absolutely run away with the championship and might have only lost a game or 2 all year. I like being able to say "we do it the right way - not some factory to the NBA", etc. as much as the next guy - but I like saying "We just won the championship" 100 times more. I don't want to be like UK getting platoons of OAD, because that does take a little bit of the enjoyment out of watching the team grow, and at the same time isn't that effective - as evidence by their 1 title in all the years since Cal got there.
But instead of having 10 different 3-4 year players, I'm fine with only having 8 3-4 year players on the team, and a OAD or two on every years team. That way I can watch the majority of them grow and progress, while still winning damn championships. Hopefully now that the cloud has lifted - the OAD per year can start to materialize.
But I'd like the mixture of 3-4 guys with a OAD every year. You put Ingram on that team last year - we absolutely run away with the championship and might have only lost a game or 2 all year. I like being able to say "we do it the right way - not some factory to the NBA", etc. as much as the next guy - but I like saying "We just won the championship" 100 times more. I don't want to be like UK getting platoons of OAD, because that does take a little bit of the enjoyment out of watching the team grow, and at the same time isn't that effective - as evidence by their 1 title in all the years since Cal got there.
But instead of having 10 different 3-4 year players, I'm fine with only having 8 3-4 year players on the team, and a OAD or two on every years team. That way I can watch the majority of them grow and progress, while still winning damn championships. Hopefully now that the cloud has lifted - the OAD per year can start to materialize.
But how much did he want them? Did he want them enough to change his philosophy and cater the game plans to a wet-behind-the-ears, unproven freshman? Did he want them bad enough to guarantee them 30 mpg? Did he want them bad enough to guarantee them 20 shots per game? Did he want them bad enough to play them in front of a 4 year guy?
Or did he just kind of want them to be a piece of the team like everybody else?
For the record, I said I'd be ok with 2-3 OAD players every 10 years or so. So we kind of agree here.
But where we disagree is the reasons that OAD players have been avoiding us. People are like, "with the NCAA mess behind us, we'll be landing all the top recruits." Why would a OAD kid care about sanctions? And if they did care, why would they care more than a kid seen as a 3-4 year player? That makes no sense to me? Look, OAD kids aren't signing with UNC because Roy discourages the OAD route. Maybe not vocally. But his actions clearly suggest that his program runs better with guys that have been in the system for a couple years. Why would Harry Giles want to come to UNC and spend 2-3 years when he can go to duke and spend 8 months. Kids today don't value commitment like kids of past eras. Kids today are impatient. Kids today are entitled. Kids today have no investment. It's sad that college sports has devolved to this. I don't have to like it or support the program I love jumping on board. I'm pretty happy with the way Roy does things and the results we've seen doing it his way.
I don't say any of that. I say I want thing to be the way they were when I started watching college basketball. I say I like for guys to stick around because it shows commitment, loyalty and a drive to succeed. I say I don't like impatient, entitled kids that need instant gratification. I say I appreciate kids when they think deeper and more long-term than just "how quick can I make 1.4 million over three years" (which by the way really isn't that much after they give their agent their portion and pay off the other debts, but I digress). I like and appreciate guys that understand they only have one college experience and they want to take full advantage of it. I appreciate guys that understand I'll be more ready for the rigors of adult life in the NBA if I work hard and show that I can tackle 4 years of college before going that route.
That's what I say. Oh yeah, I also say that I like watching teams grow and develop over time. That gives me the most satisfaction. I like myself and I like when my own personal needs are met. I'm human.
Bad enough to recruit them for multiple years. He's not going to half ass it on the recruiting trail. He's not that careless with his time.
I'm sure he wanted them to be a part of the team like everyone else. As he has proven in the past he has no problem starting a freshman and if he feels that he should feature a player he will do that. He might not guarantee playing time, but he will feed the ball to who he thinks should get it.
I guess... I'd be open to a OAD every year though. Just not a roster full of them like UK. If we could land a top 5 recruit year in and year out - they'd probably end up being OAD and I'd be perfectly fine with that.
It doesn't make much sense to me either, but that seemed to be what was happening - unless the players were lying about why they didn't choose UNC, but I figure why would they do that? If the reason is because Roy told them to expect a 3 year process, why not just say that, instead of saying you're nervous about the cloud (like Ingram did).
My order of preference:
1. Win a title with all 3-4 year players
2. Win a title with a bunch of 3-4 year players, and one or two OADs
3a. Win a title with all OADs
3b. Not win a title with all 3-4 year players
4. Not win a title with a bunch of 3-4 year players, and one or two OADs
5. Not win a title with all OADs
I can't tell whether I'd prefer to win a title with all OADs - or not win a title with a team like we had last year, so I listed them as 3a and 3b. Being able to cheer on the type of kids like Marcus and Brice was awesome... but winning titles is awesome too - so its a toss up for me there. I think if we won the title this year (or next year) then 3b would trump 3a. But since we haven't had the taste of a title in a little while, winning the title might be preferable regardless of how it comes about.
@gunslingerdick and @Hark_The_Sound_2010
The reason why OADs didn't want to come during the scandal is because they feared a post-season ban. They knew they'd only be in college for one year, and they were scared that Carolina would ultimately receive a one-year ban and that ban would occur during the OADs' one year in college. It's an understandable position; if you're forced to play in college for a year, you definitely don't want to be denied your one chance to participate in the NCAAT.
The reason why OADs didn't want to come during the scandal is because they feared a post-season ban. They knew they'd only be in college for one year, and they were scared that Carolina would ultimately receive a one-year ban and that ban would occur during the OADs' one year in college. It's an understandable position; if you're forced to play in college for a year, you definitely don't want to be denied your one chance to participate in the NCAAT.
No dude, that isn't it. I'm sorry to rain on your anti-millennial campaign (and you know from my political posts on this board that I mostly hate the Millennial generation too). It's because they want to get into the Association as quick as they can so they can get to that second contract at as early an age as possible. NBA players make way more in 2016 than they did when Phil Ford, James Worthy, and even Antawn Jamison were at Carolina. The money is there to be made, but the future is uncertain. These players do not know if they'll wreck their knee in college and never make it to the pros. These select few elite guys need to be allowed to go pro.
You think what you will and I'll think what I will. In my mind, I'm right.
Speaking of the second contract, I alluded to that in an earlier post. I said I appreciate guys that can think more long-term than how to make a quick $1.4 million. Yes, everyone knows the second contract is where you make your money. Wouldn't you want to maximize that second contract? The way you maximize that second contract is by showing well as a player during your first contract but ALSO showing well as a professional. I assure you, unless Okafor does some Tim Tebow type shit, he cost himself considerable money with his shenanigans during his first year in the league. Oh,...what do you know?...Okafor is a OAD player. Coincidence? Meh, maybe. Or is it the illustration of how young kids haven't been taught to deal with adult world shit - you know, things you learn from being in college that second, third or fourth year.
Whatever man. We're not getting anywhere with this discussion so I suggest we both let it be at this point.
Yes, normal college students learn that stuff. I do not think big-time college basketball players learn the same lessons to the same extent, but maybe I'm just being cynical.
I disagree that we should look at college basketball players differently than we do "normal" students but whatever, that's not a point I'm going to argue.
Okafor didn't learn it in his one year. Do you at least acknowledge that he would have had a better chance of learning it had he stayed 3 or 4 years? And it's not so much whether he learned it or not. What's more important is his desire to learn it.
Some stupid NBA GM will give Okafor a max contract at some point I'm sure. Seems like you're either a max contact guy or a bench warmer the way those contracts go.
If he had learned under the tutelage of a different man, he might have learned how to be a normal adult, if he had stayed in college 3-4 years, yes.
That's good for you that you aren't going to argue on this point because there's no way you could defend your stance on that. They aren't normal students. Not even close.
I think you're goading me into a battle because you know I'm not the type that's going to back down from your thinly veiled challenge.
I'm not goading you into anything because I don't believe in that petty message board "subtweet" BS. I'm simply telling you that you can't defend that particular view because it's a falsehood. Carolina basketball players are not "normal" students. They do not face the normal stresses than normal students face.
Normal students face stresses from things like:
- I finally met a girl at a party, how long should I wait til I message her on Facebook?
- I have to find a used version of all my textbooks because the new versions at the student store are $200 a pop
- I'm having trouble making friends now that I'm in a new place in a new state, with no one I know.
- It's about to be class scheduling time and I don't know what the heck to do because all the good classes will be taken by the time it's my turn
- I don't have a fake yet, so I'm having trouble going out on Franklin
Carolina (and all big-time) revenue sports athletes don't face any of those problems. They can get p***y whenever they want, they get textbooks paid for, they are campus celebs so they're never hurting for friends, they get preferred course scheduling times, etc. They do face tons of stress though. Their stresses are more like this though:
- we have Duke next week.....I'm pretty friggin nervous
- We need to win out the rest of the way to claim the ACC regular season
- I'm going up against XYZ in our next game and he's better than me. I need to bring my A-game.
Radar Sucks....This years team is going nowhere.... Radar Sucks...Wait a minute, this years team might be decent.... Radar Sucks...Holy Crap we're gonna win it all!.... Shit, life sucks.... Radar Sucks....How many values are we willing to compromise to win a title?
90 pages condensed to 45 words. Well done, sir.
For the record, as a "normal" student, I didn't have the stresses you mention. "How long do I wait to facebook her?" Is that for real? Trouble making friends? What school are you describing? Is this a school for the developmentally challenged or homeschooled kids or something? Class schedule was the last thing on my mind. I usually just went to my advisor and said, "hook that up for me, will ya?" And no fake ID? I got my first one at 16. I was on my 3rd by freshman year. And lastly, I could get p***y whenever I wanted too. Granted, sometimes you had to alter your standards but...
Can't we just post pics of hot chicks and watch Seventh Woods mixtapes for a few months?
JHC dude, there are other people in the world than you. I stated very real concerns that normal college students can and do have. I'm happy for you that you got laid a lot. Well done.
I'm sorry. Those weren't concerns to me. So your post doesn't resonate with me. But you're assuming that college athletes don't have those concerns? That's absurd.
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