Yeah, it's pretty sad we can't have an analysis of a game without some folks wanting to pit one of our players against another. Our Core Four has morphed into a Core Five as Cam has found his fit and we need em all.
Quick stuff (State game 2)...
- Thread starter gary-7
- Start date
Okay. Since you are so contrite, I won't put you on ignore. Just watch the asinine statements, please.
As for the game, it was once again very much a team effort , with contributions from a lot of different players. Five guys in double digits and a 41-24 advantage on the boards will win a lot of games. And Luke had as good a game as I can remember in a long, long time.
Last edited:
Billy, you know exactly what is being said here. You see the great pass-the fumble of that great pass and the missed bunny. That is a BLOWN ASSIST! I don't always remember who made the pass and sometimes don't remember who missed the shot but I know it happened. I'm sure you are the same.
Let's all talk some UNC basketball
It is amazing honestly, after a great win gary gives us a pretty solid recap of HIS take on the game, he doesn't and can't require you agree with every aspect of it, I enjoy it as many others. But why the need to try to prove gary wrong, how much of this thread is once again speaking to his blown assist line, why, if you don't agree with his blown assist take then don't, no need to derail a thread. Gary knows, I don't totally agree with his blown assist line but he does and I see no need to argue incessantly about it or and I do know those blown assists are discussed in film review. Some seem more concerned about proving gary wrong about something than about this great win we just got, what is the point in that if you really are a Tar Heel fan?
And yeah, there are some here that enjoy derailing any thread they can that do as well post under multiple screen names, they pretend to be different posters when in fact they are not, I guess they can not make an effective enough argument for what ever their views are so they have to pretend to have someone agree with them, kinda really sad actually!
And yeah, there are some here that enjoy derailing any thread they can that do as well post under multiple screen names, they pretend to be different posters when in fact they are not, I guess they can not make an effective enough argument for what ever their views are so they have to pretend to have someone agree with them, kinda really sad actually!
I always look forward to your write ups Gary. Please continue. I love the blown assists- for one it takes me back to Dean who often mentioned it and if I am correct kept a different assist stat that included blown assists or passes that lead to foul shots. It is part of Carolina basketball. It also shows that player is doing his job.
Stats are so misleading. If I hadn't watched the game and then read in the box score that Berry had 0 assists Id wonder what was up with him. The tracking of blown assists eliminates that question.
Also, Berry and Maye help each other be the best duo on the court. It would be interesting to see Maye's input when Berry isn't on the court. Without Berry running the show, no one on offense seems to generate much. In different ways, Maye helps open up the floor for Berry's drives.
Stats are so misleading. If I hadn't watched the game and then read in the box score that Berry had 0 assists Id wonder what was up with him. The tracking of blown assists eliminates that question.
Also, Berry and Maye help each other be the best duo on the court. It would be interesting to see Maye's input when Berry isn't on the court. Without Berry running the show, no one on offense seems to generate much. In different ways, Maye helps open up the floor for Berry's drives.
Back to the game if we can? To me this was a VERY intense atmosphere, kinda more like a post season game than a regular season game not against duke, it may have in fact been as if not more intense than the duke game. To come away from that with a road win was big time and allows things to look differently than they did a week or so ago.
Turning point IMO, first half, think it may have been Johnson that had some words for Joel after a score, Joel clearly didn't like it and the ref stepped in to chill things out and all the sudden Joel went in to beast mode and locked in on both ends. Roy took him out about 3-4mins late but Joel seemed to take it personally and set the tone for the rest of that game. Proves that ole saying, "best let sleeping dawgs lay" or they wil bite your wolfie arm off!
Turning point IMO, first half, think it may have been Johnson that had some words for Joel after a score, Joel clearly didn't like it and the ref stepped in to chill things out and all the sudden Joel went in to beast mode and locked in on both ends. Roy took him out about 3-4mins late but Joel seemed to take it personally and set the tone for the rest of that game. Proves that ole saying, "best let sleeping dawgs lay" or they wil bite your wolfie arm off!
Actually, I like the measure. I mean it's necessarily a bit subjective, but it still points out useful info. I mean, why are what looks like good setups "blown"? Was the receiver off balance, timid, unready, shooting poorly, not looking for his shot...? All those things are coachable.
Alternatively, is the passer making passes only a star could catch, or throwing bullets to the guy with the worst hands, and so on. Those are coachable things, too.
Personally I thought Billy's question was very straightforward.
As for brady's question, sure it was a dig at Berry and at Gary. But I thought it was worth a chuckle, not a fight.
I really like Gary's writeups. Usually I agree. Occasionally not. And he often points out things I hadn't even thought of - which is great.
I really hate it when half the thread becomes a pissing match - especially over comments that are either straightforward (Billy's) or little digs (bradys).
To be fair, most of us think Luke isnt all that athletic. And yet he keeps having double-doubles and holds up against many players who are considered quite athletic.
Maybe we should revise what we are calling athletic.
I thought the officiating was good. The refs let everybody know early on that they weren't calling it overly tight. State was just better at keeping their infractions below the threshold.
That's not to say I didn't bitch about a few calls. And I was shocked that we had so many more fouls than they did before they were playing catch-up.
I learned years ago not to judge reffing just by disparities. Lots of fan bases used to say we benefitted from ref bias when guys like Hansbrough were around and we were scoring double or more from the line than their teams were. It wasn't true then and I'm not going to make that mistake now when we have a team that doesn't get to the line very much.
While I agree with that (mostly), wasn’t it odd that for years when dook teams were similar to this years UNC team (3 point reliant), that dook still got to the FT line way more than their opponents?
Last edited:
Does that really happen here? I've seen that on political boards, but why would anyone want to do that here?
Reminds me of that old ditty:
Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm schizophrenic
And so am I
Never doubt the power of the Dark Lord.
Every year when an undefeated UK doesn't meet an undefeated Duke in the championship game is just baffling to me. If you listen to their fans and to many announcers, that's what should happen every year.
The thickness is strong with this one.
Roy and the staff track them, so that's good enough for me.
And why keep track of fg%? You don't make every shot in basketball, why not just say he made 15, instead of 15-22? Whats the importance of knowing how many he missed? Maybe all stats should be thrown out except the score? Anything else is just useless, right?
Go back to crying over the Super Bowl.
You made my point. State plays Louisville-style physical ball. That's fine but just needs to be called fairly. The idea we would ever have more fouls than them is in itself an indicator of what was, yes, a poorly officiated game. Their back-pushes alone on rebounds shoulda been good for 4 or 5, and you need a subway token to travel the way they did. They got to the line on the slightest (or no) contact and we, well, didn't, despite attacking the rim. In a typical UNC-State game, all things being equal we should be at the line more than them,and certainly not less.We didn't start sniffing the FT disparity til they HAD to foul late.
Absolutely, not sure when have seen a kid come so far as a player that many, me included see as limited athletically. What the kid does have that is extra special talent is his basketball IQ, he just seems to understand how to create situations that he has the ability to exploit. His numbers really are off the charts!
Absolutely, not sure when have seen a kid come so far as a player that many, me included see as limited athletically. What the kid does have that is extra special talent is his basketball IQ, he just seems to understand how to create situations that he has the ability to exploit. His numbers really are off the charts!
Well, Dave, one of the points this brings up is that there are different types of athleticism..Coordination, body-control and spatial awareness are athletic traits as much as explosive leaping ability or quickness, and Luke is also a tremendous aerobic athlete, as the guys will tell ya --- he has stamina for days and dominates the annual distance race.
Hell, Phil Ford wasn't a hi-flyer but nobody ever called him unathletic. His gfts were in speed and uncanny body-control. Different strokes...
I fail to see how anyone can look at Luke and see limited athletic ability. I may be mistaken but he wins all the running conditioning races every year. Yes he might not have the vertical of a Michael Jordan but it is certainly good enough. His footwork is exceptional leading to a creative offensive game. His desire to work to make himself a better player, his basketball IQ and unwillingness to lose has made him a truly exceptional player. We are truly lucky to have him and I can't wait to see how he improves as a player
Gary- I for one appreciate all the hard work you put into the stats. I enjoy your attention to detail and look forward to your basketball commentsWell, Dave, one of the points this brings up is that there are different types of athleticism..Coordination, body-control and spatial awareness are athletic traits as much as explosive leaping ability or quickness, and Luke is also a tremendous aerobic athlete, as the guys will tell ya --- he has stamina for days and dominates the annual distance race.
Hell, Phil Ford wasn't a hi-flyer but nobody ever called him unathletic. His gfts were in speed and uncanny body-control. Different strokes...
Not taking anything away from Luke, he is a fine athlete but what I see is not the typical pure athlete we see in the front court of a power program blue blood, especially producing at this level. He isn't overly long or explode off the floor able to play over the top of defenders.
Gonna disagree slightly with gary, I would define what we see in Luke more in terms of a different type of talent, like Tyler taking hustle and work ethic to the extreme, Luke IMO does the same with basketball IQ and understanding of how to position himself to be able to produce within his own skill set. I see that more of a special talent than I do defined by athleticism, just in my view.
Gonna disagree slightly with gary, I would define what we see in Luke more in terms of a different type of talent, like Tyler taking hustle and work ethic to the extreme, Luke IMO does the same with basketball IQ and understanding of how to position himself to be able to produce within his own skill set. I see that more of a special talent than I do defined by athleticism, just in my view.
Last edited:
Well, that's where the 19-0 run happened, so...
Good news is we scored the last 7.
Hell, Phil Ford wasn't a hi-flyer but nobody ever called him unathletic. His gfts were in speed and uncanny body-control. Different strokes...
Phil's teammates would rib him because he couldn't dunk.
Yeah, although it was more he didn't than couldn't... He was afraid he'd miss.Phil's teammates would rib him because he couldn't dunk.
Heck, Pistol Pete almost never dunked at 6'5 for the same reason -- said he'd be too embarrassed if he missed. I actually met his old Hawks teammate Herb White and he said they used to give Pete sh** because he'd pull out some sick magician dunks in practice but never in games.
I'm serious. I don't get why people would go to all that trouble (other than when banned, but then they can't use their old handle). I mean, what do they get out of it?
You are NOT that dense!
...and this was a story of self-inflicted survival, or maybe I should say survival of the self-inflicted.
- On one hand you hafta credit State with making some tough shots. Of their 3-pt makes only 2 were on over-helps. Sometime they just make shots. That being said, we did a better job of taking away their outside opportunities in the second half all together. After a hot start they finished 7/13, the most important number there being holding down the number of makes.
- Good grief, this game was stressful to watch in that I can't remember a worse case of self-inflicted badness being careless with the rock
- Speaking of which, CATCH THE DAMN BALL! I know our frosh Bigs are still young, but it's friggin February --- just sticking out a hand to catch an interior pass ain't gonna get it done. After 2 total TOs vs dook we had 11 in the first half alone, and again they were mostly self-inflicted. Much of the first half was a story of us turning them over, and then turning ourselves over.
- Now the good news: We were doing an awful lot right on offense --- in fact the TOs and 15 Blown Assists in the first half alone is what held us to a paltry 35 points. We at least cleaned up the Assist-blowing in the second half and stronger finishing helped us to hang 61 on them.
- Speaking of offense, the transition game was in high gear (which is remarkable given we left the ball behind more than once). I had us for 20 Fast Break and 29 Secondary Break pts. That's Carolina basketball. I also liked how we attacked their pressure. That discourages a lotta nonsense.
- We also by and large did a good job defending high ball-screens. The hedges were more under control, we were tagging the roller while mostly not losing reach of our men. Credit to State for making an adjustment once we took away their perimeter action by attacking more off the dribble. It took us a while to adjust back, and even once we did they still made some tough shots.
- Good to see some bench contribution, and all five starters in double-figures is a good thing. Good job by Cam of making himself an offensive factor despite being cold from deep. State was making a concerted effort to shut off Cam and Kenny's looks, so hey, find a way to adjust. BTW: Good on KW to show ice-water confidence with those big late 3s, and to Roy for calling a set play for him in crunch time.
- Good to see Theo redeem himself for early malfunctions by getting back to his game and making some sweet finishing moves in the paint down the stretch.
- apparently State took exception to JB's off-hand remark that he didn't consider them a "rival". Johnson in particular got mouthy early to the point Les Jones stepped in. Of course that just got JB into the glare and he made Markell's life miserable, and on the other end made a point of taking him to the rack in one-man Fast Breaks.
- And speaking of taking exception --- LUKE either got pissed off at his own early ball-looseness or some of the uncalled "physical" junk, but whatever #32 went OFF, scoring in all manners and distances. I'll tell ya, once Luke started moving without the ball it really was a Larry Bird show out there and Yurtseven didn't know whether to sh** or go blind. 33 and 17. Dayumm! Oh, and I love seeing him throw it down.
- Finally, I never thought I'd see a game where Les Jones was the best zebra. Those other two guys were just useless. State having only 3 Team Fouls inside the Under-4 was a joke. That being said the good news was it forced them to use clock giving fouls to get us into the bonus late. BTW: Good job by Cam and Theo of converting big late FTs.
Anyway, whatever the circumstance, that was a damned good win coming 2 days after dook and under the most hostlile of environments. For all our self-inflicted nonsense that showed a lotta grit and character, which of course is exactly what the doctor (and Roy) orders this time o' year!...
I never really blame officials, but IIRC, we'd only taken 4 FTAs before State started fouling on purpose. That's crazy for the high-pressure, physical style of D that they play. Their bigs on the interior were just pushing and shoving...no fundamental boxouts.
That's a great overlooked point, Coach. Maybe if they actually fundamentally boxed out they wouldn't have gotten outrebounded. I don't know about you but watching teams who are obviously taught that push/shove/undercut style really sours me. Hell, maybe I'm old school but I believed in box-out drills.
It's rarely taught anymore. Kids just try to "out-athlete" people. Makes me sick.
Well hey, look at how much better the basketball discussion has gotten --- and how many more folks are participating --- since the latest troll was disposed of. But I agree, I can't relate to getting sick pleasure out of building a web persona outta being a penis.
Ditto. I suppose part of it may stem from the AAU/travel culture. Nobody wants to learn the grunt work.
Here's all ya need to know about that:
https://northcarolina.forums.rivals.com/threads/quick-stuff-state-game-2.60394/page-2#post-1000020
When u get slapped on the hand and u hit the ground u get those calls. When u shoot a jumper and kick your leg out and the defender hits it, u get that call. I mean, explain to me how that happens
Thanks - I agree with you. I was just wondering what the whole argument was about. That Brady dip$hit isn't necessarily wrong - Berry is only credited with zero assists though. I thought I saw at least 1 assists in that game but he's credited with none which is officially what is kept track of.
If you think the wrong stats are bad for NCSU or Duke, watch an NBA game and see the ridiculous of what counts as an assist. Dudes take 5 dribbles after catching it at the top of the arc and its counted as an assist.
