Quick stuff (UNI game)...

[gary-7]

...and I came THIS close.

This game was a microcosm of everything we've talked about this week --- both the good and, oh Dear Lord, the bad --- so this will be relatively short. I'll start with the good, in the interest of blood pressure:

- we showed some 44, 24, 23 and 32 (once, forcing a TO) --- more please.
- one thing I hope we can continue to hang our hats on --- and it sure as hell kept us in the game in the first half --- is getting to the line and making FTs... 27/31 (in a game that allowed a lot of contact) will absolutely hunt.

- speaking of that, we got FTs by attacking the rim --- a bit too much off the dribble in the first half, TBH... more off pounding the rock inside in the second.

- I love Ingram's aggressiveness and all-around game. That said, I do NOT love him leading the break when Guards are even with or ahead of him. We got one good outcome from that vs a couple not so good. He's a good passer for his size, but as for handle on the fly and decision-making in traffic, well let's just say, it ain't Theo Pinson.

- the roster allowed us to go both "big" (like the versatility with Withers) and "small" (Woj played the 4 at one point), and that is a luxury... well, THAT IS, if it's in the flow of the game
BUT......

- Once and for all: STARTING LINEUPS MATTER. What in the actual hell was the point of today's?... (and yeah, I came this close to wadding up my note sheet and saying "adios" to these writeups). I mean, do we want to get off to even slower starts? Seth is doing some nice things lately, but he is just NOT a fit as a starter on this roster. The dadgummed solution continues to be obvious........

Speaking of which, BTW:
Transition points: with EC = 27, without EC = 10
EC/RJ backcourt: 38 pts in 14:50 = 2.8 PPM (112 PPG rate)
1st half: UNC team scores 35 (UNI scores 41) ---- EC plays 8 minutes and change,
2nd half: UNC team scores 56 (UNI scores 28) --- EC plays just under 15 minutes.

Finally, I always say that you can't judge a performance depending on whether 3s happen to go down --- it's HOW you're playing overall. And to that, a most interesting stat was that we took the exact same # of 3s in both halves --- 13. The difference was we made 3X as many in the second half. But here's the thing, in the second the looks were better and more in rhythm because we moved the ball better and played more inside-out AND we played largely with BETTER CAROLINA TEMPO.

Anyway, look, with our schedule we're likely gonna lose some games along the way no matter whom we start, but I'd rather minimize that number, and certainly not tempt fate. UNI is a sound, well-coached team and if you give em a chance to beat you? Welp... that's exactly what we did in the first half. Second half we played harder and smarter and more together, and yes, had more time with a PG on the floor. Grinder starts tomorrow --- are we gonna start playing Carolina basketball a bit sooner? Guess we shall see...

 

[FlaTarHeel]

- we showed some 44, 24, 23 and 32 (once, forcing a TO) --- more please.


- I love Ingram's aggressiveness and all-around game. That said, I do NOT love him leading the break when Guards are even with or ahead of him. We got one good outcome from that vs a couple not so good.


Grinder starts tomorrow --- are we gonna start playing Carolina basketball a bit sooner? Guess we shall see...

1. Yes please, we have the depth to do it.
2. The sooner the better. He needs to be filling the lane and sitting on the top of someone's head. His ball handling is decent but not great by any means.
3. Nova plays an NBA physical defense, they will test our "manhood" for sure.

 

[al would]

This game was a microcosm of everything we've talked about this week

Thanks for the thoughts G-7. I was at work for the second half and will have to go back and look at the DVR for the good stuff but even after just the first half a couple things were glaring. Everything flows better with Cadeau (thank you captain obvious), I laughed at the comment about Ingram because I did see him try to lead a break and thought WTF .. now there goes another player that thinks they're a pg and ain't (hint RJ). Caught a bit of J Wash on the floor and that guy needs more PT. Rim protector .. nice FT stroke .. plays within himself and needs to bulk up a tad but UNC will be lucky to get 2 more years from him #bigpropotential. Seems that the weakest link on the team still seems to be someone not in a uniform. jmo

 

[ChiShankCity]

@gary-7 I'll have to push back on the Cadeau on-off stuff. In the second half, Cadeau joined the party after the 5 starters already did the dirty work. We scored more with Cadeau on the floor, but the game was completely different when he entered the game in the second half.

Halftime: UNI led 41-35
Cadeau subs in at 15:14 and UNC led 51-42
+15 in 4:46 with Cadeau on the bench

Cadeau subbed out at 6:19 and UNC led 77-58
+10 in 8:55 with Cadeau on the floor

For kicks and giggles, here were the on off numbers for Cadeau in the 1st half.

Cadeau subs in at 14:59. UNI led 10-2 (UNC is -8 without Cadeau)
Cadeau subs out at 9:19. UNI led 21-17 (Cadeau +4 in 5:40)
Cadeau subs in at 3:36. Game tied at 20 (UNC is +4 without Cadeau)
Cadeau plays remaining 3:36. UNI leads 41-35 at half (Cadeau -6 in 3:36)

Overall first half: UNC is -6
- UNC is -4 without Cadeau
- UNC is -2 withCadeau

I'm in favor of Cadeau starting. I think he should've started game 1. Maybe today's first half goes differently with him in the starting lineup. But the second half first 4:46 set the tone and that was without Cadeau. UNI had to change their style and tempo after Ryan banged in a few 3's. They had to stretch their defense 1 or 2 steps after we started making some shots.

To me, this showed the importance of making shots over anything else. We'll be pretty good if we make shots and force defenses to guard out to 25 feet. We may look as average as anyone if we can't make shots and if teams have a plan on how to double Bacot.

One play that leaves a sour taste for me. It was late in the first half and RJ made the awful pass to midcourt. And Cadeau home-run trotted to the ball and the UNI player sprinted and got a layup. To me, that was BS chicken-sh*t effort. It's probably too late to send a message in the 1st half. But that crap shouldn't fly. Sprint back. The pass was terrible, but bad turnovers are going to happen. Sprinting back on defense should be a given. Especially if you're a PG. Just me personally, but I have long memories of plays like that. That one was really disappointing to me.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

With the game under control and a tougher opponent tomorrow, why did we need to keep playing guys like Ingram, Ryan and RJ?

I didn't like seeing Armando in foul trouble but at least he didn't play too many minutes.

 

[al would]

why did we need to keep playing guys like Ingram, Ryan and RJ?

coaching thing .. SOS different season

 

[NorCalTarheel]

Work got in the way of watching today's game so I have to watch it later but one thing that was worrying me coming into Atlantis is our mediocre rebounding. Anyone else thinking this is going to catch up with us against better opponents?

 

[alabamaheel]

@gary-7 I'll have to push back on the Cadeau on-off stuff. In the second half, Cadeau joined the party after the 5 starters already did the dirty work. We scored more with Cadeau on the floor, but the game was completely different when he entered the game in the second half.

Halftime: UNI led 41-35
Cadeau subs in at 15:14 and UNC led 51-42
+15 in 4:46 with Cadeau on the bench

Cadeau subbed out at 6:19 and UNC led 77-58
+10 in 8:55 with Cadeau on the floor

For kicks and giggles, here were the on off numbers for Cadeau in the 1st half.

Cadeau subs in at 14:59. UNI led 10-2 (UNC is -8 without Cadeau)
Cadeau subs out at 9:19. UNI led 21-17 (Cadeau +4 in 5:40)
Cadeau subs in at 3:36. Game tied at 20 (UNC is +4 without Cadeau)
Cadeau plays remaining 3:36. UNI leads 41-35 at half (Cadeau -6 in 3:36)

Overall first half: UNC is -6
- UNC is -4 without Cadeau
- UNC is -2 withCadeau

I'm in favor of Cadeau starting. I think he should've started game 1. Maybe today's first half goes differently with him in the starting lineup. But the second half first 4:46 set the tone and that was without Cadeau. UNI had to change their style and tempo after Ryan banged in a few 3's. They had to stretch their defense 1 or 2 steps after we started making some shots.

To me, this showed the importance of making shots over anything else. We'll be pretty good if we make shots and force defenses to guard out to 25 feet. We may look as average as anyone if we can't make shots and if teams have a plan on how to double Bacot.

One play that leaves a sour taste for me. It was late in the first half and RJ made the awful pass to midcourt. And Cadeau home-run trotted to the ball and the UNI player sprinted and got a layup. To me, that was BS chicken-sh*t effort. It's probably too late to send a message in the 1st half. But that crap shouldn't fly. Sprint back. The pass was terrible, but bad turnovers are going to happen. Sprinting back on defense should be a given. Especially if you're a PG. Just me personally, but I have long memories of plays like that. That one was really disappointing to me.

Yes and when Ryan bangs in his first three bombs(same exact wide open shots from first half) then they had to start coming out. Which like Gary said, opened up lanes to the middle and the middle period. Hit some shots, not all, and it keeps em honest.

 

[Rabidfrog]

RJ is going to cost us games with hero ball stuff from last year imported into this year… at his best he helps us enough shooting to offset some things, but he is soooooo slooooww with the ball.
He needs to get with the quick and fast program or get cut minutes.

 

[NorCalTarheel]

RJ is going to cost us games with hero ball stuff from last year imported into this year… at his best he helps us enough shooting to offset some things, but he is soooooo slooooww with the ball.
He needs to get with the quick and fast program or get cut minutes.

What he needs to be is a two guard and have EC running the show and setting him up for uncontested jumpers. The ball definitely seems to frequently stick in his hands.

Just my opinion.

 

[gary-7]

@gary-7 I'll have to push back on the Cadeau on-off stuff. In the second half, Cadeau joined the party after the 5 starters already did the dirty work. We scored more with Cadeau on the floor, but the game was completely different when he entered the game in the second half.

Halftime: UNI led 41-35
Cadeau subs in at 15:14 and UNC led 51-42
+15 in 4:46 with Cadeau on the bench

Cadeau subbed out at 6:19 and UNC led 77-58
+10 in 8:55 with Cadeau on the floor

For kicks and giggles, here were the on off numbers for Cadeau in the 1st half.

Cadeau subs in at 14:59. UNI led 10-2 (UNC is -8 without Cadeau)
Cadeau subs out at 9:19. UNI led 21-17 (Cadeau +4 in 5:40)
Cadeau subs in at 3:36. Game tied at 20 (UNC is +4 without Cadeau)
Cadeau plays remaining 3:36. UNI leads 41-35 at half (Cadeau -6 in 3:36)

Overall first half: UNC is -6
- UNC is -4 without Cadeau
- UNC is -2 withCadeau

I'm in favor of Cadeau starting. I think he should've started game 1. Maybe today's first half goes differently with him in the starting lineup. But the second half first 4:46 set the tone and that was without Cadeau. UNI had to change their style and tempo after Ryan banged in a few 3's. They had to stretch their defense 1 or 2 steps after we started making some shots.

To me, this showed the importance of making shots over anything else. We'll be pretty good if we make shots and force defenses to guard out to 25 feet. We may look as average as anyone if we can't make shots and if teams have a plan on how to double Bacot.

One play that leaves a sour taste for me. It was late in the first half and RJ made the awful pass to midcourt. And Cadeau home-run trotted to the ball and the UNI player sprinted and got a layup. To me, that was BS chicken-sh*t effort. It's probably too late to send a message in the 1st half. But that crap shouldn't fly. Sprint back. The pass was terrible, but bad turnovers are going to happen. Sprinting back on defense should be a given. Especially if you're a PG. Just me personally, but I have long memories of plays like that. That one was really disappointing to me.

Not sure what any of that is supposed to mean, but it mitigates nothing ---and I mean nothing --- about the numbers I posted.

And if it all comes down to "making shots" then WTF does any coaching decision even matter? I guess just roll the ball out and throw up random shots like, oh I dunno.... last season, and hope for the best?

Me? I prefer Carolina basketball, and that starts with playing our one legit Carolina PG --- because the contrast with when we don't is quite real and frankly, glaring.

 

[39 Feet Above Sea Level]

Thank you again, Gary. The words Carolina Tempo said it all. Even when shots aren’t dropping,
playing on both sides of the floor with that tempo will keep you in most games, win or lose.
Villanova is very good, they blasted Maryland, and beat T Tech easily. We’ll need to be on top of our game early.
Without question, Elliot needs to start.

 

[LakeHickoryHeel]

One thing seems to be consistent (and I hope stays that way) so far: defensive effort and intensity seems better this year and more on par with what we are used to seeing with Carolina Basketball. This should translate into deflections, turnovers, fast breaks, and easy buckets. It seems to be a big focus for the coaching staff this year. I hope this trend continues, and if it does, we will see more and more of EC, as he will shine in transition.

 

[tmatheny]

I loved inserting Withers into the starting lineup for 2nd half. I felt like he was a difference maker with his energy and movement.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I loved inserting Withers into the starting lineup for 2nd half. I felt like he was a difference maker with his energy and movement.

He seems a little uncertain about where he's supposed to be and what he's supposed to do at this stage, but he definitely has the quickness and motor we need. When he's more fully locked in, he should probably get starter minutes.

Needless to say, it's hard to be sure about some of our new guys until they face better opposition. Which starts today! I'm pretty excited to see how they do.

 

[heels05champs]

Two observations I had was that Withers needs to play starter type minutes and be the first guy off the bench each game and the ball continues to stick to RJ which negatively effects the offense. Some of the bad memories from last season are brought back when he’s got the ball in his hands.

 

[CanuckChuck]

Not sure what any of that is supposed to mean, but it mitigates nothing ---and I mean nothing --- about the numbers I posted.

And if it all comes down to "making shots" then WTF does any coaching decision even matter? I guess just roll the ball out and throw up random shots like, oh I dunno.... last season, and hope for the best?

Me? I prefer Carolina basketball, and that starts with playing our one legit Carolina PG --- because the contrast with when we don't is quite real and frankly, glaring.

Gary Please. You know exactly what +/- is. If EC was +15 you know damn well you would have included it in your post. But you're right. It doesn't mitigate your 1st half/2nd half numbers it completely destroys them. Might as well replace EC with High and it has the same meaning.

Now these are just numbers and anyone with two eyes can see that EC has the potential to be a great PG. But this is why some people on here have an issue with you. Bad +/-, no problem I'll just make up some other numbers that mean nothing. BTW - how was EC on D this game? I didn't see you mention anything about that in this write up. Then when someone points out a discrepancy and now they "don't like Carolina basketball"? You need to chill a bit.

I enjoy your write-ups. You definitely know more about the x's and o's of b-ball then I do. I've been around long enough to know how you are and I try to stay out of some of the spats you get into. This wasn't even a harsh reply and you act like he insulted your mother. I know EC is your guy just like JB was, and that's cool, but you just need to take it down a notch.

 

[DSouthr]

Two observations I had was that Withers needs to play starter type minutes and be the first guy off the bench each game and the ball continues to stick to RJ which negatively effects the offense. Some of the bad memories from last season are brought back when he’s got the ball in his hands.

In the tread earlier this week "discussing" Cadeau starting, I made a few points that got a lot of push back, it surprised me actually. First I and still do identified the largest issue we have had so far has been good shooters missing jump shots. While I have consistently shared that I want Cadeau to start I as well said that it really doesn't matter who passes the ball to an open shooter, that open shooter simply has to make the shot. WE saw that yesterday in a tale of 2 halves, did we not? First half, good shots missed by our green light shooters and we go to the half down 6. Second half those same shooters make them and we run away with this game, it was a matter of hitting open shots more than who passed it to them.

Next, have said consistently, well before pre-season, I wanted Withers in the starting line up and Ingram at the 3, said that if you wanted to make a starting line up change that would be really impactful, get Withers in there, Withers started the second half yesterday. Why do I as well want Cadeau to start, because I want him distributing, he is a much better creator for his mates than RJ, who I simply do not like as a PG. RG had 3 TOs in that first half vs I think it was 1 assist?

Seth started yesterday and why? Clearly Hubert wanted to establish more of a defensive tone early, we may not have payed well offensively in that first half but we defended, especially early game. Nova has some big guards for us today, may see Seth more today than yesterday if RJ and Cadeau struggle to contain them. And I said IMO our X factor is Ingram and he lead us in scoring yesterday in addition to his consistent all around play on both ends, his 10 rebounds made him not only our leading rebounder yesterday but got our only double double.

I now want to make 1 addition point, while I respect and love RJ and Bacot as players this team will be better when it eases the focus on these 2 guys and that takes these 2 being willing to to step back from having to be the center of focus and focus more on 5 guys on the court together, we need team play more than we need a superman, RJ has to make the extra pass just as Ingram will for example. Ball goes in to Bacot is doubled and all he has is a force it over someone and hope for good things, needs to identify the double and pass it out quicker, a thing he has always struggled with. Either re-position or block out if the shooter takes the shot. As I shared so many times it is about good shooters taking good clean shots that are comfortable for them and what is comfortable is different for each player we have. The ball has simply got to move until someone has a good shot for them and it has to move early in the shot clock, Cadeau will get that ball moving early shot clock and with RJ the ball tends to stick to him, that is why I have consistently shared that I want Cadeau to start.

 

[DSouthr]

Not sure what any of that is supposed to mean, but it mitigates nothing ---and I mean nothing --- about the numbers I posted.

And if it all comes down to "making shots" then WTF does any coaching decision even matter? I guess just roll the ball out and throw up random shots like, oh I dunno.... last season, and hope for the best?

Me? I prefer Carolina basketball, and that starts with playing our one legit Carolina PG --- because the contrast with when we don't is quite real and frankly, glaring.

Maybe I am missing your point but that is one of the most odd things I have ever read on this site? There can not be a single person, including yourself that does not realize EVERY GAME EVER played came down to making shots... UNC can play all the Carolina Ball they want but if in the end it does not end in a made shot then we lose BIG every game. Ever since they used peach baskets the goal of the game was to put the ball in the peach basket no matter how you do it...

WoW, I am literally stunned reading that...

 

[TarHeelFanWV]

I look (and hope) for Cadeau to start today since Trimble wasn't the answer yesterday

 

[DSouthr]

I look (and hope) for Cadeau to start today since Trimble wasn't the answer yesterday

Hubert elected to set more of a defensive tone from the tip off and we defended really well, Seth was successful setting that tone? Seth didn't take a shot and what we struggled with that first half was missing good shots. I would prefer Cadeau to start as well but I have to push back if you are suggesting Seth was not effective while he was in?

 

[ChiShankCity]

Not sure what any of that is supposed to mean, but it mitigates nothing ---and I mean nothing --- about the numbers I posted.

And if it all comes down to "making shots" then WTF does any coaching decision even matter? I guess just roll the ball out and throw up random shots like, oh I dunno.... last season, and hope for the best?

Me? I prefer Carolina basketball, and that starts with playing our one legit Carolina PG --- because the contrast with when we don't is quite real and frankly, glaring.

Damnit, I forgot about Carolina Basketball!

And none of my post was about Cadeau should or shouldn’t start. It was that the credit to the second half run shouldn’t be placed on Cadeau. The starting 5 turned a 6 point halftime deficit into a 9 point lead in less than 5 minutes with Cadeau on the bench. Credit to Cadeau for helping close out the game during his stretch. But the 5 second half starters turned the game.

I don’t even know how to respond to the making shots point, lol. I personally thought we got relatively good looks in the first half. We just missed all of the open ones. We got similar looks to start the second half without Cadeau and our guys made those open shots. The make/miss part of basketball plays an important part in any game.

And btw, this should be a positive. For the 5 to make that run without Cadeau is really important. We don’t want to be a team that’s solely dependent on any player being on the floor. If we can hold our water without Cadeau, that’s a good sign. Obviously he should start, don’t get that part twisted.

Oh and….

CAROLINA BASKETBALL
CAROLINA BASKETBALL
CAROLINA BASKETBALL

Need to cover my ass around these parts.

 

[TarHeelFanWV]

Hubert elected to set more of a defensive tone from the tip off and we defended really well, Seth was successful setting that tone? Seth didn't take a shot and what we struggled with that first half was missing good shots. I would prefer Cadeau to start as well but I have to push back if you are suggesting Seth was not effective while he was in?

Regardless of what Seth did, Cadeau is the better option. Just my opinion.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I look (and hope) for Cadeau to start today since Trimble wasn't the answer yesterday

I didn't want EC's first start to be against a "hard" opponent but since Hubert didn't start him earlier, I wouldn't mind seeing him start today.

Nova seems to run a tall backcourt. On the one hand that could give RJ and EC trouble getting their own shots off. On the other, it might emphasize getting the ball to our bigs, where we have the height advantage (depending on who's in) - and from that perspective, EC's passing could give Nova fits.

So, yeah, let's start him. And maybe emphasize our height advantage up front with this lineup...

EC
Cormac
Harrison
Withers
Armando

 

[tarwhiz]

Gary Please. You know exactly what +/- is. If EC was +15 you know damn well you would have included it in your post. But you're right. It doesn't mitigate your 1st half/2nd half numbers it completely destroys them. Might as well replace EC with High and it has the same meaning.

Now these are just numbers and anyone with two eyes can see that EC has the potential to be a great PG. But this is why some people on here have an issue with you. Bad +/-, no problem I'll just make up some other numbers that mean nothing. BTW - how was EC on D this game? I didn't see you mention anything about that in this write up. Then when someone points out a discrepancy and now they "don't like Carolina basketball"? You need to chill a bit.

I enjoy your write-ups. You definitely know more about the x's and o's of b-ball then I do. I've been around long enough to know how you are and I try to stay out of some of the spats you get into. This wasn't even a harsh reply and you act like he insulted your mother. I know EC is your guy just like JB was, and that's cool, but you just need to take it down a notch.

I agree with this post.
I really enjoy Gary Late stuff and look forward to reading them, but fact is that the reply was dead on and there was little dispute in my opinion.
That doesn't mitigate anything Gary has been saying about the " Big picture" but in this game ChiShank had valid pushback on the narrative.
I hope Gary continues with what he does, but the feedback on that post was over the top for no reason.

 

[tarwhiz]

I didn't want EC's first start to be against a "hard" opponent but since Hubert didn't start him earlier, I wouldn't mind seeing him start today.

Nova seems to run a tall backcourt. On the one hand that could give RJ and EC trouble getting their own shots off. On the other, it might emphasize getting the ball to our bigs, where we have the height advantage (depending on who's in) - and from that perspective, EC's passing could give Nova fits.

So, yeah, let's start him. And maybe emphasize our height advantage up front with this lineup...

EC
Cormac
Harrison
Withers
Armando

WWJD Appreciate you brother, but you can't drop a starting 5 without R.J. Davis in it, and expect any positive reaction from it.
R.J. is STILL extremely important to this teams success and was the best player on tge team all last year.
Did he have a bad game yesterday? He'll yeah, he was horrible in the 1st half, but he is still a bucket in the clutch, and this team needs him.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

WWJD Appreciate you brother, but you can't drop a starting 5 without R.J. Davis in it, and expect any positive reaction from it.
R.J. is STILL extremely important to this teams success and was the best player on tge team all last year.
Did he have a bad game yesterday? He'll yeah, he was horrible in the 1st half, but he is still a bucket in the clutch, and this team needs him.

RJ is my favorite player on the team. I was the first one here to recommend we recruit him - others mainly reacted by saying he was a Pitt lock or not good enough. And I'm still high on him. He's come through for us time and again, and never quits. He's on my All-Grit team.

That said, it remains to be seen what his role will be on this team. I agree with most here who say EC is the natural PG we need. But where does that leave RJ. At SG he's small and struggles to defend. Works hard at it, but struggles. He can shoot over bigger defenders because he had a good step-back and and even better step-sideways.

The preseason argument was that RJ would be even better at SG with EC delivering the ball to him when he's ready for it. Might be true, but we haven't seen much of that yet.