Quick stuff (UVA game)...
- Thread starter gary-7
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Please tell me how you can tell if a team is playing inside out based off of the amount of free throws. The number of free throws don't show how many front ends of a one and one were missed. They don't show how many fouls were non shooting fouls. They don't show how many intentional fouls were called.
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You certainly have a thin skin for a guy that knows so much. I guess the initial reply hit a little to close to home.
Most fouls that are called are called on the ball rather than off of it. Most of those fouls are called either by a driver being fouled or by a big man posting or on a rebound. You don't see nearly as many foul calls on jump shooters. So a team looking inside gets the ball inside as opposed to a team not and taking a lot of jump shots that do not get a lot of whistles.
Even if you miss a front end you had to be there in order to miss it. You can see that from the number of foul shots taken in the box score but you can see it as well in the number of fouls called column. You will most often see big men are called for more fouls in most box scores. Big men most often are found in side the paint.
Couple of things. First, Mike just said number of shots. He didn't say anything about number of fouls. Second, while some of what you say is true you can't tell what type of foul (shooting vs non shooting fouls) was called. In theory Joel could drive to the hole 12 times, get the foul call and never shoot a free throw. That's not going to show up in the number of free throws. A team could shoot 10 more free throws than another team, but 10 of those could have come in the last minute because of intentional fouls. Context is important. You can't judge how well a game was called just by looking at the free throw attempts.
But Joel driving the lane and getting fouled can be seen in the foul totals for individual players column of the box score that does not show number of shot attempts. Also, on numbers of free throws taken, it does give an indication because even if it is a non-shooting foul once they get over the limit they still get to the line.
\However, most of the driving fouls and big man fouls are going to be shooting fouls, big do get a lot of over the back calls on rebounds that are non-shooting. Point Mike is making is valid in that in the end you look at number of foul shots taken vast majority of the time the team with the most foul shots taken was the team fouled the most and because they were they got more ops.
Yeah, you have intentional fouls at the end of games that bloats it some, I look more at the number of foul shots taken column to see the free throw %, I look more at the fouls on individual players called for indication of where the ball was going in relation to the foul calls. Typically, if you see big men with 4-5 fouls it was usually either from a driver or big man fouling a big man posting up or at least inside because refs are shy to call off ball big men inside the paint fouls and do not call nearly the number of over the back on rebounds fouls that happen. They call more on ball reaching and grabbing, body bumps on drivers, and now days they let a guard initiate contact with a big man and call it on the big man.
Now one thing that would help us get more calls would be if our drivers looked to attack the defenders more than look to avoid contact and SELL the contact. Joel drives a lot looking to avoid contact and he really is not the best actor I have seen, I swear they require duke players to act so much they need to all get their SAG cards!
You don't even need to delve that far in explaining it lol. Looking at FT attempt disparity is the dumbest way to evaluate whether refereeing was good or bad. It's hilarious to me how many people -- on many boards, not just this one -- try to use this metric to support their claim that the refs were bad.
Again. We are talking about attempts. For the purposes of this conversation the foul total column doesn't exist.
Sure, but what if every foul before that is a non shooting foul? You would never know and it wouldn't exist just by looking at the free throw attempts.
So, you are agreeing with me then. You just listed multiple things you look at not just one thing. Lets say, just for the sake of argument, that you can tell what type of foul was called, where it was called on the floor, how many were called and the context they were called just by looking at the number of free throws attempted. How are you going to look at that number and tell me that the call was or wasn't legit? How are you going to look at that number and tell me that Joel Berry got fouled at the 12 minute mark while he was going to the basket, but it wasn't called? How are you going to tell me that the foul they called on Joel at the 10 minute mark wasn't a good call? You've got to watch the game to be able to determine if the game was called fairly.
If number of foul shots taken and made weren't important stats then why do we as a team collect them? Both DES and Roy use them as a metric to describe how we played the game and as one factor to determine if we were aggressive enough. The standard to those two HOFs is our team should make more than the other team attempts so they feel it indicates something important about the Tar Heels. It also is an important indicator of style of play and can certainly imply ref incompetence when the fouls don't match the relative styles of play of the teams in question.
To blame a loss on the refs is a punk move, but to discuss them is what happens in every fan base and by every coach after every game so.....
Did anyone ever say one should look at a box score to determine how a game was played? It should go without saying that the box scores have to be informed by watching game play!
To blame a loss on the refs is a punk move, but to discuss them is what happens in every fan base and by every coach after every game so.....
Did anyone ever say one should look at a box score to determine how a game was played? It should go without saying that the box scores have to be informed by watching game play!
No one is saying it isn't important. Just saying that you have to watch the game to get a feel for the officiating. You can't just look at free throws attempted.
