Zion

[coryfly]

If it yielded quality results, why not? Our lack of big time recruiting is going to start showing in the next few years

Yeah, I wouldn't mind at all Cal running our program like that. I do not want Roy running our program like that because he wouldn't be as successful. Roy is successful doing it the way he is doing it. He may be even more so if he could land a few elite OAD now and then (we would all love that). He would not be as successful trying to do what Cal is doing though. Cal does it better than anyone and is good at it. I would have no issues with that were he here. No way Roy would want to do it that way, nor should he as it just isn't how he sees things.

 

[morgousky]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind at all Cal running our program like that. I do not want Roy running our program like that because he wouldn't be as successful. Roy is successful doing it the way he is doing it. He may be even more so if he could land a few elite OAD now and then (we would all love that). He would not be as successful trying to do what Cal is doing though. Cal does it better than anyone and is good at it. I would have no issues with that were he here. No way Roy would want to do it that way, nor should he as it just isn't how he sees things.

Excellent post.

2 titles, 13 years(?),and 3 or 4 final fours? I'd say Roy has been plenty successful with the approach. Although the way recruiting has changed since around 2008, and he might not average those results in the future, UNC was still a few shots away from a national title just last season. There's too much ridicule over one style to the next. Most coaches can mold upperclassman and be dominant, but few win one title let alone two. Roy is rare in his success with his approach. It's also rare a coach can do what Cal does with recycled rosters. It's his gift.

I know what it's like being on the losing end of recruiting battles. I watched Hans and Wright be considered UK locks for a long time only to lose both to UNC. But at least in this cycle, UNC is still currently competing at a really high level.

If that changes over the next three years, maybe consider a change in recruiting philosophy. But I think both Cal and Roy are two of the nost successfully at their approach currently.

 

[Archer2]

I'm 27. More relevant, our 66 year old coach has been recruiting multiple OADs year after year. You think there might be some reason for his strategy? Or is he just an entitled brat too?

Sorry if I offended you. Listen, nobody called you a spoiled brat. I said younger people generally have less patience and expect quicker results. I don't think there's any doubt about that. There's a reason people call this the age of instant gratification. The older you get, the more patient you generally become and the more you value tradition. I said I didn't expect you to understand my perspective because of the differences in our ages.

But in reality, it sounds like we're not that far apart re: OAD's. I don't want UNC to become a revolvong door with OAD's coming and going every year and it sounds like you don't either. Roy does recruit OAD's, but he doesn't cater to them. IOW, he is not going to build his team around them like Cal and Krazywhiskey do. They are expected to earn their time and pay their dues. He'll start freshmen if they're good enough though.

Perhaps because of this UNC isn't perceived as a school that is "OAD friendly". Or perhaps it's because guys like Barnes and Henson chose to return. Some of our guys, who could have potentially left after one year, did not. Bottom line is, we're not seen as a school that is conducive to getting to the NBA ASAP. And with top 15 talent in this age of instant gratification, that's what matters most, not school tradition, family environment, educational opportunities, etc... Jordan, Perkins, Worthy, and Carter all could have left after one year. They didn't because they valued all of the above. That's what I mean by the age of instant gratification.

The younger you are, the more likely you are to like Cal's OAD approach. The older you are, the less likely you are because you value the traditional approach.

 

[gauchoheel]

Sorry if I offended you. Listen, nobody called you a spoiled brat. I said younger people generally have less patience and expect quicker results. I don't think there's any doubt about that. There's a reason people call this the age of instant gratification. The older you get, the more patient you generally become and the more you value tradition. I said I didn't expect you to understand my perspective because of the differences in our ages.

But in reality, it sounds like we're not that far apart re: OAD's. I don't want UNC to become a revolvong door with OAD's coming and going every year and it sounds like you don't either. Roy does recruit OAD's, but he doesn't cater to them. IOW, he is not going to build his team around them like Cal and Krazywhiskey do. They are expected to earn their time and pay their dues. He'll start freshmen if they're good enough though.

Perhaps because of this UNC isn't perceived as a school that is "OAD friendly". Or perhaps it's because guys like Barnes and Henson chose to return. Some of our guys, who could have potentially left after one year, did not. Bottom line is, we're not seen as a school that is conducive to getting to the NBA ASAP. And with top 15 talent in this age of instant gratification, that's what matters most, not school tradition, family environment, educational opportunities, etc... Jordan, Perkins, Worthy, and Carter all could have left after one year. They didn't because they valued all of the above. That's what I mean by the age of instant gratification.

The younger you are, the more likely you are to like Cal's OAD approach. The older you are, the less likely you are because you value the traditional approach.

I really could not care less about your thoughts on people my age. Absolutely uninterested. Let's stick to basketball please.

It sounds like we are not far off regarding OADs, although I personally differ in that I have no problem becoming a OAD factory like Kentucky IF that is the best way to maximize wins. I don't care for moral or "traditional" arguments against OADs like emphasizing education, Dean's methods, etc. Not relevant to me.

What I want is the method that maximizes wins under the rules we're given right now. I suspect the best way to do that involves taking 2-3 OADs per year, some top 75 guys, and a few lower level guys mixed in. So that's the strategy I'd personally like to see UNC shoot for. Coincidentally it DOES seem to be the approach Roy is taking. He's just not hitting on the OAD part of it right now, but it's certainly not for lack of trying. Had we hit on all of our top targets this year our class is probably: Bamba, Knox, Tilmon, Felton, and maybe a lower level guy like Platek to be here 4 years.

Do I like the OAD rule? No. I'd prefer to see 0-and-2. Gives the kids more freedom and improves the college game. But these are the rules we're given for now.

 

[Archer2]

I really could not care less about your thoughts on people my age. Absolutely uninterested. Let's stick to basketball please.

It sounds like we are not far off regarding OADs, although I personally differ in that I have no problem becoming a OAD factory like Kentucky IF that is the best way to maximize wins. I don't care for moral or "traditional" arguments against OADs like emphasizing education, Dean's methods, etc. Not relevant to me.

What I want is the method that maximizes wins under the rules we're given right now. I suspect the best way to do that involves taking 2-3 OADs per year, some top 75 guys, and a few lower level guys mixed in. So that's the strategy I'd personally like to see UNC shoot for. Coincidentally it DOES seem to be the approach Roy is taking. He's just not hitting on the OAD part of it right now, but it's certainly not for lack of trying. Had we hit on all of our top targets this year our class is probably: Bamba, Knox, Tilmon, Felton, and maybe a lower level guy like Platek to be here 4 years.

Do I like the OAD rule? No. I'd prefer to see 0-and-2. Gives the kids more freedom and improves the college game. But these are the rules we're given for now.

After this post it sounds like we are worlds apart on our opinions, about 36 years worth. I'm not surprised so I'm just going to say I disagree and leave it at that.

 

[gobblercalls]

Apparently when we quit teaching patience we also quit teaching respect. What a shame.

 

[Deezheelz]

Apparently when we quit teaching patience we also quit teaching respect. What a shame.

Respect is the most important thing today's generation has lost, by far.

 

[gunslingerdick]

But it can. Kentucky has a great family atmosphere and always has. I think claiming a OAD can't be family because he decided it's in his best interest to take the 4 million dollar payout early is sad.
.

I know I'm not personally belittling anyone. The bottom line is that I simply prefer watching guys develop over time. Call it selfish, but it makes following the program easier when I don't have to learn about droves of newbies year in and year out. I don't care that UK does it. I'll make fun of it when the opportunity presents itself because that's what rivals do. And I'll possibly claim moral superiority from our kids at some point because they seem bought in on a higher level. That may not be true, but I don't care. There are no rules to fandom. So you fan how you want to and leave us to fan how we want to.

With that said, I've appreciated your poasts over here the last week or so.

 

[gunslingerdick]

But you can't look at UK and not call what they do successful. It's paid off.

If your metric is only wins/losses, then maybe you're right (although I could argue we've had just as much success doing it our way but whatever - that's a debate for another time). If you measure success of the program by more than just wins/losses, then I could argue that Cal's model isn't paying off any more than anyone else's. I, personally, get enjoyment from other aspects of the program than just winning and losing. I like seeing players come back from injury. If Pinson was OAD, we'd barely know what he looks like. I like watching the maturation process take place over the course of a career. If Paige was OAD, he wouldn't have given us and basketball fans everywhere one of the most clutch, remarkable shots in the history of the NCAA tournament. If Jackson was OAD, we get blown out by UK and that game isn't the most epic regular season game of the last 5 years. If Hansbrough was OAD,...whoa.

 

[DSouthr]

Respect is the most important thing today's generation has lost, by far.

I could not agree more, there is a far different perspective on respect for my generation than there is for this younger generation, I do not say that to insult any one so please don't take it that way. I think it is in the way we were taught, I grew up in elementary school saying the pledge of allegiance every day, was taught to respect your elders, church on Sunday was not optional. In my generation we were taught that respect was a thing that had to be earned, it was not your right to demand it if you had not earned it. I was taught no one owed me anything, that I had to earn what I got. I was taught there is a price to pay for bad judgement, many times that lesson was re-inforced by a switch or my dad's USMC leather belt, trust me, it had a way of teaching that was very effective.

The way I was taught as a child is today considered bad, not that I understand how it could ever come to this but it has. I am not happy that it has either by the way but it is up to this generation to figure it all out and they will but it is harder for them in some ways. This instant gratification world is strange to me, it is cool in that so much is available at the push of a button or a few key clicks but sometimes we know more now that what may be good for us to know.

I do think many of my generation may see Roy and the way he runs this program in a better light than many of the younger folks do, maybe that is a old foggy that is out of touch with todays reality or maybe this old foggy isn't all that wrong. Every generation has its own way to figure it all out and wil be true for this one, I just hope the world we have handed off to the younger folks is better than the one we got from our elders and I hope this younger generation can hand off an even better world to their children...

"When I find myself in times of trouble, mother Mary comforts me, seeking words of wisdom, let it be"...

 

[heelmanwilm]

It sticks in our craw that ky has bragging rights in recruiting. Their current run of i think 7 top ranked classes in ten yrs is pretty freaking impressive. But fact is in the 14 yrs coach williams has been here no coach has done better in every other positive category except for acc tourney titles. That includes cal and kay and that includes nattys and final fours among a dz or so other stats. So let them have their bragging rights re cal's recruting. I'll take coach williams' court results over his recruiting classes any freaking day.

 

[DSouthr]

If your metric is only wins/losses, then maybe you're right (although I could argue we've had just as much success doing it our way but whatever - that's a debate for another time). If you measure success of the program by more than just wins/losses, then I could argue that Cal's model isn't paying off any more than anyone else's. I, personally, get enjoyment from other aspects of the program than just winning and losing. I like seeing players come back from injury. If Pinson was OAD, we'd barely know what he looks like. I like watching the maturation process take place over the course of a career. If Paige was OAD, he wouldn't have given us and basketball fans everywhere one of the most clutch, remarkable shots in the history of the NCAA tournament. If Jackson was OAD, we get blown out by UK and that game isn't the most epic regular season game of the last 5 years. If Hansbrough was OAD,...whoa.

I have been in a couple of industries and had success in them but all the sudden the rules changed and the success ended. The one & done thing is working out great for Ky and duke right now but all it will take is a simple rule change that is actually being discussed to cause the one and done success to evaporate and all programs will have to go back to what we are doing successfully right now. All that has to happen is for a path way to be established for the one & done talents to bypass college and enter the draft right out of high school. When that happens the difference maker freshmen will not be in college to make the difference. Even if Ky or duke dominate the level of talent below the one & doners, that level has to be more developed as players than the one & done guy. If your program has relied on out talenting opponents with mega gifted freshmen then your program is going to be in a bind.

Hitching your wagon to the one & done deal is in my opinion mortgage your future, do what Roy is doing is setting things up for the long term and with the results being similar, I prefer the long term game to the short term hope the rules do not change.

 

[heelmanwilm]

Well no team has come close to ky's recruiting success the last ten yrs. yet they have only one title and that took a once in a decade player growing 5 inches in one year to do it. Good luck matching that.

 

[dukephysics]

The respect thing is real. In fairness to "this generation" the ones responsible for teaching respect are the previous generation. Respectful (and not) kids are a reflection of their parents. I like to think I'm fairly respectful of others - and that is due to my dad who wouldn't have had it any other way.
I was in a restaurant the other day, and a young girl maybe 10 or 11 went to the napkin/fork/straw... stand and said "excuse me" and was aware of other people both coming and going. Her folks are doing things right. And they would probably be considered "this generation" by some who are complaining about this generation.

 

[DSouthr]

The respect thing is real. In fairness to "this generation" the ones responsible for teaching respect are the previous generation. Respectful (and not) kids are a reflection of their parents. I like to think I'm fairly respectful of others - and that is due to my dad who wouldn't have had it any other way.
I was in a restaurant the other day, and a young girl maybe 10 or 11 went to the napkin/fork/straw... stand and said "excuse me" and was aware of other people both coming and going. Her folks are doing things right. And they would probably be considered "this generation" by some who are complaining about this generation.

I hate to side track this thread with what may be more of an off topic discussion and maybe should not have in my prior post. I am not so much complaining as I am saying it isn't how I was taught. I do totally agree, my generation did teach the Millenniums as they will teach the Gen X generation. IN what I may consider to be wrong any blame does very much fall on those teaching and not the students, I do blame my generation for not teaching what we were taught. We felt we knew more than our parents, funny how my parents got smarter the older I got. Maybe we should have listened more to those that had more life experience, maybe that is and will be true for all generations.

 

[tarheel0910]

Well no team has come close to ky's recruiting success the last ten yrs. yet they have only one title and that took a once in a decade player growing 5 inches in one year to do it. Good luck matching that.

True, but in my opinion the number of titles is not the best measure of success for college basketball because it's so hard to win the tournament in the current set up. Titles should never be expected by any programs. You can hope for it, but to expect it isn't rational in my opinion.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind at all Cal running our program like that.

Not me. I hate the way he runs a team, revolving door is not what I want to see us become.

 

[carolinablue34]

Not me. I hate the way he runs a team, revolving door is not what I want to see us become.

I know you're big on tradition mike. But the ability to adapt is part of the game and if something isn't done soon, we are going to get left behind.

And by the way, I understand some of the frustrations with millennials, I don't like some of our tendencies either. But the blame cannot be put squarely on us. Keep in mind it was the baby boomers who raised us and instilled this "everyone is special, everyone gets a trophy" bullshit. We didn't ask for it.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

I know you're big on tradition mike. But the ability to adapt is part of the game and if something isn't done soon, we are going to get left behind.

You mean like last season and the two teams battling for it all?

OAD has a long ways to go to be proven THE WAY to win titles.

 

[UNC '92]

Fans today would shudder to know Dean won 20+ games every year with projects like Serge zwikker, henrik rodl, warren martin, pat sullivan, dave popson, ranzino smith, steve bucknell. It wasnt all worthys and jordans and carters. Keep winning with what we get in my humble opinion and hope that some studs like what they see on the court.

Everyone of those folks you mentioned had a Brad D, a Kenny Smith, a Stackhouse and a Wallace. Dean usually had top producing guys paired with the players you mentioned.

 

[carolinablue34]

You mean like last season and the two teams battling for it all?

OAD has a long ways to go to be proven THE WAY to win titles.

Well of course it's not THE way, but it does give a very high chance. I think above all it provides the opportunity for brand when you have stars in the NBA. In order to win with 4 or 5 OADs they have to have a proper cohesion and chemistry. And we've seen what can happen when they do.

I'm not saying we should do a complete 180 and be like Kentucky and have a different roster every year. But something needs to be done differently if we want the best of the best again. No doubt in my mind.

 

[Archer2]

Not me. I hate the way he runs a team, revolving door is not what I want to see us become.

Me either. If we make winning the only metric that counts and become a OADU with OAD's coming and going every year, I'll give up on college athletics altogether.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I know you're big on tradition mike. But the ability to adapt is part of the game and if something isn't done soon, we are going to get left behind.
.

You cannot prove that statement to be true yet so many people keep saying it. They've been saying it and I'm still sitting here waiting on it to happen.

And by the way, I understand some of the frustrations with millennials, I don't like some of our tendencies either. But the blame cannot be put squarely on us

This made me laugh. Not a knock on you personally. But a millennial blaming others for the way they're perceived is exactly why they're perceived that way.

 

[tarheel0910]

You cannot prove that statement to be true yet so many people keep saying it. They've been saying it and I'm still sitting here waiting on it to happen.

I would say that getting a bunch of three star recruits is proof that it's true when it comes to recruiting. It's still up in the air if that hurts the win/loss column, but one would think it would be a safe bet that having a bunch of low ranked recruits is going to hurt us. People keep talking about how Roy is doing it with less talent, but he still has talent on the team. It's not full of five star OAD, but they aren't a bunch of three star players either.

 

[Deezheelz]

If you really look at most of the heavy hitters in today's NBA most went somewhere other than uk or dook. Just saying!

 

[trestyles]

UNC will soon have a bunch of OADs soon old guys. With Roy or After Roy. You have to adapt with the game. All it takes is one.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

For the sidebar conversation about millennials:

All of the older generations were ragged on by their previous generations by the way they acted and did things too. When us millennials are old fogeys like you all, we'll be ragging on the way the future generations do things as well. Then they'll in turn do the same when they're old.

That's how the generational gaps work.

 

[carolinablue34]

You cannot prove that statement to be true yet so many people keep saying it. They've been saying it and I'm still sitting here waiting on it to happen.



This made me laugh. Not a knock on you personally. But a millennial blaming others for the way they're perceived is exactly why they're perceived that way.

I'm not saying some the behavior isn't on us, I believe this. But we also were put into a set of circumstances beyond our control, including the way we were raised. FYI, we didn't come up with the special snowflake stuff.

That being said, it's also our job to break out of those habits and teach future generations how to behave better than we have in some cases.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

This made me laugh. Not a knock on you personally. But a millennial blaming others for the way they're perceived is exactly why they're perceived that way.

Your generation raised us, so.... good ****ing job lol.

It's no wonder kids turned out soft when their mommies DROVE them to the bus stop. A phenomenon I still don't understand.

 

[gobblercalls]

Some on here would have abandoned ship back in the early 70's when we were missing out on David Thompson , John Lucas, Tom McMillan and the like. We were finishing behind State and Maryland in recruiting and on the court. In the long run though we turned out okay. Be patient folks, it'll turn again shortly.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I would say that getting a bunch of three star recruits is proof that it's true when it comes to recruiting. .

I don't understand this. You're saying that because we're signing 4 year guys instead of OAD guys that our recruiting will suffer? Huh?

Let me clarify, @carolinablue34 was making the statement that if we don't start signing OAD guys (at least that's what I read into his using the word "adapt"), we'll be left behind. I contend that he can't prove that. And he can't...unless you're willing to say we "have been left behind". I would say a title game appearance last year and being a top 5-10 team this would say we are definitely not in anyone's dust. So, that's why I said people have been making that claim for 3-5 years now and I'm still waiting on us to be left behind.

 

[tarheel0910]

I don't understand this. You're saying that because we're signing 4 year guys instead of OAD guys that our recruiting will suffer? Huh?

The whole idea is that we needed to adapt to the times since that is what is bringing in the 5 star recruits. We haven't done that and it is showing in our recruiting since we have brought in several three star guys, which is below what we have been doing in the past. Nothing wrong with the top 3-4 year players, but a team full of mostly three star players probably isn't going to lead to a lot of winning. Less winning usually doesn't help with recruiting. Of course that part isn't proven yet.

 

[gunslingerdick]

The whole idea is that we needed to adapt to the times since that is what is bringing in the 5 star recruits. We haven't done that and it is showing in our recruiting since we have brought in several three star guys, which is below what we have been doing in the past. Nothing wrong with the top 3-4 year players, but a team full of mostly three star players probably isn't going to lead to a lot of winning. Less winning usually doesn't help with recruiting. Of course that part isn't proven yet.

I don't give a rat's ass if our recruiting suffers as long as the W/L column doesn't. And while you can use conventional wisdom to hypothesize that recruiting misses will ultimately lead to less winning, you can't prove that to be true at Carolina...yet. I'll wait and see before jumping on board with an "adaptation" that I don't really support.

 

[TPFKAPFS]

When does this "less winning thing happen? I keep hearing how we are being left behind while I sit at home just like the programs that are leaving us behind and WATCH the championship game! Please leave me behind at work so I can make more money!

Last I checked, coaches get recognized for winning games not recruiting!

 

[RoseHeel]

I don't give a rat's ass if our recruiting suffers as long as the W/L column doesn't. And while you can use conventional wisdom to hypothesize that recruiting misses will ultimately lead to less winning, you can't prove that to be true at Carolina...yet. I'll wait and see before jumping on board with an "adaptation" that I don't really support.

Although I don't buy that we need to become UK Lite to win, We have had 3 10+ loss seasons in a row before last year. And with a class chocked full of 3 stars, we're a mass exodus away from potentially seeing that happen again. Since the dawn of the OAD in 2009, you cannot deny our W/L results have hit some slack.

 

[gunslingerdick]

When does this "less winning thing happen? I keep hearing how we are being left behind

Yeah, that's my point. People have been saying that now for several years and it just hasn't happened yet. But to @tarheel0910's point, the cupboard hasn't been as bare as maybe it will be in the future. I'm not sold that it will be but the doom and gloomers seem to think it will be. I think we are struggling to land quality big men right now (for some unknown and very strange reason) but with wings and guards, we seem to be fairing right well.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Although I don't buy that we need to become UK Lite to win, We have had 3 10+ loss seasons in a row before last year. And with a class chocked full of 3 stars, we're a mass exodus away from potentially seeing that happen again. Since the dawn of the OAD in 2009, you cannot deny our W/L results have hit some slack.

So 3 seasons of 10+ losses means we sound the alarm? Good graciousness...you guys are hard to please. Just as a frame of reference, during that same 3 year period you're referencing, Cal and the might UK recruiting machine has had two 10+ loss seasons (in a much worse conference). Duke didn't have any 10+ loss seasons in that same 3 year period of time, but they had one last year and maybe it's because they're scared of true OOC road games, that they are able to keep their losses down. And maybe our losses aren't so much attributed to recruiting misses as they are to the growing parity we've seen in college basketball over the past several years.

Look, I'm not saying that I don't want us to recruit well. And I'm not saying that we should absolutely stay away from OAD players. One here and there is fine. All I'm saying is that Carolina fans are screaming like their hair is on fire because of a small, statistically invalid sample of recruiting downswing. I'm just not freaking out like everyone else.

 

[tarheel0910]

I don't give a rat's ass if our recruiting suffers as long as the W/L column doesn't. And while you can use conventional wisdom to hypothesize that recruiting misses will ultimately lead to less winning, you can't prove that to be true at Carolina...yet. I'll wait and see before jumping on board with an "adaptation" that I don't really support.

I agree you can't prove that yet. I was saying that our ability to land five star recruits has been hurt, at least in part, by not changing our style. Everyone seems to agree with that. That being said I couldn't care less about recruiting so I regret getting involved in the argument.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I agree you can't prove that yet. I was saying that our ability to land five star recruits has been hurt, at least in part, by not changing our style. .

What is "style"? What you're essentially saying is that our recruiting has been hurt by our recruiting.

But like you, I'm over it.

 

[tarheel0910]

What is "style"? What you're essentially saying is that our recruiting has been hurt by our recruiting.

But like you, I'm over it.

When I say style I mean the way UK recruits vs the way we recruit. I'll get you to the NBA faster and we're cooler vs I'll develop you long term and we don't care about being cool.