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Afgan withdraw

The author's credentials:

Frank Figliuzzi is an MSNBC columnist and a national security contributor for NBC News and MSNBC. He was the assistant director for counterintelligence at the FBI, where he served 25 years as a special agent and directed all espionage investigations across the government. He is the author of "The FBI Way: Inside the Bureau's Code of Excellence."


Your credentials:

Message board poster
Trump/Pompeo agreed to give the country to the Taliban. What do you think was going to happen to prisoners in those bases? Another guantanamo?

We'd already let go 5,000 as stated here in the deal. Just 4 pages long, even you can handle that. https://2017-2021.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Signed-Agreement-02292020.pdf

Yes, we're letting bad guys into the world by leaving, but we can't stay there forever - both sides agree (if you say Trump/Pompeo are your side)
 
There are ways to remove our people covertly from a country, so Taliban hardly knows we are getting the US civilians and troops out... and we have sufficient weaponry / air cover to bomb them if they had violently obstructed our leaving (if they - Taliban - fired shots, blocked roadways, airports, harmed US civilians).

But Biden did none of this. Now it's just "every man and woman for yourself. Try to get to the airport, but we (the US govt / military) can't protect you." Nice!

Now, Biden / the generals are having to redeploy a lot more military to try to find a way to get the 10-11,000 US citizens out, who are largely trapped now by the Taliban. It is touch and go...it could get really messy. There is a lot of reported violence - at least against Afghans - in the last couple days by the Taliban. What are the chances Americans are spared from the Taliban barbarism?

The departure was going to be messy, but it could have been a lot more discreet, covert, supported by US military force; instead of this haphazard cut-and-run, every person fend for him/herself (with zero way to defend self from a bunch of goons who'd love to kill you).
Luckily no Americans have died. We obviously knew that ANY type of exit would be trouble for Afghans, rushed exit or not rushed.

Americans there have known this was coming since Feb 2020. State Department had been advising Americans to leave for several weeks. We can't drive all over Afghanistan shepherding people given just 2,500 soldiers who are mostly just manning bases.

Obviously intel was bad regarding how quickly Afghans would sell-out or fold.

It especially sucks for the afghan-"allies" though, but unless they had plans to leave our departure would always suck for them.
 
Trump/Pompeo agreed to give the country to the Taliban. What do you think was going to happen to prisoners in those bases? Another guantanamo?

We'd already let go 5,000 as stated here in the deal. Just 4 pages long, even you can handle that. https://2017-2021.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Signed-Agreement-02292020.pdf

Yes, we're letting bad guys into the world by leaving, but we can't stay there forever - both sides agree (if you say Trump/Pompeo are your side)
You should stop while you're behind.
 
The author's credentials:

Frank Figliuzzi is an MSNBC columnist and a national security contributor for NBC News and MSNBC. He was the assistant director for counterintelligence at the FBI, where he served 25 years as a special agent and directed all espionage investigations across the government. He is the author of "The FBI Way: Inside the Bureau's Code of Excellence."


Your credentials:

Message board poster
What other policies did Trump have in place that Biden is adhering to?
 
Trump/Pompeo agreed to give the country to the Taliban
stop-it-get-some-help.gif
 
Again, what other policies that Trump had is Biden adhering to? Wait in Mexico, Prop 42, Keystone, drilling on Federal lands.........which ones?
Exactly. They had no problem ripping up agreements and policies everywhere else, but for some reason this one was etched in stone? Lol.

And even if it were - that doesn't mean the execution of the withdrawal had to be botched in spectacular fashion the way it was.

Listen to Biden himself, @blazers, (plagiarized from Harry Truman) "The buck stops with [him]".
 
Exactly. They had no problem ripping up agreements and policies everywhere else, but for some reason this one was etched in stone? Lol.

And even if it were - that doesn't mean the execution of the withdrawal had to be botched in spectacular fashion the way it was.

Listen to Biden himself, @blazers, (plagiarized from Harry Truman) "The buck stops with [him]".
Thank you.
 
Exactly. They had no problem ripping up agreements and policies everywhere else, but for some reason this one was etched in stone? Lol.

And even if it were - that doesn't mean the execution of the withdrawal had to be botched in spectacular fashion the way it was.

Listen to Biden himself, @blazers, (plagiarized from Harry Truman) "The buck stops with [him]".
He's at the top, but he really had just two decisions, both bad. One (break the deal) leads to escalation in an unwinnable war fighting for sellouts who won't fight for themselves, the other leads to a mess in Kabul for non-americans coming sooner rather than later.
 
The possibility this is a result of bad intelligence is concerning. Intelligence community gets billions dollars, has had 20 years to develop assets on the ground, and they can't keep tabs on a bunch of goat herders?
 
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The possibility this is a result of bad intelligence is concerning. Intelligence community gets billions dollars, has had 20 years to develop assets on the ground, and they can't keep tabs on a bunch of goat herders?
Intelligence might have been bad concerning the timeline of the takeover, but you don't need intel to do what needed to be done. Properly handing off a military base is an obvious thing to do. Evacuating assets before you pull all the troops is a no brainer.
 
The possibility this is a result of bad intelligence is concerning. Intelligence community gets billions dollars, has had 20 years to develop assets on the ground, and they can't keep tabs on a bunch of goat herders?
the intelligence might have been relatively bad, but it can't account for the utter stupidity of the way this so-called withdrawal was handled. If nothing else, Biden should be removed from office for virtually handing the Taliban a treasure trove of U.S. equipment.
 
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the intelligence might have been relatively bad, but it can't account for the utter stupidity of the way this so-called withdrawal was handled. If nothing else, Biden should be removed from office for virtually handing the Taliban a treasure trove of U.S. equipment.

I'm not making excuses for Biden. I thought the initial plan was to have everyone out months ago, before the Taliban had time to organize, strengthen and overtake most of the country. But maybe I'm wrong. I admittedly haven't followed this closely.
 
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this is awesome. This should really encourage cooperation from the citizens of other countries when we need to foil an enemy. But you can't give Biden credit I'm afraid. He says it was inevitable for this to happen, no matter who ordered this fiasco or when it was ordered. Shit just happens, according to Joe. C'est la vie, right Joe?

There is now grounds for impeachment, because it's plain that he lied his ass off regarding the intelligence.
 
There is now grounds for impeachment, because it's plain that he lied his ass off regarding the intelligence.
giphy.gif


From yesterday:
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Milley said the estimated time frame of a rapid collapse in Afghanistan was estimated “from weeks to months, and even years.”

“There was nothing that I or anyone else saw that indicated a collapse of this army in this government in 11 days,” said General Milley.
 
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From yesterday:
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Milley said the estimated time frame of a rapid collapse in Afghanistan was estimated “from weeks to months, and even years.”

“There was nothing that I or anyone else saw that indicated a collapse of this army in this government in 11 days,” said General Milley.
and there he goes again, doing what he always does. I saw Milley's remarks and IMMEDIATELY recognized the word game he was playing. To begin with, Biden first said there was no intelligence that indicated such a rapid collapse. THEN, when later pressed, he said there was no CONSENSUS indicating a rapid collapse.



'Weeks' is virtually the same as 11 days, but it isn't exactly 11 days...so Milley can say no one predicted a collapse in 11 days and he isn't lying...but he isn't telling the truth either. I'm sure no one said, 'I think a collapse will happen in 11 days'. But obviously, someone said it would happen very rapidly, in much less time than we could safely evacuate those who needed to be evacuated and to salvage all or most of the equipment we so generously donated to these cutthroat bastards.

So you tell me, genius...if you have intel that indicates a rapid collapse, are you going to ignore that and roll the dice, or are you going to thoughtfully take a more cautious approach for the sake of humanity and a dozen other considerations?
 
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Sending them back in was the real sign that you know he got it wrong. He was warned constantly about doing it his way but decided he knew better.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...othing-inevitable-about-disaster-afghanistan/
There is no question that he got it wrong. The question is how bad was the Intel.

Your link's point about 4,500 is interesting food for thought though.

I looked at the report they cite, it says:

"Expert consultations indicated that around 4,500 troops are required to secure U.S. interests under current conditions and at an acceptable level of risk. This number allows for training, advising, and assisting Afghan defense forces; supporting allied forces; conducting counterterrorism operations; and securing our embassy—all of which are critical to our interests.

From the same report:
"Although the U.S. military presence slows the rate of Taliban ascendance, it cannot reverse it. Prolonging the U.S. military deployment much beyond May 2021 will not significantly moderate the Taliban’s demands, but it will risk intensifying the fighting and precipitating the end of negotiations."

Also from the same report:
"It is difficult to predict whether Taliban ascendancy would be rapid as a consequence of a government implosion; or would be resisted and prolonged if the government—facing an existential crisis—found the resources to unite against a common enemy; or Afghanistan would become bogged down in a complicated, multiparty, and regionalized civil war."

But nowhere in this report do they cite the fact that Afghans leaders were selling their equipment to the Taliban in 2020. Ignorance = bad intel.

This report basically says "you could try just 4,500 but you risk intensifying the fighting". But even they didn't predict that the Afghans would fold in days. - Bad intel.

So this "4,500" feels like a WAG given all the other mixed "Intel". EVERYONE underestimated the true strength of the Taliban and true weakness of the Afghans. Based on the Taliban strength we now see, it would've meant WAR if we stayed, bad outcomes no matter what path Biden chose.
 
There is no question that he got it wrong. The question is how bad was the Intel.

Your link's point about 4,500 is interesting food for thought though.

I looked at the report they cite, it says:

"Expert consultations indicated that around 4,500 troops are required to secure U.S. interests under current conditions and at an acceptable level of risk. This number allows for training, advising, and assisting Afghan defense forces; supporting allied forces; conducting counterterrorism operations; and securing our embassy—all of which are critical to our interests.

From the same report:
"Although the U.S. military presence slows the rate of Taliban ascendance, it cannot reverse it. Prolonging the U.S. military deployment much beyond May 2021 will not significantly moderate the Taliban’s demands, but it will risk intensifying the fighting and precipitating the end of negotiations."

Also from the same report:
"It is difficult to predict whether Ta
There is no question that he got it wrong. The question is how bad was the Intel.

Your link's point about 4,500 is interesting food for thought though.

I looked at the report they cite, it says:

"Expert consultations indicated that around 4,500 troops are required to secure U.S. interests under current conditions and at an acceptable level of risk. This number allows for training, advising, and assisting Afghan defense forces; supporting allied forces; conducting counterterrorism operations; and securing our embassy—all of which are critical to our interests.

From the same report:
"Although the U.S. military presence slows the rate of Taliban ascendance, it cannot reverse it. Prolonging the U.S. military deployment much beyond May 2021 will not significantly moderate the Taliban’s demands, but it will risk intensifying the fighting and precipitating the end of negotiations."

Also from the same report:
"It is difficult to predict whether Taliban ascendancy would be rapid as a consequence of a government implosion; or would be resisted and prolonged if the government—facing an existential crisis—found the resources to unite against a common enemy; or Afghanistan would become bogged down in a complicated, multiparty, and regionalized civil war."

But nowhere in this report do they cite the fact that Afghans leaders were selling their equipment to the Taliban in 2020. Ignorance = bad intel.

This report basically says "you could try just 4,500 but you risk intensifying the fighting". But even they didn't predict that the Afghans would fold in days. - Bad intel.

So this "4,500" feels like a WAG given all the other mixed "Intel". EVERYONE underestimated the true strength of the Taliban and true weakness of the Afghans. Based on the Taliban strength we now see, it would've meant WAR if we stayed, bad outcomes no matter what path Biden chose.

liban ascendancy would be rapid as a consequence of a government implosion; or would be resisted and prolonged if the government—facing an existential crisis—found the resources to unite against a common enemy; or Afghanistan would become bogged down in a complicated, multiparty, and regionalized civil war."

But nowhere in this report do they cite the fact that Afghans leaders were selling their equipment to the Taliban in 2020. Ignorance = bad intel.

This report basically says "you could try just 4,500 but you risk intensifying the fighting". But even they didn't predict that the Afghans would fold in days. - Bad intel.

So this "4,500" feels like a WAG given all the other mixed "Intel". EVERYONE underestimated the true strength of the Taliban and true weakness of the Afghans. Based on the Taliban strength we now see, it would've meant WAR if we stayed, bad outcomes no matter what path Biden chose.
8ff174fa0bd985ea9f2ec48d9fcfbd22.jpg
 
There is no question that he got it wrong. The question is how bad was the Intel.

Your link's point about 4,500 is interesting food for thought though.

I looked at the report they cite, it says:

"Expert consultations indicated that around 4,500 troops are required to secure U.S. interests under current conditions and at an acceptable level of risk. This number allows for training, advising, and assisting Afghan defense forces; supporting allied forces; conducting counterterrorism operations; and securing our embassy—all of which are critical to our interests.

From the same report:
"Although the U.S. military presence slows the rate of Taliban ascendance, it cannot reverse it. Prolonging the U.S. military deployment much beyond May 2021 will not significantly moderate the Taliban’s demands, but it will risk intensifying the fighting and precipitating the end of negotiations."

Also from the same report:
"It is difficult to predict whether Taliban ascendancy would be rapid as a consequence of a government implosion; or would be resisted and prolonged if the government—facing an existential crisis—found the resources to unite against a common enemy; or Afghanistan would become bogged down in a complicated, multiparty, and regionalized civil war."

But nowhere in this report do they cite the fact that Afghans leaders were selling their equipment to the Taliban in 2020. Ignorance = bad intel.

This report basically says "you could try just 4,500 but you risk intensifying the fighting". But even they didn't predict that the Afghans would fold in days. - Bad intel.

So this "4,500" feels like a WAG given all the other mixed "Intel". EVERYONE underestimated the true strength of the Taliban and true weakness of the Afghans. Based on the Taliban strength we now see, it would've meant WAR if we stayed, bad outcomes no matter what path Biden chose.
@UNC '92 Next time, please find an article from someone that has better credentials than @blazers. Of course that's assuming you can find someone with more knowledge about war/intel/geopolitics than a random message board poster.
 
@UNC '92 Next time, please find an article from someone that has better credentials than @blazers. Of course that's assuming you can find someone with more knowledge about war/intel/geopolitics than a random message board poster.
Yeah he's just trolling or so ate up with it he's stupid. I'll let folks here make up their own mind. That said, @uncboy10 and I agree on almost nothing except football, so I know this is not a partisan thing here. There is a right way and a wrong way to handle these things. Biden went about it the wrong way. And he did so unilaterally.
 
Yeah he's just trolling or so ate up with it he's stupid. I'll let folks here make up their own mind. That said, @uncboy10 and I agree on almost nothing except football, so I know this is not a partisan thing here. There is a right way and a wrong way to handle these things. Biden went about it the wrong way. And he did so unilaterally.

To be fair there are probably some basketball related things we agree on too.
 
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