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Games from the past

tarwhiz

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I was watching the 1977 National Semi- final between UNC/UNLV this morning on the treadmill. It was a 84- 83 Carolina win.
I was surprised by the amount of turnovers in the game, especially by Phil Ford as I was watching.
I checked the boxscore after the game and Carolina committed 27 turnovers in this game! Phil Ford had 9!!!!
We often lament about how today's basketball teams are not as good as past teams, although the players are better.
It was hard to watch this game and think teams of the past were better than those of present day. This was not a very well played basketball game lol.
My grainy memory of this team took a hit watching this reply.😒
 
That 27 turnover stat is mind-boggling and makes me wonder how we pulled out a victory.
l remember drinking too much beer at He’s Not Here. 🍺🍺🍺🍺🤫
 
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Not sure but I think Ford had hyper-extended his right elbow a game or so earlier. Seems like maybe Keuster and O'Koren were the only healthy Heels in that FF.
 
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Things I remember about that game as a 16 year old becoming a die hard Tar Heel. I think O'Koren had a monster game, 30 plus points or so, and that we were up 84-81, then UNLV scored a basket after the buzzer but the refs were adamant about counting it. That bucket helped cover the spread (1.5) and that was my first lesson that sports betting could possibly be a little crooked, particularly since Vegas based UNLV was involved. Not saying that it was, is, or isn't, I just remember thinking that at the time.
 
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Not sure but I think Ford had hyper-extended his right elbow a game or so earlier. Seems like maybe Keuster and O'Koren were the only healthy Heels in that FF.
That is true, and Walter had a broken finger. LaGarde was lost for t he season when the,Heels were something like 18-1?
I guess I was pointing out how difficult it is to compare eras. I truthfully think last years team would have run the 1977 team off the floor, and last years team was maybe we the most frustrating watch in my lifetime.
 
That is true, and Walter had a broken finger. LaGarde was lost for t he season when the,Heels were something like 18-1?
I guess I was pointing out how difficult it is to compare eras. I truthfully think last years team would have run the 1977 team off the floor, and last years team was maybe we the most frustrating watch in my lifetime.
Not even close. Sorry, but that is 1,000,000% wrong. If the 77 team, even without Tommy, played last year's team 10 times, 77 would likely win 9 (and probably 10). And that's no exaggeration, by big margins

That is the danger of using raw stats on a given game. Look, I have watched that particular full game probably 7 0r 8 times since the first time (and just did again), and you are barking up the wrong tree here.

The games then and now are different. Literally NOBODY plays today at the pace UNLV did then. They averaged like 103 WITHOUT a clock or 3. They pressed all the time and fouled (and got away with fouls) at a frenetic level that would make Huggins' "Press Virginia" look tame. And they were scary-good and shot out of their minds that day. And think about this, in 77 we still outran them to get a working second-half lead, and Dean masterfully used the Point Zone and the Corners to take it home. But today? I'll go on record and say there's not another team in today's ACC that 77 UNLV couldn't run outta the gym. Our current team would be the only one that would have a decent chance against them.

There was no 3 line so the spaciing was more compact and TOs were easier to force, and it was easier to commit unforced ones. Moreover, the zebras totally lost controi of that one within the first few minutes. This is one of those games that started converations about going to 3 refs, which of course they did in the 80s.

Here's another difference, there was a 5-second closely guarded rule (!!!) --- that I wish they'd bring back --- so you couldn't just dribble down a clock like you can today. That in and of itself was a big catalyst for way more TOs. In fact that may be the SINGLE biggest difference in that aspect. I played and coached with the 5-second rule --- it matters a LOT.

Phil couldn't shoot for the entire FF after being mugged in the Regional and hurting his right elbow (and rehurt it during this game) --- he missed shots in both FF games he usually made in his sleep, plus it literally hurt severely to dribble and pass as well. One of the reasons John ran "Chaser" so much in the Corners was that Phil was hurting ao bad. Walter was recovering from a recently broken right hand with fingters taped together and couldn't grip the ball in that hand. That caused at least 2 of his TOs (the fact hat he managed to go 7-7 from the field is a damn profile in courage.

Oh, and as for Phil's TOs, 2 came from HORRIBLE offensive foul calls and he got hammered without calls on a couple others. And just a quick rewatch I also counted 10 dimes (although stat-keeping could be pretty arbitrary).

So again, for myriad reasons, do NOT underestimate the teams in that game. UNC 77 could be dominant in ANY era (especially with Tommy), and under ANY era's set of rules.
 
The 77 team was one of the best Tar Heel Teams in our schools history and I was 6 years old at the time. The 77 Team was an absolute machine. There are a few years that I have suffered from PTSD and this is one of them. The 77, 84 and 98 Teams are in my top three and not close behind is the 2008, 2012 and 2016 Teams. Throw in the 22 Team just because of our lead at halftime and we had the ball opening the second half.
 
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Not even close. Sorry, but that is 1,000,000% wrong. If the 77 team, even without Tommy, played last year's team 10 times, 77 would likely win 9 (and probably 10). And that's no exaggeration, by big margins

That is the danger of using raw stats on a given game. Look, I have watched that particular full game probably 7 0r 8 times since the first time (and just did again), and you are barking up the wrong tree here.

The games then and now are different. Literally NOBODY plays today at the pace UNLV did then. They averaged like 103 WITHOUT a clock or 3. They pressed all the time and fouled (and got away with fouls) at a frenetic level that would make Huggins' "Press Virginia" look tame. And they were scary-good and shot out of their minds that day. And think about this, in 77 we still outran them to get a working second-half lead, and Dean masterfully used the Point Zone and the Corners to take it home. But today? I'll go on record and say there's not another team in today's ACC that 77 UNLV couldn't run outta the gym. Our current team would be the only one that would have a decent chance against them.

There was no 3 line so the spaciing was more compact and TOs were easier to force, and it was easier to commit unforced ones. Moreover, the zebras totally lost controi of that one within the first few minutes. This is one of those games that started converations about going to 3 refs, which of course they did in the 80s.

Here's another difference, there was a 5-second closely guarded rule (!!!) --- that I wish they'd bring back --- so you couldn't just dribble down a clock like you can today. That in and of itself was a big catalyst for way more TOs. In fact that may be the SINGLE biggest difference in that aspect. I played and coached with the 5-second rule --- it matters a LOT.

Phil couldn't shoot for the entire FF after being mugged in the Regional and hurting his right elbow (and rehurt it during this game) --- he missed shots in both FF games he usually made in his sleep, plus it literally hurt severely to dribble and pass as well. One of the reasons John ran "Chaser" so much in the Corners was that Phil was hurting ao bad. Walter was recovering from a recently broken right hand with fingters taped together and couldn't grip the ball in that hand. That caused at least 2 of his TOs (the fact hat he managed to go 7-7 from the field is a damn profile in courage.

Oh, and as for Phil's TOs, 2 came from HORRIBLE offensive foul calls and he got hammered without calls on a couple others. And just a quick rewatch I also counted 10 dimes (although stat-keeping could be pretty arbitrary).

So again, for myriad reasons, do NOT underestimate the teams in that game. UNC 77 could be dominant in ANY era (especially with Tommy), and under ANY era's set of rules.
UNLV averaged 108 ppg that year and in that particular game every touch foul was being called the entire first half. There was very little physicality allowed, especially compared to what is allowed away from the ball in today's game.
Impossible to compare eras, but I stand by what I said. Games are not played in a vacuum.
Baby Ruth is the greatest baseball player of all time, because he absolutely dominated the competition he was going against at the time. He wouldn't even sniff the field if you teleported him into the present game.
You are smarter than that.
 
The 77 team was one of the best Tar Heel Teams in our schools history and I was 6 years old at the time. The 77 Team was an absolute machine. There are a few years that I have suffered from PTSD and this is one of them. The 77, 84 and 98 Teams are in my top three and not close behind is the 2008, 2012 and 2016 Teams. Throw in the 22 Team just because of our lead at halftime and we had the ball opening the second half.
OMG yes... and I think you just retriggered some PSTD right there... ;)
And 84? Arrrrgh..,.. I was in that same damned Omni when they lost.... &^%*&-it
 
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UNLV averaged 108 ppg that year and in that particular game every touch foul was being called the entire first half. There was very little physicality allowed, especially compared to what is allowed away from the ball in today's game.
Impossible to compare eras, but I stand by what I said. Games are not played in a vacuum.
Baby Ruth is the greatest baseball player of all time, because he absolutely dominated the competition he was going against at the time. He wouldn't even sniff the field if you teleported him into the present game.
You are smarter than that.
WAY WAY WAYYYYYY off. Talking about 1920s baseball? Come on, man... :rolleyes:

Tommy and Mike were 1st round picks. Walter and Phil were back-to back NBA ROYs... and Phil was widely considered the best PG in the whole damn NBA as a ROOKIE... and ya know who was next ROY after Phil? Magic Johnson... Oh, and some guy named Jordan came along only 4 years after that.

Perspective is in order, brother. It ain't like those guys were playing with peach baskets.

Oh, and I dare say Babe Ruth could hit in any era.
 
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OMG yes... and I think you just retriggered some PSTD right there... ;)
And 84? Arrrrgh..,.. I was in that same damned Omni when they lost.... &^%*&-it
Omg! You were there??? That had to be unbearable to witness in person to say the least. All kidding aside I feel for you Gary. I was 13 years old and I was watching it at a friends house party and I was so upset and mad I couldn’t see straight. The bull**** fouls that were called and then not called was excruciating! When Kenny Smith got hurt against LSU that changed the season. To this day I will never ever pull for LSU or Creighton. Curious to hear what your top three years of us not winning the Title are that haunt you?
 
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Omg! You were there??? That had to be unbearable to witness in person to say the least. All kidding aside I feel for you Gary. I was 13 years old and I was watching it at a friends house party and I was so upset and mad I couldn’t see straight. The bull**** fouls that were called and then not called was excruciating! When Kenny Smith got hurt against LSU that changed the season. To this day I will never ever pull for LSU or Creighton. Curious to hear what your top three years of us not winning the Title are that haunt you?
Yessir, got tickets as a gift, and yeah, watched the thuggery Dakich perpetrated on MJ off the ball with impunity. I really wish Dean had adjusted and swung Michael to the top to iso that jackass. That would've been taking candy from a baby. Bobby gambled that Dean wouldn't, and unfortunately, won.

And yeah, once the Jet had to wear a cast, we just weren't the same juggernaut.
Carolina with a damaged PG is iike Iron Man with a balky arc reactor (geek alert!)...
 
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