Harry Giles with another knee surgery

[DSouthr]

practicing has many varying levels of degrees....he could have been @ practice just working on fts or going through the motions...we dont know....it didnt make sense imo not fully recovered and play @ minimum 2 more games after missing as much time as he did......he gets fully 100% recovered, a degree, start on a masters, and a real shot at title #2........amile is winning

boogie, let me be clear on Jefferson, I don't blame the kid for electing to play more of a full season by taking the medical red shirt, don't blame him at all for not feeling it was worth playing so few games and it be such a shortened senior season for him.

I am just pushing back on this narrative that it was because he could not medically play. Not even saying he was 100%, players play all the time less than 100%, Meeks has been less than 100% for most of the last 2 seasons. The denial that he did not play for purely medical reasons just doesn't fly. When his own team mates state he is going pretty hard in practice then he could have played and likely would have had it been early season as opposed to late season.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Oh ya I had forgotten how the dookies had anointed Amile Jefferson the next coming of Bill Russell. I'm glad I checked this thread so I could relive that comedy.

 

[Calabrias Inferno]

Glad you are not coaching the heels if you are advocating that it is OK to practice a kid that is not healthy enough to play. So tell us, what % was Jefferson recovered at the end of last season, was he 50, 60, 70, was it more or less? K shut him down saying he was not healthy enough to play, not that it would have been a waste to play so few games. Yet you argue that it was a waste to play so few games and yet want to as well say he was not physically able to play?

You do realize that kids are required to go hard in practice and you do realize that kids do get hurt in practice all the time right? It is actually simple, either the duke doctors cleared him for practice or they didn't, I do not think he would have been practicing if he was not medically cleared.

I have no clue what % of his capability Jefferson could play at the end of the season. But if the dude can't get lift off his foot, he might as well be a trimmed-down Sean Obi, which is good for reserving a seat on the bench. He would have had little to no impact on the team. So yes, a waste.

And the idea of practicing and playing are two different things. Someone coming off an injury is brought along slowly - not thrown immediately into the fire. They are evaluated over a period of time to see if they are progressing, which evidently his full-recovery wasn't improving according to schedule.

Not really interested in having a long, drawn-out circuitous argument. You seem like the kind of person that likes to engage in a pissing contest. So I'll let you have the last piss.

 

[GoDukeDevils]

Oh ya I had forgotten how the dookies had anointed Amile Jefferson the next coming of Bill Russell. I'm glad I checked this thread so I could relive that comedy.

Duke fans are certainly excited about having a 5th-year senior who is Duke's best defender and averaged a double-double last year, return to compliment what could be an explosive offense.

 

[dukephysics]

It's even more selfish that K is even thinking about putting Giles back on the court this season. When someone has continuing knee issues it is usually for a reason. If he tries to come back to soon, and six weeks is way too soon, he is just asking for more knee problems. I hate it for the kid. If he is set on playing 1-year in college, than the smart thing would be to take a redshirt year and get healthy. K knows that redshirting Giles would mess up his recruiting for 2017. With Giles coming back, would Carter commit with Bolden and Giles on the roster? I doubt it. K, the Leader of Men, is a selfish Rat and only thinks about himself.

Was the most recent injury a torn ACL - I don't think so. I get the impression is was a minor procedure (thus the 6 week timeline). So the only way K doesn't come off as a selfish rat on this one is if he ensures Giles' knee injury from last fall keeps him off the court for 2 seasons?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ates-on-duke-stars-recovery-from-knee-surgery

 

[tw3301]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nca...-place-to-hide-on-way-to-nba-draft/ar-BBwXiQB

^ Then someone should tell Sporting News because they are reporting that this did occur while he participated in a drill during duke's first official practice...

As for jefferson not fully participating, well according to his team mates he was, maybe someone should have told them what they saw wasn't really what they saw...

Interesting, that wasn't the story I heard but of course I didn't speak to the Duke physician so I probably heard wrong.

 

[DSouthr]

There's usually a thing with insurances called a preexisting condition. You normally have to be 2 years clear of an issue with no treatments. Insurance companies have to make a profit to stay in business.

This is a version of disability insurance and feel free to talk to anyone that sells disability insurance but on this type of transaction any insurer would totally eliminate any pay outs FOR EVER for anything in any way attributed to a knee injury, if they would even consider issuing such coverage to him at all. Very very doubtful they would consider him for any coverage at all because for a basketball player your knees are not just critical but they can as well be associated with feet issues as well as back issues.

 

[Steat]

Was the most recent injury a torn ACL - I don't think so. I get the impression is was a minor procedure (thus the 6 week timeline). So the only way K doesn't come off as a selfish rat on this one is if he ensures Giles' knee injury from last fall keeps him off the court for 2 seasons?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ates-on-duke-stars-recovery-from-knee-surgery

No knee surgery is "minor" when you have already had 2 other knee surgeries before the age of 19. If Giles has another knee injury, make sure you make you set-up his "Go Fund Me" page and you contribute 1-year of your salary. Make sure you make it payroll deduction you generous man.

 

[HeelFan58]

This is a version of disability insurance and feel free to talk to anyone that sells disability insurance but on this type of transaction any insurer would totally eliminate any pay outs FOR EVER for anything in any way attributed to a knee injury, if they would even consider issuing such coverage to him at all. Very very doubtful they would consider him for any coverage at all because for a basketball player your knees are not just critical but they can as well be associated with feet issues as well as back issues.

Yes I know. DI insurance is much tougher to get than life insurance.The average DI company will not cover athletes any way and DI covers lost income and Giles has no income (supposedly). The type of policy that covers amateur athletes would be from a specialized company say Lloyd's of London and they aren't going to cover a guy with his history unless a HUGE lump sum is put down and even then I'm sure there would be a rider.

 

[DSouthr]

I have no clue what % of his capability Jefferson could play at the end of the season. But if the dude can't get lift off his foot, he might as well be a trimmed-down Sean Obi, which is good for reserving a seat on the bench. He would have had little to no impact on the team. So yes, a waste.

And the idea of practicing and playing are two different things. Someone coming off an injury is brought along slowly - not thrown immediately into the fire. They are evaluated over a period of time to see if they are progressing, which evidently his full-recovery wasn't improving according to schedule.

Not really interested in having a long, drawn-out circuitous argument. You seem like the kind of person that likes to engage in a pissing contest. So I'll let you have the last piss.

That is now 2 posts in a row aimed at me that for some reason you feel the need to snipe personally at me? I have been discussing the thread topic, I have not sniped at you personally, can you not afford me the same respect? How is it I have the last piss when you have been the only one pissing? Cut the nonsense and stay on topic or stay out of it entirely.

 

[DSouthr]

No knee surgery is "minor" when you have already had 2 other knee surgeries before the age of 19. If Giles has another knee injury, make sure you make you set-up his "Go Fund Me" page and you contribute 1-year of your salary. Make sure you make it payroll deduction you generous man.

You do know the definition of a minor injury don't ya steat? It is an injury to SOMEONE ELSE! LOL

 

[Steat]

Just talked to my Lloyds of London contact and he told me that Giles would have a hard time getting any insurance. He said Giles best bet is to find several rich people that would be willing to put of the money (Private Placement). For example, Giles convinces a bank to lend him 5M for premiums for a 9-month policy. Twenty (20) people would put up 1M each to provide Giles 20M in coverage. After 9 months, the 20 investors split the 5M ($250,000 each).

 

[dukephysics]

No knee surgery is "minor" when you have already had 2 other knee surgeries before the age of 19.

False. It is possible that this was not a minor surgery. It is also possible that this was just a minor thing - and again, I'm saying that a procedure that has a 6 week timeline on an elite athlete who was already at less than 100% that means the procedure was almost certainly minor. ACL repair = major. Scope to clean up scar tissue (for instance) = not major. Regardless of knee history. And I don't know what was done. I'm claiming it was probably minor, and certainly not worthy of ending a season, based on the timeline info.
Again,
"So the only way K doesn't come off as a selfish rat on this one is if he ensures Giles' knee injury from last fall keeps him off the court for 2 seasons?"
And since I'd like for you to answer my question, I'll respond to your (personal) statement, and I don't think a Go Fund Me is necessary at this time. Could Giles reinjure himself this year and is he taking a huge risk - of course. I think he is well aware of his options and if he decided the risks were too great he would step away. If K then went after him for it, well K would look like a huge asshole. So, Harry ultimately will decide if he plays this year - and I think he certainly will.

 

[Steat]

You do know the definition of a minor injury don't ya steat? It is an injury to SOME ELSE! LOL

LOL...I will donate $1,000 from the Steat Foundation to the first Duke Fan who says "K is selfish" for trying to get Giles to play this season.

 

[Steat]

False. It is possible that this was not a minor surgery. It is also possible that this was just a minor thing - and again, I'm saying that a procedure that has a 6 week timeline on an elite athlete who was already at less than 100% that means the procedure was almost certainly minor. ACL repair = major. Scope to clean up scar tissue (for instance) = not major. Regardless of knee history. And I don't know what was done. I'm claiming it was probably minor, and certainly not worthy of ending a season, based on the timeline info.
Again,
"So the only way K doesn't come off as a selfish rat on this one is if he ensures Giles' knee injury from last fall keeps him off the court for 2 seasons?"
And since I'd like for you to answer my question, I'll respond to your (personal) statement, and I don't think a Go Fund Me is necessary at this time. Could Giles reinjure himself this year and is he taking a huge risk - of course. I think he is well aware of his options and if he decided the risks were too great he would step away. If K then went after him for it, well K would look like a huge asshole. So, Harry ultimately will decide if he plays this year - and I think he certainly will.

There you go again. Can you point out any other 5-star player in NCAA history that has had 3 knee surgeries before playing his first college game? This is unchartered injury territory. You are not an NBA General Manager.....I happen to know one. Giles is taking a big risk by playing but I'm convinced that if K told him not to play this season he would not play. K will never do that because he is too greedy.

 

[HeelFan58]

Just talked to my Lloyds of London contact and he told me that Giles would have a hard time getting any insurance. He said Giles best bet is to find several rich people that would be willing to put of the money (Private Placement). For example, Giles convinces a bank to lend him 5M for premiums for a 9-month policy. Twenty (20) people would put up 1M each to provide Giles 20M in coverage. After 9 months, the 20 investors split the 5M ($250,000 each).

well there's that jeweler who might be interested.

 

[dukephysics]

I can't - you are right this is uncharted territory. Can you name a 5-star player in NCAA history that sat out his freshman year (not played overseas or something) and was still a lottery pick? Giles can certainly hurt his future by being injured again this year - and he can by sitting as well. It is risk/reward. Sitting out won't drop him down like a bad injury, but I think he is betting he stays healthy, listens to his body, and trusts his medical team.
I am not an NBA general manager and don't claim to be. I think everyone is concerned about the two major injuries while he was in high school and the NBA folks will do all their homework in regards to Giles' knees. I just don't see how K FORCING him to sit out this year (and thus, almost certainly reducing his draft stock SOME) because of a less than serious (is that a better word for you than minor) procedure on a knee is the only way to not be selfish here.
Is K selfish - that's possible, we are all selfish to some degree.
Is playing Giles this year (if he agrees to play) selfish - I just don't see that.

 

[topps coach]

I think the kid takes a huge risk coming back this season, said that before news of this latest issue. If he plays before those knees are as sound as they can get,l if he has to have yet another major repair (this scoping seems minor IMO) then it could cost the kid his career. Why not sit out this year, I agree that at this point he may need to play a college season just to show his health can hold up, he can always play for duke the following season.

Personally, I prefer we play and beat teams at their strength, that way no excuses, wouldn't be able to say if we had Giles...

David he had been told by the NBA that he had to show that he

If Jackson starts, and I think he will, Allen will be the SG. I agree with Boogie that he won't be dominating the ball quite as much this year or let's put it this way, he shouldn't be dominating the ball as much. Not sure if his ego will allow him to give the ball up more often, he seemed loath to do so last year. But dook has more weapons this year, so we'll see. I know there are some OAD's coming in who are not going to be happy if he doesn't share the rock.

If I were Giles' parents, I would seriously consider shutting him down for the season and bring him back as a sophomore next year for a year of NBA tryouts.

You do know the definition of a minor injury don't ya steat? It is an injury to SOME ELSE! LOL

stealing my lines again smh

 

[Archer2]

well there's that jeweler who might be interested.

Beat me to it. I'm sure the OOTB could get it done somehow.

 

[DSouthr]

David he had been told by the NBA that he had to show that he


stealing my lines again smh

Nah, just perfecting their usage! LOL

 

[DSouthr]

David he had been told by the NBA that he had to show that he had to pay for his bling rather than try to steal it from a Ny Jeweler?

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Duke fans are certainly excited about having a 5th-year senior who is Duke's best defender and averaged a double-double last year, return to compliment what could be an explosive offense.

As they should be. And he did average a double double last year. In the 9 games he played, all non-conference. Not exactly a representative sample size.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Can you name a 5-star player in NCAA history that sat out his freshman year (not played overseas or something) and was still a lottery pick?

Enes Kanter

 

[Sk1310]

Enes Kanter

Nice

 

[BOOGIEMAN1914]

False. It is possible that this was not a minor surgery. It is also possible that this was just a minor thing - and again, I'm saying that a procedure that has a 6 week timeline on an elite athlete who was already at less than 100% that means the procedure was almost certainly minor. ACL repair = major. Scope to clean up scar tissue (for instance) = not major. Regardless of knee history. And I don't know what was done. I'm claiming it was probably minor, and certainly not worthy of ending a season, based on the timeline info.
Again,
"So the only way K doesn't come off as a selfish rat on this one is if he ensures Giles' knee injury from last fall keeps him off the court for 2 seasons?"
And since I'd like for you to answer my question, I'll respond to your (personal) statement, and I don't think a Go Fund Me is necessary at this time. Could Giles reinjure himself this year and is he taking a huge risk - of course. I think he is well aware of his options and if he decided the risks were too great he would step away. If K then went after him for it, well K would look like a huge asshole. So, Harry ultimately will decide if he plays this year - and I think he certainly will.

per new article today....minor surgery, not structural......clean up on first surgery

 

[dukephysics]

Enes Kanter

I forgot about him.
I don't know - would GMs look at sitting out because the NCAA said you had to be viewed the same as sitting out because you were concerned about reinjury?

 

[Sk1310]

I forgot about him.
I don't know - would GMs look at sitting out because the NCAA said you had to be viewed the same as sitting out because you were concerned about reinjury?

Reinjury is a concern, but it's more what's the point? If he is going to be a top 5 pick regardless, why play?

 

[tw3301]

I forgot about him.
I don't know - would GMs look at sitting out because the NCAA said you had to be viewed the same as sitting out because you were concerned about reinjury?

I think therein lies the problem... I'm not an NBA GM and would never claim to be but I would be a little nervous drafting someone who has 2 serious knee injuries, hasn't played organized ball since his junior year of high school, and sat out his freshman year at college because he was afraid he was going to get injured. I'm sure someone would roll the dice but I'd be leery about signing someone to a guaranteed contract for millions of dollars with all of the above having taken place.

Anyway I hope this is the last injury he sustains, the kid is mega talented and I would absolutely hate for these injuries to derail his dream.

 

[DSouthr]

per new article today....minor surgery, not structural......clean up on first surgery

Boogie or anyone else that would like to discuss "minor surgery" on a knee, have ya ever had surgery on a major joint? Cause if you have that word "minor" would not be tossed around as easily. I had shoulder reconstruction, my buddy topps had major knee reconstruction, while I understand it is not as major as his first time that word "minor" just does not apply in my world anytime a knife has to be used.

Now I realize the world of medicine advances every day and I realize things being done today were not available when I had mine or topps had his. But a knife is still a knife and when it is used to cut something inside the body, that word "minor" no longer allies for me. If something has to be cut out of me or "cleaned up" from inside of me it is a problem that is not good. Now they can such it out, cut it out, laser it out but in the end their doing that means things didn't heal like they wanted it to.

And the question remains, this had to be done after his first duke practice, was not done a few months after the original surgery but was now needed? Sorry but that does not sound good or minor...

 

[DSouthr]

I forgot about him.
I don't know - would GMs look at sitting out because the NCAA said you had to be viewed the same as sitting out because you were concerned about reinjury?

If you a GM, you tell me, kid sits out this season rehabbing from a prior injury so he can be as healthy as possible to play in the NBA for pay? Let's see, risk getting hurt further by playing and risk not playing at my best level and not looking as good to the NBA GMs or come to the pre-draft evaluations camp and show that the joint is as healthy as it can get and back that up with xrays & MRI and being available to the teams doctors to make their own evaluation?

At this point no matter what, come back and play for duke this or next season, the kids stock has already taken a hit, he at this point has already had 3 knee surgerys, he is already some what damaged goods. So much that he is no longer a lotto selection? I doubt it but you never know in things like this, I suspect he would still be a lotto guy because the risk reward for a rookie contract guy is worth it if he can get close to where he was. But it may cost him 1st over all and frankly, he may now not be the best freshman in the ACC, that may now be Issiacs at FSU.

 

[dukephysics]

I have had 1 "major" knee surgery and 2 "minor". I'll put those words in quotes as mine since this seems contentious. The "major" injury was this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osgoo...ia/File:Three_types_of_avulsion_fractures.png
Occurred sophomore year of high school.
The "minor" ones, 1 was removing the screws from the "major" injury and the other removing torn meniscus from the other knee occurred junior year of high school.
The "major" injury took months to fully recover from (to this day my range of motion is not the same in both knees) whereas the minor ones took days or weeks.
I was far from a division 1 level athlete, let alone Harry Giles. I've never torn a ligament. I have had a knee scoped. I'll leave it at, in my experience, I would say there are certainly "minor" knee surgeries compared to other "major" ones. And based on what it sounds like, I would guess Giles is happy that, if he had to have knee surgery, that he had the surgery he just had and not the 2 surgeries prior.
And not trying to argue, but my hope is the best freshman in the conference is named Tatum.

 

[dukephysics]

If you a GM, you tell me, kid sits out this season rehabbing from a prior injury so he can be as healthy as possible to play in the NBA for pay? Let's see, risk getting hurt further by playing and risk not playing at my best level and not looking as good to the NBA GMs or come to the pre-draft evaluations camp and show that the joint is as healthy as it can get and back that up with xrays & MRI and being available to the teams doctors to make their own evaluation?

I don't disagree with you. I don't think a GM would hold sitting out against him if he did it for the right reasons like fully healing from an injury. So long as he could show up for the evaluations and checked out fine.
I'm not making the argument that he should play. My argument here is that K is not selfish if he lets him play. K cannot MAKE him play, so the only option is let him or not. How much flaming would he get if he said "Harry, I know you came here to play, and we said there'd be PT for you and all these other promises, but since you dinged your knee again, we aren't going to let you play, even if you want to." I think some hate K so much that no matter what the situation is, he is a selfish rat. I get it - I feel the same way about some politicians. Just doesn't make it correct.

 

[trestyles]

If you a GM, you tell me, kid sits out this season rehabbing from a prior injury so he can be as healthy as possible to play in the NBA for pay? Let's see, risk getting hurt further by playing and risk not playing at my best level and not looking as good to the NBA GMs or come to the pre-draft evaluations camp and show that the joint is as healthy as it can get and back that up with xrays & MRI and being available to the teams doctors to make their own evaluation?

At this point no matter what, come back and play for duke this or next season, the kids stock has already taken a hit, he at this point has already had 3 knee surgerys, he is already some what damaged goods. So much that he is no longer a lotto selection? I doubt it but you never know in things like this, I suspect he would still be a lotto guy because the risk reward for a rookie contract guy is worth it if he can get close to where he was. But it may cost him 1st over all and frankly, he may now not be the best freshman in the ACC, that may now be Issiacs at FSU.

Sorry I still got Taytum as the best freshman. Hope I'm wrong however, he is wired to score. Lets hope their is some Ego's on the dook team.

 

[mikeirbyusa]

Honestly hope/pray the young man has a speedy/full recovery and has a fine career, EXCEPT against us.

And just for the record, I still hate Duke threads.

 

[soap - new and improved]

I wish Harry a Full and Speedy recovery. But I hope dook stinks and loses every game, despite an amazing recovery for Harry.

 

[dadika13]

Duke fans are certainly excited about having a 5th-year senior who is Duke's best defender and averaged a double-double last year, return to compliment what could be an explosive offense.

Ah, you mean the guy ESPN turned into Hakeem during his injury?

 

[DSouthr]

I don't disagree with you. I don't think a GM would hold sitting out against him if he did it for the right reasons like fully healing from an injury. So long as he could show up for the evaluations and checked out fine.
I'm not making the argument that he should play. My argument here is that K is not selfish if he lets him play. K cannot MAKE him play, so the only option is let him or not. How much flaming would he get if he said "Harry, I know you came here to play, and we said there'd be PT for you and all these other promises, but since you dinged your knee again, we aren't going to let you play, even if you want to." I think some hate K so much that no matter what the situation is, he is a selfish rat. I get it - I feel the same way about some politicians. Just doesn't make it correct.

Well first off, hating K for Tar Heels is not a hard thing to do, dukies hating on Roy does not seem a hard thing for your boys either. That is the nature of the beast, fan is short for fanatic, we prove that daily. Now personally, speaking for only myself, I have not gone K is a rat for forcing Giles to play to soon route. While it is good fodder to take a shot at K with, I have not gone there because it is not the way I see this situation. I fully believe the decision to play will be squarely in Giles hands to make that call and I believe the same as it applies to Jefferson last season. I only pushed back on the narrative that Jefferson could not medically play last season, I think it was his call and he decided he wanted a longer final season and he decided to take the red shirt, and as I have already said, I don't blame him for that.

With Giles it is a much harder decision, his risk is much higher than Jefferson's was, Giles is/was considered to potentially be a number 1 over all pick in a draft. He is 3 different surgeries in now and has had serious procedures now on BOTH knees. One more could not only be career devastation but could impact physically the rest of the kids life. That is a risk the kid is going to have to take no matter if he plays for duke or sits out and enters the next draft. The question is does he take that risk for no pay day or does he take it for a rookie salary cap NBA pay day of a lotto selection? It is a million dollar question and a multi-million dollar risk...

 

[BOOGIEMAN1914]

Boogie or anyone else that would like to discuss "minor surgery" on a knee, have ya ever had surgery on a major joint? Cause if you have that word "minor" would not be tossed around as easily. I had shoulder reconstruction, my buddy topps had major knee reconstruction, while I understand it is not as major as his first time that word "minor" just does not apply in my world anytime a knife has to be used.

Now I realize the world of medicine advances every day and I realize things being done today were not available when I had mine or topps had his. But a knife is still a knife and when it is used to cut something inside the body, that word "minor" no longer allies for me. If something has to be cut out of me or "cleaned up" from inside of me it is a problem that is not good. Now they can such it out, cut it out, laser it out but in the end their doing that means things didn't heal like they wanted it to.

And the question remains, this had to be done after his first duke practice, was not done a few months after the original surgery but was now needed? Sorry but that does not sound good or minor...

my statement was from the article, not of my own....and it was K's who is in conversation with the Duke medical staff....sure that was the language they passed along to him, giles, and his family that is was minor (scope) and not major (structural)

 

[DSouthr]

my statement was from the article, not of my own....and it was K's who is in conversation with the Duke medical staff....sure that was the language they passed along to him, giles, and his family that is was minor (scope) and not major (structural)

OK...

 

[TPFKAPFS]

Anything dealing with surgery on a knee joint IS structural. What could you "scope" that would not effect the integrity or stability of the joint? There are certainly varying levels of structural issues and this procedure is less serious than invasive surgery, but it is disingenuous to claim that a third surgical procedure on a big man's knees before he is 18 years old is "minor."