How Would This Team Be Doing if Roy (or Dean) Held the Reins? What Differences Would We See?

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I don't think anyone disagrees that Hubert has assembled a good collection of talented players. We wouldn't necessarily be this loaded without Hubert. In particular, while we've had plenty of good shooters over the years, it's been a while since we've had this many good shooters at the same time.

And yet we don't seem to be as successful or as gritty or as resilient as some of those less offensively-talented teams.

Is that just the tradeoff? Did we sacrifice other skills for shooting? Are we just slow to adapt - but hang on because we'll get there? Is Hubert struggling?

What would Roy do with this bunch?

What would Dean do?

And if we can point to things that Roy or Dean (or pick another coach, if you wish) would do differently, does that mean Hubert should do those things?

One easy example.... I'm pretty sure Roy would have been going deeper into his bench and giving more PT to those benchers than Hubert has. But would that be better, or just different?

Personally, I'd like to see guys on the bench get more PT because I think it brings guys along better, makes you stronger down the stretch, and might even reveal a diamond in the rough that would never have emerged with less PT.

Not to mention that the portal may beckon to kids who are languishing on the bench. Guys who should get big PT next year, but may get discouraged and mentally pack their bags before next year arrives.

 

[strummingram]

What if...


An exercise in futility. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

What if...


An exercise in futility. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

OK, Debbie Downer.

I thought this would be a fun topic.

 

[strummingram]

OK, Debbie Downer.

I thought this would be a fun topic.

 

[Carolinadude23]

I'll be the first to say it and I'll probably get blasted for saying this, but HD aint the one! He just isn't. PERIOD! Look, I love Hubert.. I really do. He's a Carolina guy to the max! He's a great person and I love that he's trying his best, but just because he's a great guy doesn't make him a great coach! I hope i eat my words in a few months or even a few years but you heard it here first!!

So if I'm right we have to go through 2 years of this crap and lose 2 years of our "basketball lives" until HD's time has elapsed in Chapel Hill and then we have to start all over again.. taking even more time (years) to get solid again (If we make the right hire at that time). So here we go gang. Why Roy would do this to us I just don't know!? He all but hand picked HD! And btw, the assistant coaches who are all very likable and Carolina guys have no business being our assistant coaches. We need far more experience and better coaches on our bench who are teaching our young men every day! All we have on our bench is an assembly of "HD's UNC buddies" All the way around, hiring Hubert Davis was a bad idea in my humble opinion! I sure hope I'm wrong. I hope I am because if HD succeeds, it couldn't happen to a better person. But I'm not wrong.. I just believe HD is over his head. If u needed surgery to fix a major health issue, you wouldn't get the nurse to perform the surgery!!! You get a experienced doctor who's done thousands of procedures and has decades of experience! HD has no business leading this storied basketball program! He just doesn't have the experience. Ask Memphis and UConn how it worked out hiring former players!!?? We should have gotten the most high profile, kick ass coach, in all of basketball to lead the best college basketball program ever. PERIOD.

See you guys in about 2023 or 2024 when this "car crash" finally runs head on into a big tree!!! - Until then... Mediocrity at best...AT BEST!!!!!!

 

[Bubspub88]

Don't necessarily think we'd be undefeated but I damn well know we would not have been that humiliated on national tv twice in a month.

 

[Archer2]

I don’t think things are nearly that dire. Hubert is learning on the fly and “playing with scared money”, as Gary said. The need he feels to win early is I think one reason he hasn’t played the bench a little more. I think he’s learning the difference between coaching the JV team and the Varsity team. He’s a smart guy so I’m guessing he’s going to figure it out In time. I really hope so, couldn’t happen to a better person!

I sometimes wonder if Hubert isn’t trying to befriend the player a little too much, versus mentoring them. I realize the two aren’t mutually exclusive, but selfish/lackadaisical play warrants some really tough love from Hubert. There doesn’t appear to be any natural leaders on this team, therefore it’s the HC’s responsibility to take charge and instill some discipline in this team.

 

[Kerwinwaltonsafro]

Dean would change defenses to suit the roster. With the way we allow guards to penetrate against our Man D, Dean would have already switched to zone.

Roy would have benched players like Garcia for failing to hustle, failing to box out.

 

[DrJaaay]

Dean would change defenses to suit the roster. With the way we allow guards to penetrate against our Man D, Dean would have already switched to zone.

Roy would have benched players like Garcia for failing to hustle, failing to box out.

Would Roy have benched RJ for dribbling all over the court in an effort to jack up crazy shots just to try to prove something to the guy defending him? God, I hope so! Because Hubert dang sure didn't do it.

 

[Bruce Young]

Would Roy have benched RJ for dribbling all over the court in an effort to jack up crazy shots just to try to prove something to the guy defending him? God, I hope so! Because Hubert dang sure didn't do it.

Roy wouldn't have RJ at the Point.

 

[gkss]

Good topic. With Roy, more up tempo and a deeper bench. Practices would probably be more competitive because guys know they are getting minutes. With Coach Smith- a tough one because he is the Best to ever stand on the sideline in College Basketball! With Coach Smith you would see more intensity because they play hard raise their fist, get a blow, and go back in when ready. Offense- discipline, passing, inside presence, and crashing the boards. Defensively- solid help defense and some point zone with some targeted trapping. We would be better- but it’s tough on a new coach with no head coaching experience. But I think Coach Davis is gonna do well. My opinion.

 

[UNC-75]

What if...


An exercise in futility. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Isn't that true of almost all posts on our board we all love so much? I swear most of the time this message board takes the place of any counseling that we need and while it is instant gratification it also doesn't cost as much as a shrink.

 

[gary-7]

Roy wouldn't have RJ at the Point.

I'll take issue only in that Roy did play RJ at point at times, but yes, he did finally settle in on Caleb as the default PG. And I've been pretty candid that what we're doing now at PG is dysfunctional.

 

[gary-7]

Would Roy have benched RJ for dribbling all over the court in an effort to jack up crazy shots just to try to prove something to the guy defending him? God, I hope so! Because Hubert dang sure didn't do it.

Unfortunately, I think a distinction has to be made between the Roy for most of his career and the Roy of the last few years. The former Roy would be drilling their asses off as to Carolina fundamentals on defense, rebounding, running the floor correctly in transition and sharing the ball --- and playing time would be a reward for doing those things right and with effort.

The latter Roy (whether out of frustration or fatigue) frankly got a bit slack with some of those standards, in particular tolerating some guys who were repeat culprits, while not always rewarding those dedicated to doing things right.

At this point, the better comparison is Dean, because watching this team (as well as those of the recent few seasons), there is and has been a SCREAMING need for a full-immersion Carolina Basketball refresher course in TEAM basketball. One reason I hoped Hubert's hire would provide a shot in the arm is that he (and Lebo, who was the most fundamentaly sound freshman I've ever seen here) experienced it. Right now, Hubert would be best served by forgetting he ever played in the NBA and go back to his roots.

 

[jeans1515]

Offensive rebounding would be more important.

Our finesse bigs would be encouraged to run

 

[notashelbyfan]

After this season we will see how good Hubert is at mending fences, because he is going to be doing lots of that trying to keep players from transferring when this one is over.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

After this season we will see how good Hubert is at mending fences, because he is going to be doing lots of that trying to keep players from transferring when this one is over.

Who would you think are them main candidates for the portal?

Are there any we might want to enter the portal - to clear room for someone who fits better or for other reasons?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Offensive rebounding would be more important.

Yeah. I mean we expected our offensive rebounding to drop some, corresponding to our effort to spread the floor more. But not this much.

At the moment, we are 207th in the nation.

For contrast, over the previous 5 seasons, we were in the top 10 all 5 years, and #1 twice.

That's not trivial.

To be fair, when you are hitting your shots better, there are fewer offensive rebounds to grab. If that's most of the reason, I think we can feel OK about that. But if that isn't most of the reason, then what can we do about it? What would Roy or Dean do about it?

 

[Archer2]

Other than the final score, rebounding is the most important stat in basketball. Ergo, why Roy stressed it soooo much.

 

[midline]

I think Roy would indeed produce a better rebounding effort as that was always his big thing. But would there be much difference between what we have seen from the team HD leads this year? Now I love Roy. He saved the program 20 years ago, and gave us three national championships. But sadly, the UNC teams I watched Roy's last 2-3 years tell me there wouldn't be much difference.
Dean? I think you would see more zone to cover up for their inability to stop penetration. And I think Dean would have gotten more of a handle on Anthony two years ago. Love, and to a lesser degree Davis, these days as all sometimes just seem to decide they are going to take the game over and throw up questionable shots. But like Roy, I am not sure Dean would have cared to coach in the current environment we see in college ball these days.

 

[39 Feet Above Sea Level]

Someone on this board (cannot remember who) described our biggest issue: the starters on our team are
auditioning for their future: the NBA, Europe, wherever. They are showcasing their talent in lieu of
playing for one another as a cohesive team. It's not unique in this era. This is modern college basketball, like it or not.
The Heels have five or six top players who believe they will make big dollar$ someday and their focus has shifted
away from the "hard, smart, together" mantra of Carolina basketball.

Roy retired to get away from it.
Dean coached in an era when it wasn't a problem.
Hubert is such a nice guy; it's hard for him to drop the hammer on selfish play. We need to
mix in some zone, some full court press, some defensive adjustments, a deeper rotation to
compete effectively.

 

[Psychward4]

Although prepared, Dean was willing to change the scheme to fit his personnel (he did this midseason in '95-'96 to simplify things for a young team).

Although loyal, Dean was willing to change the personnel to fit his scheme (he did this in late '88 by benching lone senior Ranzino Smith after a bad home loss to Temple, and again in '89 by changing the starting lineup before the ACC Tournament).

Although stubborn, Roy was willing to change the plan to fit the situation (for all his talk about hating to play zone, he switched UNC into a zone defense in the '05 championship game against Illinois when Raymond Felton got into foul trouble).

For all our talk about what "Carolina basketball" is and isn't, the only question is "what works?" And I'm sure Hubert and his staff are pondering, discussing, and debating this constantly. I'm also sure they'll learn from their mistakes.

 

[DrJaaay]

Right now, Hubert would be best served by forgetting he ever played in the NBA and go back to his roots.

Hey Gary ... I agree with your statement, but I think it's a double-edged sword. If we want the highly ranked kids (and I'm not saying that I personally want the highly ranked kids) then I think they are attracted to the NBA style of play. But if we want to see UNC play in the manner of what we call "Carolina basketball" then we need to recruit players that are willing to play that manner of basketball. It's gotta be hard to find highly ranked recruits that are willing to play that way. Tough job for Hubert. Go Heels!!!

 

[gary-7]

Hey Gary ... I agree with your statement, but I think it's a double-edged sword. If we want the highly ranked kids (and I'm not saying that I personally want the highly ranked kids) then I think they are attracted to the NBA style of play. But if we want to see UNC play in the manner of what we call "Carolina basketball" then we need to recruit players that are willing to play that manner of basketball. It's gotta be hard to find highly ranked recruits that are willing to play that way. Tough job for Hubert. Go Heels!!!

Well yes, the way I've always viewed it is that any given OAD-type recruit is expendable if they're not willing to come here to play Carolina ball. But, it's also true that Berry/Pinson/Jackson classes (of HS AAs willing to play the right way) are hard to come by. And BTW, for that reason, when you do ID one of those kids who "fits' here, you go all-in to make sure they come (which yet again points up how big a mark letting Jaden Bradley slip away is gonna leave).

As for the "NBA stuff", our patented transition game is a helluva lot more fun than anything that has to offer. Thing is though, you gotta "earn" transition by defending and rebounding.

 

[DrJaaay]

Well yes, the way I've always viewed it is that any given OAD-type recruit is expendable if they're not willing to come here to play Carolina ball. But, it's also true that Berry/Pinson/Jackson classes (of HS AAs willing to play the right way) are hard to come by. And BTW, for that reason, when you do ID one of those kids who "fits' here, you go all-in to make sure they come (which yet again points up how big a mark letting Jaden Bradley slip away is gonna leave).

As for the "NBA stuff", our patented transition game is a helluva lot more fun than anything that has to offer. Thing is though, you gotta "earn" transition by defending and rebounding.

I remember you making comment about missing out on Jaden. Did we actually "let him slip away" or did he just go elsewhere? Btw, I saw some of Wilcher's HS game the other day ... although he had an impressive stat line, I didn't see "point guard" written all over him. JMO.

 

[DSouthr]

I remember you making comment about missing out on Jaden. Did we actually "let him slip away" or did he just go elsewhere? Btw, I saw some of Wilcher's HS game the other day ... although he had an impressive stat line, I didn't see "point guard" written all over him. JMO.

LOL, yeah, I seem to recall gary having a good opinion of Bradley ? LOL

As I shared with gary during our some what disagreement concerning Bradley and Trimble, Bradley had a committable offer, he didn't take it, Trimble had a committable offer and he did take it. I could not turn Trimble away on the HOPE Bradley in the end would commit to us, I have to take the bird in the hand for that area of need. I think it was clear that Hubert was not going to take 2 Pgs in this class, he had his 1A and 1B first come first serve and Trimble was first one to take the gig.

On Wilcher, yeah, I have not seen a lot of him yet but so far not sure I see PG... But he is a 5 star and most seem to feel he is a 5star PG so clearly they have seen something in his game I have yet to see and wanting to see what they have.

 

[gary-7]

I remember you making comment about missing out on Jaden. Did we actually "let him slip away" or did he just go elsewhere? Btw, I saw some of Wilcher's HS game the other day ... although he had an impressive stat line, I didn't see "point guard" written all over him. JMO.

Yes, we 100% let him slip... twice, in fact.
And your take on Wilcher is 100% correct, IMO.

 

[gary-7]

LOL, yeah, I seem to recall gary having a good opinion of Bradley ? LOL

As I shared with gary during our some what disagreement concerning Bradley and Trimble, Bradley had a committable offer, he didn't take it, Trimble had a committable offer and he did take it. I could not turn Trimble away on the HOPE Bradley in the end would commit to us, I have to take the bird in the hand for that area of need. I think it was clear that Hubert was not going to take 2 Pgs in this class, he had his 1A and 1B first come first serve and Trimble was first one to take the gig.

On Wilcher, yeah, I have not seen a lot of him yet but so far not sure I see PG... But he is a 5 star and most seem to feel he is a 5star PG so clearly they have seen something in his game I have yet to see and wanting to see what they have.

Dave, my brother, that is just not a complete characterization (and trust me as to the accuracy of what I'm saying pertaining to that particular recruitment). It's not that he "didn't take it", it was that we didn't respect his timeline (which he stuck with all the way to the end, BTW), and that we didn't at least show him we were all-in on him once Seth unexpectedly popped.

Secondly (this part is my own evaluation, which I want to make clear is not meant as a slap to Seth), on no planet should these guys have been considered 1A and 1B as to being PGs. Taking off any Carolina-blue glasses. Trimble is a Combo --- a very talented Combo, but a Combo nonetheless --- Jaden is a prototype UNC lead PG who would likely have been destined to be the next #2 jersey in the rafters. He'd be a day-1 starter and the best PG in the program as soon he stepped on campus.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Although prepared, Dean was willing to change the scheme to fit his personnel (he did this midseason in '95-'96 to simplify things for a young team).

Although loyal, Dean was willing to change the personnel to fit his scheme (he did this in late '88 by benching lone senior Ranzino Smith after a bad home loss to Temple, and again in '89 by changing the starting lineup before the ACC Tournament).

Although stubborn, Roy was willing to change the plan to fit the situation (for all his talk about hating to play zone, he switched UNC into a zone defense in the '05 championship game against Illinois when Raymond Felton got into foul trouble).

For all our talk about what "Carolina basketball" is and isn't, the only question is "what works?" And I'm sure Hubert and his staff are pondering, discussing, and debating this constantly. I'm also sure they'll learn from their mistakes.

I appreciate when people give examples. Thanks.

 

[DSouthr]

Dave, my brother, that is just not a complete characterization (and trust me as to the accuracy of what I'm saying pertaining to that particular recruitment). It's not that he "didn't take it", it was that we didn't respect his timeline (which he stuck with all the way to the end, BTW), and that we didn't at least show him we were all-in on him once Seth unexpectedly popped.

Secondly (this part is my own evaluation, which I want to make clear is not meant as a slap to Seth), on no planet should these guys have been considered 1A and 1B as to being PGs. Taking off any Carolina-blue glasses. Trimble is a Combo --- a very talented Combo, but a Combo nonetheless --- Jaden is a prototype UNC lead PG who would likely have been destined to be the next #2 jersey in the rafters. He'd be a day-1 starter and the best PG in the program as soon he stepped on campus.

gary, man, sometimes I just really enjoy arguing with you, I would love to get you in a sports bar one of these days and just go back and forth with ya! It would be a blast and some folks may think we hate each other but I like you a ton! I just don't always agree with ya, I don't always agree with my closest friends. My buddy Ken is a dukie, he absolutely HATES Carolina, we argue constantly, he tried telling me just this morning that GG was going to be a dukie but I love the man like a brother and he is one of the few people on this planet I would gladly take a bullit for.

So OK, we don't agree on this Trimble/Bradley deal, we have already argued it so I would rather not retread that, I do highly respect your position on it and it isn't that I totally disagree with you on this, I just see it a bit different. I have said, I think you will back me up on this, if given the choice between the two I would have taken Bradley because I agree that he was the better fit for us. But I do not believe Hubert was going to take 2 PG in this class so he had a first come first serve offers out to both and Seth jumped first. Seth has all the tools to be an outstanding PG, we will have to see if he has the instincts and ability to accept the coaching.

BTW gary, hope you do realize, the only reason I brought your name in to that reply was just me messing with you all in good fun. I figured we got close to heated about it last time so now maybe we can josh about it in good fun. I was not in any way looking to upset you my friend!

 

[gobblercalls]

Dang, I don't ever want another combo guard! Give me a pure bona fide point guard and a pure bona fide 2 guard and I'll be very happy! And I don't want my 4 to think he's Steph Curry.

 

[CarolinaBlue5]

I remember you making comment about missing out on Jaden. Did we actually "let him slip away" or did he just go elsewhere? Btw, I saw some of Wilcher's HS game the other day ... although he had an impressive stat line, I didn't see "point guard" written all over him. JMO.

Yeah I watched it as well! He’s definitely more of a 2 or a combo guard as they say! I like his game a lot tho but I definitely agree, he’s not a true pg!

 

[TarHeelFanWV]

If we wait too long UNC will be the new Indiana, UConn or NC State.. are those teams relevant anymore? We need to stay on top to keep players interested in coming here.

 

[al would]

Well .. the coaches would be wearing suits .. and those chit shows against KY/TN and a couple others would have had some arses on the bench way sooner than later for PPE (piss poor effort). This collection of players is soft from alpha - zulu. And HD looks lost more often than not.

 

[Old_School59]

I'll be the first to say it and I'll probably get blasted for saying this, but HD aint the one! He just isn't. PERIOD! Look, I love Hubert.. I really do. He's a Carolina guy to the max! He's a great person and I love that he's trying his best, but just because he's a great guy doesn't make him a great coach! I hope i eat my words in a few months or even a few years but you heard it here first!!

So if I'm right we have to go through 2 years of this crap and lose 2 years of our "basketball lives" until HD's time has elapsed in Chapel Hill and then we have to start all over again.. taking even more time (years) to get solid again (If we make the right hire at that time). So here we go gang. Why Roy would do this to us I just don't know!? He all but hand picked HD! And btw, the assistant coaches who are all very likable and Carolina guys have no business being our assistant coaches. We need far more experience and better coaches on our bench who are teaching our young men every day! All we have on our bench is an assembly of "HD's UNC buddies" All the way around, hiring Hubert Davis was a bad idea in my humble opinion! I sure hope I'm wrong. I hope I am because if HD succeeds, it couldn't happen to a better person. But I'm not wrong.. I just believe HD is over his head. If u needed surgery to fix a major health issue, you wouldn't get the nurse to perform the surgery!!! You get a experienced doctor who's done thousands of procedures and has decades of experience! HD has no business leading this storied basketball program! He just doesn't have the experience. Ask Memphis and UConn how it worked out hiring former players!!?? We should have gotten the most high profile, kick ass coach, in all of basketball to lead the best college basketball program ever. PERIOD.

See you guys in about 2023 or 2024 when this "car crash" finally runs head on into a big tree!!! - Until then... Mediocrity at best...AT BEST!!!!!!

I think many agree. I love Hubert as a person. Always will. He represents the school well. He is a polite, respectful, and intelligent young man. But he doesn’t have what it takes to be a HC. Your post should be pinned and let’s see how the next 2 years play out.

 

[heelmanwilm]

Dean woulda had a deeper Rotation and woulda yanked players out of games after the first lazy pass. Blue team woulda seen lots of action. Not saying it would mean more wins but there would be a helluva lot more accountability and maybe more effort. Dean would play scrubs who were diving for loose balls over a lot of these guys.

 

[gary-7]

gary, man, sometimes I just really enjoy arguing with you, I would love to get you in a sports bar one of these days and just go back and forth with ya! It would be a blast and some folks may think we hate each other but I like you a ton! I just don't always agree with ya, I don't always agree with my closest friends. My buddy Ken is a dukie, he absolutely HATES Carolina, we argue constantly, he tried telling me just this morning that GG was going to be a dukie but I love the man like a brother and he is one of the few people on this planet I would gladly take a bullit for.

So OK, we don't agree on this Trimble/Bradley deal, we have already argued it so I would rather not retread that, I do highly respect your position on it and it isn't that I totally disagree with you on this, I just see it a bit different. I have said, I think you will back me up on this, if given the choice between the two I would have taken Bradley because I agree that he was the better fit for us. But I do not believe Hubert was going to take 2 PG in this class so he had a first come first serve offers out to both and Seth jumped first. Seth has all the tools to be an outstanding PG, we will have to see if he has the instincts and ability to accept the coaching.

BTW gary, hope you do realize, the only reason I brought your name in to that reply was just me messing with you all in good fun. I figured we got close to heated about it last time so now maybe we can josh about it in good fun. I was not in any way looking to upset you my friend!

Side note on that subject, what's even more frustrating is that, had we played the cards right, we very well coulda had both...

 

[Archer2]

As for the "NBA stuff", our patented transition game is a helluva lot more fun than anything that has to offer. Thing is though, you gotta "earn" transition by defending and rebounding.

Couldn‘t agree more, and therein lies the problem. My understanding is that Bradley is likely a OAD. If so, I’m glad he isn’t coming. No more OAD PG’s for me.

 

[TarHeelMark]

If we wait too long UNC will be the new Indiana, UConn or NC State.. are those teams relevant anymore? We need to stay on top to keep players interested in coming here.

moo has NEVER been relevant... LOL.

Seriously, they might have been relevant 60 years ago. But they cheated w/ the DT recruitment and got a title from that in '74. Plus the miracle run by Jimmy V almost 40 years ago. Since then they've had something like 3 seasons where they only had single digit losses.

In regards to IU or UConn, I understand the concern there.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Dean would change defenses to suit the roster. With the way we allow guards to penetrate against our Man D, Dean would have already switched to zone.

I've seen zone mentioned a bunch.

Would more zone really fix any of our problems? I'm certainly not opposed to giving zone a try, but I'm picturing RJ and Caleb getting beat by quicker guards and wondering if zone would make any difference.

And wouldn't zone make it easier for teams to beat us from deep? Not that they are facing much resistance now.

I'd appreciate some of our gurus explaining how zone would (or wouldn't) be a good idea.

TIA