My first call for a possible Fedora replacement goes to...

[DSouthr]

I think the best way to generate excitement is to win games. If Fed had strung together back to back double digit win seasons, I think you would have seen the type of enthusiasm that we’re all hoping can surround our program. But one great season is an aberration if it’s preceded and followed by multiple mediocre seasons.

Exactly right arch, fans gets excited over teams that win, our coach could be Joe from Tim-buck-2 and if we win we would call him the greatest to ever coach the game and fans would flock.

I do know this much, the last big time name we got as our head football coach got us a heck of a lot of NCAA scrutiny for over 5yrs that strongly effected BOTH our revenue sports, what is allowed to happen at those SEC programs just will not work here.

 

[midline]

So now we are going with the "everybody cheats and gets away with it but us", analogy. You can see that refrain on every message board that pertains to a program that has a football program that isn't exactly performing to the level the fan base would like. Butch made a mistake. And one that immediately caught the attention of the NCAA. He hired John Blake as an assistant coach. Widely known to be a cheater of the highest order. Now he may not have done one thing wrong at Chapel Hill. But just his mere presence on the staff raised eyebrows as to what may be going on.

 

[tarheel0910]

win, our coach could be Joe from Tim-buck-2 and if we win we would call him the greatest to ever coach the game and fans would flock.

Donors get excited about big names. The average fans like us don't matter when you've got to come up with $12 million to get rid of Fed. Donors that are already pissed about the handling of Brown and Butch just aren't going to write checks like that for the app st coach or someone with a similar resume. Recruits won't be impressed either. Donors and teenagers are the target audience. Average fans don't hold the power like they used to. TV money has limited their impact.

 

[tarheel0910]

So now we are going with the "everybody cheats and gets away with it but us", analogy. You can see that refrain on every message board that pertains to a program that has a football program that isn't exactly performing to the level the fan base would like. Butch made a mistake. And one that immediately caught the attention of the NCAA. He hired John Blake as an assistant coach. Widely known to be a cheater of the highest order. Now he may not have done one thing wrong at Chapel Hill. But just his mere presence on the staff raised eyebrows as to what may be going on.

Yep, hiring Blake was a bad move. I know they had a history, but he ended up dooming Butch.

 

[WoadBlue]

Yep, hiring Blake was a bad move. I know they had a history, but he ended up dooming Butch.

It was a terrible hire by Butch, and it was one based on bleeding heart.

Butch met Blake when he was in 7th or 8th grade. Blake's father has always seen Butch as a mentor for his son. What I see in John Blake is that he went to OU, under Switzer, who was as dirty as any coach in the history of the game. And Blake became one of Switzer's all time favorite pets. BNefore Blake went tothe Cowboys, there was much talk from rivals that he was a dirty recruiter.

Switzer promoted Blake and covered up for him. And Blake always had Butch to call on.

Butch assumed that he could trust Blake. But just as you cannot trust a junkie not to steal from you, you cannot trust a Barry Switzer pet not to be a dirty recruiter.

 

[Xlance]

I'm not in the camp that we MUST get a big name guy, but I wouldn't be opposed to Chizik or Stoops. More than anything, I want to trust in Bubba, and I HOPE he can make the right hire when that time comes.

Bubba needs to go too.
He was supposed to be a marketing genius that could fill the stands. Since he arrived our attendance stinks. His solution this year: If I attend 5 of 6 games, I get a discount on Tar Heel merchandise.

 

[tarheel0910]

Bubba needs to go too.
He was supposed to be a marketing genius that could fill the stands. Since he arrived our attendance stinks. His solution this year: If I attend 5 of 6 games, I get a discount on Tar Heel merchandise.

You're clueless.

 

[WoadBlue]

You're clueless.

I think XLance is wrong about Jeff Moncken. Tar Heels fans will not be excited to have a triple option coach, which means even if we start averaging 9 wins per year, attendance problems will remain.

But XLance is correct that the measures to improve attendance under Bubba have not worked and will not work.

Even when we were coming off an 11 win season, we had growing attendance issues. One obvious fact from that is: even when Fedora wins in double digits (which at UNC is no more than once every 8 years), he does not excite and inspire UNC fans.

The take away? Fedora must be replaced, properly, with the right guy, for anything else to work toward improving attendance.

 

[tarheel0910]

I think XLance is wrong about Jeff Moncken. Tar Heels fans will not be excited to have a triple option coach, which means even if we start averaging 9 wins per year, attendance problems will remain.

But XLance is correct that the measures to improve attendance under Bubba have not worked and will not work.

Even when we were coming off an 11 win season, we had growing attendance issues. One obvious fact from that is: even when Fedora wins in double digits (which at UNC is no more than once every 8 years), he does not excite and inspire UNC fans.

The take away? Fedora must be replaced, properly, with the right guy, for anything else to work toward improving attendance.

I'm not saying he's wrong about attendance. It's about all his other takes. Hiring Moncken, firing Bubba, saying the school doesn't care about sports, etc. Those are all ignorant statements at best.

 

[Xlance]

I'm not saying he's wrong about attendance. It's about all his other takes. Hiring Moncken, firing Bubba, saying the school doesn't care about sports, etc. Those are all ignorant statements at best.

I have never said that Carolina does not care about sports.

I happen to like triple option football, it's OK if you do not. Monken is a very high character guy, who teaches fundamentals, gets maximum effort out of his players (Army just took #5 Oklahoma to overtime in Norman) and has spent his career up and down the east coast (Georgia Southern Georgia Tech, Navy,West Point).
I keep reading on this board that our hands are tied re: recruiting. If that is true, the triple option is a strategy for competing on the field with available players. If we are not restricted by the administration and are just victims of a bad coach and ineffective recruiting strategies I am fine to go in another direction as long as we can win consistently.

Bubba? Can you name at least three things that are better about Carolina football/athletics in general that have improved since Bubba arrived?

 

[WoadBlue]

I have never said that Carolina does not care about sports.

I happen to like triple option football, it's OK if you do not. Monken is a very high character guy, who teaches fundamentals, gets maximum effort out of his players (Army just took #5 Oklahoma to overtime in Norman) and has spent his career up and down the east coast (Georgia Southern Georgia Tech, Navy,West Point).
I keep reading on this board that our hands are tied re: recruiting. If that is true, the triple option is a strategy for competing on the field with available players. If we are not restricted by the administration and are just victims of a bad coach and ineffective recruiting strategies I am fine to go in another direction as long as we can win consistently.

Bubba? Can you name at least three things that are better about Carolina football/athletics in general that have improved since Bubba arrived?

I was there for the heady days of the 1970s when at some it seemed like at least 75% of the teams were playing either the Wishbone or the option Veer or the option I. DCs began to catch up, and offenses changed.

If you have the right coach, you can win with the wishbone. But I have doubts that any wishbone program can win a National Championship or even win a Power conference regularly - the Bone means that many guys go elsewhere. The talent you can get into a triple option program is limited.

 

[tarheel0910]

I have never said that Carolina does not care about sports.

You're right. I was confusing you with another poster. My apologies.

I happen to like triple option football, it's OK if you do not.

The vast majority of football fan bases don't like it. That's the problem. If you want butts in the seat and top recruits you can't run the option.

Monken is a very high character guy, who teaches fundamentals, gets maximum effort out of his players

I'm sure we can find another coach that does the same.

I am fine to go in another direction as long as we can win consistently.

GT is the only P5 team to run it and they don't win consistently. Johnson's record isn't much better than Fed at the P5 level.

Bubba? Can you name at least three things that are better about Carolina football/athletics in general that have improved since Bubba arrived?

You mean besides the improved facilities, uptick in donations and telling the NCAA to mind their business?

 

[WoadBlue]

The vast majority of football fan bases don't like it {the wishbone}. That's the problem. If you want butts in the seat and top recruits you can't run the option.

That's true. I've said that all along about GT. PJ running his flexbone and winning, say, 9 games for 3 straight years would sell many fewer tickets than would a GT team with the same record that averages 35 passes per game.

I liked having Butch, but I said the same about his offense: he must restructure it to pass more to maximize ticket sales. When he hired Fedora, I said that if he turned his spread more to the Rich Rodriguez style of QB running the ball as first option, we'd lose fans, but that if he'd restructure his offense to Mike Leach style of pass-1st spread, we'd sell more tickets and excite more general fans.

 

[Xlance]

That's true. I've said that all along about GT. PJ running his flexbone and winning, say, 9 games for 3 straight years would sell many fewer tickets than would a GT team with the same record that averages 35 passes per game.

I liked having Butch, but I said the same about his offense: he must restructure it to pass more to maximize ticket sales. When he hired Fedora, I said that if he turned his spread more to the Rich Rodriguez style of QB running the ball as first option, we'd lose fans, but that if he'd restructure his offense to Mike Leach style of pass-1st spread, we'd sell more tickets and excite more general fans.

When Dooley was running a winged-I (one wingback, 1 tailback, 1 fullback, quarterback under center), the Heels only passed 8-12 times per game. But I did see McCauley run for 1720 yards one season. Then there was Famous Amos, Boom-Boom Betterson, Tyrone Anthony, Mike Voight, Ike Oglesby, Ethan Horton and Kelvin Bryant too. Have you ever heard of any of those guys?
I don't know what you characters want in a football team, but you couldn't do any better than watching those Tar Heels run the football.
You want fans in the stands? Give 'em some REAL football. Hard nosed running and great defense.
After a few more games with Larry this year you will be ready to call Jeff Monken.

 

[tarheel0910]

When Dooley was running a winged-I (one wingback, 1 tailback, 1 fullback, quarterback under center), the Heels only passed 8-12 times per game. But I did see McCauley run for 1720 yards one season. Then there was Famous Amos, Boom-Boom Betterson, Tyrone Anthony, Mike Voight, Ike Oglesby, Ethan Horton and Kelvin Bryant too. Have you ever heard of any of those guys?
I don't know what you characters want in a football team, but you couldn't do any better than watching those Tar Heels run the football.
You want fans in the stands? Give 'em some REAL football. Hard nosed running and great defense.
After a few more games with Larry this year you will be ready to call Jeff Monken.

Seriously? Those guys have been out of football for more than a generation. GT fans don't even like that type of football. Things change. There's a reason they don't make black and white movies anymore. And there won't be more than 1-2 people that want you to come.

 

[Archer2]

Seriously? Those guys have been out of football for more than a generation. GT fans don't even like that type of football. Things change. There's a reason they don't make black and white movies anymore. And there won't be more than 1-2 people that want you to come.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you? I'm asking because it helps to decipher where posters are coming from. I get the impression you're in your twenties. Am I wrong?

I always try to guess how old someone is by their posts. I believe the old adage that "with age comes wisdom". That doesn't mean that young posters can't provide wisdom. But life experience provides an ability to make more informed decisions.

 

[tarheel0910]

Just out of curiosity, how old are you? I'm asking because it helps to decipher where posters are coming from. I get the impression you're in your twenties. Am I wrong?

I always try to guess how old someone is by their posts. I believe the old adage that "with age comes wisdom". That doesn't mean that young posters can't provide wisdom. But life experience provides an ability to make more informed decisions.

34. I'm just looking at the facts man. Everything I said is factual except for the number of people who might want him as a coach. I'm pretty sure I will be accurate about that though.

 

[Xlance]

Just out of curiosity, how old are you? I'm asking because it helps to decipher where posters are coming from. I get the impression you're in your twenties. Am I wrong?

I always try to guess how old someone is by their posts. I believe the old adage that "with age comes wisdom". That doesn't mean that young posters can't provide wisdom. But life experience provides an ability to make more informed decisions.

BTW Archer2, I'm a '71 graduate and haven't missed a home football game in Kenan in 50 years.

 

[Archer2]

Wow, you never know until you ask.

 

[WoadBlue]

Wow, you never know until you ask.

XLance is ancient, as am I. We were around for great UNC RBs and OLs and Ds.

 

[tarheel0910]

Wow, you never know until you ask.

Not sure what the wow is for.

XLance is ancient, as am I. We were around for great UNC RBs and OLs and Ds.

We've had plenty of good RBs, OLs and Ds more recently than the ones he posted. You don't have to run an out of date offense to have those things.

 

[TarHeelMark]

I fall between you two guys, age wise and the last thing I want to see is triple option (or some variation) at UNC. I hate that crap GT runs, even if they have been a little more consistent than the Heels.

 

[riverswe]

Got to agree. Reminds me of the Duke posts in another thread. GT and Duke (with Cut) seem to have a ceiling of 7 or 8 wins. Right now that looks really good but we need a higher ceiling. I believe you need to run some type of spread to have a higher ceiling - unless you have an exceptional D.

 

[Xlance]

XLance is ancient, as am I. We were around for great UNC RBs and OLs and Ds.

I am almost ancient Woad.
I am also a 40+ year member of the Rams Club

I think XLance is wrong about Jeff Moncken. Tar Heels fans will not be excited to have a triple option coach, which means even if we start averaging 9 wins per year, attendance problems will remain.

But XLance is correct that the measures to improve attendance under Bubba have not worked and will not work.

Even when we were coming off an 11 win season, we had growing attendance issues. One obvious fact from that is: even when Fedora wins in double digits (which at UNC is no more than once every 8 years), he does not excite and inspire UNC fans.

The take away? Fedora must be replaced, properly, with the right guy, for anything else to work toward improving attendance.

Woad our attendance problems started with the "equity seating plan".
In an attempt stimulate Rams Club contributions the ESP was born. Up until then as long as you renewed your season tickets, you could keep the same seats. When the plan started, the best seats were sold off to those with the most points. Many of the best seats were legacy seats, second generation holders living off of first generation contributions

Got to agree. Reminds me of the Duke posts in another thread. GT and Duke (with Cut) seem to have a ceiling of 7 or 8 wins. Right now that looks really good but we need a higher ceiling. I believe you need to run some type of spread to have a higher ceiling - unless you have an exceptional D.

I don't post on this board very often as my interests are mainly focused on realignment. But I do see people talk about the "recruiting restrictions" that we have to deal with.
We could have had a national championship caliber program with Butch Davis. Because of "circumstances" we will not have that opportunity for quite some time. The PTB will only allow minimal acceptance of folks that don't fit our admissions profile. This is not a unique problem in the ACC. Duke, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, Boston College and UVa all have the same problem. Notre Dame does too, but their status in football allows them to recruit on a different level (similar to what we can do in basketball) than other academically restricted football programs.
Realistically our ceiling is 7-9 games. Bubba has attempted to get us there by dumbing down our schedule and hiring a coach to play gimmick football.
What we need is our own David Cutcliff or Dave Clawson who can take less than elite players and develop a team. Over a period of time their success will allow them to recruit better and better players (see Duke).
Consistent success with a competitive schedule will put people in the stands.
There is no quick fix or magic bullet, we would have to open the gate and lower the bar to get those players in immediately and we just can't recruit that way under the current circumstances. And you will not get elite players until you can prove success (see Clemson).
We will need someone who has ties our recruiting area that can talk like the high school coaches and players in a voice that is not foreign (Dabo) to start to rebuild recruiting relationships.
Bubba's experiment has cost us the last 7 years plus at least another 4-6 more even after a good hire.

 

[truetarheelraider0806]

Butch Jones from what I was told as inquired about the job. And it would seem behind scenes at least donors and big money are listening to his pitch, and are interested. But he's mistake was trusting Blake Anderson. He did elicite excitement from the fsne base, he was a tireless promoter for the football program. Going as far as to go door to door to generate fan support

 

[Xlance]

Butch Jones from what I was told as inquired about the job. And it would seem behind scenes at least donors and big money are listening to his pitch, and are interested. But he's mistake was trusting Blake Anderson. He did elicite excitement from the fsne base, he was a tireless promoter for the football program. Going as far as to go door to door to generate fan support

I think Satterfield would be a perfect hire. Local, established recruiting relationships, proven success......but
I have a friend that has a business relationship with Satterfield's dad in Hillsborough (it was Hillsboro when I was in school). The dad says that Scott is happy in Boone and doesn't want the "politics" of a bigger time job or maybe he meant the ultra left-wing politics that is now found in Chapel Hill.

 

[truetarheelraider0806]

I think Satterfield would be a perfect hire. Local, established recruiting relationships, proven success......but
I have a friend that has a business relationship with Satterfield's dad in Hillsborough (it was Hillsboro when I was in school). The dad says that Scott is happy in Boone and doesn't want the "politics" of a bigger time job or maybe he meant the ultra left-wing politics that is now found in Chapel Hill.

As a conservative independent it is hard to visit chapel Hill now. They are not very accepting of your views if you disagree with them. Some even look down their collective noses with a look of disdain, and bless his heart he is so stupid... We are supposed to go to late night again this yr I am not so sure now. The last couple of times I have been it has not been as pleasent an experience as I had hoped, or was accustomed too

 

[WoadBlue]

I am almost ancient Woad.
I am also a 40+ year member of the Rams Club



Woad our attendance problems started with the "equity seating plan".
In an attempt stimulate Rams Club contributions the ESP was born. Up until then as long as you renewed your season tickets, you could keep the same seats. When the plan started, the best seats were sold off to those with the most points. Many of the best seats were legacy seats, second generation holders living off of first generation contributions



I don't post on this board very often as my interests are mainly focused on realignment. But I do see people talk about the "recruiting restrictions" that we have to deal with.
We could have had a national championship caliber program with Butch Davis. Because of "circumstances" we will not have that opportunity for quite some time. The PTB will only allow minimal acceptance of folks that don't fit our admissions profile. This is not a unique problem in the ACC. Duke, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest, Boston College and UVa all have the same problem. Notre Dame does too, but their status in football allows them to recruit on a different level (similar to what we can do in basketball) than other academically restricted football programs.
Realistically our ceiling is 7-9 games. Bubba has attempted to get us there by dumbing down our schedule and hiring a coach to play gimmick football.
What we need is our own David Cutcliff or Dave Clawson who can take less than elite players and develop a team. Over a period of time their success will allow them to recruit better and better players (see Duke).
Consistent success with a competitive schedule will put people in the stands.
There is no quick fix or magic bullet, we would have to open the gate and lower the bar to get those players in immediately and we just can't recruit that way under the current circumstances. And you will not get elite players until you can prove success (see Clemson).
We will need someone who has ties our recruiting area that can talk like the high school coaches and players in a voice that is not foreign (Dabo) to start to rebuild recruiting relationships.
Bubba's experiment has cost us the last 7 years plus at least another 4-6 more even after a good hire.

It is amazing how virtually 100% of bright new ideas to make improvements without doing the old fashioned, roll up the sleeves hard work cause at least as much trouble as they solve. That is as true of sports as politics and economics, etc. And it probably is more true of pedagogy than anything else.

I think many people today think I am making up wild tales when I talk about football tickets for Dook at Kenan being a premium. In '83, for example, Dook had a star QB, Ben Bennett, and was bowl quality. You couldn't buy a ticket from anyone for less than double the sticker. The atmosphere was electric.

I agree that UNC football being what it is based on its history means that we cannot expect a coach to come in and start signing classes ranked Top 10 nationally. We require a coach who can win with less overall talent, who can spot unheralded and late developing talent, and can develop players. That requires a coach who can make adjustments.

Fedora is none of that. He is the very antithesis of making adjustments.

When such a coach produces back to back to back teams that win at least 9 games, then he should be able to make huge inroads in signing a couple of 5*s and some high 4*s. And that is the final talent boost that gets a program to playoff level.

I agree about schedules. Those in charge have gone with endless ECUs and Cals. I say that the goal should be to play 1 'name' OOC team in Kenan every year. That means playing 2 such schools per year. Balance that with a 1AA (might as well make it a North Carolina team most years) and a historically lower ranked Group of 5 team.

 

[riverswe]

I believe woad hit the nail on the head with the back to back to back 9 win seasons statement. This is more indicative of progress than one good season sandwiched between decent or bad seasons. That's why the ending to 16 is the worst thing that's happened in my mind. We had momentum, had lots of talent and we simply fell apart down the stretch. Had we beaten State, Duhren would have been fired and possibly they aren't kicking our butt on in state recruiting now. But we had an excuse - Mac got hurt and we didn't have a deep threat anymore.

 

[tarheel0910]

Butch Jones from what I was told as inquired about the job. And it would seem behind scenes at least donors and big money are listening to his pitch, and are interested. But he's mistake was trusting Blake Anderson. He did elicite excitement from the fsne base, he was a tireless promoter for the football program. Going as far as to go door to door to generate fan support

I'm confused. Are you talking about Butch Jones or Butch Davis?

 

[truetarheelraider0806]

I'm confused. Are you talking about Butch Jones or Butch Davis?

Sorry that should have said Butch Davis you're right

 

[tarheel0910]

Sorry that should have said Butch Davis you're right

That's what I was thinking. Jones would be a hard pass for me. I would love to see Davis back, but I don't think the administration has the stomach for the PR problem that would be.

 

[truetarheelraider0806]

That's what I was thinking. Jones would be a hard pass for me. I would love to see Davis back, but I don't think the administration has the stomach for the PR problem that would be.

I can tell you that they are listening and it's because Butch Davis had the place at least half way full most games

 

[tarheel0910]

I can tell you that they are listening and it's because Butch Davis had the place at least half way full most games

I hope your right. I wasn't a fan of firing him. The whining and complaining from moo fans would be worth hiring him again. Their heads would explode.

 

[truetarheelraider0806]

I hope your right. I wasn't a fan of firing him. The whining and complaining from moo fans would be worth hiring him again. Their heads would explode.

One thing is for sure he would lock down the state of North Carolina and recruiting. He did that last time. He was a Mainstay in Jacksonville North Carolina. Dante Paige Moss was not coming to Chapel Hill if not for him

 

[TVJ]

We'll never know, but I still think that if Holden Thorp had listened to Butch when Butch said, "Let us handle it" we might have avoided much, maybe most of the mess that ensued. And Butch had to have learned his lesson r: Blake. I realize there are many opposed to bringing Butch back, but we could do worse!

 

[TarHeelMark]

...we could do worse!

Sadly, we usually do.

 

[Archer2]

Sadly, we usually do.

 

[WoadBlue]

We'll never know, but I still think that if Holden Thorp had listened to Butch when Butch said, "Let us handle it" we might have avoided much, maybe most of the mess that ensued. And Butch had to have learned his lesson r: Blake. I realize there are many opposed to bringing Butch back, but we could do worse!

No way Holden was going to do that. And the reason is obvious: Holden knew far more about ugly messes than Butch did because Holden was the boy wonder Dean of Arts&Sciences who got promoted. The AFAM mess under Dean Thorp. Also, A&S had 100% control of tutoring, which means all problems there also were under Thorp.

He chose to make sports generally, football specifically, the fall guy to cover for himself.

 

[Xlance]

No way Holden was going to do that. And the reason is obvious: Holden knew far more about ugly messes than Butch did because Holden was the boy wonder Dean of Arts&Sciences who got promoted. The AFAM mess under Dean Thorp. Also, A&S had 100% control of tutoring, which means all problems there also were under Thorp.

He chose to make sports generally, football specifically, the fall guy to cover for himself.

Sad but true.
Holden cost us 7 years of misery.