But that error should be due to not being in the proper position to make the call or just seeing a play incorrectly, not due to some preconceived notion that one team is better defensively. That should not impact the call. Period.
NBA analying foul call errors
- Thread starter northfan
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Great post. This states my sentiment on this subject exactly. I tend to agree fully with the people outlining the poor officiating, but the game is gone and it ain't coming back. And I don't even know how any comments here can impact the future. I wish they could, but reality is they really can't. So, "we shall overcome" as Dave stated, has to be the mindset, IMO.
I'll tell you how we effect that change, Dave. By complaining about the sorry state of officiating until referees are held accountable. By sitting down and analyzing tape of every game and pointing out every missed call, made or unmade. And by strictly grading every official and letting them know in no uncertain terms that incompetence will result in termination.
I'm held to that standard at work, as are most people. When people err, as all humans do, you point out their errors and expect them to correct them. If they continue to make more than a reasonable number of mistakes, you fire them.
Surely we can all agree that officiating has gotten worse and worse. Incompetence is the new norm. So address it! Don't just dismiss it as human error.
I will not argue that at all, totally agree, the standard should be higher than it is. But fussing about it for how long now, not just that one game and yet the only change I see is for the worse, not for the better. It is a battle that should be engaged for sure but we are not the ones with the ability to fight it.
The concern I have with this being obsessed over to the extent that it is, we can be seen like those we do not like. We beat NC State and their fans scream bloody murder and how they were cheated, how do we look at them when they do that? Has Ky ever lost a game that they were not cheated out of by the refs? I understand many of those non-UNC fans saw it and realized the game was called strange but those folks are not still talking about it, unless they are laughing about it.
For a few years now I have taken the path that I do not like to talk about the refs in a negative way if it is a game we do not win, I talk about it more in games that we still actually win. I don't want to be one of those fans and do not really want to see our fan base be considered the same way that NC State fan base is. If we lose, I take it and move on, if we win then I don't mind talking about the refs.
Understood, and I'm not one to dwell on officiating as a rule. The last time I was close to this incensed about officiating was the UNC vs dook game in Chapel Hill when Scrub Zero hit the winning basket.
I go on many sports and political chat boards in my journeys around the internet and one thing I know is when ever improprieties/violations come up in college sports the vitriol from people all across the country is turned against UNC even when UNC was not the original topic. It even comes from fans of the most blatant money changing hands cheaters in college sports. It is like a feeding frenzy so it is amazing that a certain group of "know it alls" on this board think that all NCAA officials are bias free. Is it naivete or ignorance?. I am not even saying it's so but anybody who thinks it's not highly possible , well I'll leave it at that.
Billy, you flat said on this board (in a thread on the subject) that Theo should start in the backcourt with Paige when Marcus returned and Berry should go to the bench. As for Britt, I don't bad-mouth him, I call it like it is.
And the only thing embarrassing about biased refs are the biased refs. Again, if you actually believe Michael Stephens calls it straight in Carolina games, then I've got some nice unicorns I'll sell ya cheap (pay no attention to the glue on the horns)....
Ha! No, Dave... unfortunately they're not, BUT the only way change is effected in these things is if enough noise is made.
A couple of examples:
- Back in the late 70s or early 80s there was so much noise about officiating that they actually brought in neutral (from another conference, back when they were pretty much conference-exclusive) zebras for the ACC Tourney.
- Dean Smith making huge amounts of noise (and copious videotape) caused a directive to certain league zebras to stop calling MJ for travelling when he wasn't (cough, cough, Lenny Wirtz, cough)
Moreover, a national conversation about "physical" play supposedly caused some alterations in foul calls this season (but we saw how long that lasted --- at least they took a shot). My proposal (which was used very successfully in a HS conference tourney when I was coaching) is that the coaches not only have some input on who the good zebras are but also have a limited number of "strikes" to keep certain refs away from their games. That could easily work in the NCAA Tourney for example. As it stands now the NCAA compiles a pool of zebras for the Tourney, and each coach could have 2 anonymous strikes. I can guarantee ya, if we had that this time Roy wouldn't have let Stephens anywhere near that championship game.
Agreed, Gary. Ignoring incompetence doesn't do a thing to make it go away. It will only continue to get worse. And if you can't complain about incompetent officiating in the title game, when can you complain?
And then you get posts like this:
"Blaming the officiating for the loss is different though. I just know how i feel when a team we beat blames the refs. I think they're a bunch of ignorant whiney assed sore losers blindedby fanhood.If thats how u want to be known then by all means knocknyourselves the eff out."
Isn't it ironic that those protesting the loudest about fans criticizing the refs in the national title game are the same ones who overreact after a relatively meaningless game during the season and so harshly criticize our staff and players? Talk about being "whiney assed sore losers"!
And then you get posts like this:
"Blaming the officiating for the loss is different though. I just know how i feel when a team we beat blames the refs. I think they're a bunch of ignorant whiney assed sore losers blindedby fanhood.If thats how u want to be known then by all means knocknyourselves the eff out."
Isn't it ironic that those protesting the loudest about fans criticizing the refs in the national title game are the same ones who overreact after a relatively meaningless game during the season and so harshly criticize our staff and players? Talk about being "whiney assed sore losers"!
You're gonna haveta find that post for me . .
I know you call like it ain't.
Placing Stilman White ahead of Britt on your PG depth list is what you posted, and not one other poster on the board would agree with you, because its likely one of the dumbest things I've seen posted here on Radar. Stilman got only mop-up minutes this past year, and barring 2 or 3 injuries, nothing will change that next season . .
You called it alright, let me know if you wanna back that call with some money. I doubt you will . .
@Archer2 or anyone else . .
When was the last time we beat a team that shot 58.3% for the entire game . . ?
If, we have never accomplished that mighty task, it really wasn't very likely gonna happen on Championship night. So bitching about the refs gifting a game to 'Nova with an additional 4 fouls called on us really does make some look like "a bunch of ignorant whiney assed sore losers."
Howz the weather over in Rawlee, wuffpecker fans . . ?
No heel, what we "know it alls" are saying is that its highly unlikely that an ncaa official would risk his reputation, job, ridicule, as well as the credibility of the ncaa tourney to intentionally make a team lose in a title game over some personal bias against said team.
Actually "know it all" is not an accurate description of someone who thinks this way. "Knows some sense" fits much better.
I'm sure you can find that post yourself. You made it, bubba. Someone started a thread on what should happen when Marcus returned and you clearly expressed your preference --- to be more specific, someone posted in the thread that Berry should go to the bench and you heartily agreed. My response to that notion was that it "would be a mistake of biblical proportions".
As for my preference for Stilman at backup PG, that is my preference and I stand by it. I liked Nate better as a backup 2 (and that's where he spent most of his minutes as it turned out). There's a difference between a preference and saying what Roy will do --- that part is speculation. On that note, Roy said at a press conference during the tourney that Stilman is likely to play a lot more this coming season --- maybe he will or maybe he won't, but I would like to see it. Whether Roy ends actually up doing that is speculation at this point.
As far as calling it as it is, show me something I've ever said about Nate's game that is unfair or incorrect.
Wow, you really hurt my feelings with that one. Looks like I hit a little close to home, eh Billy? Cue the JCD'ing by the OOTB clique.
Oh please. When's the last time a college basketball official lost his reputation or his job because of making incorrect calls, regardless of how many? Has this ever happened? There is no accountability, that's the problem.
Well noones ever lost his reputation or job over THROWING AN NCAA TITLE GAME CAUSE NONE OF THEM ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO DO IT.
Problem was/is those guys apparently knew what they were doing and did not care... Hicks got hosed on every call but ONE...! Take away what you wish to take away from that game.....
Come on man, use your brain. That's like saying no player has ever fixed a sporting event because none of them are stupid enough to do it. We know that has happened numerous times in baseball, basketball, and boxing.
Personally, I don't believe there was a conspiracy to fix the game. I do believe we ran into a particular ref who intentionally short changed us. You don't. Fine. I'm not going to debate it with you any longer because your deleted post shows you can't debate anything without resorting to childish behavior. At least you had the good sense to delete it, or perhaps the mods did.
You and Billy post on OOTB, in the name of open debate, which you claim can't be had here. But when you get it, you resort to name calling when you can't defend your positions with logic. At least Billy tried to do so before he felt obliged to defend you. I respect him for that. I have lost any vestige of respect that I had for you.
You have to take the extreme and in doing so step on your own argument?
With all the money involved in a big game, there is always a concern that the game can be altered, it has happened in multiple sports, to suggest no one would risk this ignors the proof positive that it has happened. Maybe no one has been caught doing it in a NCAAT title game but that does not mean the potential for it is not there.
heelmanwilm and his grand pa billylib have always lacked that common sense gene I guess it's a family trait.
I guess the NBA ref who got caught was an isolated incident? I seriously doubt if anything was going on in the NCAA they would even have the sense to uncover it. Let me say (before you get your panties in a wad) I'm not saying it has happened but to say unequivocally that it is not happening or cannot is just utterly lacking any thought process what so ever.
HMW needs absolutely no one to defend him . . IMO, he's already won this thread, and anything else he posts here will be just a victory lap.
No you did not, so sorry to disappoint.
OOTB clique . . ? Well Scott, there are about 25+ of us OOTBers that post on almost a daily basis, and I'd say theres plenty of disagreement to be had over there amongst the 25, and that almost daily.
Do any of you conspiracy theorists want me to call Brad Meltzer and ask him to decode all this high level conspiracy at the NCAA . . ? Who knows, you nutcases might just end up on TV . .
You just did that work for me . . Stilman > Nate. I'm am still LOLLERing over that premise. Oh, now itsa personal preference . . ? One more opportunity, and please put your money where your mouth is . . c'mon you can do it.
You couldn't find that post to quote me . . why am I not surprised.
MooFan58 . .
Grand pa billylib . . ? You mean I'm like Dean Smith . . ? Well, thank you, sir. I'll gladly take that honor. I'll even point to you for that awesome assist. keep up the good work there, young lad.
I know Tim Donaghy was caught. Unless there were others, then yes, it seems it was an isolated incident . .
Who were the others . . ?
It's a shame when a supposedly grown man can't figure out on his own that a few calls from a ref can change the way both teams have to play an entire game. How much has to change to make a 3 pt difference in a game. If the game had been called fairly would they have shot 58%...probably not. Would we have shot 42%? Most likely not! Were we hosed by the refs. Absolutely. Was it intentional? We may never know but the man's history of calling our games in the past says it most likely was. I have no idea what was intentional or what was not. What I do know is that I watched the game and the whole game calls were being made against us, and it was enough calls to make a big difference in the final score.
Pete Rose wasn't stupid enough to bet on baseball...until he got caught doing it. Nixon wasn't stupid enough to bug hotel rooms...until he got caught doing it. Donaghy wasn't stupid enough to be involved in gambling on NBA basketball until he was caught at it. Your naivety is somewhat surprising.
I never said or implied "unequivocally". Can u read? I said "highly unlikely". Can u comprehend the difference? Maybe u should google those big words before u use them. Guess you're uttlerly lacking any reading skills whatsoever. Lol.
Here's what you said.... "THROWING AN NCAA TITLE GAME CAUSE NONE OF THEM ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO DO IT."
I find it even a bigger shame that grown men are complaining about the refs' performance when maybe, we should be looking at our own performance. We had a 5 point lead at half (thanks refs) and our squad shot poorly in the 2nd half.
Meeks, Britt, Berry, and Jackson went 1 of 13 in the second half. We're not going to outscore a team that shot 58% while we're shooting 34%. (effing refs)
How the refs call a game is always a guess, whether it be tight with not a lot of contact -or- loosely officiated and 'letting them play' . . coaches and players learn to adjust, it was no one's first rodeo here. Nothing happened differently that night that wasn't seen all season long or for that matter over the course of a player's college career.
Because others have done it, these refs followed in their footsteps . . ? Then, how many of our Wins were gifted to us by the dirty refs this season . . ? Take a guess please . .
Meeks, Britt, Berry, and Jackson went 1 of 13 in the second half. We're not going to outscore a team that shot 58% while we're shooting 34%. (effing refs)
How the refs call a game is always a guess, whether it be tight with not a lot of contact -or- loosely officiated and 'letting them play' . . coaches and players learn to adjust, it was no one's first rodeo here. Nothing happened differently that night that wasn't seen all season long or for that matter over the course of a player's college career.
Because others have done it, these refs followed in their footsteps . . ? Then, how many of our Wins were gifted to us by the dirty refs this season . . ? Take a guess please . .
Certainly the potential is there. yes it has happened to some degree in rare occurrences in other sports. However The evidence, as well as common fking sense, doesnt support it happened here. Fwiw i'm familiar with your stance on the game as a whole and the officiating's role and we're in agreement.
And the vast majority are open-minded. One needs only go to the basketball thread to see that there are 2 or 3 of you who think you're smarter and more realistic than everyone else and you seem to think it's your duty to set us straight. Your arrogance is unnecessary and unwarranted. Time to put you and HMW on ignore, long overdue in fact. I encourage you to do the same to me. That way future interactions can be avoided. I doubt you'll do it though because you two appear to enjoy stirring the pot.
Wrong post dude. Heres the "unequivocal" and totally outrageous, naive, claim that is so offensive
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"No heel, what we "know it alls" are saying is that its highly unlikely that an ncaa official would risk his reputation, job, ridicule, as well as the credibility of the ncaa tourney to intentionally make a team lose in a title game over some personal bias against said team"
Crazy shit huh? Guess i shoulda taken my meds before posting.
Oh so we "stir the pot" eh? Gmafb. Let me tell u what "stirs the pot".
Claiming the ncaa rigged the tourney seedings to screw usnover "stirs the pot"
Claiming the ncaa got even with us and threw the game "stirs the pot "
Claiming an official threw the game out if bias against us or to win a bet "stirs the pot"
So spare us your bullshyt righteous indignation over our defending rational logic thought in the face of absurd idiotic "pot stirring".
And Dude i dont give a rats ASS if an anonymous message board poster "respects" me or not. If u measure respect by a persons stance on officiating then you're a sad lot indeed. Please do ignore me. I'll wear that and your "disrespect" as a badge of honor. I wont ignore u though. I need the laughs and i LOVE clowns.
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I agree with this^
And this^
But ultimately - I think we all believe this^ (or at least I hope so). So therefore, yes - there is the possibility to rig games, but if no one thought it happened here, then why debate it? Did the reffing suck? Ya - it always does. Were there calls that screwed UNC? Ya. Were there calls that screwed Nova? Ya. Were there probably slightly more bad calls against UNC? Ya. But that crap happens. Even if it was slightly more beneficial to Nova - a lot of you are doing it an injustice implying that UNC got "completely hosed". Or as CH said, Hicks got hosed on every call but one. I love a conspiracy theory as much as the next guy - but that statement right there makes you sound like a Moo fan.
But how many baseball players have done that in the history of baseball? There have probably been millions of players play baseball over the years and the fact that there have only been a small handful to do that proves that it's almost non existent. Same thing applies for other sports as well. Is it theoretically possible that players/refs do that? Yes, but there are some posters that at least imply it happens a lot and more specifically happens to UNC more than any other team.
Ha! Get over yourself, Billy. I didn't bother to try to find your quote because I have better things to do and I remember it vividly. Oh, it's out there though. You're the one who conveniently forgets.
And again --- once more for the dense ---I stand by my assessment of Stilman, and yes it is and was my preference. There's nothing to put money on nor does any of your fatuous bluster change that.
Any similarity between you and Dean Smith is in your mind only. Dean had other good qualities and I'm still looking for those in you.
Ha! Get over yourself, Billy. I didn't bother to try to find your quote because I have better things to do and I remember it vividly. Oh, it's out there though. You're the one who conveniently forgets.
And again --- once more for the dense ---I stand by my assessment of Stilman, and yes it is and was my preference. There's nothing to put money on nor does any of your fatuous bluster change that.
Its real easy to find posts gary. So put your money where your mouth is. You claim he posted it. He denies it. So prove it.
I'll go ahead and agree with him. No one should have to be alone in this world.
LMFAO. my reading comprehension? You said "NONE" it doesn't get more unequivocal than that or do you have trouble understanding the little words too? Also for the record I have never said it was a conspiracy. Bias is not a conspiracy and many would not even admit to a bias but it's there none the less.
Uhhh this is what i said. Maybe i typed too fast. It was a response to YOUR OWN POST. heh heh
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I go on many sports and political chat boards in my journeys around the internet and one thing I know is when ever improprieties/violations come up in college sports the vitriol from people all across the country is turned against UNC even when UNC was not the original topic. It even comes from fans of the most blatant money changing hands cheaters in college sports. It is like a feeding frenzy so it is amazing that a certain group of "know it alls" on this board think that all NCAA officials are bias free. Is it naivete or ignorance?. I am not even saying it's so but anybody who thinks it's not highly possible , well I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...
No heel, what we "know it alls" are saying is that its highly unlikely that an ncaa official would risk his reputation, job, ridicule, as well as the credibility of the ncaa tourney to intentionally make a team lose in a title game over some personal bias against said team.
Actually "know it all" is not an accurate description of someone who thinks this way. "Knows some sense" fits much better.
91 Yesterday at 10:03 PM
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