U know he looked for it. he really wants us to think he knows its there but wont post it. As if he would pass on the chance to prove billy wrong. Heh heh.
NBA analying foul call errors
- Thread starter northfan
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U know he looked for it. he really wants us to think he knows its there but wont post it. As if he would pass on the chance to prove billy wrong. Heh heh.
Just a guy who can smell a bs'er a mile away. I'll leave being a complete nut sack to you.Are you a professional dick, or just do it for a hobby?
@BillyL sort of went there in the first page. He usually gets there first for stuff like this. I was going to say something, but thought he'd do a better job than me anyway.
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Weak sauce... especially coming from someone who can't even smell a Secondary Break.
You mean the person who had to diagram how it's run for you?Weak sauce... especially coming from someone who can't even smell a Secondary Break.
WHAT??? Good Lord. Talk about your BS-ers! For the record you harped on two highlight passes by Marcus on senior night and you claimed he was playing PG in a half-court offense when in fact they both came in Secondary Breaks when he was playing the 2. I even GIFed it for you and broke it down by the damned numbers (literally) and you still didn't (or wouldn't) get it.
And worse, all this BS is coming from the blowhard who posted that I wouldn't acknowledge your (erroneous) position if "Marcus Paige himself" came up and told me. Yeah?... well, hold that thought.
Turns out Roy was later asked about those exact plays in a press conference by a reporter pursuing the silly notion of Marcus playing PG when Berry was on the floor. Roy was having none of it, and quickly reminded him that the plays in question were in fact Secondary Breaks (as I tried to tell you). But Roy (clearly annoyed) went further, rhetorically querying the reporter if he even knew what position Marcus was playing there... and then Roy very pointedly answered his own question by saying "he was playing the 2". So will you acknowledge you were flat wrong now that Roy Williams himself has said so? Sadly I doubt it.
Game. Set. Match.
QFT
They were secondary break points with Marcus playing off guard. Roy said as much. Some of you guys love to argue with Gary, he is very opinionated and direct. But he knows more about the X's and O's of basketball than 99% of the posters here.
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Just out of curiosity, who would those posters be? I've never been in a clique before, so if I am one of them maybe I can put it on my resume.
They love you on DI. Of course, they love any Heel fan who will show up to talk trash about other Heel fans. Judging from your posts there and on OOTB, you are a charter member. Since you seem to dislike the lack of discourse here, perhaps it would be less painful for you if you confined your posts to those two boards. I hate for you to suffer unnecessarily.
No I said he was running point on that play. Go back and look at it. Just because his position is 2 doesn't mean he doesn't run a play as point when a situation calls for it. I'm afraid you don't understand the game as much as you let on. I'd hate to see you coaching kids. It would be a disaster.
And it is a fact he did run point at times when Joel was in. It may not always have been by design, but he did do that. I never have been advocating anyone else run the point full-time except Joel. So you fail again.
And your breakdown was incorrect re my original post in that thread. You just saying it's wrong a bunch doesn't make it so. Sorry you are wrong. Again. Roy Williams wasn't answering any question I asked him, that's for sure. Maybe you can ask Roy for me, since you think you got it like that.
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Uh, no stooge #2, he does not. He's just spews more bs and uses ambiguous language more than anyone here cares to do.
Please, you used to hang there and buddy up with them. You'd even get upset when another Heel fan trolled them a little. You are the last one that should be saying a thing. Yeah, you despise them now because they hurt your feelings.
Funny how u can quote coach williams when u think it benefits u. But when he says point blank, no room for interpretation, no gray area, that " jj should have gone stronger to the hole" then oh hell no! then u claim he meant something else or couldnt say what he really wanted to say or some sort of crap. Evidently the key to knowing if coach really means what he says is if he agrees with u.
Game
Set
Match
Start the bus
Cue the fat lady
Yes he certainly seems to think so! Lol. But in all truth archer when it comes to posting on message boards, and this applies to me as much as anyone, noone knows jack over anyone else. To me hes an anonymous poster that for all i know is a twelve year old girl. Noone's right or wrong. Its just opinion. And gary's carries no more weight than mine or yours or billy's despite his best efforts to convince us otherwise.
Hope you're having a great sunday
And that that he couldn't remember how that play went at the end of the half.
My breakdown of that Secondary Break was 100% correct.
And Roy was answering a question at a presser that happened to have been about that exact play where the questioner was incorrectly using it as an example of Marcus playing the 1, and Roy very pointedly set him straight.
I've made no statements about your opinion of JB --- don't recall that coming up in our exchanges (?) --- but make no mistake, Marcus only played PG this season when he was in the game with Nate, and then not til later in the regular season (and for the record, I always advocated that he play the 1 when in with Nate). Marcus did not play PG at all when in the game with JB --- he was strictly at the 2. Every single minute JB spent on the floor this season --- no matter with whom --- was at the 1. And again, Roy has specifically addressed those facts as well.
In Secondary Break situations either the 1, 2 or 3 man can have the ball at the top in transition and the other two non-post guys fill in the outside lanes accordingly. Simply having the ball at the point does not mean he is playing the 1 (nor does getting the ball there in a called iso play, BTW).
Look, other than being fans of the team, it;s obvious you and I don't see eye to eye, and that's fine. You don't like my style, and the feeling is mutual, and that's fine too. I have no further interest in arguing. You are more than entitled to your opinion, but to claim I don't know the nuances of the Carolina transition game is just plain silly.
Yeah, opinions are opinions, but when the dispute is over facts then what carries weight are facts, which in this case --- like it or not --- are on my side... and oh, since some of you questioned my memory, here's the link to Billy agreeing that Berry should to go to the bench when Marcus returned.
https://northcarolina.forums.rivals.com/threads/who-goes-to-the-bench.22202/#post-273005
My breakdown was 100% correct. There is no disputing that. Trying to say it was not would make you a liar.
Paige himself said he was more comfortable at the point. I agree with him. He knows himself better than you. That doesn't mean I think it should be done at the expense of Joel's role. However there were times they both were in the game and Marcus happened to start the offense as the point. And because our offense is designed the way it is, our guards have the freedom to do this. You are wrong about the secondary break. Yes you can have multiple ball handlers. But depending on where they are someone is at the point on the break. Many times that was Marcus. That doesn't mean Roy had him in the game as the point. That is just part of the fluidity of the break and it's designed that way.
And you are right, you and I won't see eye-to-eye about much because I despise people who don't believe they can be wrong and have no humility. It's an ugly character flaw you have that amplifies every time you open your trap.
Uh, was Billy's opinion on who should start where when Marcus returned a question in this thread? And if so did Billy disagree he said that? If not, then there you go again. What is in question is you putting words in heelmans mouth and then running away when asked to provide proof. Back up what you say with relevant links to that conversation or shut up.Yeah, opinions are opinions, but when the dispute is over facts then what carries weight are facts, which in this case --- like it or not --- are on my side... and oh, since some of you questioned my memory, here's the link to Billy agreeing that Berry should to go to the bench when Marcus returned.
https://northcarolina.forums.rivals.com/threads/who-goes-to-the-bench.22202/#post-273005
And speaking of facts and memory, here is you on the end of the 1st half of the championship game.
And here is my reply.
And of course since opinions are just opinions, except when it's your opinion, you followed up with this.
Wtf? "That momentum had a lot of help." No it didn't. That's a fact. The video replay shows it. He never had a knee in his back and never was driven into the cheerleaders, a lie that you stated.
Yeah, opinions are opinions, but when the dispute is over facts then what carries weight are facts, which in this case --- like it or not --- are on my side... and oh, since some of you questioned my memory, here's the link to Billy agreeing that Berry should to go to the bench when Marcus returned.
https://northcarolina.forums.rivals.com/threads/who-goes-to-the-bench.22202/#post-273005
So, I agreed with Keyser that we both speculated that Roy might move Berry, and start both Theo and Marcus after just 6 games . . ?
After 3 years of Paige playing PG, he also being a pre-season fist team All-America choice and his natural lifelong playing position, that was somehow railing against Joel . . ? GMAFB
I've given nothing but, props to Joel Berry this past year. Go read some of the game threads there, Einstein.
UNC'92 is absolutely correct here :
Though Paige said that midway+ through the season, I do remember chiming in and agreeing on the subject.
As a pure matter of fact, though I did not want to reveal my source at that time, what Marcus was feeling was more accurately said by a family member that had been posting on another site's premium board. Thats right, a family member(believed to be a cousin of his btw) had conveyed the exact same. That poster also said that MP would do anything and everything for his team, even if it meant giving up his natural position, because that was the type of person Marcus was.(pay a little more for some premium info, and you might learn a lot more than just what your AAU buddies tell you.)
FTR, I have also said that if Roy had been able to successfully recruit a solid 2 guard, and Lord knows he tried to(I'll list the many numerous offers to SGs if you need me to) then I'd speculate even further that indeed Paige would have been our starter at the point, and I still believe that to this day. Unable to secure that 2G, lead Roy to moving MP over to that position and nothing more. Maybe, you actually believe that Roy recruited Paige to play the 2 spot his senior year . . ?
No doubt in mind that MP is smarter than JB, his academic accolades show us that. I also believe he is a quicker, faster and more athletic player than Joel . . did you see his 39.5" vertical at the NBA combine . . ?
Anyways, congratulations for finally finding that 1 word post of mine from 6 months back(LOL) and do please consider this a 2 word post from me to you.
Did yall know that there have been a couple of groin kicks that occurred in NBA play off games over the last couple days? Didn't this thread start as a discussion of the NBA re-viewing stuff like that.
Now granted, I am not above hi-jacking a thread and it does seem as thou this thread had morphed in to it's own version of virtual groin kicks, maybe we should ask who reviews those?
Point is, you guys are grown men and I get that you are heated with each other but isn't it getting about to the point that someone has to be the better man and kinda get past this? Best I can tell this is what you guys are argueing over...
1) Gary says Joel was the PG when he was in the game last season and I agree.
2) 92 says Marcus was lead guard on a coupe break ops, well yeah kinda, on a break pretty much the lead is who has the ball. Roy prefers 2 guys that can play the point on the floor together for just this reason. But understand, when things settle down you do not have 2 PGs, you have one and yeah that was Joel when he was in games last season. But on breaks it was both guys that took that role, so both side are kinda right, thou gary does point out that any of guys 1-3 can facillitate on the breaks and that is how our primary and secondary breaks are designed.
3) Wilman says Jackson had no "help" in missing that lay up just before the half in the Natty game, says he saw slow mo replay that proved it. Everything I saw indicated that JJ got hit with the body and knocked off balance causing him to miss the shot, that is a foul, that was the way I saw it but maybe I didn't see the replay wilman saw. When you are driving like that it does not take much of a bump at all to knock you off balance, a slight nudge can do that on a play like that.
My point is there are elements of right and wrong in everyone's positions best I can tell and at points it appears there is argument over making the very same point, to the extent if it were noon and one said the sun was up one would argue that it isn't because eclipses do happen?
I do not understand this need to gang up on gary, the guy is very opiniated and stands staunchly by his opinions but those that do not like him because of that are no different, they staunchly stand by their opinions as well and find it near impossible to consider he could be right in what he is saying. You guys do not have to like gary and he does not need to like you, you do not need to like or agree with me either by the way, but all of you claim to be Tar Heel fans and a certain level of respect should be shown to Tar Heels that is not being shown.
If you have points to discuss then discuss them but how about you guys cut out the silly nonsense and show some respect. Grown men calling each other names like school yard children is dis-respectful to not only the posters engaged in this but to everyone else here as well, Recess is over...
Now granted, I am not above hi-jacking a thread and it does seem as thou this thread had morphed in to it's own version of virtual groin kicks, maybe we should ask who reviews those?
Point is, you guys are grown men and I get that you are heated with each other but isn't it getting about to the point that someone has to be the better man and kinda get past this? Best I can tell this is what you guys are argueing over...
1) Gary says Joel was the PG when he was in the game last season and I agree.
2) 92 says Marcus was lead guard on a coupe break ops, well yeah kinda, on a break pretty much the lead is who has the ball. Roy prefers 2 guys that can play the point on the floor together for just this reason. But understand, when things settle down you do not have 2 PGs, you have one and yeah that was Joel when he was in games last season. But on breaks it was both guys that took that role, so both side are kinda right, thou gary does point out that any of guys 1-3 can facillitate on the breaks and that is how our primary and secondary breaks are designed.
3) Wilman says Jackson had no "help" in missing that lay up just before the half in the Natty game, says he saw slow mo replay that proved it. Everything I saw indicated that JJ got hit with the body and knocked off balance causing him to miss the shot, that is a foul, that was the way I saw it but maybe I didn't see the replay wilman saw. When you are driving like that it does not take much of a bump at all to knock you off balance, a slight nudge can do that on a play like that.
My point is there are elements of right and wrong in everyone's positions best I can tell and at points it appears there is argument over making the very same point, to the extent if it were noon and one said the sun was up one would argue that it isn't because eclipses do happen?
I do not understand this need to gang up on gary, the guy is very opiniated and stands staunchly by his opinions but those that do not like him because of that are no different, they staunchly stand by their opinions as well and find it near impossible to consider he could be right in what he is saying. You guys do not have to like gary and he does not need to like you, you do not need to like or agree with me either by the way, but all of you claim to be Tar Heel fans and a certain level of respect should be shown to Tar Heels that is not being shown.
If you have points to discuss then discuss them but how about you guys cut out the silly nonsense and show some respect. Grown men calling each other names like school yard children is dis-respectful to not only the posters engaged in this but to everyone else here as well, Recess is over...
Billy, not to take a side in this, I think everyone knows and agrees that marcus preferred to play the PG position, felt that was not only his natural position but his future NBA position as well. Yes of course he did what he had to do for his team, that is what marcus is all about. I doubt gary argued counter to that. In the NBA marcus position is as a PG but in the college game, I have said this many times, Marcus was a combo and Joel Berry is not. Marcus fit the 2 guard position much better than Joel did, Marcus needed the room and focus to find his shot, JB is much more a facillitator by nature.
The question of who was the PG was better asked of Marcus's freshman season, who was the PG then, was it Marcus or was it Dexter because that was much harder to see. Truth is who the PG was never got consistent, iut was Dexter as much as it was marcus in his freshman season.
To suggest Marcus is a better PG just because of what marcus did in the class room confuses me, Steve hale may have been one of the most gifted in the class room players we have ever had, did that make Steve Hale a better PG than ED Cota, who struggled in the classroom? Nate Britt may be the fastest player we had last season with the dribble, he was not close to being our best PG. More athletic, great verticle, and a history of being a great shooter, that was marcus was it not, those traits more often describe a great talented 2 guard than a PG. Marcus was a college combo guard and in the NBA his position will be PG, 2 guard was his natural college position and the only season he played most at the 2 in his Tar Heel career we got to the Natty game, got to the natty game with Joel berry as our primary PG. Can't argue the results and the results are in the history books.
By the way, you mentioned that Roy was not able to successfully recruit a 2 guard, have you heard of kenny Williams, do ya kow he was a freshman last season, did ya know he actually is a successfully recruited 2 guard?
1) Gary says Joel was the PG when he was in the game last season and I agree.
I don't think that is being disputed. Not by me anyway. I haven't seen someone say Joel was not the point. But I don't read everything on this board either. Where Joel plays on the floor isn't news and we don't need Gary to tell us that.
2) 92 says Marcus was lead guard on a coupe break ops, well yeah kinda, on a break pretty much the lead is who has the ball. Roy prefers 2 guys that can play the point on the floor together for just this reason. But understand, when things settle down you do not have 2 PGs, you have one and yeah that was Joel when he was in games last season. But on breaks it was both guys that took that role, so both side are kinda right, thou gary does point out that any of guys 1-3 can facillitate on the breaks and that is how our primary and secondary breaks are designed.
Not "well yeah kind of", he was at the point on breaks at times. I don't think when play settles in that we have 2 guys running the point. Not sure how that came up. I was the first one to point out in the original thread over this that 3 can facilitate on breaks. It's part of the secondary break that is run by more than just Carolina now.
3) Wilman says Jackson had no "help" in missing that lay up just before the half in the Natty game, says he saw slow mo replay that proved it. Everything I saw indicated that JJ got hit with the body and knocked off balance causing him to miss the shot, that is a foul, that was the way I saw it but maybe I didn't see the replay wilman saw. When you are driving like that it does not take much of a bump at all to knock you off balance, a slight nudge can do that on a play like that.
This one I agree with how you are putting it. He did get hit with the body while he was in the air. But a lot of times that's not going to get called because he wasn't strong with the finish. Had JJ come to a jump stop, #3 would have needed steps to get off JJs back and a foul most certainly would have been called. Gary's characterization was his usual over-the-top (or lying) way of trying to argue his point which could have been made by saying what you just said.
Gary gets ganged up on because he can't disagree without trying to insult you. Maybe he doesn't do that to you, but if you are saying he doesn't do it to others then you need to read a little closer. He gets what he deserves. I have had numerous disagreements with folks here and usually it doesn't turn out the way it does with him. I don't feel bad about going after him every time he winds up on people.
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Roy didn't really win that recruiting battle remember? Shaka won it while at VCU.
Sometimes you just have to take people as they are. For example, there is not a more cantankerous so & so on this board than Billy but I like Billy. I like him cause I understand him now, and I know, that is just Billy being Billy. Heck MUCH worse than Billy and gary is no where close is a buddy of mine that used to post a lot that went by UVaheel. That dude would argue with a tree, he argued cause he just loved to argue, he loved to get things as heated as he could. MIkey knows him and I love the guy, at first I hated his guts but then I got to know him and finally figured it out, that was just UVaheel being who he is, so all I did was let him be who he is and all the sudden I found a new friend.
Man, gary is who gary is, accept him for what he is, he is a coach, how many coaches ya ever met that admitted to being wrong about anything? LOL
You get upset with him when he does exactly what you expect him to do, a dog will piss in the house if you do not let him out, don't get mad at the poor dog, get mad at yourself for not letting him out. Sometimes it is better for a man to accept what he can not change and move onward...
By the way, on Kenny, Roy got Kenny, Shaka didn't, Shaka may have won the early battle for Kenny, Roy won the war.
Oh by the way, I see a lot of insults that are aimed at gary on just this page of this 5 page thread. So maybe he started it, does that really matter? If he is wrong by insulting you does that made it any more right for you to keep the insults flowing? You can quickly become that which you dislike is my point...
David,
Yes, I am aware of KW being a 2G . . he wasn't one of Roy's first choices though. Roy was looking for a 5 star player. Kenny was ranked as the #25 SG in his class.
Don't get me wrong, I love Kenny and believe that he'll be a good player by his junior/senior year. Heck, he may blow up this upcoming season. He just wasn't the elite prospect that Roy was seeking.
IMO, Marcus was more of a scoring PG than a combo guard.
Yes, I am aware of KW being a 2G . . he wasn't one of Roy's first choices though. Roy was looking for a 5 star player. Kenny was ranked as the #25 SG in his class.
Don't get me wrong, I love Kenny and believe that he'll be a good player by his junior/senior year. Heck, he may blow up this upcoming season. He just wasn't the elite prospect that Roy was seeking.
IMO, Marcus was more of a scoring PG than a combo guard.
I won't agree with taking Gary as he is. I don't have to accept his abrasive way. I have been coaching my sons AAU teams (THB in Florida) since he was in 4th grade. I know plenty of coaches that will admit when they are wrong. I know many that won't. I only know a few that are asses on the level of Gary. I don't accept their abrasive ways and comments either. And I'm sorry, @BillyL may get mean sometimes, but from what I can tell he is a better person than Gary. I know that may be different for some people.
I do like your characterization of Kenny's recruitment. That's my new take on it from now on.
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Yeah, opinions are opinions, but when the dispute is over facts then what carries weight are facts, which in this case --- like it or not --- are on my side... and oh, since some of you questioned my memory, here's the link to Billy agreeing that Berry should to go to the bench when Marcus returned.
https://northcarolina.forums.rivals.com/threads/who-goes-to-the-bench.22202/#post-273005
Wow talk about delusions of grandeur! Lemme let u in on a secret. EVERYONE thinks the weight of the facts are on their side. You're no more right than anyone else. And in this case, you've been owned by your own "facts". The link doesnt say what u claim it does re billy and coach williams direct quote disputes your claim about JJ. So you're 0-2 in the past five posts using the "weight of the facts". Except in your mind of course.
I get what you are saying, the difference is I don't do that to just about everyone else.
You shouldn't be . . not one bit.
Threads morph into an entirely different discussion all too frequently.
And IMO Marcus was a combo guard in college best suited for the 2 but that is OK, that is my opinion and you shared yours, I am not going to be convinced other wise nor do I think I will convince you other wise and that is not a problem because 2 people can see the same thing and yet see it in different ways.
FYI, Roy wanted Kenny even before he originally committed to Shaka, you can't look at where Kenny was ranked, he was an emerging guy as opposed to a guy that had been established since his freshman season. Sometimes folks don't understand, these kids can find their games at different times. Some that really find their game late in their high school careers will not be as highly rated by the experts, look at Brice for example, many Tar Heel fans saw him as a guy we settled for because we had limited options left to us, I am kinda glad we got him even if it was a settle for. Point being, a kid that can play now is a kid that can play now, who cares what he used to do except for the guru's pimping their expert recruiting stuff. Jordan was not even the highest ranked recruit in the state but there was not a better player in the country in that recruiting class. I am not saying kenny is Jordan, what I am saying is he is a much better player than his ranking in that class indicated him to be and Roy loves the kid's game.
So let's get this straight, shall we:
I break down a play 100% correctly, player by player, identifying it as a Secondary Break when Marcus was playing the 2.
Then later that week Roy Williams himself references the exact same play, identifying it as a Secondary Break when Marcus was playing the 2.
And yet you say I'm wrong about the Secondary Break (which BTW you denied that it even was til just now)?
Moreover, now you're changing your damned story and saying "That doesn't mean Roy had him in the game as the point". Well duh... that is EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell you.
Good grief.
Y'know, at this point the only thing I want to know is how's the weather in the world you live in?
But then, whatever the weather is I'm sure you'd argue with it... and THAT is an ugly character flaw.
Your whole statement is incorrect. My breakdown of the play was the correct breakdown, the break was over. I have never said anything different here and Roy did not reference that play.So let's get this straight, shall we:
I break down a play 100% correctly, player by player, identifying it as a Secondary Break when Marcus was playing the 2.
Then later that week Roy Williams himself references the exact same play, identifying it as a Secondary Break when Marcus was playing the 2.
And yet you say I'm wrong about the Secondary Break (which BTW you denied that it even was til just now)?
Moreover, now you're changing your damned story and saying "That doesn't mean Roy had him in the game as the point". Well duh... that is EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell you.
Good grief.
Y'know, at this point the only thing I want to know is how's the weather in the world you live in?
But then, whatever the weather is I'm sure you'd argue with it... and THAT is an ugly character flaw.
My post here in regards to the secondary break is referencing that I diagramed how it works. Because that was what was asked in that original post. You diagramed how you saw that play, which was wrong. And it's all in that thread for everyone to see. You putting words in my mouth now and trying to confuse the issue here versus what was stated in that thread won't work.
Regarding Marcus at the point, you have moved the goal posts again. I said Marcus should play some point. I also said Marcus runs the point on the break at times, even when Berry is in. Where did I ever say different? I didn't, but you say I did and in your world that's good enough for you.
So now that you have got that straight, let's get to the reason you were called out for the millionth time for more of your bs. Quote the post that backs up what you say @heelmanwilm said. If you cannot we can assume that you lied, again. Don't veer, swerve or dodge. Just quote the post or shut up.
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