I'm fully aware of the fact that there is much more to the universe than what humans can detect with our extremely limited senses. But that isn't a good reason to believe in mythology.
No Hell below us... above us, only Sky! There is no Hell- Bible says so!
- Thread starter strummingram
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I'm fully aware of the fact that there is much more to the universe than what humans can detect with our extremely limited senses. But that isn't a good reason to believe in mythology.
Honestly its a bit difficult not to insult any adult who seriously believes in this stuff. Its astonishing to me. Some people are just really good at suspending their disbelief I guess.
No it isn't. If you think that its some tiny minority of christian parents teach their children about the concept of hell, and that they will be headed there if they dont subject themselves to the injunctions of christianity, then you are deluded. Nearly every christian child knows about hell, and its a huge factor in why people of all ages keep convincing themselves to believe.
You'd have to be an idiot to believe that christianity was the basis for the founding of America. This country was founded specifically as a response to religious oppression by the religious, and created as a secular state with a godless constitution for exactly that reason.
Your inability to separate things you don't know/understand/detect from mythology is quite alarming.
It appears your knowledge of history is as bad as your understanding of the tax code.
Honestly, it's not.
This is gonna blow your mind, but it's entirely possible to disagree with other poasters about the existence of God without being as ass about it. You should try it sometime.
I guess the inclusion of God on our money bugs you. It must also bug you that the laws of this country are based on Judeo Christian values as well.
Your view of history is obviously skewed with your liberal twist.
And yes, Christian parents teach children about hell. Do you not think fear is taught in other avenues of life as well? My kids feared me if they done wrong as well. They knew they had to face the heat for doing wrong. But they also know I love them more than anything and would do the best i can to provide for them. Why would it be so hard to believe that God would do the same for us.
You obviously have your mind made up. If events in your life ever shaped up that God would get your attention, i would hope that you would be man enough to come back and take back all the bad you have said to people about God.
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Surely you're educated enough to know that god wasn't added to the money until 1957. The values that you call christian can be found in codes of law that predate christianity by thousands of years. It is absurd to suggest that humanity had never heard of basic morality until the Israelites arrived at Mt. Sinai.
Of course teaching children about the nature of consequences is necessary. Children should be afraid to disappoint their parents. But that is not even remotely the same thing as co-opting your children into a religion by pounding into the soft spot in their head before their old enough to think for themselves.
So does your inability to know/understand/detect Zeus mean that the Greek gods are not really myths?
This is a terrible example, but I guess I really shouldn't expect much better. I was pointing out that you take everything you don't understand, and assume it's myth. I'm merely saying there could be (and probably are) things you don't understand that aren't myths - I'm not sure how my inability to know Zeus would mean that Greek gods aren't myths... but then again, I don't think many people understand much of what you say - so that's really just par for the course.
The Greek gods have been proven to not exist (at least in the form that they were originally portrayed). People have been to the top of Mt. Olympus and there's no group of Gods living up there. You still haven't proven to anyone that believes in a higher power, that the higher power doesn't exist. So until you do that - I don't think you're going to convince many people that believe in a higher power to not believe there is one.
I thought his example was pretty good, actually. People have now gone into the "Heavens" and found no angels floating in the clouds and there's no old man with a white beard presiding over them either. That is basically what the original Christian theology suggests.
This guy:
Yes that would be fine if he was trying to denounce the version of God that has been concocted by the Christian religion over the years. Which as you and I have both stated our positions on - we don't believe that humanized old bearded man exists floating around in the sky. But it appears he is trying to refute the notion that any higher power exists. Which is a completely different argument.
Yes that's my point exactly. I interpreted that "mythology" to be any notion of higher power.
This started out as a great thread. Good debate between people who have different beliefs and the acknowledgement that it's ok to have those beliefs. Then someone had to come along and start acting like a little child. Insulting people only shows that you are not smart enough to have a debate. Not really surprised though.
No Christ Follower will ever sway a non believer on a forum like this nor will a non believer sway a Christ Follower.
Much like the Devout Jew named Saul, God gets folks attention when he knows it's time. Folk like me simply deliver the message, what happens after that is up to God. And of course the individual will either choose to follow or they will reject, free will is a gift from God. Nobody can be won over by brow beating them. Doesn't work that way.
Much like the Devout Jew named Saul, God gets folks attention when he knows it's time. Folk like me simply deliver the message, what happens after that is up to God. And of course the individual will either choose to follow or they will reject, free will is a gift from God. Nobody can be won over by brow beating them. Doesn't work that way.
That's very true. You won't sway anyone by telling them they are wrong. I believe that God does reach the person when they are ready. The soul finally gets the body vessel to wake up!
You mentioned "Free Will." That is another pillar of religious ideology that seems very hypocritical to me, the way it's portrayed anyway. We get free will, but if we don't choose to "follow God" we get punished for eternity? That's not free will at all. That's basically "Join or Die." And, not only do you die, you get to be tormented and tortured for eternity. I guess you keep your human body and it gets burned and skewered and tortured because your free will wasn't pleasing to God. That sounds like more religious dogma that is used to coerce you to follow the religion. I believe God DOES give us free will. But, the free will is not conditional. That's truly free will. That way, God experiences itself in every way possible.
I kinda think of it as; I am God and the cells of my body are all my "children." I create new ones all the time. They each have a brain (nucleus) and they operate individually, but they also contribute to the larger whole. If I have a malignant cell, or tumor, and I remove it, I don't make that cell live on in a petri dish and make it suffer over and over. It just ceases to exist. No need to get even! This idea that God has some perpetual torture chamber for "Satan" to torture you because you made the wrong choice is mockery of God. God gives free will, period. I see God as unending forgiveness and love. No one is excluded. Adolf Hitler goes to "Heaven." The worst are forgiven. Jesus was exemplary of that very thing.
Which brings up an interesting question for me. For those who read, study and believe every word of the Bible... does God tell us that he has given "Satan" this power to torture us for eternity? Is Satan the master of that kingdom called Hell now? What is the story on that? I'm sincerely asking.
This is a great point. Those who believe in this torture chamber are saying one of the two following things: 1) God sanctions this eternal abuse by Satan in Hell, and is perfectly fine sending some of his "children" there, or 2) God is not all powerful, because he can't stop Satan from torturing some souls.
I was also thinking why does God allow Satan to have such power? Why is it that supposedly Satan influences us to sin? How many times have you heard someone say "they let the devil in their lives and allowed him to destroy it?" or "watching porn is the devil influencing you, he wants you to do bad things." How could a fallen angel have so much power? It does not make sense to me.
I'm not sure what the exact answer is, but it's got something to do with you making me another sandwich.
I'm not sure what the exact answer is, but it's got something to do with you making me another sandwich.
LOL U so FUNNY!!!.... here, clog your arteries with this one! hahahahaha xo
No, Satan will not be tormenting anyone. Hell was created for him and the Angels he took with him. Then man sinned and without redemption will be there with Satan. Bibles states death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire .
So my question is this( another attempt to open the debate again), if the God of the Bible is real and all the Christian teachings are real and it was proven to you, would you repent and accept it. Or would you continue saying it's not fair to be forced into such a decision and continue to live life your way? This follows the free will idea.
So my question is this( another attempt to open the debate again), if the God of the Bible is real and all the Christian teachings are real and it was proven to you, would you repent and accept it. Or would you continue saying it's not fair to be forced into such a decision and continue to live life your way? This follows the free will idea.
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." - John Adams, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see." - Benjamin Franklin, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
"Being a Christian… is a character which I prize far above all this world has or can boast." - Patrick Henry, REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; LEGISLATOR; “THE VOICE OF LIBERTY”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA
"It becomes a people publicly to acknowledge the over-ruling hand of Divine Providence and their dependence upon the Supreme Being as their Creator and Merciful Preserver . . . and with becoming humility and sincere repentance to supplicate the pardon that we may obtain forgiveness through the merits and mediation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - Samuel Huntington, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; JUDGE; GOVERNOR OF CONNECTICUT
"I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others." - Thomas Jefferson, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; DIPLOMAT; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA; SECRETARY OF STATE; THIRD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
"The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations! . . . My only hope of salvation is in the infinite tran¬scendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Noth¬ing but His blood will wash away my sins [Acts 22:16]. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!" - Benjamin Rush, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SURGEON GENERAL OF THE CONTINENTAL ARMY; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; “FATHER OF AMERICAN MEDICINE”; TREASURER OF THE U. S. MINT; “FATHER OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION”
"[T]he only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government is the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible." - Benjamin Rush
"The Bible, when not read in schools, is seldom read in any subsequent period of life… [T]he Bible… should be read in our schools in preference to all other books because it contains the greatest portion of that kind of knowledge which is calculated to produce private and public happiness." - Benjamin Rush
"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him. . . . That He made man at first perfectly holy; that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever. I believe that God . . . did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer. . . . I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to Him, joined by the bond of the covenant. . . . I believe that the sacraments of the New Testament are baptism and the Lord’s Supper. . . . I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgment of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment." - Roger Sherman, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; “MASTER BUILDER OF THE CONSTITUTION”; JUDGE; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR
"He called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . . all nations may know and be obedient to that grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ." - Caleb Strong, DELEGATE AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION TO FRAME THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; RATIFIER OF THE CONSTITUTION; U. S. SENATOR; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS
"Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle... In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity... That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants." - U.S. House Judiciary Committee, 1854
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see." - Benjamin Franklin, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
"Being a Christian… is a character which I prize far above all this world has or can boast." - Patrick Henry, REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; LEGISLATOR; “THE VOICE OF LIBERTY”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA
"It becomes a people publicly to acknowledge the over-ruling hand of Divine Providence and their dependence upon the Supreme Being as their Creator and Merciful Preserver . . . and with becoming humility and sincere repentance to supplicate the pardon that we may obtain forgiveness through the merits and mediation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - Samuel Huntington, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; JUDGE; GOVERNOR OF CONNECTICUT
"I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others." - Thomas Jefferson, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; DIPLOMAT; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA; SECRETARY OF STATE; THIRD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
"The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations! . . . My only hope of salvation is in the infinite tran¬scendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Noth¬ing but His blood will wash away my sins [Acts 22:16]. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!" - Benjamin Rush, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SURGEON GENERAL OF THE CONTINENTAL ARMY; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; “FATHER OF AMERICAN MEDICINE”; TREASURER OF THE U. S. MINT; “FATHER OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION”
"[T]he only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government is the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible." - Benjamin Rush
"The Bible, when not read in schools, is seldom read in any subsequent period of life… [T]he Bible… should be read in our schools in preference to all other books because it contains the greatest portion of that kind of knowledge which is calculated to produce private and public happiness." - Benjamin Rush
"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him. . . . That He made man at first perfectly holy; that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever. I believe that God . . . did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer. . . . I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to Him, joined by the bond of the covenant. . . . I believe that the sacraments of the New Testament are baptism and the Lord’s Supper. . . . I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgment of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment." - Roger Sherman, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; “MASTER BUILDER OF THE CONSTITUTION”; JUDGE; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR
"He called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . . all nations may know and be obedient to that grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ." - Caleb Strong, DELEGATE AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION TO FRAME THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; RATIFIER OF THE CONSTITUTION; U. S. SENATOR; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS
"Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle... In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity... That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants." - U.S. House Judiciary Committee, 1854
The founding fathers knew the dangers of theocracy (they in fact fled it) and established a secular nation. But its also
Apparent that they were shaped by christian/deist beliefs. There can be a middle ground.
Apparent that they were shaped by christian/deist beliefs. There can be a middle ground.
I would say that they fled it because there was no freedom to worship as they pleased thanks to the king (I think Henry). They felt that freedom to worship was a fundamental right That, in my opinion, is why it is the very first thing mentioned in the bill of rights.
"Man" did? Or A man did?
Where did you get that whole first part?
And, you said "Hell gets cast into the lake of fire?" So, Hell is something separate that gets cast into the lake of fire with everything else?
Hell could be just as unpleasant if it were sub-zero temperatures, too.
You're getting there. But you know you read it. I know you read it. But I still commend your ability to learn how this message board thing goes.
I read paragraph one. It didn't seem to answer the question I had posted prior to that.
I glean my info from the KJV Bible. I know you don't care for the concept of it being the word of God. Its your choice. Your thought has become popular today. But reading my Bible, it predicts the move towards a all in one mentality from people as time advances. Leads to the coming of Christ and the end of time as we know it. That move towards one world religion is denying what my Bible teaches. You have obviously chosen to believe how you want. That's fine. As irby pointed out earlier, none is going to convince the other of anything different.
my personal belief in a creator is entirely based on logic. is it more logical to assume that there was a creator and everything was created in ways that for the most part are beyond our understanding given our space and time limitations or is it more logical to assume something (soup, atoms, mass, adam and eve--whatever you want to call it) came from nothing and got the ball rolling and somehow everything we know is a result of that.
My belief in Jesus as this creator is an ongoing work in progress that is best revealed to me when i am serving others instead of wanting to be served
My belief in Jesus as this creator is an ongoing work in progress that is best revealed to me when i am serving others instead of wanting to be served
You gleaned it. That sounds like exactly what everyone else does. We interpret it to mean what makes sense to us. My point was simply that nowhere in the Bible does it say, specifically, that "Satan will not be tormenting anyone. Hell was created for him and the Angels he took with him." You basically inferred that. It's kinda like Dante's Inferno and the 9 Circles of Hell. He made it up based on what he gleaned from the Clergy's teachings. These detailed stories of Satan and Hell are not directly referenced in Scripture. The Church made it up to keep people in-line and keep them obeying the Church and it's "leaders." For many, many centuries, the Scriptures were passed along to the general public by the clergy ONLY! People didn't have their own Bible and they couldn't read it if they did. So, imagine the impact of those stories and interpretations, and multiple translations, and how that impacts what people come to believe as being "real" or not.
Speaking of the Founders and the Bible;
Thomas Jefferson's Bible is a great read. Here's what it was/is: Jefferson Bible.
Thomas Jefferson's Bible is a great read. Here's what it was/is: Jefferson Bible.
All I can say is there have been many almost miraculous things happen in my life that were what I KNOW we're the result of my rosary prayers that I pray occasionally.... Things I cannot explain even to myself, yet some would say the rosary is "not biblical" and think that's just hogwash. God is so much more than most people realize. God is in everything.
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