All your bullet points are true, but don't forget all the injuries. Roy mentioned that last year he was able to start the same lineup in 35 of 36 games, so it certainly doesn't help that he can't get a consistent group on the floor this year.
Ok, so I Lied
- Thread starter Tarheel75
- Start date
They sure have, at least 3-4 games, probably more. Very frustrating to watch.
I have to concur on all points @midline.So Midline, you slept on your frustrations and then produced comments that hit the nail right on the head with every word. The mistakes we make on offense and defense are so fundamental that little kid coaches would be tearing their hair out. In 44 years of Carolina hoops fandom, no team has frustrated me more. We lack so much BB IQ that even effort can't make up for it anymore.
I hope we can win a few more games, maybe even against some ACC top-feeders; but my expectations have been seriously tempered.
I too was concerned about the effect his return would have on the team chemistry we had started to exhibit in the last couple of games.
They certainly did, and that was what disappointed me the most. Any basketball savvy we had started to display completely disappeared when Cole came into the game. And when your three best scorers go 15 of 45 from the field, and take 74% of your shots, you're generally not going to win, especially if one of them goes 0-7 from the line.
I agree, sometimes teams just don't have the basketball acumen to play smart basketball, and the coach needs to set hard and fast rules to force them to do so. I have been harping on this team's poor basketball IQ for the last 15 games, and just when I hoped they had learned to make the extra pass and protect the ball, they take a big step backward. When you consider that this team may be the worst shooting team I've ever watched and our myriad of injuries, you have the Charlie Foxtrot that is this season.
At this point @Tarheel75 , all we can do is laugh. This is one of those "lost seasons" that UNC fans rarely have to endure. Don't let it get you down, concentrate on getting well and all the positive things in your life.
Amen. I love Roy too, but he has to be one of the most stubborn coaches I've ever seen. This team's lack of focus dictates that Roy use every freakin' TO at his disposal to coach them up, especially at the end of games when scoring is essential to winning.
I have followed this board for a long time. I don’t post much because well honestly I just enjoy watching some of the convos going back and forth. I also just look to see if I’m crazy with some of the things I see or are there others that see it to, but that’s besides the point.
That being said I have read through this thread and I can’t help but think some here are prisoners of the moment because of the last 2 games where we beat an anemic Miami team and Moo who Roy owns no matter who is on the floor.
So let’s think about this team without Cole. It’s the team that lost 5 in a row with god awful shooting. A team that blew double digit leads at home to Clemson and Pitt. Then proceeded to go to Pitt and score 52 points in a blowout. A team that lost to Wofford and gave up 96 points to GT. They also blew a lead at VT to lose in double OT. So let’s not pretend we were any good without him.
Lastly, do we win without him last night? Maybe, but also a possibility we lose by 10 or more. It’s also possible we win all of those games above if he never gets hurt. My whole point is let’s not get caught up in the prior couple games. This team is EXACTLY who they are which is a poor shooting team that shows flashes but nothing real consistent. That’s just my opinion. Doesn’t make me right, but just wanted to throw it out there.
That being said I have read through this thread and I can’t help but think some here are prisoners of the moment because of the last 2 games where we beat an anemic Miami team and Moo who Roy owns no matter who is on the floor.
So let’s think about this team without Cole. It’s the team that lost 5 in a row with god awful shooting. A team that blew double digit leads at home to Clemson and Pitt. Then proceeded to go to Pitt and score 52 points in a blowout. A team that lost to Wofford and gave up 96 points to GT. They also blew a lead at VT to lose in double OT. So let’s not pretend we were any good without him.
Lastly, do we win without him last night? Maybe, but also a possibility we lose by 10 or more. It’s also possible we win all of those games above if he never gets hurt. My whole point is let’s not get caught up in the prior couple games. This team is EXACTLY who they are which is a poor shooting team that shows flashes but nothing real consistent. That’s just my opinion. Doesn’t make me right, but just wanted to throw it out there.
This team has been offensively challenged, ALL YEAR, been very consistent with how much of a struggle scoring has been.
Somehow beating a Miami team who had 6 scholarship players available, and knocking off NC State convinced some otherwise, and we had finally "got it" offensively?
Cole is a ball dominant point guard, and developing some continuity within a unit with him back behind the wheel will take some adjustments, but good Lord, really people, we somehow morphed into a smooth flowing efficient offense that was/is better without him last night????
That was a very typical performance by the parts I have watched all year, with the exception of Garrison, who was off shooting across the board, including at the free throw line.
Somehow beating a Miami team who had 6 scholarship players available, and knocking off NC State convinced some otherwise, and we had finally "got it" offensively?
Cole is a ball dominant point guard, and developing some continuity within a unit with him back behind the wheel will take some adjustments, but good Lord, really people, we somehow morphed into a smooth flowing efficient offense that was/is better without him last night????
That was a very typical performance by the parts I have watched all year, with the exception of Garrison, who was off shooting across the board, including at the free throw line.
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Appreciate your sentiments Archer, and I'm not down, I'm just frustrated with our team and coach at the moment. I even got irritated with dadika, whose posts I really enjoy. I may just be the idiot he says I am, but, having been around the game as long as I have, I know a little bit about what I speak, and this team is going back down the rabbit hole of blatant disregard for offensive flow, effort, & focus, putting us squarely back where we were in our losing throws. It's extremely painful to watch for not only myself, but, for many others.
The crew I attend most games with are dumbfounded and all are former players, and we all cannot be misguided or wrong, especially when we are all on the same page when we digested the results of that game.
Got an opportunity to read an article by Greg Barnes? ( offensive reversion) over on the other site. I swear he took all of those words right out of my mouth it seems, but I feel what he wrote was succinct and on point.
ETA: Also just finished reading the article by Adam Lucas, who is a very fine writer, in my opinion, and usually will back you off the cliff with his observations after losses. In that article, he was reaching, really reaching to enumerate the positives. Even he knows.
Oh, and one more edit please..., could anyone of us on this board picked a worse year for that "Carolina Access" show about this season? God..., what a year.
ETA: Also just finished reading the article by Adam Lucas, who is a very fine writer, in my opinion, and usually will back you off the cliff with his observations after losses. In that article, he was reaching, really reaching to enumerate the positives. Even he knows.
Oh, and one more edit please..., could anyone of us on this board picked a worse year for that "Carolina Access" show about this season? God..., what a year.
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Have to agree with 75. Offense flow shuts down almost completely with Cole in. Might be just adjustment. He needs to review tape to play pick and roll better. Last 2 possessions being run pick and roll at him we're not done on accident.
exactly... I said weeks ago that being on this show is a curse, kinda like the NFL player selected for the Madden cover getting injured the next year. I wish this show on dook every year going forward.
I agree with you on that sequence. However, Cole can play better defense, if he would not get so close up to his man on the start. He is not quick enough to stop them from going around him and he gets screened too easily, as I also have noticed all year long.
Rather than start another topic, I would like some input from you guys.
In light of what we have seen out of Cole this year, could there be a correlation to his dominating the ball on offense and style of play to the choices that some recruits made not to commit to UNC? There was some chatter about this and I remember pooh poohing it..., but now I am not so sure.
The kid we lost to Arizona evidently did not want to play with him, as well as the Robinson kid who went to Villanova, and then you have Zeke, who also decided on Arizona, and I am wondering if maybe he got an earful from the other kid.
C'mon guys, tell me I'm a conspiracy theorist, I'm reaching, it is not possible, I'm a UFO enthusiast, or just an idiot like some think. I am so pissed off I can't think straight since last night. I will eventually relax and calm down, it's just that my mind is traveling at warp speed and I have to find the neutral switch.
In light of what we have seen out of Cole this year, could there be a correlation to his dominating the ball on offense and style of play to the choices that some recruits made not to commit to UNC? There was some chatter about this and I remember pooh poohing it..., but now I am not so sure.
The kid we lost to Arizona evidently did not want to play with him, as well as the Robinson kid who went to Villanova, and then you have Zeke, who also decided on Arizona, and I am wondering if maybe he got an earful from the other kid.
C'mon guys, tell me I'm a conspiracy theorist, I'm reaching, it is not possible, I'm a UFO enthusiast, or just an idiot like some think. I am so pissed off I can't think straight since last night. I will eventually relax and calm down, it's just that my mind is traveling at warp speed and I have to find the neutral switch.
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All of the points made above by the OP and others are valid and get no argument from me,, ,I saw a stat last night that BC scored on their last 6 straight possessions and 12 of their final 16 It would be nice to get a STOP at these critical points in the games...but hey this is a lost year and we all want it to end a s a p
It’s bad when TH75 has had enough.
dont look into it too much. We simply suck man.
dont look into it too much. We simply suck man.
Nice post.
While it's accepted that this team is not an offensive juggernaut, we were just beginning to get into an offensively fair to good place. We had games where we shot 50% or better in the 1st half and 50% or better for an entire ballgame, something we had not done this year.
What, in your opinion caused the drastic dip in our newly attained offensive flow? I submit to you that reverting back to what we saw
in prior games, won or lost mind you, was the culprit. It's an issue that Roy, going forward will have to struggle with, or we might not win another game period.
So we beat two crap teams without Cole and all of a sudden Cole is not only ruining our play, he's causing recruiting problems? We beat an injured Miami team and Roy's stepchild without Cole. @nc4life05 was spot on with his post.
Mediocre college basketball coaches do not win 3 Natty's in a tad over a decade in time... So, you just do not like Coach...
Made me chuckle..., it's not that I have had enough, that was just me spouting off in my derangement. It's the fact that we are actually a fair bit better than we show. We are not as bad collectively as a team to the likes of MOST of the teams we have lost to.
It's the culminating effect of that and the misery of watching the team suffer needlessly at times, and the bad timing ( only in my opinion) of bringing Cole back to play, cost us a game that we should win 100% of the times we play them, they do not top us in talent or athletic ability, just in playing smarts, and that can win a game against even the best teams at times. Most have to realize, that this game was critical for the team going forward and I fear the dagger is firmly set in the heart of this season.
I never played hoops beyond high school but I did play four years of college lacrosse and in my senior season a ball-dominant player became our star. He became a star because the ball was in his stick so much that he just obviously had so many more touches than anyone else. His play dictated a change in our successful chemistry that was palpable. I saw this on the court last night and.....my lovely wife of 44 years said, "The Heels started standing around once Cole began dribbling to drive over and over, just like you guys did when ......... was a freshman." Light bulb moment right there.
However, the perfect £#|+ storm analogy does apply to this season:
Clemson: we tap out a rebound instead of grabbing it> 3 pt buzzer beater @ half , lose a ten point lead in two minutes and give up a three that forces OT = loss
VT: missed free throws, blown lead
BC: missed free throws, anemic defense in last minute, bad call against BRob, horrible last 17 seconds
Granted, we are struggling...but we should be 6 - 4 easy, not 3 - 7.
Now the tough half of our season arrives...yikes!
However, the perfect £#|+ storm analogy does apply to this season:
Clemson: we tap out a rebound instead of grabbing it> 3 pt buzzer beater @ half , lose a ten point lead in two minutes and give up a three that forces OT = loss
VT: missed free throws, blown lead
BC: missed free throws, anemic defense in last minute, bad call against BRob, horrible last 17 seconds
Granted, we are struggling...but we should be 6 - 4 easy, not 3 - 7.
Now the tough half of our season arrives...yikes!
this game was paramount in any type of run at the tourney. We failed and no coming back at this point realistically. That being said I think we are better than we showed last night but don’t think we are that good and there’s a lot of reasons for it but it’s a simple
Reality at this point. To expect much else after 21 games of seeing this shit would make us the crazy ones.
It's just possible, that you may have something there. I have, going back to the beginning of this season, in as guarded a way as I could think of, said that this team would most likely have to bank on their defense to be competitive. In the practices that I have been allowed to attend throughout this year, it was very evident that we were lacking in scoring power or offense. It was the gang that can't shoot straight from the start.
At that time, I felt that our offense would make the steady improvements needed that would make us competitive when we played good defensively. As it's turned out, we are just a very poor shooting team, that allows their lack of offense to affect their defense as well, and that leads to defeat after defeat. Watching shoot arounds, it is real obvious who can make shots, and even those few have let
our bad play affect even them, and the hesitation and questionable looks on their faces when playing is not a good thing to see.
Cole Played well , If he does not play yesterday you could tell the other guys just didn't have it and we get creamed like GT game.. At least with an elite PG it looks have way decent even in defeat.. No real excuses to the game other than Once you see that its a zone, and a match-up zone at that, then the only way to beat it is keep the ball moving..
This bashing of the young men on this team because they are not playing to your personal satisfaction is so wrong on so many fronts. Unlike most of us that are older and supposively more equipped to handle frustrations and disappointments because of our life expierences much of this years team are young and not use to losing at all and anyone who has watched the team lose all of those close games must see the pain and anguish on their faces and their body movements.
Believe it or not the players also have pride and FEELINGS and they have to live thru this “Hell” everyday at practice and will have to live with the pain of being one of the worse record wise teams all time at Chapel Hill and that is a burden and cross that I am so glad I will never have to deal with.
Put your selfish personal pride and ego to the way side and cheer the team on regardless of the outcome. For 60 plus years Carolina basketball has been on the top or near the top of the round ball college world and for the spoiled fans to jump ship and bitch about an off year after all of those great and magical years is a inexcusable way of band wagoning...
Believe it or not the players also have pride and FEELINGS and they have to live thru this “Hell” everyday at practice and will have to live with the pain of being one of the worse record wise teams all time at Chapel Hill and that is a burden and cross that I am so glad I will never have to deal with.
Put your selfish personal pride and ego to the way side and cheer the team on regardless of the outcome. For 60 plus years Carolina basketball has been on the top or near the top of the round ball college world and for the spoiled fans to jump ship and bitch about an off year after all of those great and magical years is a inexcusable way of band wagoning...
Recognizing reality, as bad as it may be, is certainly not the same as jumping ship. To portray this team and our talent level overall as anything less than bad is what most would call living in a fantasy world. You do you but certainly don’t assert that anybody is fair weather, bandwagoning, etc simply Bc you don’t like their version of reality. As fans, we are still here clearly despite all the thing we wish were different this season. I still watch even though it takes years off my life every time the balls goes up for this team hoping and cheering that it’ll click and a miracle change will occur Bc I love the university, the program and all it has stood for. That doesn’t mean we can’t be honest about what this team is, and it’s not good, at all....and let’s come back to reality a bit for ourselves and these young men. There are far worse things to deal with than being on one of the worst teams in UNC history. This experience will certainly help these young men in ways they do not know at this point despite nobody every really raising their hands and saying hey volunteer me for this mess. At the end of the day it’s simply basketball. Nobody is judging them as human beings. I think we all recognize they are likely all very good dudes and will do great things in life, but as basketball players most of them have Shown they are in over their heads. It’s reality....It’s life. Better to learn now than fall on your face later in life at the first sign of reality/adversity.
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Wishing Roy "wasn't so frickin' stubborn" is wishing wasted.
Roy is who and what he is, and he is as stubborn about it as can be.
It should provide a great learning experience for future teams.
If ANYBODY made 1 more 3 pointer we win as well. Our team FT percentage in this game was acceptable. Our team 3 point percentage was terrible.
In my opinion I think they let Cole disrupt the flow of the offense or the flow of the past couple games. The reason I say they “let” him is because of what bacot said after the game...
“Me and Garrison could have done a lot better... (we) got a little stagnant again, just watching, versus doing what we were doing, posting up and giving Cole other options," Bacot said. "We were just kinda leaving it up all to him."
The last thing he said is why I say that. I understand Cole is ball dominant, but saying they were just leaving it up to him? Why would they do that? Why stop doing what you are doing just because he is back? I’m assuming they weren’t told to stop playing how they have been. So why just because Cole is back do you leave it up to him? I thought that comment was a direct insight into their mentality when Cole is out there. “Leave it up to him” With that mentality (to me) he has no choice but to do it himself.
despite the ridiculous narrative on here regarding Cole messing things up for a 10-10 team who just beat 2 bottom feeders, the truth is in Bacot’s comments. He’s on the team. He knows what they have and he knows what they do/don’t do. It’s also obvious watching the game.
IDUNK, I appreciate the sentiments of your post, some good words and thoughts in that post, so thanks for posting that.
I understand, and there are others who also understand, that any program is susceptible to bad or down years. However, when you have a collective team that makes the same mistakes over and over after having been instructed, coached, cajoled, and implored to correct those same mistakes and they continue to do so perhaps thinking that there is going to be a different result this time, isn't this the definition of insanely played basketball?
Also, we as fans and basketball lovers and former players have a right to express our opinions about players, coaches, team play, and most everything else. It does more harm than good to stick your head in the sand and pretend all is good, when it's most definitely not. Aside from the losing record, this group of young men also have to take a responsible position in regards to their less than acceptable output, especially so, when they are better than they show.
Criticism can be a good thing if presented fairly and equally and in the correct measure. Yes, these are young men, with young minds, and most on this forum will always support the team come "hell or high water", but to ask them to be mute and blind to what we have been subjected to by their play, is disingenuous as well.
These young men come into the UNC program with their expectations and coaches have theirs, and we as fans, have them too. After all, these young men are getting a free education that I believe is 2nd to none, along with many other advantages, these things carry with them a responsibility that has to be born by each player.
Youth has to be served as the old saying goes, and sometimes, growing out of that youth can be tough when you are criticized. Criticism, when filtered down to a player often results in a better player.
Interesting question 75, I don't think our not getting those guys was about Cole, Cole seemed well liked and well respected by his peers. Now could they have preferred to play with someone else that more fit their style, possible for sure. I think more of it was the players we already had may have been seen as restricting some of their desired PT. But there are just a lot of reasons a kid picks a particular program, in one case my understanding it was a girl?
We have struggled for a while getting that top 5 level guy, a lot of folks blame the NCAA investigation, rightfully to an extent but I think it is more than just that. Roy is going to do things his way, it is that very mindset that not only put him in the HOF but also at times can be his weakness. Roy is very hesitant to change what has got him where he is, I understand that to an extent but in sports, the sport changes you either change with it or risk being left behind. Roy refuses to simplify his system, a system that he has won 3 nattys with since being our head coach. But you have to play with the players that you have, Roy's game plan depends on having solid depth and solid experienced players. So we should realize that all 3 of Roy's nattys relied on Jr and Sr players as starters and key roles off the bench.
While we have seen rarer freshmen come in and play great as freshmen (Hansbourgh/Barnes/Coby) we have more often seen freshmen come in and struggle for large parts of the season. We have as well seen 5 stars flock to programs like duke and Ky and show out. Now I see that as a result of there being just more working parts in what we do as opposed to the "dribble drive" and those other programs just being able to wrap the court in 5 star talent, especially at the big man spots. I believe a kid that stays with us long enough to learn what we do and able to perform it as taught becomes a better player than he was coming in to our program and carries that for the rest of his career. UNC players are well respected in NBA circles because they have been well taught, they may not be the talents other programs have but they are closer to their ceiling and able to compete at the next level.
In the 1&D era, it IMO did play against Roy because those glorified 5 stars really just want to get thru the "college requirement" more than develop their game. They want a program that will feature their strengths and cover up their short comings, in other words they don't want to study any more than they have to. These 5 star kids realize, the NBA game is now days more of a 1 on 1 experience than a total team game so why do I need to work hard to learn a game that is not played in the pay for play world?
So for the most part Roy has got kids that needed their game expanded (and I think they realize this coming in) to be lottery level coveted by NBA programs. 2 exceptions being Cole and Naz yet neither of those guys have played up to their incoming hype. I do not think many of these big time 5 stars really believe their game needs to be expanded so they revert to going 1 on 1, which kills team chemistry.
Cole, I would rather see him score 10pts and dish out 10 assists with no TOs than to see him score 30. Having said all of this, I do not want Roy to change things now, the 1 & D era is about over for the college game. It will tilt the college game back to developing players over time because the mega talents will skip the college game in large. That is the point where the tables turn to programs like ours that develop players over time, teams like Villinova, Gonzaga, UVa will benefit as well.
Thanks Dave
You made a statement that really resonated with me.
" I would rather Cole score 10 points and have 10 assists than see him score 30".
Has Cole developed the needed ability to make those around him better? ( I'll leave that as an open question for the board) I would think 10 assists in a game would mean that he is looking for others to get the ball to in scoring position and I can envision better offensive flow, more confidences built among the other 4 players on the court, and energizing not just offensively, but defensively as well.
In the last 2 games, regardless of the opponents, was that not what we were seeing developing? Best shooting to date, some of best post play to date, decent to good defense being played, and SMILES on the faces of our players. Where did that go? I will let others think about that and offer up their opinions, as I have stated mine several times already in this thread.
good commentary but who you play does matter, a lot actually. What many on here were missing was who we played to get 2 wins. We played a Miami team with 6 scholarship players and a bulk of their ball handlers out and we shot better than we’ve shot all year. We played a not good NC State team who has limped to a barely above 500 record playing cupcake city and a weak slate in ACC play. We own state even in our worst year. That’s evident. It was fools gold just as some on here said it was. We didn’t beat anything close to a good team in those 2 games and shot out of our minds in one which as we know is like seeing a unicorn in real life given how bad we shoot on the regular. In a good way we all were riding the wave of optimism and posting on how we could get back in the hunt for the tournament and then again for the 11th time this season, we showed how bad we were in a losing effort. We are not a good team. We do not have a good collection of talent. We are not a good shooting team. We commit more Unforced errors than you’d even find in a middle school basketball game. We are the poster children for low basketball IQ. I don’t think Roy has done a great job with in game management as I’ve felt he could have massages this team to a few more wins honestly but even then we are what? 12-9, maybe 13-8 at absolute best.
I also think we have a team of sheep. When things are going well, Miami and State games, they are comfortable. That’s easy. When things get tough, they start to do dumb shit and panic. That says a helluva lot about who they are as basketball players and it’s not good. That’s our reality. When things get tough on a traditional UNC team, you have a dog or 2 that takes the lead and pulls the team through. We don’t have that.
My best guess would be 13-8 with any great luck 14-7, but as you feel, that's a stretch probably. You think BC is better than NCSU ? Not me.
To my trained or untrained eyes of experience, we were developing a little on offense, and it went to hell in a hand basket. I think it's been proven that we are not a good team, but not 10-11 bad.
i agree we aren’t as bad as our record indicates but doesn’t really change the reality. Sure, we could easily be 14-7 with a schedule like state and many others play in non conference but that’s not how we roll and rightfully so. I’d rather take a few lumps and know what I’ve got vs fake it along the way and then get smacked in the mouth at first sign of competition. I also agree that BC is worse than State but as shared, for whatever reason, state just can’t seem to beat us even in our worst year (I love it). Again, we were 8-10 and pulled out a few wins against not so good competition. Especially that Miami game, that Canes team in uniform was pitiful. We agree on a lot but I just don’t see the offensive development in those 2 games that others saw maybe. I saw improvement against mediocre comp but not development. Miami was an outlier, I think we agree there. I do think we did as good a job as we have all year in feeding the post against state which could certainly be seen as development but we weren’t scorching the nets either against an average defensive team at best.
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here you go again. I love Roy, glad he’s our coach but he’s not perfect. Coach Roy has acknowledged his less than stellar job this year on multiple occasions. He’s done a piss poor job managing this not so good team down the stretch in a handful of games that could have went our way. He’s said as much himself so I guess he doesn’t like himself then right? Just asinine.
Agree mostly, although you have to admit shooting over 50% for the game at State was an enormous improvement that was spawning a little confidence. In any event, we have the real meat of the schedule ahead, and I fear it's gonna be really bad, if we don't get something, anything offensively worked out. If we stand around Monday & next Saturday, we just might see some on suicide watch, with me leading the crowd.
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