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OOTB's Political Thread . ..

judge gives jury instructions that favor trump: “well he had to”


Judge gives jury instructions that favor the prosecution: “mistrial! Mistrial! Corrupt!”

Maga trying to prove trial is rigged

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thanks, my question wasn't specific to this trial but it was regarding the trial itself. See my last reply to gteeitup. Upsetting the balance of the court might be a good thing when things go overboard in trying to maintain the balance. As a matter of fact, as I said to gee, you might say the system itself goes overboard in that regard.

All there is to me is the truth of the matter, any matter. To me, anything that doesn't seek without interference to get to the whole truth is flawed and no bueno.

I've read that our structure points to something like a 90% surety in outcome. 90% sounds pretty good unless you're that innocent 10th guy behind bars. If I had the wherewithal to do so, I would revamp the system. As you mention, so much of it is historical, and we should consider that our history regresses toward the less enlightened and progressive (not that kind of 'progressive'). But when lawyers exploit the system so greatly to their benefit, and lawyers control the system, I doubt we'll see much in the way of advancement.
Think about what you are saying though. Jurors are drawn randomly from voter and motor rolls in most counties. That means you get the really smart and the really challenged. There is no way to sort them out and only get the jurors who would ask really insightful questions that are relevant to the trial. Allowing such a scenario might be great if you were on the jury, but consider some of the things posted here and the things those posters would ask in any given trial.

Your criticism of lawyers as to exploitation and control of the system is appropriate. But trusting jurors to "fix" the lawyers in a trial isn't gonna get there. It's the stupid juries returning stupid verdicts that enable lawyers to get some of the mindboggling results that we hear about. These are the same people who vote for goodness sake.
 
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“Instructions” from the judge shouldn’t favor either side.
Well maybe I should say “could be interpreted to favor” one side or the other. Like when he instructed them that cohen is an accomplice and his testimony should be treated as such. That favors the defense imo. When he instructed them that they don’t have to agree if trump was directly responsible for the checks or just knew about them to find him guilty then that favors the prosecution. Imo.
 
judge gives jury instructions that favor trump: “well he had to”


Judge gives jury instructions that favor the prosecution: “mistrial! Mistrial! Corrupt!”

Maga trying to prove trial is rigged

guy fail GIF
But see, that type of reaction is what prevents you from looking at this with any objectivity whatsoever. It's not about favoring either side, it's about staying neutral and being fair to both sides. It's also why when I laid out specifics of the bias of this judge, the reaction of TLDR demonstrated an unwillingness to even attempt to be fair or objective.

This case is predicated on the State proving an underlying crime committed by Trump that lets them attempt to prove the crimes he is actually charged with under NY state law. The judge, for the first time, laid out to the Defendant and the jury three different crimes (that were not detailed in the indictment, etc.) and told the jury that they don't have to agree on any of those three underlying crimes. They only have to individually find that he violated one of the three (they can disagree completely between themselves) and then be unanimous that he next violated a NY charge. That's slam dunk reversible error. But keep on believing this is all maga vs. non-maga.
 
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The jury wants testimony by pecker Read back to them when he said the catch and kill was to prevent stories from hurting trumps election.

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Agree that this is not a good thing for the defense and is at best a sign of disagreement amongst the 12. Like I said in another response, hung jury is Trump's best hope.
 
Well maybe I should say “could be interpreted to favor” one side or the other. Like when he instructed them that cohen is an accomplice and his testimony should be treated as such. That favors the defense imo. When he instructed them that they don’t have to agree if trump was directly responsible for the checks or just knew about them to find him guilty then that favors the prosecution. Imo.
I don't necessarily disagree with your interpretations here, but you never know how individual jurors are going to react to anything. You do bring up something though about Cohen being an accomplice. The judge here ruled that Trump's defense could NOT use the argument or defense that Trump was acting on advice of counsel from Cohen. On appeal, that will be another problem for the State/Court.
 
…, hung jury is Trump's best hope.

I disagree. The mileage that the Trump campaign will get out of a guilty verdict is better than all the money in the world for advertising. Most people (according to polls) already believe the indictments are politically motivated. A guilty verdict allows Trump to use that against Biden. I’m telling you, while I believe his defense team is working to get the jury hung or an acquittal, they’re not overly worried about a guilty verdict. Call it a blessing in disguise.
 
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What you are talking about, however, just doesn't exist as there is no fairer system (to all sides) to get at the truth. No one has yet invented an infallible machine to detect "truth". It's one of those things that is a great theory, but isn't reality. I'd analogize it to something like communism or socialism. They are great in theory in a college lecture hall, but they never work in the real world.
I said nothing about any infallible system. I said a system that doesn't strive hard enough to reveal the whole truth; and comparing any system to any other system means little to me. I don't care if it's better than anything else. If it isn't as good as it can be, it needs to be made better. In our culture and our society and in looking at the world around us, I don't see how that point can be argued. Fer instance, IMO we have the best health care in the world. So let's just stop introducing new drugs and treatments and devices and say good enough. Right? Of course not.

AND I am not convinced we are light years ahead of everybody else anyway. Our human nature dictates that we think what we have is what we SHOULD have and that it's better than what someone else has. I always discount any form of homerism.

And in that same vein, it serves to point out that communism and socialism is basically what we are talking about. We are talking about a system that is taught in law schools but doesn't really work out to serve the cause of justice as well as intended, or at least as well as it should. Much like communism.

you're not helping yourself trying to convince me, by choosing examples of Joe Shit the Rag Man asking stupid questions. A juror needs to understand what is being presented, and he sometimes has a better chance of that if he asks the question himself rather than having to depend on the answer given to pointed questioning. That pointed questioning is often designed to produce an answer that accomplishes the opposite of what is needed, the revelation of the entire truth. That defendant you're so concerned about depends on the skill of his attorney to overcome such pointed questioning, and I hope you don't try to convince me that attorneys are infallible in that or any other regard. Likewise, on the flip side JUSTICE depends on the same things. And justice doesn't just serve the defendant, it serves ALL of us.

As I said, the judge should be there to help the truth come out and not just to see that the adversaries stay in their lanes. Let jurors ask questions and let the judge decide if the question is reasonable. In your example, one of the most glaring defects in our system is exposed, so TIA for that. We call on the wisdom of 12 people off the street to decide whether a person lives or dies or spends the rest of his life behind bars, yet we can't trust them to have enough sense to understand what's pertinent or prejudicial. THAT is what I'm saying the judge should be doing, to advise of those things while not stifling the need to know and understand.

BTW, I have to assume you haven't been to many NBA games. The seats are full of fans telling Stephen Curry how to improve his play. Your choice of the best is a case in the point I'm making though. You chose Stephen Curry as an example because he is the least reproachable player. If you wanted to reveal the truth, you would have chosen a much lesser one....but you didn't because you wanted to present only what could be least argued against. See?

No offense, but I'm lol'ing a little at your description of the highly trained and fully capable yada yada that exist in a system you tell me can't be infallible. Frankly, you're slipping me a little hogwash there. OF COURSE it can't be infallible, and neither can the actors in it, which is exactly the reason we shouldn't depend fully on them to be so. That's my point, or a good part of it. I'm seeking the truth, and you're giving me the rosy part of the truth you want me to have. while conveniently forgetting to tell me about the thorns.

So let's talk about those extensive rules. A woman has been raped and murdered. A cop illegally enters a home without cause and finds a video of a perp committing the act. It's on tape, open and shut. OOPS, can't allow that evidence, it was illegally obtained. Extensive rules don't impress me. Rules serve their purpose, but my point is that they sometimes serve the purpose wrongly (don't waste time destructing that off-the-cuff example to invalidate the valid point).

Hope that helps answer your questions.
I'm going to let you be the judge. Har har.
 
judge gives jury instructions that favor trump: “well he had to”


Judge gives jury instructions that favor the prosecution: “mistrial! Mistrial! Corrupt!”

Maga trying to prove trial is rigged

guy fail GIF
heelmanwilm trying to prove only MAGA is biased.
 
Think about what you are saying though. Jurors are drawn randomly from voter and motor rolls in most counties. That means you get the really smart and the really challenged. There is no way to sort them out and only get the jurors who would ask really insightful questions that are relevant to the trial. Allowing such a scenario might be great if you were on the jury, but consider some of the things posted here and the things those posters would ask in any given trial.

Your criticism of lawyers as to exploitation and control of the system is appropriate. But trusting jurors to "fix" the lawyers in a trial isn't gonna get there. It's the stupid juries returning stupid verdicts that enable lawyers to get some of the mindboggling results that we hear about. These are the same people who vote for goodness sake.
lol, don't get carried away. I only asked if jurors were allowed to ask questions, and then argued that they should be. But now I have to chuckle a bit, because as hard as I try to suggest how allowing juries to become more informed would be helpful, you argue against that by pointing out that the damage is done by 'stupid juries returning stupid verdicts'.

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Meanwhile, other world events continue. When you have people like this behind you, how can you not question your position?

there are degrees of hypocrisy that deserve nothing less than a good nuking.
 
I disagree. The mileage that the Trump campaign will get out of a guilty verdict is better than all the money in the world for advertising. Most people (according to polls) already believe the indictments are politically motivated. A guilty verdict allows Trump to use that against Biden. I’m telling you, while I believe his defense team is working to get the jury hung or an acquittal, they’re not overly worried about a guilty verdict. Call it a blessing in disguise.
I think the judge was indicating that a guilty verdict would net Trump some jail time. If so, win or lose I'll be proud to say that I voted for the man in the striped outfit and to tell people that I voted for a convicted felon as the lesser criminal.
 
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Like when he instructed them that cohen is an accomplice and his testimony should be treated as such. That favors the defense imo.
correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the term 'accomplice' connote having a partner in crime? Not sure how that would be helpful to the defense.
 
I disagree. The mileage that the Trump campaign will get out of a guilty verdict is better than all the money in the world for advertising. Most people (according to polls) already believe the indictments are politically motivated. A guilty verdict allows Trump to use that against Biden. I’m telling you, while I believe his defense team is working to get the jury hung or an acquittal, they’re not overly worried about a guilty verdict. Call it a blessing in disguise.
lol i don’t know about all that.
 
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Even though the outcome was just a formality, I’m of a different opinion regarding the effect this conviction will have on the election. Even when it’s overturned the damage will have been done. A sad day for Democracy.
 
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Even though the outcome was just a formality, I’m of a different opinion regarding the effect this conviction will have on the election. Even when it’s overturned the damage will have been done. A sad day for Democracy.

You think Trump loses? lol. If there was any question in my mind, it was removed this afternoon. This is good for Trump’s chances. No doubt
 
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Is there any shred of a doubt that our justice system has been politically compromised?
no, but I would have said that even if he had been found not guilty. The people telling us our democracy is in jeopardy have gone beyond just jeopardizing our democracy.
 
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He's laughing all the way to the bank. Can you begin to imagine the money this will raise for him?
Wait... so, now that they found him guilty... you're suggesting that Trump wanted to be found guilty--- of the crime(s) of 34 counts of falsifying records--- all along so as to improve his chances of winning an election and help him raise money for the campaign? This is going the way he planned?
 
Wait... so, now that they found him guilty... you're suggesting that Trump wanted to be found guilty--- of the crime(s) of 34 counts of falsifying records--- all along so as to improve his chances of winning an election and help him raise money for the campaign? This is going the way he planned?
wait, so you're saying that all the king's horses and all the king's men, could not put Humpty together again? I bet the Cheshire Cat is getting a grin out of that one.
 
Not sure what the point of appealing will be. He'll get 30 hours of community service and he'll be able to do that at a campaign stop. Use his conviction to raise money and save his campaign legal expenses.
 
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Of all days, I can't believe today is the day I was at work on set and the only screens we were watching were playback monitors. Then someone received the news in a text message, shared the news with us, and the whole place erupted in celebration. God, I love my job and all the smart, sensible people I work with.
 
Not sure what the point of appealing will be. He'll get 30 hours of community service and he'll be able to do that at a campaign stop. Use his conviction to raise money and save his campaign legal expenses.
Yea I think at worst he gets community service and he’ll use it to make money. His ego will make him appeal though. The first paparazzi to get the shot of him doing service will be an instant
Millionaire.
 
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